The brawl+ falcon metagame development discussion

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

I have been playing brawl+, and I love it, and I'm certain more people have that opinion, too.
So, as more people are starting to play brawl+, more brawl+ falcon mains will be born, and this thread is for brawl+ falcon's metagame to develop through discussion about new ideas, techniques, strategies, combo's etc.

This thread is all about brawl+ falcon, and to make falcon the best he possibly can be in brawl+.

I have nothing to do with the people who (only) play normal brawl, and main falcon in normal brawl, and are against the idea of brawl+. This thread is not to compare brawl to brawl+, as everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I like brawl+ more, so I trust you to accept my opinion, and simply refrain from posting here if you do not play/like brawl+.

This thread belongs on the falcon board, as it is still brawl we are playing (just with codes), and the character we are discussing is falcon.

To start of the discussion, here are a few notes I wrote down recently:

In B+:

Falcon combo's etc.:

Dthrow>walkoff sweet knee near ledge. (On fox/fastfallers) - needs more testing.

Dthrow CG on floaties/floatier characters. Depends on DI, can work when 'DI chased' (watch the opponents movement and react on that with a connecting regrab.) at lower percents.

Grab cancel - Cancel the dash animation with a grab. (Dash to shield to a).
Can be used to make above mentioned chaingrab at lower percent work in combination with DI chasing (if needed).

Fthrow>Dair spike (performed on yoshi) when the opponent (Yoshi) had 64% damage.
the forward throw inflicted 9% damage, setting yoshi on 73% damage when the spike occured.
Dependent on DI.

Bair/Uair/Ftilt/Flubbed knee lock>forced standup's usefullness in brawl+.
Missing a tech is easier, so pulling this (lock>forced standup) off is more common.
Though characters seem to stand up faster in B+.
Needs more testing.

Player-3 · Mar 18, 2009

your probobly going to get yelled at because technically not supposed to discuss b+ in the boards

but gj on the thread, i play B+ but i dont use falcon, i use fox

shanus · Mar 18, 2009

Uthrow works well on the FF'ers, also has a guaranteed uair follow on on many chars.

Jab -> Grab -> nair can work a lot of the time which can link into knee, uair, or others.

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

Zodac said:
we need a real topic for falcon in B+ and his combo's

i tested these on mario in training mode with standard codeset (whatever one was converted for pal)

there was one isue, i believe training mode help does not reconise falcon dive as a true combo for some reason but im pretty sure the listed is un-escapable.

most/all of these were done from 0% i'm just giving an example of what he can do in brawl +

true combo's:

raptor boost strings
->Falcon Dive
->up-air
->neutral-air
->down-air (really low %'s)
->foward-air
->back air (should hit forgot to test it)

down throw strings
->falcon kick
->sliding up-smash (around 80ish%)
->raptor boost (maybe fake but still useful)
->KNEE (get a grab and get a guarenteed sweetspot knee, this is great for koing and can work at mid-high %, i think this will be huge in brawl +)

dash attack strings
->jab->grab->X throw
->turbo jab

up throw strings
->up air
->falcon dive (says its not true in traing help but i beg to differ)

down air strings
->turbo jab
->jab->grab->X throw
->up air (higher %?)
->up tilt

back air strings
->dash attack
->forced stand-up->falcon paaauuunchh!@!@

neutral air
->grab (probably way more nair strings)

+all the old strings like
jab, jab, grab (which is way more useful cause you can combo out of throws)
flubbed knee, jab, grab

and here is a "fake combo" i did (although some of it is true combo)
jab->jab->grab->down throw->dash attack->up-tilt->knee (higher %) or f tilt (lower %'s)

basically keep your combo's going with falcons amaing jab->grab, too good

i'm sure there is way more, ill probably be playing to 2 am again

AND THIS WAS ON TINY, FLOATY MARIO! imagine bowser (or falcon >.>) lol

Zodac said:
firstly i have an importaint question:
does falcon dive not count in true combo's? i noticed grabs reset the counter, i think it treats falcon dive (B^) as a grab

i don't have anyone who knows what di is to play with me in training mode for 5 straight hours/i don't have anyone to play with period.
So this is the best i can do for now.

