all info on falcons Bair lock>forced standup

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Falcons Bair can lock>force a standup.

Sweet Bair locks up to: 20% (meaning after 20%, a Bair who would lock, will simply send the opponent flying.)

Non-sweetspotted Bair locks up to: 51%

This means a Non sweetspotted Bair lock at 51%>falcon punch = guaranteed KO.

The lock>FP idea was inspired by Z1gma, though his was with an Uair causing the lock.

The sweetspotted Bair only locks an opponent up to 1% higher than an Uair could, but a non-sweetspotted Bair can lock the opponent up to 32% higher than a Uair could (meaning this lock can net you a guaranteed KO).

Combo's:

Sweetspotted Bair lock>forced standup combo's:
(SB = SweetBair)

SB>Forced standup>Falcon punch (inspired by Z1gma) (AKA the rising eagle combo)
SB>Forced standup>Sweet knee
SB>Forced standup>Ftilt
SB>Forced standup>Dtilt
SB>Forced standup>Utilt
SB>Forced standup>Bair (sweetspotted or not)
SB>Forced standup>FK
SB>Forced standup>RB
SB>Forced standup>Dair
SB>Forced standup>Uair
SB>Forced standup>Dsmash
SB>Forced standup>Fsmash
SB>Forced standup>Usmash
SB>Forced standup>Nair

Non-Sweetspotted Bair lock>forced standup combo's (sets up for guaranteed kill combo's at 51% or a bit lower (around 40%).

SB>Forced standup>Falcon punch (inspired by Z1gma) (AKA the rising eagle (kill) combo)
SB>Forced standup>Sweet knee
SB>Forced standup>Ftilt
SB>Forced standup>Dtilt
SB>Forced standup>Utilt
SB>Forced standup>Bair (sweetspotted or not)
SB>Forced standup>FK
SB>Forced standup>RB
SB>Forced standup>Dair
SB>Forced standup>Dair>Knee (AKA the ToKnee combo)
SB>Forced standup>Uair
SB>Forced standup>Dsmash
SB>Forced standup>Fsmash
SB>Forced standup>Usmash
SB>Forced standup>Nair

*You can also: SB>Forced standup>Dair>Nair/Uair/Bair (in short, all moves the Dair combo's into) But the sweet knee would be the best follow up, damage and knockback wise.

I have not yet been able to lock the opponent multiple times using the (non) sweetspotted Bair lock, but it might be possible.

Again, my apologies to Z1gma and everyone who defended his discovery, as I was misinformed by the OP of the thread discussing it, and that led to me not believing it.
So, I apologize.
But Without me not believing it, the rising eagle combo would't have been born, and the Bair lock wouldve stayed undiscovered

so its like, my wrong created a very nice other lock>forced standup + possibilities.

Update:
Here is the vid showing the rising eagle (kill) combo, the pheonix combo, the sweet sweet combo and the ToKnee combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjX1Iq3e5BM

(all discovered by me.

)

Update2:
We can:

(Non) sweetspot Bair lock>Rising Uair lock FF>angled down tilt lock>sweet knee/charced Fsmash etc. :D (the Ftilt has to be angled down as far as I tested, as it seems to come out faster as a normal/angled up Ftilt, and the timing for this is really strict >.<) (lets call this the 'all out lock', as falcon uses quite some different moves to keep the opponent locked

)

I will get a vid of this up tommorrow

.

Also, The Non sweetspotted Bair lock>Rising Uair lock>Rising Uair lock doesnt work >.< As the second rising Uair will connect when the opponent has more damage than on wich the uair can lock. (even when one starts this combo on 0%, including the Dthrow/other setup to get the opponent to lay on the floor.)

And, Uair lock>Rising Uair lock works too.
(Wich you can end with a sweet knee/charged Fsmash etc., falcon punch isn't inescapable after an Uair lock>Rising Uair lock as far as I tested, though.).

Update3:
Here is a video showing (some of) the combinations of falcons moves that lock (Uair, Bair and Ftilt) one can use after one another and still keep the opponent locked + force a standup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0laca7JtZY

I named the different lock combinations after us (Z1gma, me and face), may one of you (Z1gma and/or face) not like a name, please tell me, so it can be changed to your liking.

