Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #5 - Lucario (Rediscussion)

VietGeek · Mar 12, 2009

This thread has been recreated for the sake of an editable first post, and so that it could symbolically be a 'clean slate' to rediscuss the match-up at hand, which is Lucario.

Our first discussion went well, but its age shows. Lucario was basically underestimated by both the Lucario mains (or they're just Modest Special Sweepers) and Toon Link mains.

Roughly 8 months have past, and Lucario has been considered a much tougher contender. He has stood strong against the judgment of two tier list, which must reflect that he as a character has grown in both successful representation, as well as a 'better' metagame.

As such...

Lucario

Ratio: 50:50 Even

Synopsis:
Coming like...when you believe.

Onward!

Timbers · Mar 12, 2009

I haven't played a toon link in almost 7 months lol.

Luc hasn't really evolved at all since then though. I dunno what Toons have been doing.

Hyro · Mar 12, 2009

Lucario can't be beaten. Even if your about to win with one hit, they'll combo you then kill you at 60%. 90-10 Lucario's favor. We might win if they SD. For all 3 stocks.

Bomber7 · Mar 12, 2009

gona have to go with Hyro on this. I've played some decent Lucarios and they know how to use them. Hit boxes and amazing attack speed gets me every time I move.... or think about moving. >.>

Not to mention a major factor is that TL has a hard time killing and that totaly screws him over bnecause Lucarios gets more powerful with more damage and TL is floaty.

Lee Martin · Mar 12, 2009

50-50. toon link ***** lucario off stage.
hard for lucario to get in. lucario kills toon link kind of easy bc of toon links killing power so idk. 50 50

TLMSheikant · Mar 12, 2009

No way its not even nor 90-10. Its 60:40 luke's advantage definetely. We cant kill reliably and in this matchup in particular it becomes a pain. But we outcamp and he might have trouble getting close be careful of charged aurasphere since it will outdo our bombs, his hitboxes are ridiculous especially his fsmash. He can combo very well and his dair is great for protecting his underside. Though our uair sometimes outprioritizes it.

Lee Martin · Mar 12, 2009

if toon link camps its 50/50 .. toon link gimps the crap out of lucario. a smart toon link knows about his hitboxes. i think i would know this matchup more than anybody else. srsly.

TLMSheikant · Mar 12, 2009

WAit...lee martin werent u a lucario user? @_@ And yeah luke gets gimped by tink. And I should know about camping

Im a very very very campy tink its just that when it comes to killing we are toast. I guess the solution is to camp the 6-7 mins

and try to get him to mess up to get the kill somewhere in between.

Lee Martin · Mar 12, 2009

yeah i main lucario and 2nd toon link now.

Artmastercorey · Mar 12, 2009

For me, its lucario's dodge and spheres that make him difficult to fight. His dodge is so fast and goes so far that he tends to end up behind me. I played someone who just dodged twice and then down a'd me, and did it over and over again and it kept working. But then again that was awhile back, also I find the fact that our projectiles can stop working once he reaches a certain damage crazy lol. One thing i learned is to use uptilt only once or so and then hold shield because they will try to down a you everytime. Shield it and then continue to follow up. Has anyone ever tried the bomb shield where u drop the bomb on the ground and it shields for a bit, I feel that move could be of some use if we learned how to actually use it more often .

Santi · Mar 12, 2009

DEar god... gimp....

we must gimp.

our only hope....

-Tempest- · Mar 12, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
No way its not even nor 90-10. Its 60:40 luke's advantage definetely. We cant kill reliably and in this matchup in particular it becomes a pain. But we outcamp and he might have trouble getting close be careful of charged aurasphere since it will outdo our bombs, his hitboxes are ridiculous especially his fsmash. He can combo very well and his dair is great for protecting his underside. Though our uair sometimes outprioritizes it.

Our Uair will go through his Dair if you hit him from directly below.

NearZzz · Mar 13, 2009

Santi said:
DEar god... gimp....

we must gimp.

our only hope....

