Official Marths June Tier Placement Discussion - Updated 4/9/09!

Darxmarth23 · Mar 7, 2009

Link to original post: [drupal=1231]Marths Placement In June Tier List ?[/drupal]
Marths Tier Placement In June - Official Discussion!

Go to the latest page for the latest posts. This OP is very long. But keep reading if you want to read the OP and/or its updates!

Well, I'll make this short and sweet. Will Marth's tier placement rise or fall in the June tier list? We know that his meta game hasn't developed much since the last tier list, but we do know that some other characters has. How much will that effect his tier placement?

I know that its early to make guesses, but state what you think now. As we get more in-depth with this, we can start some nice debates!

My projection: Marth will stay where he.

Also: Get Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon when it comes to a store near you.

3/9/09
So far we have been debating and we have gotten some very nice predictions, and we are going more in-depth with this thread.

We have an interesting post by Pierce7d:

Pierce7d said:
You guys are actually missing the lovely thing that's happening here.

Marth's three worst match-ups are Snake, MK, D3. Before, these were the top three characters in the game. Marth was lower on the tier list.

Then, certain characters moved up. Marth had an advantage on these characters, so he moved up.

Now, outta nowhere, Wario, Diddy, Olimar, and ZSS are all moving up. Marth wins against all of these characters, as well as Falco and G&W. In fact, Marth has a better match-up against every single character I listed in this paragraph than MK does. What does this mean? Marth will either maintain, or move up.

We might not have changed, but the Metagame around us changed, and now Wario and Diddy can help take out MK. Falco, Olimar, Diddy, and ZSS can help take down Snake. Marth's will have easier brackets.

For instance, I'm going to start placing better, because ADHD popped up in my region out of nowhere. Now, instead of fighting that MK or Snake that I would have a disadvantage against, I get to fight Diddy and advance another round. On top of this, Marth already has the tools to fight MK, and goes almost even with him with perfect play.

In today's Metagame, Marth is even more valuable than ever before. Sometimes, fighting 2 or 3 MKs consecutively could tire a Marth out, having to adjust to different styles, and playing perfectly every round. Now, with new characters entering the fray, and Marth having so many positive match-ups, Marth will be a powerful tool.

4/7/09

Another interesting post in this thread. This time by Shaya:

Shaya said:
D3 is probably getting smaller, while Snake is probably not.

Yes, there is a stigma about Marth.
And when it comes to Wario... maybe he'll be like the Melee Fox (everyone has a chaingrab/massive combos on him) but still be seen as "one of" the best.
I read someone people think Marth will go to 4th... I doubt this very much.

While Marth may do better against everyone whos moving up, Metaknight is still at the top, and overall dominates Marth and reduces his viability as a competitive character.

Whilst I hear/read that people using LOW TIERS (Pokemon Trainer for example) are taking matches/sets off of GOOD Metaknight users, it's rare I hear Marth doing much of that at all (at least if to compare as a ratio of how many more Marth mains there are compared to PT ones). It's such a depressing thing.

4/9/09

Emblem Lord

Emblem Lord said:
Pretty much every character has hit their ceiling. The top ten won't change and the top two characters MK and Snake aren't going anywhere. All of this is pointless. When you lose to the best characters there isn't much left to say.

Marth is great overall, but...you guys know the deal.

ph1lny3

Originally Posted by ph1lny3
I'd say solidly 5th-ish. I've seen that some aspects of his have room to grow, and the problem with going only with character theory is that this only works in a perfect world. There will always be character bias, there will always be specifics, and most of all, there will be adaptation. The last reason alone is probably the main reason why D3, G&W, and falco (more or less) have been seeing just a little bit of decay, while marth, snake (with some improved methods) and newer scene characters have been doing well, paper theory doesn't always count the human element, and as much as they try, you will always get some deviation.
Tourney play looks at the human aspect more, which is really who plays the game, which is why it's hard to pinpoint game theory, since we don't have an established control per se (like Rybka or Deep Blue for chess), and we don't have as much time to develop. Overall, yes, tourney based listings are sometimes faulty and can lead to problematic/misleading metagame thoughts, but it certainly is a good element to incorporate on top of theoretical view.

kr3wman · Mar 7, 2009

Darxmarth23 said:
Get Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon when it comes to a store near you.

I'm not liking it much. All the cool attack animations ruined by sucky 3d effects

bobson · Mar 7, 2009

I predict that Marth will either stay where he is, move up, or move down.

