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Mario Matchup(Updated 06/29/09)

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gallax

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Mario



General Discussion

Mario has the ability to make life difficult for the chu. He has a cape that can reflect anything and even turn you around. He also has a fireball which is very much like our own but with some different properties that alow for better closer follow ups. Combine this with some good kill moves and a good momentum canceling moveset, this is a pretty tedious matchup.

Pika's Advantages

1. Speed
2. Range

Pika's Disadvantages

1. Mario has a reflector
2. Worse air game

Strategy for Winning

General Notes

Unlike some characters, we cannot cg mario. The best we can do is combo out of dthrow or fthrow. And the fthrow>usmash works only at less than ~15-20%. So don't expect a ton of damage from out of grab comboes. On the other hand, still try to grab him and get comboes in. Grabbing mario is a little tough, but possible.

Mario is a floaty character so when comboing the uair is best to start off with when in the air or when on the ground. You are going to want to use utilt when mario is at a higher percentage and you want to chase with a thunder. But, even though he is floaty, he can combo us with his utilt and uair. When he is utilting you immediately SDI up and away from him. He can utilt you to about 35-40% and then usmash/uair you. your nair can interrupt their uair comboes on you so be sure to use it whnever you are geting hit by the uair combo.

Ranges

Pikachu and Mario have about the same range
lets see who wins...

jab: Pikachu

ftilt: same
dtilt: Pikachu
Utilt: Same vertically, Pikachu has more horizontally

fsmash: Pikachu
usmash: Same
dsmash: Same

nair: Same
fair: Same
uair: hard to tell, gonna put it as same by visuals
dair: Pikachu
bair: Mario

Marios Cape

Mario's cape is his best asset in this matchup. It can reflect tjolts and even gimp us. He is one of the few who can gimp pika. Its basically a win situation for mario when trying to gimp pika. Even if he misses he won't get hurt and will stil recover so expect to see a cape near the edge. To survive you need to chage your style of recovery. The skullbash is very easily punished so use it sparingly.

His cape has a lot of weird properties. Argh @ the cape.

Mario Strategy

Spamming Fireballs and Follow-ups

When mario is approaching or playing defensive he can spam fireballs and catch you off guard by rollling behind you or stutter stepping a fsmash. Mario's love to bait your shield and then force you into an uncomfortable situation where you make a mistake. My first piece of advice is to learn to jump over fireballs and to shield only when necessary. The tjolt cancels the fireballs, but nothing else. Jumping over them and tjolting straight onto mario's head can be effective sometimes. You can also crawl under them and also dash. But you have to time it right.

Based on my mario experience, it is best not to roll around mario. Mario players love to roll and wait for the dsmash. This may sound trivial but when you are being bombarded by fireballs then mario gets behind you by rolling you are going to want to roll. Roll away from mario when he gets close. Never towards him. If you are cauhgt in a shield then you need to jump oos and dair or just dsmash yourself when the mario is ending his roll. Some marios will even predict you and spotdodge then fsmash you when you whiff your attack. This is why I recommend jupmping oos. Its harder to punish and easier to punish with.

Approaching and Spacing Mario

If the Maro isn't using fireball then approaching is a lot easier. Use your fair to poke at mario if in the air. It will eat through fireballs and good to combo if done right. But, when mario is using fireballs, you are going to have to approach. Some things to try are tjolting from above then folllow up with an aerial, QAC, or running in and pshielding then follow ups. If you try tjolting from the air it may hit mario of make him use his cape or shiled. If any of these happen then you have a window of opporitunity to react and get in. The QAC can go through fireballs, thats what I hear. You can also qac up and overthem and cancel it into an uair or whatever you want. It effectively gets youin close though. Just running in a shielding is not too good of an idea, but it works and sometimes its all we got to work with.

Getting Off the Ledge

Some mario's are really well at edgeguarding you. When you are hanging off the ledge the mario will wait to see what you are going to do then react accordingly, which is a result of their awesome bair. Whatever you do, do not blindly ledgedrop>jump onto the stage when mario is jumping all around on the stage. You will eat a bair. As pika, some things to try are ledge hopping a tjolt, airdodging onto the stage but near the edge, or qaing if you see an opening. Never roll onto the stage unless the mario has gone off stage. You will eat a fsmash or bair.

