Falcon Drop

(I know this thread is ugly and incomplete atm, I'l fix it up later when I'm not feeling lazy)

Falcon Drop:

"Grounded" Grab Release (achieved by pummeling them) at the edge of the stage, + followup, preferrably walkoff Knee

The reason I call it Falcon Drop is because a) you drop your opponent off the edge, and b) you drop down on them from above with an aerial (a well-timed Footstool may work but I'm not testing that). Please note that I've tried DAir several times and have never been able to recover (or land) so don't ever try it in a match unless you can get it to work. I've never tried NAir because I don't see it possibly working.

I know I'd said I'd get a video last weekend, but I didn't get the opportunity so I'm doing that tommorrow after I finish my unfortunately-CPU-limited testing on all the characters.

The ones that say NOT TESTED I don't plan on testing cuz I don't feel like worrying about the transformation thing.

Mario: kinda works but I'd expect he can up-B before you get your move out
DK: can jump so soon that his second jump makes it back onto the stage
Link: works pretty well
Samus: can grab the ledge
ZSS: NOT TESTED
Kirby: can grab the ledge
Fox: works pretty well but I have trouble getting the sweet knee (although gimp suffices with that recovery)
Pikachu: seems to work pretty well
Marth: works pretty well but he can probably up-B right away
G&W: works pretty well but he can probably up-B right away
Luigi: can grab the ledge
Diddy: control
Zelda: control
Sheik: NOT TESTED
Pit: control
MK: control, FAir seems too slow
Falco: control, FAir too slow because of the vertical speed of his jump
Squirtle: NOT TESTED
Ivysaur: NOT TESTED
Charizard: NOT TESTED
Ike: BAir under stage = gimp, pretty much anything combos to Falcon Dive because of his up-B's startup
Snake: control
ZSS: control, knee seems too slow
Peach: grabs
Yoshi: grabs, 2nd jump makes it onto stage
Ganon: 2nd jump doesn't grab edge?
IC: grab
DDD: yeah
Wolf: seems to work
Lucario: grab
Ness: owned via gimp knee
Sonic: I think you can get an UAir
Bowser: Knee might not always work (not sure)
Wario: Knee seems to work, but why bother?
TL: gimpem
Rob; control
Olimar: grab
Falcon: seems to work but easy to get hit by his falcon dive if you don't sweetspot
Jiggs: grab
Lucas: gimptastic

*control: When I say "control" it means they can DI quite a bit such that not all moves work all the time (although UAir does seem to basically work all the time due to it's speed and hitbox). However, it generally seems that if you pay attention to which way they DI (there's a small bit of time after you release them before you can move) you can pick your attack accordingly. This generally means (for characters labeled with "control" since they're the ones who can DI enough for this to matter) if they DI towards the stage, BAir or UAir will hit them into the stage, if they DI away you can hit them with only UAir (Knee doesn't have enough range), and if they don't DI you can hit them with all 3.

Videos of several Falcon Drop attempts (now with annotations):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLkDHiBW5co&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz-m1nnRau4&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1GYAJmVZKQ&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqK66nZQUBc&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7M5M3Zq6po&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dNf-JkkdI&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFQo8HUbFQ&fmt=18

To Knee someone straight below you, you want to flick away from the stage to walk off it, then hold back while you flick the C-stick forward. I screw up several times by accidentally flicking the CStick up and UAiring. Be warned that certain characters can DI too far away for FAir to hit them.

When you actually want to UAir, you want to fastfall it a bit or else it comes out too high. You also kinda want to wait a bit for UAir since on certain characters since you have to time it right to land it. If you don't, you'll often get footstooled (except it just boosts the opponent and doesn't effect you). For characters with good control of their DI, this is the only move that works pretty consistently.

BAir is alright but I have trouble getting it to sweetspot. It also doesn't stagespike too close to the ledge. It usually

I only managed to pull off a DAir once (nipple spike), the rest of the times it fastfalled, missed, and killed me.

Footstools may be possible, but it's risky in that you could get yourself footstooled.

