Lucario vs. Wario (3) EXPORT

Timbers · Mar 9, 2009

WARIO

Matchup:

45:55

What to avoid:

LordoftheMorning said:
Wario will pester you a LOT with Dairs (or at least some will) it's hard to punish. His aerials have deceptively low landing lag. It looks like you should be able to punish, but his sheild comes up way faster than you would think it would.

Timbers said:
Trying to kill a Wario without aura buff is incredibly f*cktarded. It's near impossible to actually land an fsmash on Wario due to aerial mobility, aggressive aerial properties, and punish game on a move like fsmash. With the aura buff, except to kill him around 140-150%, and without it, it's not uncommon for Wario to reach low 200s. Not being able to nab the kill on Wario before you lose a stock is infuriating.

Timbers said:
you don't want to stay above wario, Luc just does well at keeping from getting juggled by Wario. You don't actually want to stay above him. The uair will land the more chances you give him to land it, and at fresh it'll kill 100-120%. Keep him horizontal from you so that you can abuse fair and aurasphere. Wario does exceptionally well at keeping Luc trapped in his shield as well, so know to roll out ASAP if you can't get a utilt off.

Samuelson said:
I love Lucario's Bair but in this match it's not very good imo.

Wario can overwhelm Lucario and he can kill us pretty **** early AND it's hard for us to kill him. If we're forced to use Extreme Speed then Wario will most likely punish our landing lag with a fart or Uair...both those moves kill. It's hard for us to kill Wario with Fsmash because good Wario's are very campy and stay in the air for a while.

Straked said:
Lucario suffers a slight disadvantage because of Wario's strange moveset. To start out, this matchup is entriely stage dependant. Wario controls platforms, and due to Lucario not having an answer for this, it's bad for us. We don't have a counter to Wario's platform domination.
Wario can combo Lucario into some pretty crazy damage. You need to watch out for his nair, dair, uair, and fsmash. Waft can kill at ridiculously low percentages.

Timbers said:
I don't like fsmash in this matchup. Wario's airborne 90% of the time and gets in very close to punish any anticipated fsmashes. I feel like this match you need to be fast to be able to constantly move and protect yourself.

How to win:

Timbers said:
If it's a horizontal confrontation in the air, I much prefer fair over bair. Bair leaves too much room for punishment. As far as killers are concerned, AS and uair are my go-to moves.

I like AS and uair because of their dependable and safe nature. Wario lacks the range to punish aerial AS, as well as priority (save for bair) and uair has low lag, a surprisingly diverse hitbox, and keeps Wario away from you should you whiff. It's nice to keep in mind as it defeats Wario's dair rather well..

manhunter098 said:
The key to fighting Wario is entirely prediction. Our aerials have better range than Wario's, however since he is so agile in the air he can feint approaches very well and bait effectively, the trick is to know what he is trying to get you to do, and doing something he doesnt expect, try predicting when he is going to jump forward and jump right before he does with a f-air, you might see some results.

To win this matchup you cant really rely on your traditional defensive strengths, you have to be more offensive in your mindgames trying to essentially trick Wario into approaching at the same time you are.

Timbers said:
I sincerely believe the best thing Luc has in this match is anti-air with ftilt, utilt, fair, and I guess AS can be included.

Helpful tips:

PhantomX said:
Lucario Uptilt is a good, quick, gtfo me move if the Wario is right next to you.

Timbers said:
As far as utilt:
All of Wario's aerials have a substantial amount of lag on them as well and very little range, which makes utilt a very good anti-air move against the likes of nair and dair.

And for the record, utilt is amazing against any character that can't outspace it or are prone to juggling.

Straked said:
This match is entirely dependant on who gets first kill.
Aura Sphere in this matchup is essential, a fully charged one can wreck Wario. Always SH an Aura Sphere, or full hop, since he'll approach with an aerial. .

Stages:

PhantomX said:
I don't really recommend you take Wario to Japes. He can aircamp REALLY easily here, his bite functions like Kirby/D3s suction in the water (meaning you shoot off far before regaining control while Wario regains pretty quickly), his dair can stage spike through the stage, the ledges everywhere give him invincibility to abuse aerials or bite, etc.

PhantomX said:
Luigi's Mansion is like Wario's worst stage, lol. Everyone can abuse it more than he can, and the tiny platforms in the way all the time are lame. The pillars also force him to commit even longer to his moves. It's good for his running away, that's all.

Col. Stauffenberg said:
I'd rather play FD or Smashville as Lucario. Yoshi's seems to be too well suited for aircamping if Wario decides to go that route.

Straked said:
The best stages in this situation would have to be Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion, and Pictochat. These stages have limited platforms.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

:mad: · Mar 9, 2009

I like the idea of adding this, Timbers.
It organizes everything we've discussed so nothing gets overlooked.
Keep it up, man.