The names are (+ said lock)

Bair lock>Ftilt lock>Ftilt lock = faceknee lock (lol, this name is too good imo)
Uair lock>Ftilt lock>Ftilt lock = Z1gface lock
Bair lock>(rising) Uair lock = Z1gknee lock
Bair lock>(rising) Uair lock>(angled down) Ftilt lock = All out lock.

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

I still think you should call it the "Morning Darling Combo"
(bair lock to paunch)

just for the lulz

Face124 · Mar 8, 2009

51%. Wow lol. Nice work. Something I think should be tested, can the tilt lock combo into this? Very unlikely, but something to investigate nevertheless. To anyone who does it: Try f-tilt tilted upwards on biggys, it has IASA frames and has super little ending lag.

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 8, 2009

You gonna make a vid? Otherwise, I can do the honors for you, should I figure this stuff out and recreate it.

And...

lol to 51% Thats, easily paunch territory. If not, Stomp > Knee territory.

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
You gonna make a vid? Otherwise, I can do the honors for you, should I figure this stuff out and recreate it.

And...

lol to 51% Thats, easily paunch territory. If not, Stomp > Knee territory.

Yes, like I mentioned, it combos into falcon punch and stomp>knee ^_^

I will make a vid, and upload it later tonight.

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

do you have to b reverse the paunch? i assumed so since its a bair

__V · Mar 8, 2009

Vids pl0x.

Nidtendofreak · Mar 8, 2009

........

*jawdrop*

This is awesome. Seriously. A possible way to KO opponents at earlier %s with Falcon....

@Player: I would assume you could DI pass them as you hit.....vids would help though.

Falcon for not bottom of bottom tier!

Ayaz18 · Mar 8, 2009

nahh this combo should be named in the simplest manner:

"GG combo"

I win

but yeah we have no TWO threads with the SAME **** QUESTION:how will we get an opponent to not tech?

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
........

*jawdrop*

This is awesome. Seriously. A possible way to KO opponents at earlier %s with Falcon....

@Player: I would assume you could DI pass them as you hit.....vids would help though.

Falcon for not bottom of bottom tier!

yeah but if you DI past, and if you had locked to the end of the stage.... b reversed would definitely kill

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Player-3 said:
do you have to b reverse the paunch? i assumed so since its a bair

Nah, One either has to buffer turnaround>falcon punch, or hit with the Bair while facing the opponent. Reversed falcon punch is too slow.

Update:
Here is the vid showing the rising eagle (kill) combo, the pheonix combo, the sweet sweet combo and the ToKnee combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjX1Iq3e5BM

(all discovered by me.

)

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Nah, One either has to buffer turnaround>falcon punch, or hit with the Bair while facing the opponent. Reversed falcon punch is too slow.

Update:
Here is the vid showing the rising eagle (kill) combo, the pheonix combo, the sweet sweet combo and the ToKnee combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjX1Iq3e5BM

(all discovered by me.)

nice vid.

i said B reverse, as in like.... b reverse, or is that only in the air

and on smaller characters wouldnt it be harder to land the bair lock while facing them? so it would be a good idea to buff turn > punch.... unless the punches hitbox sends them backwards if their behind you

Z1GMA · Mar 8, 2009

Very cool, TKONTK. And nice vid.

The most practical name for the "SB>Forced standup>FP" would be:
"Garanteed pawnch combo" :lick:

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

What's important now is to find effective ways of setting this up..
Unless we can do that, this stuff is worthless ;/

You are a creative guy, TKOTNK. Go find a garanteed set up, now. lulz

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Player-3 said:
nice vid.

i said B reverse, as in like.... b reverse, or is that only in the air

and on smaller characters wouldnt it be harder to land the bair lock while facing them? so it would be a good idea to buff turn > punch.... unless the punches hitbox sends them backwards if their behind you

Hhmm, I see. I am pretty sure b reverse is called buffering on the ground.
And thanks.

RebazTalei · Mar 8, 2009

i might aply this in my playstyle, i have to test it out on the best players, if it actually works i'm gonna asure you, you'l be seeing it in tourney matches. good job man. definatly keep up the good work.

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Z1GMA said:
Very cool, TKONTK. And nice vid.

