• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Lucario vs. DDD (4) EXPORT

Status
Not open for further replies.

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
DEDEDE



Matchup:

40:60

General info:

I'd still have to consider DDD's kill potential less than average. Maybe calling it low was too extreme, but really it seems very difficult for DDD to set up any killers and relies mostly on the opponent making mistakes to nab kills rather than being able to trap or push the opponent for a kill. Utilt and bair yes, I forgot about gordos (however it's luck dependent no matter how gay/good it is), but the rest you mentioned are not something I'd consider good killmoves, or realistic ones, at least against Lucario. Fair I could see working on someone who's vulnerable while airborne and can be forced into the fair, but like, last time I was killed by a ddd fair was last summer lol. Uair and dair can both be SDI'd pretty easily. DDD's dsmash is...weird? It seems powerful but it's stupidly easy to DI the hit and live easily until 150-160%, and the move on block is extremely punishable as well. I'm not even going to talk about usmash and fsmash.
DDDs very vulnerable to punishment, which is normally a downfall for him but...Luc's punish game is just so trashy. I don't think waddles force an approach anymore than aurasphere does in this match, but should Luc be forced to approach due to percentage dis. or stock dis., DDD's defensive game really hurts Luc. Yeah he's a big target and you can put the hurt on him, but getting him in a vulnerable position like that is much more difficult than against most characters.
Dedede's used because of the overwhelming advantages that come with playing him. Good recovery, pretty damaging moves, that chain grab, of course.

For these reasons alone he's used, and he continues to give many characters trouble. Lucario can handle him, but a good Dedede a big problem for us.

What to avoid:

Ok well I main DDD so I wanted to give a little feedback. Against lucario's I find myself building up a lot of damage due to chaingrabs. His bair beats of any of lucarios aerials. I'm also not sure but his dair might outrange lucarios usmash. Also aura sphere has limited use due to the waddle dees. Dedede's tilts have good range. And Dedede has a lot easier time killing lucario then lucario does to D3.
DDD's ftilt is great for spacing as its faster and outranges lucarios fmash. that and dtilt (dont underestimate it, its got great priority and is fast) and shield grab shuts down most of lucarios ground options. pressuring with aura sphere on the ground wont work due to waddle dees but as said before easy to kill in the air because of his crappy air movement. inhale is a great combo breaker and can really change the momentum of a match. gordos can kill around 90 and keep the opponent on their feet with an 8% chance of getting one every time you press side b. (i think its 20% to get a waddle doo).

Also I know you guys probably dont do it much but never counter agianst a DDD because where other characters might attack a D3 might grab as we are more grab happy :p It will usually result in taking 20+% from a chain grab. But im sure you guys already knew that :p


How to win:

Lucario can combo the crap out of DDD and Lucario's Usmash is pretty amazing in this matchup since DDD's aerial mobility is balls. DDD's Waddles are overrated, they don't really stop Lucario's camping ability THAT much. They're just a minor annoyance imo.
So, yeah, everything I'd say has really been covered. A fully charged Aura Sphere can hit Dedede easier while he's recovering from the side due to his large size and how low his multiple jumps are. Use the Aura Sphere to KILL him then. AIM TO KILL!
Well to support the actual joke, when fighting against D3, dont do things that would be obvious, and mindgames are essential here, as dumb things will be punished via grab. It's not like he can shut down everything, he shuts down what is obvious that a Luc would do. He punishes Lucario easily, and like most battles, stay ahead of your opponent, a D3 offstage is a bad dedede, which in order to have a FULL control has to recover backward, as you have better air control than him, as long as he is facing you, you have the control in the air(****ing bair)


Helpful tips:

DDD has trouble killing smart opponents actually. It's pretty obvious that he's gonna try and kill you with Utilt. A sweet spotted Bair offstage is the most dangerous thing in this matchup as far as an early kill is concerned.


Stages:

I personally love taking DDD to Japes. As long as you don't get swallow gimped you should be fine. I like to just camp on the right side...it makes it EXTREMELY hard for DDD to approach and your AS hits him a lot more then his waddles will hit you. If he somehow gets on the platform on the right side and hits you offstage then you can just go in water to avoid any potential edgeguarding. Japes has the highest ceiling of all legal stages in the game and his main kill moves (Utilt, Gordo, Dsmash) kill vertically, the only one that doesn't is Bair and "mindgamed" Fsmash.
I would try to avoid Green Greens if it's allowed, Corneria if it's allowed or Rainbow Cruise if it's allowed. DDD will most likely try to CP Delfino or Halberd if you ban Corneria or Rainbow Cruise...some DDD's also like Castle Siege for some reason. I personally like Castle Siege for Lucario...on the second part of the stage just platform camp and don't let him walk you off.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 

xxpatgxx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
368
Location
NY
i think in this matchup, you should focus on powersheilding, and tilts. D3 cant punish your tilts with smashes, so, you wont get killed by messing up on tilts, and then ofcourse just look for openings, and watch out for D3's swallowcide
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
I think this matchup should be revisited. Anyone that thinks D3 is the same difficulty as metaknight or marth probably hasn't played a really good D3 that knows this matchup. This should be more like 65:35 or even 70:30.