As far as the opponents' options go, Falcon Drop generally assumes your opponenet has a second jump and will use it right away (it also assumes they don't attack during their second jump; that could be a problem, but it would also mean many of them would have to use their up-B afterwards because they wouldn't be able to grab the ledge during the move). Unfortunately, certain characters with quick up-Bs (like Marth) can probably up-B you before you can hit them. However, you can instant-edgehog out of Falcon Drop (I tried a few times on Luigi and couldn't get it so I don't think you can do it on characters that grab the ledge right away) so that's not something they're likely to do much if at all. What I'd expect a good player to be most likely to do is DI away and not use their second jump towards the stage, so if they DI away stick with UAir and don't use it unless they jump towards the stage since it comes out fast enough to time it. If they don't 2nd jump towards the stage, you know your opponent is going to up-B (with a few exceptions), so plan accordingly (gimp knee if you can beat their up-B, edgehog and ledgehop knee if they make it to the stage, whatever else may be appropriate for your opponent).

Nice read.
Good to see the falcon man destroying some high tier *****.

With the dair, could you possibly fast-fall, then do a rising dair?
If people don't see it coming I think you could pull it off.

Wogrim, tell me if you want to test this perfectly. You can test this with 100% accuracy using a code after hacking your Wii. It would be amazing. You could tell if any of these are real combos, exactly what their options are and the like.

illinialex24 said:

Wogrim, tell me if you want to test this perfectly. You can test this with 100% accuracy using a code after hacking your Wii. It would be amazing. You could tell if any of these are real combos, exactly what their options are and the like.

Click to expand...

y wouldn't he?
I say test it in depth.

DemonFart said:

y wouldn't he?
I say test it in depth.

Click to expand...

Because you have to use hacks to do it. PM me because I'm not 100% allowed to endorse it so I am only endorsing the actual code, not the process of putting the program on your Wii, which is against policy. So PM if you want to know the "code".

illinialex24 said:

Wogrim, tell me if you want to test this perfectly. You can test this with 100% accuracy using a code after hacking your Wii. It would be amazing. You could tell if any of these are real combos, exactly what their options are and the like.

Click to expand...

I can almost guarantee they're not real combos. The character it seems closest to a combo for is DDD.

Wogrim said:

I can almost guarantee they're not real combos. The character it seems closest to a combo for is DDD.

Click to expand...

You can also test to see how they can avoid it, possibly setting up a real combo by reading their DI. You can't double stick DI with the code, but who knows. Like Sheik's drop off edge rest isn't a true combo but if he comes up way too high, he's open for a fair so you can almost guarantee a hit.

Good job, Wogrim! Something I can use against DDD? Excellent. I also like the idea of doing this on Snake.

Videos of several Falcon Drop attempts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLkDHiBW5co&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz-m1nnRau4&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1GYAJmVZKQ&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqK66nZQUBc&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7M5M3Zq6po&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dNf-JkkdI&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFQo8HUbFQ&fmt=18

To Knee someone straight below you, you want to flick away from the stage to walk off it, then hold back while you flick the C-stick forward. I screw up several times by accidentally flicking the CStick up and UAiring. Be warned that certain characters can DI too far away for FAir to hit them.

When you actually want to UAir, you want to fastfall it a bit or else it comes out too high. You also kinda want to wait a bit for UAir since on certain characters since you have to time it right to land it. If you don't, you'll often get footstooled (except it just boosts the opponent and doesn't effect you). For characters with good control of their DI, this is the only move that works pretty consistently.

BAir is alright but I have trouble getting it to sweetspot. It also doesn't stagespike too close to the ledge. It usually

I only managed to pull off a DAir once (nipple spike), the rest of the times it fastfalled, missed, and killed me.

Footstools may be possible, but it's risky in that you could get yourself footstooled.