The most practical name for the "SB>Forced standup>FP" would be:
"Garanteed pawnch combo"

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

What's important now is to find effective ways of setting this up..
Unless we can do that, this stuff is worthless ;/

You are a creative guy, TKOTNK. Go find a garanteed set up, now. lulz

I am making a list of percentage at wich characters land on a platform above falcon (if any) immediatly after a Dthrow. (making them teching it very unlikely).

This can be followed up a sweet knee, or a (non) sweetspotted Bair lock/Uair lock>falcon punch/sweet knee, if the percentages of them falling on the platform immediatly and the locks are around the same percentage.

I dunno, its a step in the good direction I guess.

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I am making a list of percentage at wich characters land on a platform above falcon (if any) immediatly after a Dthrow. (making them teching it very unlikely).

This can be followed up a sweet knee, or a (non) sweetspotted Bair lock/Uair lock>falcon punch/sweet knee, if the percentages of them falling on the platform immediatly and the locks are around the same percentage.

I dunno, its a step in the good direction I guess.

what about uthrow =\

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 8, 2009

I pulled it off.

Now this is a way to leave the falcon boards, TKONTK.

You deserve a YESZ!

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Player-3 said:
what about uthrow =\

It sends the opponent flying too high too immediatly land on a platform, even at 0%. (same with raptor boost).

Maybe the top platform on battlefield..but that would be too situational (as the opponent would have to be in the area under the top platform of battlefield and have like 0% damage, or like from 0-10.)

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 8, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
It sends the opponent flying too high too immediatly land on a platform, even at 0%. (same with raptor boost).

Maybe the top platform on battlefield..but that would be too situational (as the opponent would have to be in the area under the top platform of battlefield and have like 0% damage, or like from 0-10.)

I noticed that dthrow DIed towards falcon or up will put them flat on their backs on the lower platforms of BF at very low percents.

Kishin · Mar 8, 2009

Wow, you're awesome TKONTK...

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
I noticed that dthrow DIed towards falcon or up will put them flat on their backs on the lower platforms of BF at very low percents.

Yes, I noticed that too. The list I am working on will include the opponents DI and how it influences said situation.
Thanks for your contribution.

You guys are making it hard to leave >.<

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 8, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Yes, I noticed that too. The list I am working on will include the opponents DI and how it influences said situation.
Thanks for your contribution.

You guys are making it hard to leave >.<

You shouldn't.
You really shouldn't...

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Meh, I dunno man. Even as This board is 'my home' here on smashboards, I feel like I need to stop posting here for awhile..

And I promised to leave, and I'm a man of my word (at least, I thought I was >.<)

On topic:

When you (Non) sweetspot Bair lock an opponent, you can immediatly Ftilt afterwards, extending the lock, and end it with a sweet knee or whatever (falcon punch does not make an inescapable ending for this combo though.)

I am just adding 1 and 1 here, Face124 discovered the Ftilts tilt locking ability. And together with the Bairs Bair lock ability I discovered, we can make the Ftilt lock even more effective, or at least, we have something that 'combo's into' a Ftilt lock.

Player-3 · Mar 8, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Meh, I dunno man. Even as This board is 'my home' here on smashboards, I feel like I need to stop posting here for awhile..

And I promised to leave, and I'm a man of my word (at least, I thought I was >.<)

On topic:

When you (Non) sweetspot Bair lock an opponent, you can immediatly Ftilt afterwards, extending the lock, and end it with a sweet knee or whatever (falcon punch does not make an inescapable ending for this combo though.)

I am just adding 1 and 1 here, Face124 discovered the Ftilts tilt locking ability. And together with the Bairs Bair lock ability I discovered, we can make the Ftilt lock even more effective, or at least, we have something that 'combo's into' a Ftilt lock.

does ftilt or bair do more damage? because you could combine the two moves to carry across stage for maximum kill potential

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Player-3 said:
does ftilt or bair do more damage? because you could combine the two moves to carry across stage for maximum kill potential

If I recall correctly, one cannot lock an opponent more than 2-3 times with a Ftilt. And as far as I tested a Bair lock>Ftilt lock sends the opponent too far away to get another Ftilt lock in.

But if this works, we could Bair lock>Ftilt lock>Ftilt lock(>Ftilt lock)>sweet knee = probably a KO. Or it at least sets us up for some edgeguarding.

Otherwise, a Bair lock>Ftilt lock>sweet knee will ahve to do. Wich will probably send the opponent flying offstage, too.