The chaingrab pretty much ruins 99% of all approaches, brickwalling won't keep him away well enough to not fight him close range, and there is really nothing that lucario can do in close quarters that can't be punished with the right response from the D3 player. Not to mention the fact that D3's gimp/bair edguarding is really hard to deal with when the player knows how to read spotdodges well.

One problem I see with the opinions on this matchup is that people look to good players like Azen beating bad D3's like Korn and Omni on Youtube and assume that the matchup is closer to even. Hell, Lee beat DSF's D3 right? Unfortunately they don't pay attention to the fact that the D3 players in these videos don't punish mistakes in spacing correctly, and screw up the chaingrab like at least 1/3 of the time. Watch the videos, its rediculous.

The only recent videos I have seen of a great lucario vs a great d3 is co18 vs lee... and lee went mk after getting dominated the first match... and co18 still let him get away with some rather questionably spaced attacks vs his shield. How can we still say this matchup is only 60:40?

How many of you have actually played a ranked D3 player that knows the matchup (i.e., does not mess up the chaingrab, punishes improper spacing at least 90% of the time, and knows how to gimp/edgeguard lucario properly)?
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Eggz? (and I guess Moochero, but he doesn't quite make it too far in higher tourneys, but does do CG/"box" zone really well).
I think it's 60:40, mindgames can only help d3 connect for a kill, CG doesn't always ruin, especially if you count crossover options, and once d3 is offstage/in a setup, he gets pretty bashed up if the lucario player knows what he is doing (then again, isn't that what we usually assume for both characters?)
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
it's definitely not 30:70, I could see 35:65 happening, but I can see 35:65 happening for several other matchups as well. (not Marth)
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
phil, play mooch at GO. If you don't get 2 stocked or worse on a neutral stage I will settle for 60:40 on this matchup.
 

TK Wolf

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Bellevue, WA
I know I haven't been in the scene for months, but I've always felt like this matchup is a 65:35. I have much D3 experience against a solid and very defensive D3 player.

Has anyone mentioned that when a gordo comes out it also comes out a little faster? That's what makes waddles so incredibly dangerous. There is a significant chance that even though you're doing what should be safe, you get nailed and KOed by a gordo because of that extra speed it comes with. It forces you to take a risk or go defensive and try (and fail) to make D3 approach. I really don't think there is ANY way to make D3 approach on a flat stage. His waddles cancel out your spheres and linger on the field to harass you, until you're forced to hit them away or roll/take to the air, which often isn't a good position when he knows it's coming.

A D3 that is sitting in place and shielding is like a brick wall to Luc, from my experiences. Seriously, what can you do against a D3 that's shielding (who doesn't make bad mistakes). Ground options are almost 100% shut out by ftilt, aerial approaches leave you open to a chaingrab. You can mess around with AS charge and b-reversal, then what does that give you... 10-15% maybe? If you're lucky you'll be able to pop him into the air and get some more hits on him. While the risk you take is a spiffy 20-35% from a chaingrab across the stage, followed by his edgeguarding. The main beef I have with the "use mindgames" stance is that yes, you can and probably MUST use mindgames to get in on him, but even so, the odds of success are stacked against you with each attempt, AND the risk/reward is in his favor. This gets a little better when you've got more % on you and get a nice damage boost to catch up, but it's still painful.

I agree that D3 has some trouble getting the kill. Were it not for that I'd say the match is an 80:20, srsly. The aura boost and solid DI is what gives you any hope of making it out alive because it makes the risk/reward less unfavorable to Luc, and especially, your AS becomes more of a threat. Unfortunately, Luc definitely has more trouble killing than D3 does. AS is probably your best tool for kills, if you can get it fresh when you're at decent %. Fsmash... maybe... rarely... there are times when it works for sure, but you have to be really careful. bair is a good tool. It doesn't beat his bair, but when he's grounded and you can fake him into dropping his shield it'll send him offstage so you can tag on damage and maybe get him far enough for the kill.