Mario's UpB

Mario's UpB is very similar to samus' UpB. It can get him out of combos and get annoying when you are trapped in it. It also gets annoying when he's recovering and you try edgeguard him but get hit by it. Just try your best to avoid it or bait it. Baiting the UpB is pretty easy if you can combo the mario in the air and then try and get an UpB from him. This is probably player specific though.


Notes About Mario's Moves

Mario's dair is like MK's tornado in that is racks up damage and it spins mario around. If get caught by his dair be sure to DI horizontally away and down a little away from mario. His fair can spike you so think twice when trying to recover with skullbash. His uair can combo and his bair is montrous for damage and spacing.

Mario has a good dsmash so this means never roll around mario. Let his do all the rolling and let him taste your dsmash. I can't tell you how important this is for you to win. DO NOT ROLL NEAR MARIO. His fsmash is one of his main killing moves which is also a great move for punishing the roll. His usmash has a ton of priority so do not try and challenge it. Just stay away from it. If you have to qac out of his zone of usmash.

Our Best Moves

Playin Mario can be tough. You do not want to get to close to mario but you want to be close enough so that the fireball wont be used that much. Pressure is the key. When pressuring, fsmash is awesome and so is dtilt. Fsmash racks up some pretty good damage so use it for spacing and do not think you have to save it for killing. If you hit with the fsmash it will knock mario into the air and then you can pressure him from underneath with uair and what not. Dtilt is a great move that comes out fast and still allows you to still be able to mario is you follow it up with a dash.

For killing the best thing move will be the usmash. Wait till the mario is getting ready to land from a fireball and run underneath him and punish. Other times its just recognizing when the mario isn't paying attention. Another good killmove that kill work is ff fair(land behind)>utilt>thunder. Wait till the mario gets to ~130% to try this since you need some hitstun so the mario won't cape the thunder.

Edgeguarding Mario

This can be a tough thing to do, but most mario's who momentum cancel well will save their second jump and cape for stalling. Your goal is to get a wall of thunder as far out as possible and try to know mario back and to use his second jump. If that misses then wait till the mario gets close and tjolt him. If that misses then grab the ledge before the mario use his upB and right when he is jumping. Make him miss the ledge and fall on the stage and punish with a ledgehopped move. Don't try to gimp with a nair unless you hit when he is getting ready or in the jump. You may get stage spike or just owned by his UpB.

Helpful Video's

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Overall Matchup

Dead Even. If not, in favor of mario.
 

Ussi

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Don't recover with Skull Bash.
I remember I did before... good times... good times.. I went straight to the KO zone. (I was against a nooby Mario so I didn't care lol)


Well, comboing Mario isn't hard. The biggest thing to avoid is Mario's sweetspot'd fsmash, that thing kills early. But Pikachu doesn't play with range and always gets up close. So Unless Mario baits Pikachu, i don't see Pikachu falling into it easily with his good evasive game. His SS Fsmash still kills well but at a later %.

Mario is has a beast juggling game with utilt, usmash, and uair. Utilt strings itself then follows with uair. But I believe Pikachu can nair (3 frames :D) before Mario hit's a 2nd uair/tilt. But I'm still unsure if its a true combo or not

EDIT: I read, that uair > uair is a true combo, seeing videos of it, it ***** ;o But You should be able to get out once he has to jump to uair you again.

Mario also has bair and dair, two pretty good aerials. Dair is his new Mario Tornado without any recovery benefit sadly (Mario needed it too). Nair is a sex kick. Fair spikes, but is to slow outside of that and has nasty after lag.

Also, Mario's Up B is a mini Dolphin Slash lacking only power and range.

Mario's jab > dsmash is pretty lethal too.

You have all your basic combos on Mario. I don't recall how good his nair is at combo interrupting but it's nothing like Luigi's. Mario is also can be gimp easily if you can knock him away after his 2nd jump, he probably won't come back. But Mario WILL be using fireballs and cape stalling/hitting you with the cape to stop you from gimping him. It works pretty well but if you can get around it, then Mario is pretty much done with that stock.

Mario can cape back tjolt. So Pikachu will have to approach. Tjolt can be aimed over fireballs and well keep Mario occupied with his cape or it can just be an annoyance for when Mario has to land. But either way, Pikachu has to approach.