Also, Non sweetspotted Bair does: 8% damage

Sweetspotted Bair does: 14% damage

and Ftilt does: 10% damage.

Keep in mind one probably cannot lock an opponent with a (non) sweetspotted Bair after you have already locked said opponent with a (non) sweet spotted Bair.

Nidtendofreak · Mar 8, 2009

What can you force out of an Ftilt lock?

Would Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow -> sourspot Bair lock -> Ftilt lock -> ftilt lock -> grab during forced standup -> pummel -> Dthrow -> sourspot bair lock -> Falcon Paunch actually work? O_o

I know it sounds crazy, but it just popped into my head right now. I'm not even sure how much damage that would do.....I may be daydreaming, but if I'm not....

EDIT: Knee's new post right before mine sounds like it would, but I'll leave it up just in case.

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
What can you force out of an Ftilt lock?

Would Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow -> sourspot Bair lock -> Ftilt lock -> ftilt lock -> grab during forced standup -> pummel -> Dthrow -> sourspot bair lock -> Falcon Paunch actually work? O_o

I know it sounds crazy, but it just popped into my head right now. I'm not even sure how much damage that would do.....I may be daydreaming, but if I'm not....

EDIT: Knee's new post right before mine sounds like it would, but I'll leave it up just in case.

In theory that can work, BUT, keep in mind the opponent can easily escape between the Dthrow and the (non) sweetspotted Bair lock.

Getting the opponent in said position to lock them is already a subject of discussion to be able to do once. Let alone three times in a row. Offcourse, no offense intended.

Nidtendofreak · Mar 8, 2009

I know it was a crazy idea right off the bat. Like I said, it had just popped into my head. I guess it could work if the opponent didn't know that was possible.

If anyone actually pulled that off in a real match, I would give them $100 once I get a job. XD

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
I know it was a crazy idea right off the bat. Like I said, it had just popped into my head. I guess it could work if the opponent didn't know that was possible.

If anyone actually pulled that off in a real match, I would give them $100 once I get a job. XD

Even people who don't know this is possible airdodge/tech/attack when they are/have been send flying.

But I agree that would be quite a show to witness, yes ^_^

Nidtendofreak · Mar 8, 2009

Hm....I have no way to test these things, but how plausible is grounded Dair -> NSBair (Non-Sweetspot) Lock?

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Hm....I have no way to test these things, but how plausible is grounded Dair -> NSBair (Non-Sweetspot) Lock?

Probably just as plausible as a Dthrow>(N)SBair lock. Maybe a little less plausible, as when the opponent is popped up into the air by the Dair, you can combo into a sweet knee anyway. Good thinking though.

I just thought, we could use this to punish missed techs from opponents who are hit by an aerial Dair (when they are in the opponent is in the air too), as missing a tech this way isnt very rare. But getting in this situation is rare, though :/

Also, maybe we can somehow footstool wario (so we somehow dont fly too high to FF and follow up without him beeing able to move) out of grab release>(N)SBair lock>regrab>repeat, Because one cannot tech a footstool 0.0?
Prolly not, though >.<

Skip2MaLoo · Mar 8, 2009

this is magically delicious. but was dair > knee always called toknee combo? I've been doing that for a while in melee o.o

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

Update2:
We can:

(Non) sweetspot Bair lock>Rising Uair lock FF>angled down Ftilt lock>sweet knee/charced Fsmash etc. :D (the Ftilt has to be angled down as far as I tested, as it seems to come out faster as a normal/angled up Ftilt, and the timing for this is really strict >.<)

I will get a vid of this up tommorrow

.

Also, The Non sweetspotted Bair lock>Rising Uair lock>Rising Uair lock doesnt work >.< As the second rising Uair will connect when the opponent has more damage than on wich the uair can lock. (even when one starts this combo on 0%, including the Dthrow/other setup to get the opponent to lay on the floor.)

Edit: Uair lock>Rising Uair lock works too.

(Wich you can end with a sweet knee/charged Fsmash etc., falcon punch isn't inescapable after an Uair lock>Rising Uair lock as far as I tested, though.).

And @ skip2maloo:
No, normally a Dair knee isnt called a ToKnee combo. A ToKnee combo =
(Non) sweetspotted Bair lock>Dair>Sweet knee.

