Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

SamuraiPanda · Mar 19, 2009

For those of you who don't know, here is a definition of planking (there may be other definitions that could work better): "The act of using Meta Knight to stall by continually re-grabbing the edge while using air attacks and edge invincibility to prevent an opponent from attacking or dealing damage." The definition extends beyond MK, but is rarely an issue for any other character, so he is often at the center of this debate.

The word planking became popular after an infamous video of the player, Plank, using ledgestalling as a strategy to win a pivotal game in a large tournament (the ledgestalling begins at around the 4 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=awI8Zz1EIE8 ). Since then (the video is rather old now), planking has evolved and gotten worse, making the strategy much more difficult to deal with for many characters on most stages. This has made planking into a much more widespread, controversial, and common occurrence, sparking this poll's creation.

There are 3 options available in this poll:

1. Ban by judge ruling

Allow a judge to decide whether or not to take action against what may or may not be planking. If you are being planked, you have the option of pausing the game and getting a judge if you feel that your opponent is breaking the rules (of course, pausing at critical moments would be dealt with as well). The punishment would vary from judge to judge, and would likely be one of the following:
- The planking player loses the set
- The planking player loses the match
- The match must be restarted, with no planking (least likely of the three)

2. Institute an edge grab limit

For those who don't know, one of the statistics that the game records after a match is over (in the "winner" screen) is how many times the played grabbed the edge. This rule, which originated in Japan, uses that number, and if time runs out, a player who exceeds a certain number of edge grabs would receive a loss for that game. The number of edge grabs is something that must be determined, of course, and it will take some time to come to a consensus as to what that may be. Japan uses 70 edge grabs in their 10 minute games as the limit, which may or may not be a good number for us to use as well.

And for those of you worried that you "might" grab the edge too many times in a given match because you like sitting there, then you'd be surprised as to how many times you'd have to grab the edge in order to hit a number even near 70. Next time you play a few friendlies, check out the number of times you grabbed the edge, just so you have an idea just how much stalling is necessary to hit such a high number.

For more information and discussion on this potential new rule (that some tournaments are already experimenting with) you can check out this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221198

3. Do not ban/Too early to vote

The most self-explanatory of the three options, this one could be that you just think its too early to ban planking, or that it should not be banned at all. We are only dealing with planking right now, so if you think planking could be a problem in the future, then this is probably the best option for you.

MorphedChaos · Mar 19, 2009

Edge Grab limit, its very easy to enforce, and its the most easy to modify.

Not to mention since its set by a computer instead of a human, it'll be universal.

AndreVeloso · Mar 19, 2009

For making the game a bit more fun, yes it should be banned. It's hard enough beating metaknight how it is. I have to agree about how 70 is actually a big number to grab the ledge. 7 ledge grabs a minute is a good average to stand by.

Ussi · Mar 19, 2009

Use Pikachu. What are you gonna do about tjolt you plankers muahahahaha.

EDIT: I'd say like put a rule like Ike's aether, you have to land on the ground after grabbing the ledge 5 times without touching the ground.

EDIT # 2: I mean like hack so that the ledge is not grabable.

but the edge grab limit sounds good too. 70 sounds good.

:mad: · Mar 19, 2009

It's hard to really say. I'm not a fan of any stalling. Might as well have a judge's ruling on the subject.

DtJ XeroXen · Mar 19, 2009

I'll be voting at a later time, because I can't really decide at the moment.

But I am partial to banning planking, to let it be known.

Flamingo · Mar 19, 2009

IMO planking is a defensive maneuver, however it is abusable. I personally think a ledge grab limit is the most fair, and the easiest to enforce, due to the count being recorded, and shown at the end of match screen.

I don't see it any different than DDD's infinite's. Solution: Don't get grabbed.

Solution to planking: Get the % lead, and the MK can't plank.

|RK| · Mar 19, 2009

Ah well, Lucario could cut that in half. Double Jump to wall, cling, jump and fire Aura Sphere, Extreme Speed to ledge, jump, fire Aura Sphere, then grab ledge, drop down and repeat.

Magik0722 · Mar 19, 2009

I voted wrong i wanted option 2, but i doub tthat will make a difference, anyways im agreeing with flamingo if this gets limited or banned so should DDDs infinite if people are acting so bureaucratic about it why not this also?

☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆ · Mar 19, 2009

honestly people, is it really that hard to jump ur *** down and counter plank? or spike ? or gimp? hell no it isnt hard at all so dont ***** about planking just jump off the side and put a hurtin on a *****

Flamingo · Mar 19, 2009

RK Joker said:
Ah well, Lucario could cut that in half. Double Jump to wall, cling, jump and fire Aura Sphere, Extreme Speed to ledge, jump, fire Aura Sphere, then grab ledge, drop down and repeat.

your Dair messes with Planking. Jump off the ledge, I DAIR YOU!