I don't see Mario gimping Pikachu. I don't know what FLUDD does to it, but I hear it extends the hitlag of a move so Probably should recover low/after he uses FLUDD. (Best probably is QA Up/Up Diagionally then Diagonal down for a QAC if he is hogging the ledge)

Since Mario lacks range outside of fsmash, I see this tilting towards Pikachu's favor to at least 55/45.

Mario is the one everyone tests their killing % on so we should all know when he dies :laugh:

I haven't played a Mario in so long though sadly. They are pretty rare to come across.
 

DanGR

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Mario is has a beast juggling game with utilt, usmash, and uair. Utilt strings itself then follows with uair. But I believe Pikachu can nair (3 frames :D) before Mario hit's a 2nd uair/tilt. But I'm still unsure if its a true combo or not
It's not a true combo on Pikachu. He can DI and nair to to get out early. Watch out for baits though or you'll probably get upsmashed because of how much lag nair has.

I don't see Mario gimping Pikachu. I don't know what FLUDD does to it, but I hear it extends the hitlag of a move so Probably should recover low/after he uses FLUDD. (Best probably is QA Up/Up Diagionally then Diagonal down for a QAC if he is hogging the ledge)
It's not terribly difficult to gimp Pikachu. It can be difficult depending on where he's recovering from, but not impossible. He can't use skull bash to recover so that leaves upb. It can be caped as well, so the Pikachu player just has to make sure he doesn't get too predictable. FLUDD can help a bit as well.
 

Matador

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I mostly agree with Ussi, though I have things to add.

Mario's Usmash has a ton of priority, and will beat all of Pika's aerial approaches. Mario has very fast aerials much like Pika, so he'll be living pretty long, especially since thunder is a little less useful (can be caped. Don't worry, I said a LITTLE less XD) and his other KO options won't kill below 120% usually. QA runs right through fireballs, so QAC is an excellent approach method.

Skullbash used intelligently on recovery is good if used sparingly. QA probably won't be caped if you stay unpredictable, but be sure to land/grab the ledge. If you're caught freefalling, you could be Fludded offstage. Also...don't QA into Mario as you recover. It's not smart. Ussi hit the nail on the head in regards to gimping Mario; hit him after his second jump. Beware that Mario's meteor could potentially gimp you if you aren't watching for it. His Fair is slow and stupid, but the range and priority is impressive.

I have this down as even. They both have something over the other, be it recovery, gimping or approach. Lemme know if I was wrong about anything regarding Pika
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
*Looks on on youtube with Boss vs azen back in april, with boss fludd/cape/spike finisher on Azen with crowd going " GOOD ***** lol. Yes what a sexy finisher... now if only this dam comp knew how to to copy and paste.... (most marios will know what im talking about lol)
 

Judge Judy

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I don't see Mario gimping Pikachu. I don't know what FLUDD does to it, but I hear it extends the hitlag of a move so Probably should recover low/after he uses FLUDD. (Best probably is QA Up/Up Diagionally then Diagonal down for a QAC if he is hogging the ledge)
What FLUDD does to QA is it manipulates its momentum; basically, depending on how the FLUDD is aimed you can lose some control over QA's trajectory (it won't be a lot but it can cause you to miss ledge sweetspots and comfortable landings). As far as FIHL, it mainly works well on Pikachu's aerials in this match-up.
 

BoTastic!

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Fludd completly stops skull bash. Not too smart.
I Think the match up is even.
*wishes friendlies with Anther were recorded*
 

Roller

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I'd be more concerned about Mario caping your QA. Don't recover into him with QA.
I'll give a full analysis when I get back later today (because I have college and work, okay Gallax?!)
True story. This is a huge pro for mario in the matchup. Ya, caping headbutt, and T-jolt, and thunder is bad for us as well, but the fact that he can jump off and just cape your recovering upB allows him to gimp (i guess it would be considered gimping) us without too much trouble. Especially with access to that water shooting of his. Even if you tried to attack him first to stop the gimp, he could cape your attack instead. worst case scenario for him is you don't die or get hit by anything, he still lives. No risk for Mario means do it whenever you can.

Most of the rest has been said.
 

The Truth!