D3 doesn't seem to have too much trouble recovering. Between fair, bair, he can make it tough to get extra hits in, and if you're waiting onstage to AS him, the SA on his upB lets him eat an AS in exchange for not dying in several situations. If he's forced to upB and can't get to the ledge, that's your chance to go aggr on him. Grab the ledge if the spacing/timing is right so that he can't grab it, then hop back onstage and guard like your life depends on it... because it does. You don't want go back to a neutral state against D3. "Neutral" state is in his favor, which is probably one of the strongest reasons that I feel this is a 63:35.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
phil, play mooch at GO. If you don't get 2 stocked or worse on a neutral stage I will settle for 60:40 on this matchup.
*looks suspicious*
How do you know who Mooch is? He isn't someone who makes it past the smash twins, so he usually gets overshadowed. Are you from WA? How come I haven't seen you in tourneys, if you are (Kevin is usually the only one who uses Boozer). Lol I'm so confused.
I'll try, it's been a long road trying to get back into "lucario", but I'll go with it and see what I do in the matchup.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Oh.
I fought with Moochero in friendlies quite a bit, and I fought him yesterday at the tourney, and I didn't get 2 stocked much. I can see a 65:35 happening though. Problem is, I haven't been able to get practice, so I can only do what I see on paper theory.
 

Moochero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
48
Location
Oregon
Oh.
I fought with Moochero in friendlies quite a bit, and I fought him yesterday at the tourney, and I didn't get 2 stocked much. I can see a 65:35 happening though. Problem is, I haven't been able to get practice, so I can only do what I see on paper theory.
You're such an idiot lol. We never played at GO. Not once. I'm soooo glad casey told me about this haha. Phill MM me 21093210730219 dollars PLEASE! I'm not here to argue the matchup or anything, but seriously Phil, stop lying to these people. You don't play this game in any sort of competitive way whatsoever and you barely play at all and for some reason you're known on these boards or something haha.

Basically we never played, idc about this matchup or w/e at all, so I'm not here to argue that, but I'm not going to sit back and let you lie to people about **** like this. PS, I beat CLL in tourney (2 stocked him first game?) and he's infinitely better than you :D
 

:mad:

Bird Law Aficionado
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
12,585
Location
Florida
3DS FC
3351-4631-7285
I haven't been to the Lucario boards in weeks and I lol'd.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
well, I didn't mean for this to go this far... but I guess it was inevitable. Anyway, my point is this:

Matchup threads like this one are often skewed by people that have little/no experience in the matchup (or little/no experience vs solid players who know the matchup).

I have used lucario a fair amount in tourneys against some of the best players in the region (northwest aint no socal, but we arent scrubs), so I think I have the right to question the 60:40.

Doesnt a 60:40 matchup mean we should win 40% of the time versus someone of equal skill?

I just want to hear from ANY lucario player that claims to beat good d3's 40% of the time. Or videos would be helpful. And dont say lee martin or azen unless you have a vid vs him winning against a d3 that can actually chaingrab.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
You're such an idiot lol. We never played at GO. Not once. I'm soooo glad casey told me about this haha. Phill MM me 21093210730219 dollars PLEASE! I'm not here to argue the matchup or anything, but seriously Phil, stop lying to these people. You don't play this game in any sort of competitive way whatsoever and you barely play at all and for some reason you're known on these boards or something haha.

Basically we never played, idc about this matchup or w/e at all, so I'm not here to argue that, but I'm not going to sit back and let you lie to people about **** like this. PS, I beat CLL in tourney (2 stocked him first game?) and he's infinitely better than you :D
You're kidding, right?

I play competitively, I don't get the opportunity to go often, and I certainly have played you on many occasions (usually friendlies)
What do you mean, I go to tourneys. What's all this, we played @ doubles (which hardly counted), and I thought we MM'd...
oops, nevermind, you're on. I'll get this sort of thing straightened out.

And what do you mean, we play in friendlies (not in the past 1-2 months, but nonetheless when I went to your house, we played a lot).
I'm not lying about playing you @ friendlies, and I should've played you for real @ G.O. I need moar practice.

Also @ ch0ke: It's old, but the azen vs. M2K matches are a good example of a good D3 who knows how to CG.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGpse1Y450E&feature=related
I didn't show the first two, because Azen was doing horribly trying to land AA FP, and the second was vs. MK, but you can see legitimate punishing, and overall pretty close games.