Pun intended!

King~ · Mar 19, 2009

<.<; u do realize some charcters cant do anything about it with out a high risk of losing their stock right.(not everyone has 5 jumps you now, or projectiles that crawl across the stage)

i voted to the edge grab limit

also you should link to a video in the first post for those who have never witnessed or had it happen to them

bobson · Mar 19, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
"The act of using Meta Knight to stall by continually re-grabbing the edge while using air attacks and edge invincibility to prevent an opponent from attacking or dealing damage."

So we'd only be banning Metaknight mains from planking?

TLMSheikant · Mar 19, 2009

gangstakirby said:
honestly people, is it really that hard to jump ur *** down and counter plank? or spike ? or gimp? hell no it isnt hard at all so dont ***** about planking just jump off the side and put a hurtin on a *****

Seems u havent played against metaknight.

Remzi · Mar 19, 2009

The edge grab limit is really the perfect solution. Let me personally assure you that you will NEVER reach even 35 unless you are deliberately ledge stalling.

70 is way too high, but the idea of an edge grab limit is definitely a good one.

TLMSheikant · Mar 19, 2009

I think its fair the edge grab limit prevents excesive stalling while still allowing defensive regrabbing so I voted for the 2nd option.

B!squick · Mar 19, 2009

King Yoshi said:
<.<; u do realize some charcters cant do anything about it with out a high risk of losing their stock right.(not everyone has 5 jumps you now, or projectiles that crawl across the stage)

i voted to the edge grab limit

also you should link to a video in the first post for those who have never witnessed or had it happen to them

I agree with all of this. Seriously, it's like, word for word. And I'd love to see a vid of it action. I'm one of those 'only heard about it' people.

AndreVeloso · Mar 19, 2009

An ledge grab limit wouldn't work as good as I hoped though. There should be a limit for some characters but a little less for Metaknight. As Metaknights can go stocks ahead (easily) they can just plank for a minute while wasting a minute and meaning less time for an opponent to come back. I can see this being a hard topic to sort out fairly.

Xiahou Dun · Mar 19, 2009

It's not very sportsmanly or fun to play against but you might as well ban spamming projectiles.

No.

Smasher89 · Mar 19, 2009

Is there any vids of this were someone takes % lead early and does this for the rest of the match in a tournament?, preferably from a tournament final.

Or just any vids were a really good player get owned by this and cannot do anything (requirement is that it´s from a tournament, friendlies do not count). If there is no vids of this to back up it´s "brokeness" then it´s obviously not proven broken...

bobson · Mar 19, 2009

JayDeth said:
I agree with all of this. Seriously, it's like, word for word. And I'd love to see a vid of it action. I'm one of those 'only heard about it' people.

Come on, seriously? How can you vote to ban a technique you've never even seen used?

Planking has not yet shown itself to be broken. We can have this discussion again when someone wins a major tournament doing nothing but planking.
Edit: If it is to be banned, though, the ledge grab limit would be the best option.

Sphyra · Mar 19, 2009

I'm all for limiting the amount of times you can grab the edge. By finding a good number of ledge grabs permitted you can still allow players to use the ledge defensively for a time while making sure they can't base their entire play on using it to force a time out.

Toby. · Mar 19, 2009

Axis Gaming - SK92 (1) vs. Plank (2). Round 2

Plank stalls for 3 entire minutes. Start watching from the 4 minute mark to see the love in action.

I'll probably vote for the second option.

King~ · Mar 19, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8(infamous video of from axis)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

just two quick vids

Terios the Hedgehog · Mar 19, 2009

Option Numero Dos.

70 grabs. Let's put that in perspective. 3/70 roughly 21 grabs a stock. Pretty sure I rarely hit 70 in a 3 match set.

Unless it's like Norfair or something.

Dastrn · Mar 19, 2009

I voted "don't ban" because I think banning things that aren't winning tournaments is for sissies. If it's so good, why is no one winning tournaments because of it?

Toby. · Mar 19, 2009

Oh and as a reference, in the vid I counted plank grabbing the edge 68 times in those final 3 minutes.

The problem I have with the second option is that it fails to account for situations where the planker simply stalls the last 30 seconds of a match if they're unsure whether they can win. If they do this it shouldn't push them over the limit, yet they are still halting the match to win by %.

edit: I think its pretty obvious that its really good. Simply looking at the properties of MK's attacks, his jumps and the duration of ledge invincibility makes that pretty clear.