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His cape and fludd arent that good for anything but his own recovery if you play moderately smart. Your biggest concern is his aerial camping, which 75% of marios dont do anyways. If they do though this becomes a very difficult matchup, but Ive finally come up with some new tricks to deal with it...none of which I'll share until my aerial campers thread is unlocked.
 

DanGR

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[...]
QA runs right through fireballs, so QAC is an excellent approach method.
[...]
Lemme know if I was wrong about anything regarding Pika
Caping actually deals with QAC very well. In order to QAC, Pikachu has to quick attack into the ground, and because of that, caping it will send him at an upwards angle and into a free fall state similar to the lag of Marth's upb, giving more than enough time punish accordingly.
 

mariofanpm12

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Mario's cape is his best friend here, and it really disrupts Pika's typical recovery options... fireballs wont help him much though. thunder sucks it can be caped. but pika has his upsides like combos. im not a pika main and im pretty uninformed on him, though, so my opinion is meh.

I propose... 50: 50...maybe 55:45 Mario's favor?
 

Ussi

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a form of reflection =\= safety from thunder. Many times thunder is a TRUE combo. (The more straight up you go, the more likely you'll be in hitstun when thunder hits you)

QA is hard to cape since it can go in unpredictable directions.
 

A2ZOMG

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This matchup is pretty balanced and even in my opinion.

Random fact, Mario can kill you at 40% if he Capes Thunder, and then Cape you while you're reeling from the knockback. The Cape can amplify knockback.

All Mario really needs in the air to compete with Pikachu is B-air. It has more range than any of Pikachu's aerials, and does good damage. Pikachu can however be unpredictable when approaching with QAC, so I dunno.

On the ground, Pikachu has the advantage. Smashes are a bit safer (but less effective at killing). Grab is better. Tilts and Jab I think have more range.

The camping goes both ways, but Mario wins out here a bit. Pikachu can't anti-edgecamp against Mario due to Cape Stalling. Pikachu lags enough for Caping T-jolts to be worthwhile.

Basically, Mario can camp against Pikachu and force the approach, but Pikachu has solid and fairly safe ground options that are annoying for Mario to work around. Mario for the most part has to directly KO Pikachu due to Pikachu being hard to edgeguard, so he has to work fairly hard in this matchup. There is no simple way to land KO moves on a Pikachu that knows how to space with QACs from what I've seen, but this is counterbalanced by the fact Pikachu is very limited in KO options too.
 

Matador

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Caping actually deals with QAC very well. In order to QAC, Pikachu has to quick attack into the ground, and because of that, caping it will send him at an upwards angle and into a free fall state similar to the lag of Marth's upb, giving more than enough time punish accordingly.
I did not know this...if Fludd is charged during that freefall, that could mean a free gimp...making the risk of QAC approaching outweigh the reward.

@ Ussi: What combos into Thunder?

Either way, I'm not seeing much that one character has over the other. I'm going with Bo on this one, since he's actually played Anther.
 

Ussi

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I did not know this...if Fludd is charged during that freefall, that could mean a free gimp...making the risk of QAC approaching outweigh the reward.

@ Ussi: What combos into Thunder?

Either way, I'm not seeing much that one character has over the other. I'm going with Bo on this one, since he's actually played Anther.
Caping QAC > FLUDD would only work on the edge like that. But it would lead to nice punishment like a spaced fsmash.

utilt, usmash, and dsmash are the three practical moves to combo into thunder. But they are dependent on the foe's DI and %.

Basically, the less % and the more DI you have, the harder it will be to thunder you.

The easiest set up with utilt, since its harder to DI in general, and dsmash is the hardest to set up.

with dsmash, the most practical way to get it to send up is to punish a spot dodge with it and aim to hit with the last hit or two only. still very easy to DI left/right though
 

BB12(BANNED)

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i think its about 57-43 Mario. Mario has a cape to reflect thunderjolt and Thunder, an d also turn him around. Plus, Pikachu is lighter, which means Mario U/F Smash can kill him at pretty early %s. Pikachu is quicker and has a better recovery(i think), but Mario has a cape, fireballs and FLUDD. if pikachu can play patiently, he can beat Mario, but Mario will give him a run for his money. Mario is one of Pikachu's hardest matchups, next to Kirby, Sonic(he has to approach though), and CAPTAIN FALCON
 

KayLo!