I'll try and get how much % they do and what % they work at next. maybe some vids of bigger combo's.

codest i'm using: European Codeset: 9th March 2009, Version 3.3 Beta. ~ 254 Lines
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6585221&postcount=3
fresh bonus off, everything else standard

all on mario cpu, note: moves don't stale in training mode

RAPTOR BOOST (IS TOP TIER MOVE) STRINGS
->up air
->n air
->f air
->d air
->falcon dive (Seems true)

everything combo's <3 RB

DASH ATTACK STRINGS
->jab->grab
->turbo jab
->F tilt (worked at 8%)
->n air (worked 50%ish)
->f air(worked at 63%->100%+)
->falcon dive (seems true)
->u air
->up tilt

DOWN THROW STRINGS
->falcon kick (works only at 20%?)
->f air
->n air
->b air
->d air
->down throw (maybe, doesn't count grabs as combo's)
->dash attack->up air->1 hit nair (true)
->dash attack->up air->knee (almost true must be only a couple frames off)
->dash attack->falcon dive (seems true)

UP THROW STRINGS
->u air-> falcon dive (dive seems true)
->falcon dive (seems true)

NEUTRAL AIR STRINGS (grounded opponent)
->grab
->turbo jab
->f tilt
->d tilt

DOWN AIR STRINGS(grounded opponent)(O_O @ d air)
->up air
->b air
->n air
->d air (worked at full hop @ 90%)
->grab
->turbo jab
->f tilt
->d tilt
->u tilt
->falcon dive (maybe)
->f smash (38% + works)
->d smash (63%ish works)
->u smash (2 hit)(worked at 50%)

UP AIR STRINGS (grounded opponent)
->falcon dive (maybe)

BACK AIR STRINGS (grounded opponent)
->dash attack
->forced stand-up->falcon paaaauuunch
->f tilt

FOWARD AIR STRINGS (flubbed, grounded)
->turbo jab
->jab->grab
tripped:
->u tilt
->f tilt (normal and low, high goes over the top)
->u smash (both hits)
->f smash

DOWN TILT STRINGS (vertical knockback)
->f tilt (worked at 54%)
->Dive (maybe)
->n air (worked at 95%)
->f air (sweet, at 90%)
->u air (at 65%ish)
not true, but very close:
->down air
->u smash
->f smash
->d smash

UP SMASH STRINGS (1 hit, 8% damage)
->f tilt
->jab->grab
->turbo jab

UP SMASH STRINGS (2 hit, 21% damage?)
->up air
->falcon dive (likely)

+get up attacks, trip attack, ledge attack >100%, 100%+, misc stuff.
->coming soon

F throw->sliding up smash almost true, nice tech chase.

falcon kick->almost any air move but not true, need more testing

back throw, down smash, foward smash, falcon punch, falcon dive, falcon kick (atm), up tilt, foward tilt, sweet foward air, (atm)->nothing at all

List of useful combo's:
up throw->up air, easy to land, opponent left in awkward position in air
down air->up air, decent kill move, easy to land
raptor boost->falcon dive, good damage racking at low %'s
down throw->dash attack->X, great combo starter
down throw->knee, great kill move
dash attack->knee, worth the risk for a kill
dash attack->jab->grab->X, damage racking/combo starter

AND REMEMBER ANYTHING THAT COMBO'S TO A JAB->GRAB STARTS ALL OF THE THROW STRINGS AGAIN!

Credit to Zodac for these posts/this info. I posted it here as I think it'll be usefull, and it sums up quite some things we will/have to discuss(imo).

And Thanks for your contribution shanus. Lets make falcon the best he can be in brawl+.

SmashBrother2008 · Mar 18, 2009

Don't they have Brawl+ Falcon boards? If you're going to abandon us, don't thank us with a slap in the face of information pertaining to a game that we don't play.

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

SmashBrother2008 said:
Don't they have Brawl+ Falcon boards? If you're going to abandon us, don't thank us with a slap in the face of information pertaining to a game that we don't play.

No there is no such thing as a brawl+ falcon board.
And how is this a slap in the face as it doesn't concern you..

shanus · Mar 18, 2009

How is that a slap in the face? A lot of players do play Brawl+ now and this is a perfectly legitimate thread to consolidate posts on it.

You don't need to click it if you don't want to read it.

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 18, 2009

I play B+...