This.
Lee Martin probably does know this matchup the best, I'm gonna call it 55:45 Lucario, MAYBE even or 60:40, could go either way.

The only thing i like about this matchup is how hes pretty easy to gimp, and on some parts of delfino,lylat,YI, and Green green, Dsmash is a 0HKO :D (Though im pretty sure they can stop this some way, so don't be incredibly obvious with it.) though its that way with most chars, you should be able to gimp after the dsmash in lucarios case

rather than type up a long discussion on it, I'll try and get some matches up tommorow.

Also, Against Lucario, your eyes will lie to you. Those hitboxes are ridiculous.

Timbers · Mar 13, 2009

Exactly how does Toon have a reliable gimp here? From past knowledge, so long as you DId everything correctly while offstage you could get back easily as all of Toon's aerials send you at a high diagonal, even without DI, and there was no safe way for Toon to dair offstage.

I'm certainly willing to hear this though.

I agree with everything Lee says. At the moment I don't believe Toon has reliable gimp potential but offstage, Toon still can wreck Luc, and hopefully net an fair kill at the 120-130 mark.

Fox Is Openly Deceptive · Mar 13, 2009

and there was no safe way for Toon to dair offstage.

Funny you should say that.
In fact there is a safe way now to dair off stage, I figured it out like yesterday. Just check out the projectile thread near the end of it, It's called the Safe Spike 3.0

Timbers · Mar 13, 2009

reading about it, it seems to be that the only way Toon can land the spike is if the opponent is right next to the stage and above stage level?

I can't say I ever recall being in a position like that.

vanderzant · Mar 13, 2009

Timbers said:
reading about it, it seems to be that the only way Toon can land the spike is if the opponent is right next to the stage and above stage level?

I can't say I ever recall being in a position like that.

I'm pretty sure that you can DI the bomb hit kind of downwards, so getting below or at least in line the the ledge isn't really a problem.

And there is a pretty wide frame of oppurtunity to use dair. You don't (well can't) use it immediately after being hit. You have to wait for the (hit?)stun to wear off. So by moving TL away for the stage and DIng the bomb hit, you can get pretty far off and below the stage.

Timbers · Mar 13, 2009

You could probably get even with stage level if you were like under 20%, right?

I don't think it's possible to get stage level any higher than that, although this is just me going off of memory of TL's bomb knockback.

Anyways has anyone actually done anything with this move? The other Toon that said something about this said this was discovered yesterday.

TLMSheikant · Mar 13, 2009

Yep discovered like 3 days ago. U need at least 40% and throw the bomb when landing so that it does max dmg and u can DI the bomb hit to slow fall the Dair. We also have nair which has horizontal knockback. We might not gimp, but if ur offstage ull eat a lot of damage still

.

Sosuke · Mar 13, 2009

That bomb trick would be useless against Lucario.

Anyway, its better to tether hog the edge if you can in this match up.
This way, if Lucario misses the ledge and recovers onstage, you can chain cancel 9press down) then use an aerial jump to hit Lucario with a Fair / Nair ( I'd go with Fair =P ).
Just regular hogging the edge might not give you enough time to do this.

Timbers · Mar 13, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Yep discovered like 3 days ago. U need at least 40% and throw the bomb when landing so that it does max dmg and u can DI the bomb hit to slow fall the Dair. We also have nair which has horizontal knockback. We might not gimp, but if ur offstage ull eat a lot of damage still .

luc will no doubt eat damage off the stage, I just wanted to know if Toon actually had reliable gimp potential on Luc, because there wasn't any last time I played against Toons lol.

Santi · Mar 13, 2009

You don't really have to chain cancel at all.
His recovery has no hitboxes so just hang on the ledge and wait to see what happens.

Ban Yoshi's.