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I have very little Mario experience, but it seems pretty even as far as I can tell. Just don't take him to Japes because you're blind and thought they picked Weegee..... x.x

*Pika gets caped into the water on the left side*

.....
 

papermario12

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No way is it in Pikachu's favor. Mario can do so many things to Pikachu with that cape of his. He can reflect Thunderjolt and use Thunder against him. He beats Pikachu offstage. FLUDD absolutely wrecks Quick attack, as does cape. Pikachu cannot edgeguard with Thunder, because Mario has the Cape. A good Mario will NOT get grabbed, the cape can turn around anyone that tries to grab him. If both of them are offstage, Mario can FLUDD Quick attack and send Pikachu falling, while he uses FLUDD to recover back to the stage.

I dont really like matchup numbers, but I say 65-35 Mario, maybe even 70-30 Mario.

Just hope you're a lot better than whoever's using Mario.
 

KayLo!

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No way is it in Pikachu's favor. Mario can do so many things to Pikachu with that cape of his. He can reflect Thunderjolt and use Thunder against him. He beats Pikachu offstage. FLUDD absolutely wrecks Quick attack, as does cape. Pikachu cannot edgeguard with Thunder, because Mario has the Cape. A good Mario will NOT get grabbed, the cape can turn around anyone that tries to grab him. If both of them are offstage, Mario can FLUDD Quick attack and send Pikachu falling, while he uses FLUDD to recover back to the stage.

I dont really like matchup numbers, but I say 65-35 Mario, maybe even 70-30 Mario.

Just hope you're a lot better than whoever's using Mario.
30:70 in Mario's favor?

................

You're funny.
 

:mad:

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I don't think you guys realize...

03-29-2009, 05:40 PM

This was super-bumped.
 

papermario12

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30:70 in Mario's favor?

................

You're funny.
I said MAYBE 30:70, right now i think its 35-65, because Mario's Cape and FLUDD wreck Pikachu. I told you I dont like matchup numbers. All of Pikachu's specials are basically useless in this matchup, excluding maybe Quick attack(which can be stopped by FLUDD)

I don't think you guys realize...

03-29-2009, 05:40 PM

This was super-bumped.
What does BUMPED mean?
 

King~

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I said MAYBE 30:70, right now i think its 35-65, because Mario's Cape and FLUDD wreck Pikachu. I told you I dont like matchup numbers. All of Pikachu's specials are basically useless in this matchup, excluding maybe Quick attack(which can be stopped by FLUDD)



What does BUMPED mean?
what the fail?????

apprently i have to recover in a straight line and dont have skull bash.

what will a cape do if mario is under the stage? im lost apprently ive been doing this all wrong.

im supposed to broadcast how im recovering and thunder at obvious times and im always supposed to let thunder hit me <.<

guys its clearly a 30:70
 

papermario12

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what the fail?????

apprently i have to recover in a straight line and dont have skull bash.

what will a cape do if mario is under the stage? im lost apprently ive been doing this all wrong.

im supposed to broadcast how im recovering and thunder at obvious times and im always supposed to let thunder hit me <.<

guys its clearly a 30:70
Can't Mario cape Skull Bash? It doesnt matter HOW you recover, Mario can still FLUDD the ledge, and maybe you.

Why would Mario go under the stage? If you mean offstage, then mario wins offstage.

What idiot would get hit by Thunder? You can hear the "PIKA!" sound everytime he's about to do it.

I never said Pikachu couldnt win, he has some options. Just that Mario has a lot more.
 

King~

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Can't Mario cape Skull Bash? It doesnt matter HOW you recover, Mario can still FLUDD the ledge, and maybe you.

Why would Mario go under the stage? If you mean offstage, then mario wins offstage.

What idiot would get hit by Thunder? You can hear the "PIKA!" sound everytime he's about to do it.

I never said Pikachu couldnt win, he has some options. Just that Mario has a lot more.
u have never once been "fludd'd" by a mario and died unless i made a mistake
, oh wow u cape skull bash i still have Qac and can SB again<.<

if edge guarding why would i thunder guard if the mario is above me, i mean if hes below the stage recovering.

i up tilt you at 100+ you have to DI to the side and either hope i dont read the DI and hope i dont read the spotdoge, unless i wait to long you wont be able to cape.
 