And there are no character specific B+ boards. I think its ok here, for the time being. Just... no spamming B+ combo discoveries OK TKONTK?

And I'm thinking of maining lucario in B+ <_<

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
I play B+...

And there are no character specific B+ boards. I think its ok here, for the time being. Just... no spamming B+ combo discoveries OK TKONTK?

And I'm thinking of maining lucario in B+ <_<

I will only post in this thread.

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 18, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I will only post in this thread.

OK :D

Anyways, B+ falcon is pretty noice and all. He's definately good, but I hear B+ snake has a crazy combo into his fsmash XD

shanus · Mar 18, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
OK :D

Anyways, B+ falcon is pretty noice and all. He's definately good, but I hear B+ snake has a crazy combo into his fsmash XD

Not that I know of lol.

You can do more interesting things with C4 and other things, but not anything as absurd as that.

SmashBrother2008 · Mar 18, 2009

shanus said:
How is that a slap in the face? A lot of players do play Brawl+ now and this is a perfectly legitimate thread to consolidate posts on it.

You don't need to click it if you don't want to read it.

I may get a bit irritating if I start coming to these boards and there's just a jumbled mix of Brawl and Brawl+ topics. It could get in the way, it could get confusing and there really should be a special place to discuss B+ character as they are technically from a different game.

See:

Ayaz18 said:
I don't know what the debate is.

there is none if you think about it. You just gave a statement about looking into Brawl+

The mods have an entire section dedicated to Brawl+

If you want to discuss Brawl+, take it there.

The link above says:

» Smash World Forums » Super Smash Bros. Brawl » Brawl Character Discussion » Captain Falcon
» How To Make Falcon Higher on the Tier List

so discuss how to make Falcon higher on the tier list.

Not Brawl+

Thank you

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

SmashBrother2008 said:
I may get a bit irritating if I start coming to these boards and there's just a jumbled mix of Brawl and Brawl+ topics. It could get in the way, it could get confusing and there really should be a special place to discuss B+ character as they are technically from a different game.

See:

Ah yes, ayaz's quote.
Where he posted it, he really didnt read the current discussion going on there, but I'm not even going to bother.
And as there is no current other place to discuss brawl+ falcons metagame, we will simply do it here.
Again, if you do not like brawl+ or brawl+ falcon, simply dont click on this thread, and please refrain from posting.
thanks in advance.

Ayaz18 · Mar 18, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=209

Please take this there. This is where you should discuss anything regarding Brawl+ as literally everything that applies to Brawl+ Falcon does not apply to Brawl Falcon.

I don't know what the Mods are doing about Brawl+ development, but they HAVE added a section regarding Brawl+, so please keep it in the workshop

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 18, 2009

Ayaz18 said:
http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=209

Please take this there. This is where you should discuss anything regarding Brawl+ as literally everything that applies to Brawl+ Falcon does not apply to Brawl Falcon.

I don't know what the Mods are doing about Brawl+ development, but they HAVE added a section regarding Brawl+, so please keep it in the workshop

Thats the point ayaz, there are no CHARACTER SPECIFIC stuff regarding B+. Thats why I think this is acceptable until they make forums for that or something...

The snake "combo" I was talking about was ftilt > failed tech > jab lock > fsmash

Since ftilt now bounces them up, then have to tech or they eat the jab lock and they wake up into a fsmash.

Anyways, my friends need to update their B+ codes so I can play em, my lucario is getting rusty.

Ayaz18 · Mar 18, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
Thats the point ayaz, there are no CHARACTER SPECIFIC stuff regarding B+. Thats why I think this is acceptable until they make forums for that or something...

The snake "combo" I was talking about was ftilt > failed tech > jab lock > fsmash

Since ftilt now bounces them up, then have to tech or they eat the jab lock and they wake up into a fsmash.

Anyways, my friends need to update their B+ codes so I can play em, my lucario is getting rusty.

yeah but the point is that this is BRAWL FALCON

not Brawl+, if it has no room for disscussion, then don't discuss it unless you want to build your own website and talk about Brawl+

I mearly pointed out that the most relevant section regarding Brawl+ discussion is the workshop. I'm not trying to end this discussion, i'm just pointing out the things Mods will lock this for. They usually don't come down here but if they so happen too.......don't say I didn't warn you.