As far as the opponents' options go, Falcon Drop generally assumes your opponenet has a second jump and will use it right away (it also assumes they don't attack during their second jump; that could be a problem, but it would also mean many of them would have to use their up-B afterwards because they wouldn't be able to grab the ledge during the move). Unfortunately, certain characters with quick up-Bs (like Marth) can probably up-B you before you can hit them. However, you can instant-edgehog out of Falcon Drop (I tried a few times on Luigi and couldn't get it so I don't think you can do it on characters that grab the ledge right away) so that's not something they're likely to do much if at all. What I'd expect a good player to be most likely to do is DI away and not use their second jump towards the stage, so if they DI away stick with UAir and don't use it unless they jump towards the stage since it comes out fast enough to time it. If they don't 2nd jump towards the stage, you know your opponent is going to up-B (with a few exceptions), so plan accordingly (gimp knee if you can beat their up-B, edgehog and ledgehop knee if they make it to the stage, whatever else may be appropriate for your opponent).

Well, this is useful.

*not sarcasm*

Ok cool Noddlehead is going to be testing these out. Keep in mind Ike has true combos with them and if not, you can see how avoidable it is without a C-stick DI, which is hard for grab releases.

Hmm, this seems to require a lot of characters to jump right after falling below the ledge, and a lot of real players would never do that (those jumps could've been countered with fsmashes even). A lot of players will let themselves drop a bit, expecting a followup from their opponent, and be ready to dodge past it, or counterattack (like, if we were doing Falcon dittos and this happened to me, I'd simply drop down, double jump uair, and then up-b to the ledge or onto the stage.)

illinialex24 said:

Ok cool Noddlehead is going to be testing these out. Keep in mind Ike has true combos with them and if not, you can see how avoidable it is without a C-stick DI, which is hard for grab releases.

Click to expand...

From what I heard Ike's combos are out of the aerial release.

Mit said:

Hmm, this seems to require a lot of characters to jump right after falling below the ledge, and a lot of real players would never do that (those jumps could've been countered with fsmashes even). A lot of players will let themselves drop a bit, expecting a followup from their opponent, and be ready to dodge past it, or counterattack (like, if we were doing Falcon dittos and this happened to me, I'd simply drop down, double jump uair, and then up-b to the ledge or onto the stage.)

Click to expand...

UAir comes out fast enough that if your opponent doesn't jump right away you'll notice and hold off on it. Knee is still somewhat useful just because of its priority (although since you wouldn't sweetspot it, less useful on characters with good recoveries).

id test this with you if you'd like..i'll DI and try escaping as best as possible.

i like the looks of this.

wonder if ganon could do this to run off the ledge and Dair

If anyone tries this in matches, let me know if your opponent finds any good ways to avoid it.

I was going to do it against my friend's ganondorf but then he dark dived into final destination's lip and died... =.="

xzerolegend said:

i like the looks of this.

wonder if ganon could do this to run off the ledge and Dair

Click to expand...

Could be. At least, if anyone, it'd be say, ness and lucas? I wouldn't know, I don't use ganon.
GO TEST IT OK

nobody tried an above stage raptor boost yet? i think most people will jump right into it.

Zodac said:

nobody tried an above stage raptor boost yet? i think most people will jump right into it.

Click to expand...

it could work but it would be too risky. i'd rather just do an aerial

I've been doing this for 2 months or so, maybe should've posted it....ah well
It works wonders for me, especially against Fox and others with ''stall 'n' move'' up-B's.
Also, you don't really have to run off every time, my advice is to stay unpredictable and mix it up with ''on ledge'' attacks like U-tilt, does the trick against opponents who will surely jump into it. Gotta keep em' guessing.
Another nasty one is to grab them out of their second jump, gives lots of opportunities.
As Wogrim stated, you can fastfall attacks, but I try to avoid such a situation, it could end badly, because the ledge is more out of reach and when your opponent gets the chance to Hog, you're dead. Not trying to discourage the idea, just stating what I think is safer .

(Epic situation: let yourself get hit by an attack, tech-up and walljump into a sweet Knee or Stomp ..)

I've been doing this for a while too but I don't normally push back into the stage (which is what "falcon drop" is I think) although ill try it that way

Zodac said:

nobody tried an above stage raptor boost yet? i think most people will jump right into it.

Click to expand...