Albert. · Mar 7, 2009

I think he will stay where he is or go down.

You've probably seen me on the Marth boards... I main Marth.

but Diddy and Olimar, both have potential to go past Marth IMO

Albert. · Mar 7, 2009

bobson said:
I predict that Marth will either stay where he is, move up, or move down.

what brilliant insight!

>_< sarcasm

SSJ5Goku8932 · Mar 7, 2009

Gw may move down.Diddy and Marth are the only top tiers that may move up.
Wario is a possibility.

Jam Stunna · Mar 8, 2009

I think this thread is better suited for the Marth boards.

Remzi · Mar 8, 2009

Actually playing FE SD as we speak, loving it so far

I kill everything with Marth, I'm trying to focus on my other units but I can't, rofl.

Nefarious B · Mar 8, 2009

GaW will move down another couple, I see him getting down to 8th or so eventually. I actually see Marth getting 5th, Wario 6th, Diddy staying 7th, GaW, Olimar, ROB, ZSS 11th.

You heard it here first folks

Schwaumlaut · Mar 8, 2009

In Shadow Dragon, you absolutely MUST train at least one mage. No kidding, make sure Merric doesn't suck.

Shaya · Mar 8, 2009

I question why so many people think Marth will go up... Has so much changed since the last list? At the moment, I don't think so.

And considering it's 2-3 months away... WHY would you post this now ;\

M@v · Mar 8, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
Gw may move down.Diddy and Marth are the only top tiers that may move up.
Wario is a possibility.

infinites say hi.

BentoBox · Mar 8, 2009

You see so many pro Warios get infinited.

Mattsy · Mar 8, 2009

bobson said:
I predict that Marth will either stay where he is, move up, or move down.

This man knows.

He knows.

BBoyindo · Mar 8, 2009

He won't move more then one spot i think. He didn't get a lot better, nor did other characters that can move him down.
I think we should discuss this like a week before the list is released, now is a bit too early.

The_Blue_Bomber · Mar 8, 2009

It seems kinda early to be discussing this... But anyways...

Nothing much has happened since the last list, if we continue this way then we shouldn't move up or down, but it really depends on how the rest of Top Tier is going. If we are going to move it will probably be down, but we most likely wont move.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Mar 8, 2009

He is great defensively and offense too. He may move up because of GW moving down. Wario is probaly never going to get grabbed, so infinites do not really affect him as much.

Darxmarth23 · Mar 8, 2009

I'll be posting some of my analysis in the OP soon.

Please keep the spam down.

ZHMT · Mar 8, 2009

Marth goes down, Diddy goes up. Gnw may drop below Marth causing Marth to stay 6th.

Just some guesses.

Freezewish · Mar 8, 2009

Wario and Diddy will probably be higher than marth next tier list.

It may look something like:

S Tier
Mk
Snake

A tier
Falco
Diddy
D3
Wario
Marth
GnW

Just my two cents.

ZHMT · Mar 8, 2009

Thats definitely a possibility...

Freezewish · Mar 8, 2009

Diddy is too good.

And Wario is a B****.

So unless some big AT is discovered that significantly improves Marth's gameplay, he'll be overtaken by those two next tier list.

Darxmarth23 · Mar 8, 2009

Some people say that falco and snake will switch spots. I assume diddy will go up and beyond marth, but not wario. A lot of the other boards have been finding more grab release and air release stuff on wario. I think he will stay the same.

Inle~Orichas · Mar 8, 2009

I don't think its really possible to speculate what changes in the meta-game for other characters will have an effect.

Just because a AT is discovered, or a counter to one is found, doesn't mean that every player who mains the affected character will immediately discover that a tactic does or does not work. It's possible that some discoveries made months ago are still coming into affect today.

There is a huge time-lag between initial discovery and mass implication, resulting in inaccurate predictions. If I had to make a guess, I would say that Marth will stay where he is for the June Tier List, but go down one step for the one after that.
(Although, to seem optimistic, I'd also wager that he may even go UP one slot for this list, based on the trends I've posted here)

Freezewish · Mar 8, 2009

Darxmarth23 said:
Some people say that falco and snake will switch spots. I assume diddy will go up and beyond marth, but not wario. A lot of the other boards have been finding more grab release and air release stuff on wario. I think he will stay the same.

I dont see snake dropping or rising. He is the second best character in brawl.

And those grab release discoveries havent stopped warios from placing well in tourney. =/

magikguy · Mar 8, 2009

bobson said:
I predict that Marth will either stay where he is, move up, or move down.