Zodac · Mar 18, 2009

new useful combo: jab, jab, grab, d throw, dash attack, falcon dive. (awesome damage racker)

things that almost true comboed and are still useful: up smash (1 hit)
->up tilt
->d tilt
->"everything"(says on notes)

up smash (2 hit)
->SH knee

things i wanna test: true: back air->jab
i haven't tested any airerial strings on characters floating in air

("fake combo") i'm going to try and get these combo's recorded:
combo 1: up smash (1 hit)->jab->jab>grab(1 pummel)->D throw->Dash attack->up tilt->falcon kick

combo2: jab->jab->grab (1 pummel)->D throw->Dash attack->up air->falcon dive
^this is actually possible to pull off in a real game. might even be true on some chars.

still need to add what % ture combo's work at + knockback and damage

Skip2MaLoo · Mar 18, 2009

snake can jab lock? o_O I thought jab locks are excluded in b+

Revven · Mar 18, 2009

Skip2MaLoo said:
snake can jab lock? o_O I thought jab locks are excluded in b+

Yeah they are in the newest sets. We sped up the bounce animation.

Also, ayaz, if you didn't notice, B+ threads are spreading all around in the other character boards. The Smash Workshop really isn't a place to discuss character specific things like this thread is doing. It'll get lost in the sea of abyss and become cluttered looking if we had a thread for each character (much less, keeping them on the first page).

It just wouldn't work, so, please bear with this thread in here.

shanus · Mar 18, 2009

Yes ayaz, this is only 1 thread which in no way impedes on the quality of the falcon boards. It is pertinent falcon discussion, and any players interested in B+ falcon might come here assuming itd be here anyway. I fail to see how it is a problem for you. If its just distaste for B+ that is fine, then please don't view the thread. But asking for the thread to be locked is silly as well as it is in no way damaging to your community.

Ayaz18 · Mar 18, 2009

shanus said:
Yes ayaz, this is only 1 thread which in no way impedes on the quality of the falcon boards. It is pertinent falcon discussion, and any players interested in B+ falcon might come here assuming itd be here anyway. I fail to see how it is a problem for you. If its just distaste for B+ that is fine, then please don't view the thread. But asking for the thread to be locked is silly as well as it is in no way damaging to your community.

i'm not asking for a lock

Just warning you guys about what can happen............ Mods have a tendency of locking topics that "don't belong"

Zeallyx · Mar 18, 2009

Here is a video of 2 brawl plus combo's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcohOuVWSQY

The first combo:

Dash attack to Bair causing a forced standup to Bair to Bair to sweet knee

The second combo:

Mostly about the Uair to sweet knee (kill) combo.
As knowing the percentages for said combo can be usefull in quite some situations.
(Uair to sweet knee seems to work when the opponent has around 55 percent damage).

Revven · Mar 18, 2009

Good **** TKONTK, liking this info. If only you had a capture card though.

Still, at least the combos are somewhat visible.

Zodac · Mar 18, 2009

ok, i think there are heaps of undiscovered airerial combo's on grounded opponents, most involving neutral-airs. also a sh sweet knee to dash attack/jab should work. i would think there would be more back-air stuff too.
(i also haven't tested aerials on opponents in the air yet)

also i think the quality of that vid is bad cause your recording a 50 fps tv to a 60 fps video recorder, happened to me so i hooked it up to a plasma with 60fps component cables

F5Hazardousdoc · Mar 19, 2009

I got good quality <_<

But I don't use falcon in B+ XD

Maybe I should, but... lucario is too much fun XD

sMexy-Blu · Mar 19, 2009

He doesn't need Wavedash. All he needs is L cancel and more hitstun. Falcon ****

Zeallyx · Mar 19, 2009

Update:

(In brawl+, offcourse)
Flubbed knee>Second jump>Dair (spike/launch), seems to be a very effective (offstage kill) combo. (Can KO characters with a bad recovery at lower percents when the Dair in this combo is used as a spike and the combo takes place offstage). So this combo can be an effective gimp, or used after an Uthrow/Dthrow when near the edge. (one has to take DI into account offcourse, though.).