PhantomX · Mar 9, 2009

Holy amazing picture.

G-Beast · Mar 9, 2009

hopefully, i wont lose to Nix's wario anymore T.T

fonzi21 · May 11, 2009

One thing to add about Wario is that Lucario DOES have a release grab on him which if you do it right (which its pretty easy) it is a free F-smash on the aerial release grab. Another thing to add in for mind games is instead of doing an F-smash on the release grab change it up to a FH aura sphere because you know the Wario 90% of the time will instinctly jump ASAP after the release grab.

This can solve part of the killing problem, but it is ridiculously hard to get a grab on him. One way to do it is bait his approach and catch him with a pivot grab.

Timbers · May 11, 2009

we don't have a release grab on him lol.

maybe if you grab him out of his second jump but that's highly unlikely.

EDIT: and you don't need mindgames if a superior option is a legitimate combo. Brainpower doesn't get you out of lag/hitstun.

G-Beast · Sep 5, 2009

Feel free to infract me if you like Timbers(or any other mod) but i found out that we CAN force a jump release on Wario... but only if they struggle to get out....

D. Disciple · Sep 5, 2009

I Told People This And They Didn't Believe Me!

phi1ny3 · Sep 5, 2009

I wasn't aware of it, is it only possible if they used their second jump?

G-Beast · Sep 6, 2009

No, if you just grab them(grounded or otherwise) and they struggle to get out, they will jump release.

but yeah, i was playing against a CPU today who was wario, we were on FD and i pummled him a little too much and he jump released... i was like WTF!!! i went in training and confirmed that if they struggle to get out they will jump release... we have enough time to do our initial dash and usmash them

iRJi · Sep 6, 2009

G-Beast said:
No, if you just grab them(grounded or otherwise) and they struggle to get out, they will jump release.

but yeah, i was playing against a CPU today who was wario, we were on FD and i pummled him a little too much and he jump released... i was like WTF!!! i went in training and confirmed that if they struggle to get out they will jump release... we have enough time to do our initial dash and usmash them

Or nair, Or AS.

AS works best.

D. Disciple · Sep 6, 2009

Even works best right when they are at the edge of the stage since it will always be an air release. You can also get a fsmash, dsmash and uair on him too.

G-Beast · Sep 6, 2009

well.. usmash is really easy to do.. just do the initial dash as if you were going to foxtrot and usmash... i actually use it often when its called for.. not just for jump releasing wario

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 6, 2009

Nice to know we have a grab release, it's still going to be hard grabbing the guy. :/

Trela · Sep 6, 2009

I told Lee about the Grab Release thing yesterday during his set with Bassem at HOBO 18.

He was like no, but then I was like yeeeeaaaaaaah! It works :D

PhantomX · Sep 6, 2009

G-Beast said:
Feel free to infract me if you like Timbers(or any other mod) but i found out that we CAN force a jump release on Wario... but only if they struggle to get out....

This is true for every character, Wario players that are good will know about this by now. Also, if it depends on them doing something dumb, that's not forcing a grab release

Timbers · Sep 7, 2009

G-Beast said:
Feel free to infract me if you like Timbers(or any other mod) but i found out that we CAN force a jump release on Wario... but only if they struggle to get out....

that means we can't force it.

G-Beast · Sep 7, 2009

Timbers said:
that means we can't force it.

techically yeah, but if he struggles at all to get out of our pummels its a jump release, which can easily follow up to nair or usmash

phi1ny3 · Sep 8, 2009

So we're back to square one...
aka the only way you're going to force one is if you've caught them offstage or after they already used their second jump.

D. Disciple · Sep 8, 2009

I've done it without having them at the edge of the stage, or having Wario struggle out of my grab, and they didn't use their 2nd jump. Sooooo yeah...

G-Beast · Sep 8, 2009

a small slope would do that, or were you on a flat stage?

iRJi · Sep 9, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
So we're back to square one...
aka the only way you're going to force one is if you've caught them offstage or after they already used their second jump.

Actually, that's not true phil lol.

G-Beast · Sep 9, 2009

iRJi said:
Actually, that's not true phil lol.

elaborate please.... i would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter

iRJi · Sep 9, 2009

G-Beast said:
elaborate please.... i would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter

Mis read it, LOL. Ignore earlier Post. Didn't see the part where he said "Only way WE can force it"

Just to keep this in mind, Playing Wario on Stages where the floor is unstable or uneven is a good thing to do. For example, If you catch Wario in YI while you are on the middle slope and he is on the inside, it will force a jump break since he is not touching the floor. Little things like that people need to keep in mind, because it can change the shift of the match.

Waft-OLi · Dec 1, 2009

this is probably a little late but... if Wario hits jump when you have a grab on him that automatically becomes a grab release regardless if you pummel or not..

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