Probably too risky. Most of the characters' (at least out of the ones that can't grab the ledge out of the release) second jumps don't make it onto the stage, so you'd probably fail every time they don't jump as soon as possible.

LuLLo said:

I've been doing this for 2 months or so, maybe should've posted it....ah well
It works wonders for me, especially against Fox and others with ''stall 'n' move'' up-B's.
Also, you don't really have to run off every time, my advice is to stay unpredictable and mix it up with ''on ledge'' attacks like U-tilt, does the trick against opponents who will surely jump into it. Gotta keep em' guessing.
Another nasty one is to grab them out of their second jump, gives lots of opportunities.
As Wogrim stated, you can fastfall attacks, but I try to avoid such a situation, it could end badly, because the ledge is more out of reach and when your opponent gets the chance to Hog, you're dead. Not trying to discourage the idea, just stating what I think is safer .

(Epic situation: let yourself get hit by an attack, tech-up and walljump into a sweet Knee or Stomp ..)

Click to expand...

I suggested this more than 2 months ago, just no one got around to testing it or made vids for it. I don't really like staying onstage for anything but jab/regrab, because it's a wasted opportunity if you do the UTilt or smash and they don't jump into it.

Skip2MaLoo said:

I've been doing this for a while too but I don't normally push back into the stage (which is what "falcon drop" is I think) although ill try it that way

Click to expand...

Holding back is just my recommendation for sweet Kneeing people closer to the stage, otherwise you'll more often hit them with the back side of the gimp knee, which can still kill them somtimes but is less desirable.

Hmm you may be right about that.
My experience has taught me that, when used too often, the runoff becomes VERY predictable and punishable, my friends keep finding ways around it and often punish me for it. That's why I like to stay on the edge sometimes, just like you just stand still after d-throw and punish them for an early airdodge, works for me pretty well.
And maybe I read your suggestion 2 months ago and forgot it, I wasn't claiming discovery or trying to look better than the rest (if you think that way, but I doubt it).

Well if you could be more detailed on what they do to avoid it that'd be nice. As far as my testing went, it seemed that UAir and maybe BAir are fast enough that you could wait until they jump before doing it. Knee would still be useful on characters who still get outprioritized by it. Instant edgehog makes going straight for an up-B a risky choice, and even if they were to make it onto the stage it would likely be a ledgehopped Knee or Falcon Punch. If you instant edgehog and they jump instead of up-B, try a ledge-stall (or whatever the correct term would be, you might call it ledgehop but don't do it onto the stage) DAir.

I want to emphasize that those are hypothetical options and since I don't know how well they work in practice, I'd like to know if you've tried them all and how they react. General success rates and consequences of failure would be nice. Try using only walkoff UAir for starters, since that seems most reliable for me. Walkoff sweet Knee is epic as hell, but it pretty much assumes they jump into it, which is less likely on humans.

pokemon trainer:
squirtle: he can use up b it has tons of priority would not recommend but is sexy if he jumps
ivysaur: yesz.
charizard can use up b and recieve super armor frames but then again if he jumps..get yo moves shown

are we talking about a dropoff knee? because i never saw it clarified :S

its a drop off knee, but pushing toward the stage+fair.

Skip2MaLoo said:

its a drop off knee, but pushing toward the stage+fair.

Click to expand...

alright, so c sticking it

ill try this today

Wogrim said:

Well if you could be more detailed on what they do to avoid it that'd be nice. As far as my testing went, it seemed that UAir and maybe BAir are fast enough that you could wait until they jump before doing it. Knee would still be useful on characters who still get outprioritized by it. Instant edgehog makes going straight for an up-B a risky choice, and even if they were to make it onto the stage it would likely be a ledgehopped Knee or Falcon Punch. If you instant edgehog and they jump instead of up-B, try a ledge-stall (or whatever the correct term would be, you might call it ledgehop but don't do it onto the stage) DAir.

I want to emphasize that those are hypothetical options and since I don't know how well they work in practice, I'd like to know if you've tried them all and how they react. General success rates and consequences of failure would be nice. Try using only walkoff UAir for starters, since that seems most reliable for me. Walkoff sweet Knee is epic as hell, but it pretty much assumes they jump into it, which is less likely on humans.