Fox Is Openly Deceptive · Mar 13, 2009

The safe spike can spike opponents pretty much anywhere. Above, far out and even below. The point is we can safely spike pretty much anywhere with good DI. It's still really new and we don't have a video yet so unless you tried the move for yourself, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Sosuke · Mar 14, 2009

I know Santi.
I mean like, if you're JUST about to grab the edge to guard them, its better because the regular edge grab makes you wait a second before you can get off it. Chain canceling doesn't make you have to wait.

Santi · Mar 14, 2009

sasukebowser said:
I know Santi.
I mean like, if you're JUST about to grab the edge to guard them, its better because the regular edge grab makes you wait a second before you can get off it. Chain canceling doesn't make you have to wait.

Oh i got you.
Neverminddd. my bad

<3

Jash · Mar 15, 2009

This could be a 50/50 because Lucario doesn't have much projectiles besides neutral B and Toon Link has 3 (heh...i rhymed). Although, its most likely a 60/40 Lucario because he just doesn't die dammit, and that my friends...isn't a good thing.......oh no.....no no no.

Col. Stauffenberg · Mar 16, 2009

Keep in mind Aura Sphere can eat through Toon Link's arrows and boomerang once Lucci's damage is high enough (Bombs always clank) which makes playing campy a lot less safe.

Conker315 · Mar 16, 2009

Aura itself is just to much power at high percentage.Lucario is one tuff pokemon that doesn't die easyli.
Lucarios always tend to beat me at tourny's

Sosuke · Mar 16, 2009

Its lame because TL sucks at gimping. ._.

Nair is the best option. And it isn't even good.
*sometimes wishes we had Link's Nair offstage* >_>

Linkwearsgreen · Mar 16, 2009

you can always moonwalk b-air to gimp like crazy...

Sosuke · Mar 16, 2009

Bair doesn't gimp at all.

Power of Slash · Mar 23, 2009

The ledge is the absolute last place you want to be vs. a Lucario that knows what they're doing & they're on the stage. The thing covers the whole vicinity so much it's ridiculous. Roll = Grab -> Bthrow, Jump = Usmash or any kind of follow up, Ledge attack = Shield Grab, Ledge Hopping = Fsmash.

Projectiles > Lucario

Don't get impatient with the kill. The Lucario might end up around like... 160% before it's fully safe and guaranteed to kill. Don't even change your game into kill mode. They get these crazy... survival reflexes that uber-predict Hyphen Smashes. Tbh, I'd wait it out for the Utilt kill or improvise.

As far as my experience goes, there's no point in attacking the Lucario off stage with anything but projectiles. Lucario's Aerial game is just TOO good for Toon Link to even fathom a gimping Nair or Fair, stick with the Rangs, bombs, and arrows off stage, and gimp in a similar fashion to Olimar.

Aura Sphere's really gay when you don't have an offense going.

That's what... some of my Lucario experience has taught me, though I can't think of everything at this point. I do know you definately want to get into a projectile fest with Lucario.

Sorry about bumping but it said rediscussion, and I try to chip in whatever contribution I can. I've had the luxury of playing Milln on multiple occasions, so I thought it might help here.

I go with the concensus. 60:40 Lucario. They kill us like... 10x better than we kill them. and that just can't be overcome.

Sosuke · Mar 23, 2009

I think JC throwing bombs forward might be a good approach?
It stops their Aura Sphere, so doesn't that make us safe to approach?

Power of Slash · Mar 23, 2009

Tested,

JC Throw forward works very nicely as an approach

|RK| · Mar 26, 2009

You guys are far too afraid of us. I'd say 50:50

Alzi · Mar 27, 2009

Not you that ugly pokemon called Lucario.

Tiersr4Queers · Mar 30, 2009

uhhh y is he high tier again? :/

VietGeek · Mar 30, 2009

Tiersr4Queers said:
uhhh y is he high tier again? :/

Eh he's Melee Marth in disguise, eh doesn't die and benefits from floaty BARLW mechanics and doesn't afraid of anything.

Eh he's a pretty cute guy and stuff.

>_>

Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #5 - Lucario (Rediscussion)

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