Good Stuff

ChaosKnight · Mar 8, 2009

just add onemore spot to D3 and marth and that will be the new tier list

and diddy will be under marth

so

D3 Marth Diddy

DJMirror · Mar 8, 2009

ehh i thought marth was going to be drop from high tier

Tennet · Mar 8, 2009

At this rate stay or go down.

Nefarious B · Mar 8, 2009

I can't see Falco moving over Snake, Falco looks great on paper but he hasn't been winning tournies like Snakes have.

Warios have been winning tournies despite grab release shenanigans, so I can only see him moving up since grab releases were known before the last tier list.

DDD is too simple, people have figured him out, and his hole against MK is bad news. He'll drop a spot as Diddy moves in.

GaW is even more simple, and he has bad matchups against the top 2 so he will remain used as a CP against some characters but GaW mains wont be winning anything. He'll end up at 7th, maybe as low as 9th.

e__ · Mar 8, 2009

The last list came out 2 months ago. The new list comes out in 3 months. We aren't even half way through the development period. Why talk about it?

ZHMT · Mar 8, 2009

ChaosKnight said:
just add onemore spot to D3 and marth and that will be the new tier list

and diddy will be under marth

so

D3 Marth Diddy

I seriously think Diddy will be above Marth in the longrun. If not next update, but the one after.

Shaya · Mar 8, 2009

Falco's "paper" tells me that he shouldn't be 3rd.
Falcos can't beat Ice Climbers.

In terms of matchups (against competitive characters) a more likely tier list would be:
MK, Snake, Diddy, Marth, (Falco, D3, G&W), Wario

the last 4 all have hard counters. I bungled the 'three' because they're almost a scissors, paper, rock situation with the characters above them.

But facts show that Marth isn't -that great-, in terms of a best of three set, Marth has significant disadvantages against many of the top tier who outshine him in counter pick ability, and can easily hold their own on neutrals.

Marth will probably never be able to "out tier" MK, Snake or D3 (unless something 'big' happens).

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Mar 8, 2009

kr3wman said:
I'm not liking it much. All the cool attack animations ruined by sucky 3d effects

No it's like my favorite game right now, it's great. Caeda is amazing.

And I think Marth should be like 5th or 4th or something. Like MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, G&W, D3, Wario or something like that. If Wario didn't have those **** grab releases he'd be 3rd though, and he may move up to like 4th or 5th idk.

Darxmarth23 · Mar 8, 2009

I think that falco will stay as third. The 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th spots will be mixed up though.

I'm debating right now whether diddy will be above or below marth.

Remzi · Mar 8, 2009

S.O.L.I.D. said:
No it's like my favorite game right now, it's great. Caeda is amazing.

Yea dude, Marth is obv my favorite unit.

I also like Caeda, Caesar, Frey, Cain, Ogma, and Merric.

This game is amazing

Pr0phetic · Mar 8, 2009

Shaya said:
Falco's "paper" tells me that he shouldn't be 3rd.
Falcos can't beat Ice Climbers.

In terms of matchups (against competitive characters) a more likely tier list would be:
MK, Snake, Diddy, Marth, (Falco, D3, G&W), Wario

the last 4 all have hard counters. I bungled the 'three' because they're almost a scissors, paper, rock situation with the characters above them.

But facts show that Marth isn't -that great-, in terms of a best of three set, Marth has significant disadvantages against many of the top tier who outshine him in counter pick ability, and can easily hold their own on neutrals.

Marth will probably never be able to "out tier" MK, Snake or D3 (unless something 'big' happens).

This was my idea for the tier, just better explained and placed. So basically I think it will be:

1. MK
2. Snake
3. D3/Falco
4. Falco/D3
5. Marth/Diddy
6. Diddy/Marth
7. Game N Watch
8. Wario
9. Donkey Kong*
10. Olimar*

* - Personal preference for now after what I've seen in a tourney today.
/ - Can change depending on the progression in the months to come.

OmegaXF · Mar 8, 2009

Marth will go down if other characters develop.

Thunder Of Zeus · Mar 8, 2009

i see G&W over marth as well as diddy.
5: G&W
6: Diddy
7: Marth

600th post in the marth boards. oh yes.

ShadowPhoenix951 · Mar 8, 2009

G&W... over Marth and Diddy? No. G&W has hard counters in the form of Snake and Marth, while Marth's worst matchup is 40/60.

Official Marths June Tier Placement Discussion - Updated 4/9/09!

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