Click to expand...

Get it , tonight it's an hours long Brawl-fest with my friends, so I'll try to execute it many times, try some options and see succes/failure rate, but don't expect a detailed/in depth analysis.
Just for info, the characters they play are:
Wario
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Fox
G&W
Ganondorf
Peach
Yoshi
Ness

Just so you know that probably each of these characters gets tested by me
Would require me to play Falcon all night probably, but ah, I need to spend more time on him anyway.
I'll try to post the info I've managed to get Sunday, and if not Monday.

LuLLo said:

Get it , tonight it's an hours long Brawl-fest with my friends, so I'll try to execute it many times, try some options and see succes/failure rate, but don't expect a detailed/in depth analysis.
Just for info, the characters they play are:
Wario
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Fox
G&W
Ganondorf
Peach
Yoshi
Ness

Just so you know that probably each of these characters gets tested by me
Would require me to play Falcon all night probably, but ah, I need to spend more time on him anyway.
I'll try to post the info I've managed to get Sunday, and if not Monday.

Click to expand...

same except im going to a pretty good sized tourny with alot of people.. im gonna try this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZpGARj8VM

when you grab DDD on the very edge you fall through the stage.

Player-3 said:

are we talking about a dropoff knee? because i never saw it clarified :S

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We're talking about following up 'grounded' grab releases at the edge. Not just with a Knee. Since a sweet knee kind of assumes your opponent will jump into it, it's not too great unless it's a character that gets gimped easily by gimp knee as well. UAir seems most reliable because it's timable, but there may be tricks of landing things that I haven't figured out yet. Watch the vids if you haven't.

Zodac said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZpGARj8VM

when you grab DDD on the very edge you fall through the stage.

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That's happened to me but it only seems to happen if you pummel as soon as possible. I'd assumed that it happens on all characters since when I first did a bunch of Falcon Drop testing it was mostly on DDD, but I don't recall it actually happening on other characters so it may be DDD-specific.

i tried it on some bigger chacacters (snake, dk, bowser) and it didn't work, i thought it was something to do with thme being half over the edge but it seems not.

edit: i meant the drop through on DDD,

better video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyMvHwNeIaA
the second time i got an up-air off pretty quick.

Zodac said:

i tried it on some bigger chacacters (snake, dk, bowser) and it didn't work, i thought it was something to do with thme being half over the edge but it seems not.

i got a higher quality vid with a dive and a sh up-air follow up which i'll up-load.

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Dive and SH-UAir? Are you aerial releasing them?

I dont think anything works for DK because he jumps really soon.

Yeah I hope this works out. Did anyone hack their Wii to test it? Remember, I am not endorsing you to hack your Wii and I am not telling you how to do it unless you do "not" message me, but I am just giving you the code for you to test this stuff in good detail.

I said I'd have some data up yesterday or this day, but the times I did the trick weren't enough to give me some hard data on the FDrop. I sorta knew this when I announced that I would test some chars, but wanted to try anyway, see if I could help out. Failed hard...
Anyway, I think it's best if anyone with a hacked Wii tests this first(see ^), so that we get cold hard numbers on this trick.
I'd first try it on all chars and see when they can jump out of it and what their best/worst options are, after that we can test our best/worst options and see which attacks beats what, so that we can get serious advantages out of this.
Pretty much means we must test EVERY aerial attack in the game and see what Falcon can do about it, it's craploads of work, but if this is worked out properly we could minimize the odds of failing and maximize the odds of an advantageous (spelled right?) position or even reliable kill setups . (that's me thinking positive here)

Any thoughts on this way of testing?
(And volunteers, ofcourse, people who have time and a hacked Wii)

Haha, I guess you could do that... However, I think it is much more effective to just be intuitive about it in different kinds of matchups... It's not like you're going to run into that situation (perfect grabbing at the ledge) everyday. Just feel what you think the opponent will do next and how he will react, then punish.