Tagxy

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lol, youd have to be stupid to get wrecked by cape or fludd. Mario is kind of like a slow pika.

Edit: dang, wrong account again.
 

papermario12

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u have never once been "fludd'd" by a mario and died unless i made a mistake
, oh wow u cape skull bash i still have Qac and can SB again<.<

if edge guarding why would i thunder guard if the mario is above me, i mean if hes below the stage recovering.

i up tilt you at 100+ you have to DI to the side and either hope i dont read the DI and hope i dont read the spotdoge, unless i wait to long you wont be able to cape.
>.> i got owned
 

Pika Flame

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Catch him off guard with Thunder before he can cape you, then follow with a side smash.
 

Pika_Cam

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Lol. I just read through this whole argument. Wow. The Marios are completely overestimating the advantage the cape gives them here. There are lots of reflectors in the game, and it doesn't automatically mean that whoever has a reflector has a 65:35 matchup against Pikachu. Let's see, Fox can reflect thunder too. He must be great against Pika! Please, try that in tournament and see what happens.

Yes, Mario can cape Pikachu's quick attack if the Pikachu is completely predictable with it. 95% of the time, this won't happen.
 

KoJ

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Lol. I just read through this whole argument. Wow. The Marios are completely overestimating the advantage the cape gives them here. There are lots of reflectors in the game, and it doesn't automatically mean that whoever has a reflector has a 65:35 matchup against Pikachu. Let's see, Fox can reflect thunder too. He must be great against Pika! Please, try that in tournament and see what happens.

Yes, Mario can cape Pikachu's quick attack if the Pikachu is completely predictable with it. 95% of the time, this won't happen.
I think the cape's abilities OTHER than reflecting are what's being discussed. I personally give a slight advantage to Pika, but I don't have very much experience. The speed advantage of Pika really hits hard for me, and although Mario can mess with Thunder, Thunderjolt, and QAC, he just can't hold up to the amount of punishment from Pika's other attacks.
 

:mad:

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This thread got bumped by a troll, he wasn't serious about beating Pikachu. This isn't even current discussion!

Please, close this. Hylian.
Hyliaannnnnnnn.
 

Pika_Cam

Smash Ace
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I think the cape's abilities OTHER than reflecting are what's being discussed. I personally give a slight advantage to Pika, but I don't have very much experience. The speed advantage of Pika really hits hard for me, and although Mario can mess with Thunder, Thunderjolt, and QAC, he just can't hold up to the amount of punishment from Pika's other attacks.
Ok, let's look at what the cape can do.

The cape can reflect thunder. A lot of people don't take into account the hitstun between when they are hit up high and when they are thundered. G&W has a bucket he can pull out, but often times he doesn't have enough time before he gets hit. Even if it is reflected, I think most Pikachus will short hop thunder and not actually attach it to them. Basically, we won't get punished if it is reflected.

The cape reflects tjolts. If the tjolt is full hopped, then it can just go right under the Pikachu. Most of the time, I use tjolts as a distraction while I'm approaching. The way I see it, if Mario capes the jolt, he will get punished from above by probably a FF fair.

The cape can turn Pikachu around when he skull bashes. Skull bash does have a predictable trajectory. Pikachu can still get around this by QACing back onto the stage instead of using SB. The quick attack can be turned around, but as I said earlier, this won't happen 95% of the time if the Pikachu is careful and unpredictable.

All I'm saying is that the cape may give Mario a small advantage but not enough to warrant a 65:35 matchup like someone said previously.

EDIT: Straked, I don't mean to start another argument. I just thought what some people were saying was really silly.
 

gallax

Smash Hero
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do not close this thread. it is linked to my character matchup thread. if anything give the troll an infraction point. there is good discussion going on here and its all necessary cuz i need as much input before i write this MU due to its uniqueness.
 

:mad:

Bird Law Aficionado
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It's not really a good discussion because the troll posted wrong information that doesn't need to be replied to. That Pika Cam fella' wasted time replying to a banned account. Not a single sane Mario would side with that guy because nothing he said was even close to an accurate representation of this matchup.
 
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