Skip2MaLoo · Mar 8, 2009

this is magically delicious. but was dair > knee always called toknee combo? I've been doing that for a while in melee o.o or do you mean the entire bair lock to dair to knee is the toknee combo?

edit: using swf from my phone .. lol

but very useful. I knew bair could lock just didn't know any finishers besides dsmash because I don't know how to buffer a turn :-\ but its cool you could get out a punch.. that's tasty as snake would say

another edit: by using this before i only knew of the sweepspot so didnt really think of it to be useful

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 8, 2009

you can run forward and cstick back and just fly into them to get the non-sweetspot bair, and still be facing them. I believe that you can do this and autocancel as well, allowing for a guaranteed wake-up paunch.

As for ways to get them on the ground, dair a flying opponent, and then drop a bair on them to lock.

Another possibility.

Zeallyx · Mar 8, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
you can run forward and cstick back and just fly into them to get the non-sweetspot bair, and still be facing them. I believe that you can do this and autocancel as well, allowing for a guaranteed wake-up paunch.

As for ways to get them on the ground, dair a flying opponent, and then drop a bair on them to lock.

Another possibility.

@The first part of your post:
That is what I am doing in the vid showing my combo's ^_^

@second part of your post:
That is what I proposed, too ^_^ (a few posts back)

Mit · Mar 8, 2009

Wow, this shows how this board is WAY too quick to freak out about stuff they think won't work without even fully taking the time to understand it. The last thread on the uair lock was filled with like, 90% mindless negativity (I don't think I saw a single constructive thing said by Red-Blue, just kindergarten-level remarks about people's wording), and then BOOM, TKONTK discovers it does work, expounds upon it (like I originally said we'd probably be able to), and everyone's singing a different song now. -.- I'd be mad if I was F5Hazardousdoc. He really should be getting a lot of the credit from this.

Anyways, great find, I'm glad all the negativity didn't kill the topic altogether in the last thread. I'll have to try all this stuff out next time I play for real against some good opponents. I also need to learn how to footstool a lot more (so I can predict short hops from my opponent, footstool him, and try and do this combo).

Also, nothing against you TKONTK. And I think you should calm down on the whole leaving thing. This is the internet, and these are the Falcon boards. If the people who try and move it forward leave because of the people who do nothing but whine, that isn't going to help the problems here.

What we really need is more Falcon players with good input around here.

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 9, 2009

Mit said:
Wow, this shows how this board is WAY too quick to freak out about stuff they think won't work without even fully taking the time to understand it. The last thread on the uair lock was filled with like, 90% mindless negativity (I don't think I saw a single constructive thing said by Red-Blue, just kindergarten-level remarks about people's wording), and then BOOM, TKONTK discovers it does work, expounds upon it (like I originally said we'd probably be able to), and everyone's singing a different song now. -.- I'd be mad if I was F5Hazardousdoc. He really should be getting a lot of the credit from this.

Anyways, great find, I'm glad all the negativity didn't kill the topic altogether in the last thread. I'll have to try all this stuff out next time I play for real against some good opponents. I also need to learn how to footstool a lot more (so I can predict short hops from my opponent, footstool him, and try and do this combo).

Also, nothing against you TKONTK. And I think you should calm down on the whole leaving thing. This is the internet, and these are the Falcon boards. If the people who try and move it forward leave because of the people who do nothing but whine, that isn't going to help the problems here.

What we really need is more Falcon players with good input around here.

I like a good debate.

The bair method has it's merit's that being that you can lock to higher percents, but the uair method grants the fact that there's no worrying about the sweetspot zone, and is a tad easier to PAWNCH after too. The bair is a bit harder, but better for longer lasting lock.

Oh yeah and LOL I NEED TO PRACTICE THIS FOR TECH SKILL OMG. I can perform uair locks easily now, but sometimes I hit with the bair too early/late and get nothing/sweetspot.

Mit · Mar 9, 2009

I don't know, I'm not the best at AC'd uairs. I'm a nair guy when it comes to AC'ing. I always time uairs wrong and hit the ground before they come out. It seems to me like it'd be relatively easy to not sweetspot bair by running forwards at them and c-sticking the bair backwards (like in TKONTK's video). Atleast easier for me anyways.

all info on falcons Bair lock>forced standup

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