Tennet · Mar 19, 2009

BengalsRZ said:
The edge grab limit is really the perfect solution. Let me personally assure you that you will NEVER reach even 35 unless you are deliberately ledge stalling.

70 is way too high, but the idea of an edge grab limit is definitely a good one.

I agree 100%.

#2

∫unk · Mar 19, 2009

Pros in socal have found ways to camp or be nearly untouchable on stage which is why I think there need to be a judge and edge grab rule

We've already had the 60 ledge grab rule for 8 minutes but that's still too high someone I played was on the ledge for over 7 of those 8 minutes and they got 67 ledge grabs

And planking and camping are winning in socal one of the best regions but more on stage camping watch bio 2 vids

Melomaniacal · Mar 19, 2009

I see no reason to not use the ledge grab count rule. The only issue is deciding what the number should be.

MorphedChaos · Mar 19, 2009

Might have to be 50 or 45 for 8 minutes, still unable to get reasonably (If yo do, you suck) but its too low to reliably plank.

B!squick · Mar 19, 2009

DastrnMarco said:
I voted "don't ban" because I think banning things that aren't winning tournaments is for sissies. If it's so good, why is no one winning tournaments because of it?

The vids make it pretty clear how good it is, how easy it is to exploit, and showcase that it can, has, and probably will win tournaments. It's things like this that Brawl+ should be advertising. The added floatiness would probably make Planking alot easier to deal with.

tcranter said:
Oh and as a reference, in the vid I counted plank grabbing the edge 68 times in those final 3 minutes.

The problem I have with the second option is that it fails to account for situations where the planker simply stalls the last 30 seconds of a match if they're unsure whether they can win. If they do this it shouldn't push them over the limit, yet they are still halting the match to win by %.

edit: I think its pretty obvious that its really good. Simply looking at the properties of MK's attacks, his jumps and the duration of ledge invincibility makes that pretty clear.

Very true. And someone brought up the point about Norfair, that stage is made of ledges. A limit for each stage or based on the number of ledges a stage has might work.

MorphedChaos · Mar 19, 2009

JayDeth said:
The vids make it pretty clear how good it is, how easy it is to exploit, and showcase that it can, has, and probably will win tournaments. It's things like this that Brawl+ should be advertising. The added floatiness would probably make Planking alot easier to deal with.

Very true. And someone brought up the point about Norfair, that stage is made of ledges. A limit for each stage or based on the number of ledges a stage has might work.

Norfair is the only exception that should be made to the rule, otherwise a low number works.

Ice_smash · Mar 19, 2009

I would just like to strongly encourage people to read what Sirlin says on the matter of banning tactics like this. I think what he says here applies very well to the situation with planking.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

Sirlin on the criteria of a ban said:
The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

Here’s an example of a completely defined game element. In the card game Magic: The Gathering, if a particular card is deemed to be too good, then it is possible to ban it. One can define completely that “that card cannot be used.” There is no fear of players still “sort of” using it, in the same way they could still “sort of” repeat the moves from the fighting game, or “sort of” camp for 2 minutes 59 seconds above. The card is a discrete entity that can feasibly be banned.

I think the second paragraph is especially fitting.

Joshu · Mar 19, 2009

Where is the option for "Rename Planking to Shenaniganing?"

I don't want to vote in the others I want to vote for Shenaniganing.

Brinzy · Mar 19, 2009

Looking at that Sirlin thing, it could turn into a slippery slope. If the final vote is that there should be an edge limit, I think it'd be hard to find a number that is low enough so they can't abuse planking as much but also high enough so as to, obviously, not penalize someone for breaking it. If I were in favor of this, I'd go with 30 ledge grabs.

My vote, however, goes that it's too early.

Terios the Hedgehog · Mar 19, 2009

It's not exactly banning planking. It's limiting it. You can still do it. It's like how we "ban" items but we don't make Peaches throw away their beam swords. We "ban" stages but if both people agree aren't we allowed to play on them anyway? (not totally sure on that lol)

Smasher89 · Mar 19, 2009

Snakes nair goes through edgestall on Norfair, I´m pretty sure other attacks were you can jump in with a good angle would hit through it too...

Sphyra · Mar 19, 2009

Ice_smash said:
I would just like to strongly encourage people to read what Sirlin says on the matter of banning tactics like this. I think what he says here applies very well to the situation with planking.

Edit: nm

Ledge grab rule is pretty defined anyway.

link64e · Mar 19, 2009

It's still too early. Give it a couple of months and check the tournament videos to see if anybody can stop a planker. I haven't seen a video of anybody winning a tournament using planking either.

Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

Should Planking be Banned?

Ban planking by judge ruling

Institute an edge grab limit

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