Plum · Mar 19, 2009

sMexy-Blu said:
He doesn't need Wavedash. All he needs is L cancel and more hitstun. Falcon ****

One hit starts ****. That is why I <3 Falcon in B+.

Auto L canceling and hitstun make Falcon too good XD

It is great to see flubbed knee have more options off stage. Stringing it with Uair was always great, but into a spike... That is just sexy.

I don't have my SD card with me right now to go and figure it out myself, but does anyone know if Falcon Punch is still guaranteed on a force get up Bair? If it does, what are the percentages it can be pulled in B+?

luvs2pluck · Mar 20, 2009

Alright I was hoping for a topic like this to be created. A lot of the combos I use have already been posted on the first page, but Ill add a few I like.

At 0% I find its usually best to UThrow > Uair > Uair

At mid percents 20-40% is when I find Falcon has the easiest time doing awesome combos:

Grounded Dair > to USmash is a true combo at this percentage (Dair has so much ridiculous hitstun in Brawl+, I love it)

Dthrow > Uair (or Nair) > Uair > Uair (or sweet knee if you run out of space) > Sweet knee. This is definitly the hardest Falcon combo to pull off, mainly because of how much stage space you need (think most of FD), and the trickyness of perfectly reacting to the DI of you opponent from the Dthrow (but once you get the first Nair/Uair in youre good for the rest of the combo). All aerials have to be spaced (hit with the right hitbox of Uair) and shorthopped - fastfalled perfectly. It is a true combo and is pretty much guaranteed death for any character hit with it. Works on any lightish - mid weight character (think Pikachu/Mario) and above

As for finishing percentages 90-110%:

Dthrow > Sweet knee. Usually best option, but remember opponent gets wide range of DI from Dthrow, so can be tricky

Dtilt > Sweet knee Bit easier to land the knee because Dtilt is less DIable than Dthrow, but landing Dtilt is definitely harder than landing a grab. Take your pick

Grounded Dair > Sweet Knee (Works to even higher percentages, love that hitstun)

Using Brawl+ 3.4

Red-Blue · Mar 20, 2009

I lol'd at this thread.

Soooo much hatred.

Player-3 · Mar 20, 2009

Best combo in B+ ever is the G-reg paunch.

Zodac · Mar 21, 2009

new discovery - falcon drop on DDD, may not even be + exclusive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZpGARj8VM

CrAzY $41+

shanus · Mar 24, 2009

Also, expect 2 nice new treats for falcon in the next version.

The ability to reverse knee, and lower knockback on raptor boost ;-)

Skip2MaLoo · Mar 24, 2009

shanus said:
Also, expect 2 nice new treats for falcon in the next version.

The ability to reverse knee, and lower knockback on raptor boost ;-)

lolwut
reverse knee

Zeallyx · Mar 24, 2009

Skip2MaLoo said:
lolwut
reverse knee

Like in melee :D
sweet spot at around his booteeh
aaawhyeeaah

FAILchion- · Mar 24, 2009

I'll leave this thread open, since it's a good idea. But I only wish you'd make it a bit later... I'd like to finish Brawl first before we get into Brawl+, since Brawl+ is still being coded/subject to change everytime a new BrawlPlusery comes out. >__>

Zeallyx · Mar 24, 2009

Falchion- said:
I'll leave this thread open, since it's a good idea. But I only wish you'd make it a bit later... I'd like to finish Brawl first before we get into Brawl+, since Brawl+ is still being coded/subject to change everytime a new BrawlPlusery comes out. >__>

You dont really have a choice, as it isnt violating any TOS, and this is the place for this thread atm.

Skip2MaLoo · Mar 24, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Like in melee :D
sweet spot at around his booteeh
aaawhyeeaah

wait, so they changed hitbox or made the opponent travel where falcon's pushing when hit by the knee?

shanus · Mar 24, 2009

It works in that at the same time the sweetspot knee is out, there is actually a flub hitbox on his backside.

We recoded that flub hitbox to convert to a sweetspot knee with a hit in the backwards direction. Pretty sexy change

Zeallyx · Mar 24, 2009

shanus said:
It works in that at the same time the sweetspot knee is out, there is actually a flub hitbox on his backside.

We recoded that flub hitbox to convert to a sweetspot knee with a hit in the backwards direction. Pretty sexy change

- YESZ

<3

10<3's

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