Fine, I can see why it is 65:35, but I don't see how Timbers has room to criticize/laugh, considering you don't go to tourneys much anymore, iirc.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
lol phil that vid is from may 2008. then again... brawl's metagame doesnt seem to have changed much lol. to me, the matchup doesnt seem to be so bad, but I only mained lucario for a few days.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
lol phil that vid is from may 2008. then again... brawl's metagame doesnt seem to have changed much lol. to me, the matchup doesnt seem to be so bad, but I only mained lucario for a few days.
I think I've mentioned it's old already, but the match is still pretty legitimate, no FPCG (since it's been proven escapable), not too much of anything, and both players still play the match right. The last two are losses for lucario, but one of them was only because of time running down, and it was otherwise a still pretty close game, and the other was close as well.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
I personally feel that the vid is a valid argument, so I can see 65:35. However, I didn't see so crossover/pressure (he used dair A LOT) tactics that I feel would've helped, so I can once again see and argument for 65:35, but I feel personally unsure. I just feel there are tools lucario has that can help. Plus I want to know what exactly defines the "65:35". Does that mean lucario has no pressure, no ability to answer what D3 can do, has a definite kill on him that is very reliable? I'm just curious.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
If anyone saw Lee Martin vs. CO18 at WHOBO, that was a pretty good detector.
One match, not even a whole set, is no where near enough to determine a matchup ratio lol

(at least I only remember it being one match, I cant find vids on youtube :/)
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
but I don't see how Timbers has room to criticize/laugh, considering you don't go to tourneys much anymore, iirc.
i wasn't telling people i played brawl often when I actually didn't, either.

I've started going to tournies again, despite not owning the game at the moment. Not sure if I want to actually start playing consistantly again, as going from placing from a 10% cut to a 25% hurts your morale and kills your ambition to get good at the game again.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
OK maybe im wrong but I thought a 40:60 matchup means lucario will WIN this matchup 40% of the time, assuming equal skill in players.... which means referencing a match from a set in which the lucario probably isn't going to help an argument in favor of lucario, even if it wasn't from the stone age.

Any other solid lucarios out there that claim to do well in this matchup?

As mooch said, he did 2-0 CutestLilLucario in tourney with D3.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
yeah he plays wifi alot, but this was in an offline tourney. his lucario is pretty solid though.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
i wasn't telling people i played brawl often when I actually didn't, either.

I've started going to tournies again, despite not owning the game at the moment. Not sure if I want to actually start playing consistantly again, as going from placing from a 10% cut to a 25% hurts your morale and kills your ambition to get good at the game again.
I did go to G.O., I just never did MM, and I never used lucario against Mooch (I did doubles vs. him there, but that hardly counts).

@ckm: Yeah, he's pretty solid, although he certainly has wifi habits that need to be kicked.
65:35 to me says "you need to counter with a different character", and that means either a whole load of 60:40s in the D3 matchups need to be changed because they get CG + they are even more iffy offstage or don't have great pressure options, or saying it is very, very bad needs a bit more evaluation.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
it's lucs killpower/potential that is probably the biggest issue here.

Tons of characters get CGd, so what. Unless you're Wolf it really doesn't matter.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Exactly, that's what people have been emphasizing about the matchup, and if Kill power/potential was an issue it would've made characters like sonic a lot more unfavorable for them (although sonic's close quarters/fake out stuff is pretty good).
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
I took a review of the videos for all that I've seen, and it seems so: I think this could be bagged as a 65:35 disadvantage matchup. We've got good tools, but they seem more "gimmicky" than technically useful, and requires a lot of tough stuff. Still, I think that this would make a lot of other matchups more meh imo.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
come on phil thats a bit weak...
just coz someone tells you they think 40:60 isnt accurate shouldnt be reason to force you to change your opinion lol.

and tourney ref's with cutestlillucario arent worth much in an argument lol...
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Shaya's a good D3, right?
What would you do to counter some of his stuff? I usually like to roll when they ftilt -> utilt and do cross ups with fair, but they seem punishable once learned.
I really don't care much about the numbers anymore, I'm determined to go solid lucario now, regardless the matchup.
*strikes up an Earl Hickey impersonation*

"'Cause it seems pretty clear how I lost some of my games at G.O. that Karma wanted me to stick with my old main!"
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
The reason I think lucario has it worse than others that can get chaingrabbed are because:

1) lucario's ****ty arial and ground movement make him easier to grab (unlike characters like wario/sonic)
2) Lucario cannot effectively camp D3 due to waddles/gordos (IMO) (unlike characters like pit)
3) Lucario has no shenanegans to escape the chaingrab (unlike diddy), and due to his physics and lack of shenanegans, D3 can get a ****ton of grabs off in one chaingrab(unlike snake/marth)
5) Lucario has a difficult time regaining the stage after being chaingrabbed which can lead to either a gimp KO or another chaingrab when you get back onstage (unlike basically anyone else)

These are the reasons I think Lucario has it worse off than others, IMO.

One more argument I would like to restate:

I could see this matchup as 60:40, but only if other matchups like Marth/GW/MK/Snake were revised because these are CLEARLY much easier than D3.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
I still think Snake and DDD (and Olimar) are on the same level of difficulty.

Marth, GaW, and MK are marginally easier I think.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom