Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

Meta Knight

• Battlefield: Strike this in the begining. THe platforms help MK more than they help you, but it's an overall even stage besides that.
• Final Destination: Lucario's best starter VS. MK, which sadly means that he'll strike it. This is your best counterpick if Pictochat or Japes are banned. It's got all of the essentials: a high ceiling, room to charge aura sphere, and room to avoid MK.
• Smashville: Strike this in the begining. This is a good MK stage, primarilly because he can abuse the platform more than we can. There's also not much room to run. IT's not unwinnable, though, and opinions seemed to be mixed on this. This is probebly the stage you'll fight first on, so you might want to be familiar with it.
• Yoshi's Island: A bad stage for Lucario in this match-up. There's not enough room to charge AS, and the platforms help him more than us. LIke SV, it's not unwinnable, but you'll want to be familiar with it.

• Castle Siege: Decent stage. Part one is cramped, part two is risky, part three is in our favor. There are better choices, though.
• Pokemon Stadium 1: One of our better choices. The stage allows for mix-ups, and its size keeps us alive. The only downside is the ability of MK to stall on some of the transformations.

• Brinstar: Bad stage. Tight blast zones lead to early deaths, and tornado traps run rampant. Keep note that the acid does 14% each hit, and it can also save you from a gimp in some situations.
• Jungle Japes: Great stage. Wide blast zones keep us alive, water prevents gimps (and yet opens new ones up), and not much is abusable on either side. try to hold the center, or the right side because of the water's flow.
• Rainbow Cruise: Ban this. Period.
• Pictochat: Here's FlamewaveK's quote on the subject. Long read, but amazing.
  

  - You have plenty of space to Roll away and charge aurasphere.
  
  - Some of the Transformations are double edge'd swords
  
  - CONTROL THE LEFT SIDE/MIDDLE.
  
  - There boundaries are short, so be wary of SHUTTLE LOOP,
  however the area below is pretty small so recovering from below aint such a bad idea.
  -----------------
  Can Kill You - 3
  Spikes (ground)
  Piranha plant
  Minecart
  
  Can Hurt You - 3
  Spikes (sides)
  Rockets
  Fireballs
  
  Contain Wall(s) -5
  Box/Bricks
  Singing guy
  Whale
  Boat
  Large slanted line with eyes
  
  Other - 16
  Clock
  Side flags
  Swinging platform
  Five slanted lines
  Farm with platform on the edges
  Middle platform thing with flag
  Platform with ladders
  Fourteen small platforms
  Side springs
  Blowing face
  Pine trees
  House
  Platform ferris wheel
  Two slanted platforms/Boobs/Bra/Slanted Eyes
  Umbrella stand
  Tree
  
  Theres a 6/27 chance of a Hazard that can damage you
  
  a 3/27 chance that a Hazard may kill you
  
  and a 5/27 chance that a wall will appear for you to get dtilt *****/a free aurasphere charge.
  
  1st Change is in 2 seconds or so in the match.
  
  The stage won't repeat another drawing until all 27 have passed, each drawing appearing every 13.333 seconds and lasting 13.333 seconds.
  
  in an 8 minute match there are 24 drawings [tested this myself] So a drawing will NEVER repeat.
  
  the stage will NOT end on a transformation. ... but if you have the lead you can just roll away those last seconds anyway lolzzzzzz
  ------------------------
  Spikes (ground)
  
  Double Edged Sword here. if you grab MK you get a free throw into the spikes on him.
  
  He can obviously Dtilt you for some damage and then dsmash when the drawing goes away.
  
  Your Fsmash goes through the stage walls but so does his tilts/smashes.
  
  Ussually if you don't end up next to the eachother the MK won't aggress you.
  
  In that case, free Aurasphere charge.
  
  if MK Grounded SLs here he risks getting hit by the spike.(theres an area where he can do it and be safe with the B/Jump Cancel but its small)
  
  Piranha plant
  Deals 10 Damage and has good KB
  
  If he tries to uthrow you under the plant he gets hit.
  
  if DI Fthrow AWAY can avoid the piranha from under it.
  
  if you grab MK under you get a pretty inescapable uthrow/dthrow.
  
  if you grab him from the sides he has to DI fthrow straight forward not to get hit by the plant.
  
  if Meta grounded SLs under the piranha he gets hit by the plant.
  
  Minecart
  
  Does 10 damage on hit with good KB
  
  Pretty suuuuuuuure he gets hit if he tries to uthrow you and you hit the cart.
  
  You can get a pretty good uthrow set-up into the cart too.
  
  If you're silly you can stand on the card and watch MK get hit when he tries to SL you lol.
  
  Obvious can interfere with his Grounded SL
  
  Spikes (sides)
  
  Does 30% on hit
  
  VERY GOOD FOR YOU
  
  Lets you live longer ussually which is very good.
  
  But you Take damage, which is both good and bad, depending on the situation.
  [You're luc mains you should know this!]
  
  MK can't really force you into this with throws besides dthrow [and SLing/Nairing you if you DI up] where you can with fthrow/backthrow [which throw in the PERFECT angles.
  
  This Can save you from a gimp sometimes!
  
  Remember to DI into the floor and tech it when hit.
  
  Rockets
  
  Both Rockets do 25% each.
  
  You'll be happy when you're controlling the right side when these pop up [assuming MK is on the other side]
  
  If you get hit, no real biggie. you can choose to SDI it so you don't get hit into the other rocket or not.
  
  these don't really have enough hitstun to kill you.
  
  so long as you momentum cancel you should be fine.
  
  
  Fireballs
  
  lolololol Fireballs.
  
  People ***** about this even though it just does like 1% a hit.
  
  anyways.
  
  shuts down his UpB as an option while under him, while the right one can hit him sometimes if he SH aerials.
  
  Boxes
  
  If you're caught next to MK in this.
  
  JUMP OUT.
  
  if you're blocked by a wall roll away so you don't get hit by his tilts/smashes near you and just chill/charge aurasphere.
  
  not much MK can do lol.
  
  maybe hit him with fsmash when he's not looking?
  
  Singing guy
  Provides a wall on the right side.
  
  similar to PS1's Ground Transformation except you can actually fight on the side where the majority of the ground is.
  
  Not Too troublesome, but the chance of dtilt for 13 seconds or so is irking.
  
  keep on the left I guess.
  
  Whale
  As always with these walls.
  
  If your caught in throw MK out if you can, if not don't get tilted into it.
  
  pretty easy to not get dtilt ***** here due to whale taking most of the middle tho~
  
  Boat
  I'M ON A BOAT
  Ok I remember now
  
  On this stage try to throw MK out, and he's not in there to begin with just chillax lol.
  
  try to be under the boat though, so he can't poke you with a dair.
  
  charge an AS or something man.
  
  Large slanted line with eyes
  Watch out you can Dtilt comboed on the left!
  
  You won't get killed vertically though I guess.
  
  MK doesn't really have a vertical killer besides Grounded SL tho so its not a huge gain.
  
  Clock
  bah
  
  I think this one helps MK more tbh.
  
  makes his SL a little safer/faster to get back to the ground >>
  
  not TOO bad though.
  
  Side flags
  
  HELPS YOU RECOVER
  
  but MK can SL you on them so don't Airdodge into them!
  
  Swinging platform
  
  Helps you get your feet planted on something solid and get away sometimes I suppose.
  
  doesn't really help MK that much.
  
  Five slanted lines
  
  Mess with MK's SL
  
  the 2 on the right can help you live as well.
  
  Pretty decentttt
  
  Farm with platform near the edges.
  
  Helps You recover.
  
  Better then the flags.
  
  Sometimes you can get a grab kill on MK early here (!).
  
  Middle platform thing with flag
  
  Just your average platform.
  
  nothing special.
  
  Platform with ladders
  
  You can do some ladder tricksies here.
  
  hold on dair/hold on again
  
  hold on/airdodge immeaditally
  
  fair -> jump fair -> hold on -> get your jump restored.
  
  but it doesn't really help VS MK lol.
  
  Fourteen small platforms
  
  uh these kinda mess with his SL but idk if you can really punish it here unless he gets forced into his techroll.
  
  Side springs
  
  You can Dair/Double Team off the platform, crouch and become virtually unhittable here LOL.
  
  or you could roll away and Charge AS but that opens you up to spring -> dair [you can shield it if you reactions fast enough tho]
  
  I am PRETTY sure MK can't hit you with spring dair if you crouch but someone test that.
  
  I also think MK MIGHT be able to nab you with dtilt/dsmash on the spring below if you hug
  the wall lol.
  
  when it despawns it puts you at the ledge/a kinda bad position vs mk
  
  You can remedy this by jumping into the spring [airdodge or wait or dair depending if you think he'll SL/Jump Aerial or not!]
  
  Blowing face
  
  Bad.
  
  it forces you closer to the ledge.
  
  even if you roll away to the right MKs fast enough that he can chase you with tornado
  
  Pine trees
  
  These can interfere with Grounded SL and force MK into the techroll thing at the right areas.
  
  but besides that doesn't really add much besides platforms and places to land on.
  
  House
  
  Again Forces MK into that techroll/glide trip thing at certain places with a Grounded SL
  
  doesn't really change that much.
  
  Platform ferris wheel
  
  SPIN SPIN SPIN
  
  helps both sides equally IMO.
  
  Can help you land sometimes I guess.
  
  Two slanted platforms/Boobs/Bra/Slanted Eyes
  
  Doesn't really change that much.
  
  AGAIN forces MK into that techroll/glide/trip whatever at certain angles if he Grounded SLs
  
  Umbrella stand
  
  Forces MK into that whatever it is when he Grounded SLs at the right areas.
  
  doesn't really change much.
  
  
  Big *** Tree with 3 Platforms
  
  if Grounded SLs under these platforms he's ALWAYS gonna get stuck in that whatever you want to call it animation.
  
  abuse this.
  
  
  **** THIS WAS A ***** TO FORMAT </3
  
  Castle Siege later because I'm lazy after this hard work.
  
  
  OH YEAH ANOTHER RANDOM PICTOCHAT TIBIT.
  
  If its drawing you can react to the drawings of the drawings with hitboxes and Double Team them if your not in hitstun/lag or anything.
  
  I've done it so can you!
  ----------------------------------------
  
  Castle Siege:
  
  starts to change every 40 seconds
  
  transition is about 5+ seconds [depends on how scractchy the disc is, less scratches faster loading, more scratches more time in transition]
  
  You can get a free stock on MK if you grab him during the transitions to Castle3 or Castle1's offstage zones [while still in the walkoff transition stage]
  
  MK cannot glide under the stages here.
  
  if he breaks out the bottom MK falls to his death and lucario pops right up.
  
  However if MK tries this trick both characters can jump before they die, while this still might mean death on Castle3 [still try though!, I haven't been able to ACTUALLY try recover VS a MK that did this to me there.]
  
  You can still recover on Castle1 via wallclinging or even regrabing the ledge again if you curve well enough.
  
  however.. theres the MK to worry about so be careful.
  
  you can try to dair him for lols I guess.
  
  Does a whole cycle three and a half times [ending an 8 minute match on time out in Castle2]
  
  Castle 1:
  this has a normal ceiling and kinda medium small boundaries on the side.
  
  Not a lot of space to roll away.
  
  and if you're playing a more defensive MK its harder to fight him when he controls the left side.
  
  However, its very hard to get gimped here if you DI towards the stage offstage.
  
  If you can tech/keep on clinging.
  
  sooner or later the transition will save you.
  
  I've been able to survive dsf and tyrant 2 v 1 trying to edgeguard me on castle 1 and the transition ended up saving me.
  
  So its definitely possible if a scrub like me can do it.
  
  Castle 2:
  
  Remember on the transition to castle2 you'll end up on the highest platform.
  
  for this reason go to middle left if possible or roll all the way to the walk-off,or get ready to buffer a ledgedrop.
  
  this has a higher ceiling then normal.
  
  You got PLENTY of space to roll/space.
  
  unstale your moves by jabbing the platform over and over.
  
  Watch out for Extended hitbox Shuttle loop [both aerial/ground]
  
  if mk does his shfl fair on the statue its a lot laggier because of the hitlag.
  
  You can abuse the extended hitboxes on the statues too.
  
  
  also
  
  DO NOT BE AFRAID TO CAMP AT THE CORNER.
  
  Just watch and bait that obvious dash grab.
  
  and when they smarten up/lost their stock.
  
  just play smart [shield/jump to the platform above when needed/roll/short hop air dodge]
  
  and see if you get that grab/cross-up/crossing nair,dair,bair.
  
  Castle3:
  
  Easily the best part of the stage for lucario.
  
  the ceiling is EVER SO SLIGHTLY lower but the boundaries on the side are more like FDs rather then being close to the edge.
  
  Pretty much just flat with some tilts with a hump on the left.
  
  You can't cling to the sides though.
  
  
  
  
  and uh thats it.

  Click to expand...

  Thanks for the contribution.

• Smashville: This is a small stage and oddly enough probably your best starter against DK only because you have a better chance of killing him earlier but the same goes for you...

• Final Destination: Pretty much the same as Smashville just a little larger so you'll be trading survivability for killing power. It really just comes down to which stage you're the most comfortable on.

• Battlefield: This is a Love/Hate stage against DK. He can cargo spike you pretty easily on this stage so don't forget to hold UP or DOWN once cargo'd, do not forget this! Once getting him above you the platforms become your friend by keeping him off the floor and making it easier to "juggle" him. But on the stage DK can camp the plats like no other, reaching through the plats above with up-tilt and up-smash and spacing with f-tilt, d-tilt, and giant punch below makes it hard to get into DK's face on this stage, luckily we have aura sphere

• Yoshi's Island: Again this is a Love/Hate stage against DK. It's our best neutral and possible our best CP, yet DK can abuse this stage so much that it will make you think twice before taking him here. With the sloped edges he can start off stage and Spinny-Kong most of the stage with invincibility frames because of the sloped edge trick. And again he can camp the middle pretty well.

• Lylat Cruise: *See Yoshi's Island* (basically the same rules apply, plats to camp and UP+B invincibility trick)

• Brinstar: I don't know all the reasons why Brinstar is a good DK stage (someone fill me in) but I know it is. He can kill you mad early so just stay away from this stage. Some parts of the stage make attacks stay out longer than normal (the gooie pillars and center stage part that breaks) thus giant punch comes to mind. Also the lava keeps him from getting gimped most of the time.

• Delfino:

  Darknid said:

  There's also a few other unknown stages like Delfino. DK has some stupid tricks there. Wall infinites (he can grab you and carry you to the wall, so it's harder to avoid), cargo throwing you into the kill walls, spiking you through water.

  Click to expand...

  this^ also I should point out this stage can be gay against DK's recovery *shrugs*

• Jungle Japes: STRIKE THIS STAGE! I cannot stress this enough against DK! he lives insanely too long here, camps the center stage sooo well, and with the water (minus the klap traps, which are on the timer, (every 7 on the clock a klap will appear on the right side and every 5 on the left side) and can be DI'd (down and right, ALWAYS!) up to 50%) he will almost never get gimped. Save yourself some trouble and ban this stage.

• Frigate Orpheon: This should be your main CP against DK. Wall clinging on every transformation and the good chances of gimping DK with the starting formation not having a right edge to grab and when the stage flips Lucario actually has a chance to get out from under the stage if needed, DK doesn't. CP it.

• Rainbow Cruise: It's worth noting this stage just because it screws with DKs recovery a bunch but its not that great of a Lucario stage either

• Pictochat: Its also worth noting DK can pull his UP+B ledge trick on this stage as well, and just like Japes, he'll live a long time. Also d-tilt locks on a few transformations. Not ban worthy over Japes since Lucaio does pretty well here and lives pretty long, but it is a stage to keep in mind.

• Luigi's Mansion: So many gay tricks either character can pull here but DK probably has the upper hand because he'll live to 200+% so easily and his Down+B is really ******** under the bottom section near the pillars, you're trapped bouncing off the ceiling and there's not much you can do. And again the pillars on both levels of the stage extend the moves of everyone.

• Smashville: Always strike this stage first in your CPing and for starting your set.

• Final Destination: Strike this one second in starting your set but if taken here on Diddy's CP you will have more options than you would on Smashville because you can live longer with larger blast zones and the ability to wall cling.

• Battlefield: Its got plats and they help to mess up nanerz

• Yoshi's Island: This your best neutral stage because of this larger bast zones, large plat form against nanerz, and its very easy to wall cling.

• Norfair: Just bones the bananas and with so many ledges to grab you should never get gimped.

• Yoshi's Island: This is a good stage for CPing against Diddy for. With large bast zones, easy wall clinging, and a large platform that gets in the was of nanerz this is a good CP.

• Brinstar: This stage I like personally although its not the best Lucario stage its worse for Diddy it interfers with nanerz plenty.

• Smashville: It's a greatttt snakeee stage, SO STRIKE IT! SV is his best starter stage and probably his best CP. Strike it, ban it, or get *****. He just has too many tricks with mines and C4 on the moving platform, and he camps this stage so well. Also with this stage having closer blast zones than FD he'll kill you faster.

• Final Destination: It's up to you if you're more comfortable with this stage against Snake. Break out that cookie sheet and SPAM because you can out camp him with AS (that cookie sheet thing was so gay).It's good for Lucario for all the known reasons, and for some reason most Snakes don't like this stage *shrugs* so just strike BF and SV first.

• Battlefield: BF has been said to avoid by both Lucario and Snake players dor Lucario's benefit so heed these words. Everyone knows Snake's up-tilt is ******** and it easily goes through plats. Also mine traps and C4 on the two lower plats are pretty common. Strike it.

• Yoshi's Island: Play this if possible, you know the whole Yoshi's Island drill. C4 is really easy to see and it's just a good Lucario stage. Also consider this stage for a CP as well.

• Lylat Cruise: This is a really good Snake stage and a viable ban against him if you're more comfortable on Smashville then here. Traps are so easy and blend in so well with the stage.

• Halberd: This is also a good Snake stage but not worth a ban, save that for Lylat or Smashville. He can camp the moving section of the stage pretty well in the center, and once on the ship deck the up-tilts really come out with the low ceiling.

• Brinstar: F-tilt. It's ******** on this stage. This stage is another good stage for Snake and his mines and C4 are pretty hard to spot on this stage.

• Delfino: This stage is always moving, not really letting Snake set up and pitch a tent. Some of the portions can be scary against snake though with insanely close blast zones and Snakes power. But this is a mostly aerial play style of a stage which Snake doesn't like and Lucario does. Learn it and CP it.

• Frigate: This one is known as a great Lucario stage but its a good Snake stage and some even CP it. Just really depends on who knows the stage better. CP with caution.

• Jungle Japes: There are mixed feelings about this stage. You're not going to die from up-tilt or any vertical killers but Snake can camp the middle so well. Since snake relies more on over the top kills rather then horizontal kills he'll keep his f-tilt fresh if he's smart. His C4 and nades are really hard to see on this stage as well. But considering on how Lucario relies more on horizontal kill and snake on vertical kill makes this a viable CP.

• Pictochat: C4 is INVISIBLE! But its still a good Lucario stage.

• Pokemon Stadium 2:

  CaliburChamp said:

  Pokemon Stadium 2 is a good CP against Snake, the electrical field really messes with Snake the most since it pushes him off the stage and forces Snake to recover, which we all know that is Snake's weakness. The air field makes it easier to land fully charged AS, and Snake doesn't have a way to go down quick, Lucario can just extreme speed towards the ground. The ice stage and ground stage and default stage are mostly neutral to both Lucario and Snake.

  Click to expand...

• Rainbow Cruise: It's worse for Snake then it is for Lucario, but Delfino has pretty much the same theme and is better for Lucario.

• Luigi's Mansion: This stage = ********. Snake will live to 10,000%. Just don't go here. Simple enough.

• Norfair: This is another iffy stage against Snake. You may not think he has much room to run or camp but surprisingly he does, and C4 + mines are invisible. Good luck.

• Smashville: Since this stage is smaller than FD it will give you an easier time killing GW by making it harder for him to bucket brake. Not too much else special about this stage.

• Final Destination: This is a good stage as well but since it's pretty large GW can easily bucket brake and live really long.

• Battlefield: There's not really any stage you can take GW to and have much of an advantage. This stage doesn't really go either way. Just pick what you're most comfortable with.

• Yoshi's Island: Always your best neutral so play here.

• Brinstar: Most GWs don't like this stage. Their dair can get screwed up in the breakable part of the center stage and with close blast zones he can't really do much with BB.

• Frigate: GW does good here, again not really much you can do about stages against him, he's like MK. But if you know this stage better than your opponent don't hesitate to CP it.

• Jungle Japes: This is a very viable stage but be prepared to fight to the end because with BB at GWs disposal he lives sooo long. But this stage takes up-smash and a sweet spotted d-smash away from GW since they kill over the top. This will most likely prove to be your best CP.

• Rainbow Cruise: STRIKE THIS!!!! It should just be renamed GW Cruise since this is his home. Lucario is horrible and it's arguably GWs best stage. Strike it and know you made a good choice.

• Luigi's Mansion: If this stage is playable it would be a good pick. GW isn't the best on this stage and Lucario is pretty good. Lucario will live really really long and the lips on the edge CAN screw with GW. Consider it.

• Green Greens: Great stage for GW so stay away from it.

• Corneria: Pray this is banned or you're in for a rough match full of dying early due to close blast zones and low ceilings as well as full buckets from the main ship and the arwings, they'll kill you at 0%

• Smashville: This is a good starter stage since Olimar doesn't have much room to camp but sometimes the moving platform can save him if he's lost all his Pikmin coming down. It's a good stage to keep open.

• Final Destination: This is where you should make your first ban. With plenty of space to run around Olimar can very easily camp this stage. Hell, I've lived up to 223% with Olimar on FD against a Diddy. Strike this stage and you'll be good.

• Battlefield: This is a pretty good stage to leave open and not ban against Olimar, but as an Olimar player myself I like it. It just depends on the Olimar player.

  -Hilt- said:

  Oh, and I'm hearing from our stage discussion thread that our second worst stage to fight lucario on is battlefield O_o I dont have experience of fighting him here, but I would imagine the layout of the stage would be a problem, considering it's small (limiting our ability to run-the-hell-away) and the platforms make for decent setups for your aerials. I'd much rather fight lucario at FD, which I consider to be the best neutral to face him at (which means you guys should probably ban it against us :x )

  Click to expand...

• Yoshi's Island: Great Lucario stage so leave it open. In Hilt's opinion BF and Yoshi's are the best neutrals to take Olimar. I'd listen to the man. Really the only thing about the stage for Olimar is getting saved by Ronald the support ghost.

• Lylat Cruise: This is a pretty decent Olimar stage and I've seen a few Olimars CP it, watch for it but it's not ban worthy.

• Halberd: This would be a viable ban against Olimar since the second form of the stage that takes place on the main Halberd is pretty much Olimar's home. With plenty of running room he can easily camp, and with the low ceiling he'll be killing you over the top early. Keep this stage in mind when banning one against him.

• Brinstar: Really there's not much Olimar can do here. This stage really messes with his grabs and his ability to kill over the top due to the high ceiling.

• Frigate: Ahhh Lucario's home, and one of Olimar's more hated stages. Now this stage isn't impossible for Olimar, on the contrary Olimar has a few tricks up his sleeve on his stage as well. Keep in mind on Frigate, Olimar has a higher pluck rate of yellow and purple Pikmin, but with the right side not having an edge during the first formation you can see why Olimar's hate this stage.
  

  -Hilt- said:

  Frigate Orpheon is bad for him due to the right side on the first phase. However, there's several good points to the stage as well. Say you're fighting a peach, in which all of the good stage qualities for olimar come out against her. Frigate spawns an increase in purple and yellows, which are good against most characters, notably peach. Peach gets screwed by the right side, just like olimar does. In the second phase, peach's inability to gimp olimar off stage well, after knocking him off is a problem for her, as the platforms on the sides will come out to save you. Also, the dip in the second phase works great against facing her. There ARE things that olimar can take advantage on in this stage, and several characters that Frigate works well against (DK, Marth, etc)

  Click to expand...

• Jungle Japes: High ceilings really take away Olimar's up-smash, and with the water it can easily carry Olimar to his death. Think what you must about Frigate being Lucario's best stage against Olimar, but JJ's is probably better. Either way Olimar ban's Japes or bans Frigate you have to other to counter him with.

  -Hilt- said:

  Japes is a problem for several reasons. The main reasons are that the high ceiling makes killing vertically next to impossible, and the left side is extremely dangerous as getting knocked off there usually means death, as regards to the right where olimar is able to pop up on the left side after getting dragged by the current. However, I do not consider the water a legitimate reason to call japes a bad stage for oliamr, whether or not the current is going to kill you. If you fall of the stage in almost ANY stage and get edge hogged, you're going to die. Japes' left side is no different, neither is it worse. I've found myself camping the right side several, several times while my opponent's on the middle platform, and when they try to approach, I drop below it, uair through the platform and regrab the ledge without having to use tether.

  Click to expand...

• Pirate Ship: Some have said this is a bad stage for Olimar (for reasons I do not know), but I actually see this as a good Olimar stage for one reason. He doesn't get gimped. With water all around he has no way of getting gimped.

• Norfair: It's a good Olimar stage but is it ban worthy against him? That's up to you. Personally I would ban Luigi's Mansion, Halberd, and FD before I would ban Norfair, but then again a lot of Olimars like this stage.

• Luigi's Mansion: Now it has been said by Olimars that they wouldn't want to take Lucario here, but since I play Olimar as well I can tell you this is my favorite Olimar stage. Olimar's Pikmin throw goes through the pillars while Lucario's AS doesn't, Olimar can live a really long time here if he plays the stage right (so can Lucario), and Olimar can lock you for about 3 or 4 hits usually with up-smash next to the bottom pillars under the solid part of the house. Now I don't know all that Lucario can do on this stage since I never play with him here, but f-smash stays out for a day and a half on the pillars. This stage is really 50-50, but I wouldn't see many Olimars taking you here.

• Smashville: It's like a smaller FD with a moving plat. It's not bad but not the best.

• Final Destination: This should be your first the first stage you strike for obvious reasons. It's D3's home.

• Battlefield: I'd leave this stage open with Yoshi's as to where you play your starting game. With a pretty short main plat, you won't be getting CGd for maybe 2 or 3 grabs if my memory serves me right. With plats you can have a little easier time keeping D3 above you, just watch for the Utilt while standing on the plats.

• Yoshi's Island: This is probably even with BF but with the longer main platform you'll be getting CGd for longer but with the support ghost and walls to cling to you can have a better chance of getting back on stage if you make it out of reach of the stage by being WoPd by his bair.

• Halberd: Such a good D3 stage. Once the flying part if the stage finally lands on the Halberd it becomes FD with a lower ceiling. It's a very viable strike.

• Pokemon Stadium 1: This stage is meh. It has a few walls you'd want to watch out for.

• Brinstar: This wouldn't be too bad to take D3 to. he won't be CGing you, and if you like the stage like I do I'd consider it. There are still better stages to CP him to though.

• Delfino: This stage is retardedly good for D3, walls and walk offs are all he needs, and this stage has both. I would always ban this stage.

• Frigate: Not a bad choice since it's a good Lucario stage. but just keep in mind he can CG against the wall on the first transformation while the lift portion is down.

• Jungle Japes: Here is your best CP against D3. Why? Super high ceilings. Utilt, Up smash, and Dsmash won't be killing you for one long *** time. If a D3 leaves this stage un-banned don't hesitate to CP him here. Since bair and fair will be his best killing tools on this stage he won't be using them to rack up damage since he'll need them for the kill. D3's strategy on this stage will be plain and simple. Just camp the middle. Learn this stage and CP him here.

• Pictochat: After playing D3 a little I earned a new love for Pictochat. With the long stage there's plenty of room to CG and with wall transformations it's all the better. Since the ceiling is higher though it's a little harder to get the utilt kill. Still a good D3 either way. Not worth the ban, but it's good to keep in mind how this stage works and how it can help D3.

• Rainbow Cruise: I personally think this would be a stupid place to take D3, but after talking to a few friends that are smarter than I am when it comes to this stuff, they don't find it that bad. It does limit D3 to his uair and dair mostly, but still you can be infinite CGd on the boat and one other part of the stage. This stage also has a really low ceiling half way through the stage's maze. Both characters have trouble here but I personally think D3 has a good advantage on this stage.

• Norfair: You will not be getting CGd here. Just don't forget how low the ceiling is and how close the blastzone is once on top of the highest platform.

• Smashville: Good stage. Just simple ol' Smashville

• Final Destination: You're just asking to get camped here. Don't play it, there are better options. Though the higher ceiling then most starters is a plus.

• Battlefield: It's really 50-50 here. He can't laser camp as well, but the plats can help him.

• Yoshi's Island: Once again this stage is our friend. Shy guys can get in the way of lasers momentarily, and the main platform doesn't really help Falco. Pick this as your starter.

• Halberd: Low ceiling and large main stage during the second part of the stage helps Falco in camping and u-smash kills.

• Lylat: Such a great stage against Falco. The tilting of the stage can mess with his lasers, and his recovery. This would be a great CP.

• Brinstar: Brinstar is silly and it discourages Falco's camping. Weird stage, play at your own risk.

• Delfino: This stage also discourages camping to an extent and if Falco doesn't sweet spot his side-b it can be a stock as he falls through the stage.

• Frigate: Another good Lucario stage / not so good Falco stage. The right side can gimp him pretty easily. This stage just works in our favor and not so much for Falco.

• Jungle Japes: This is the stage you strike. If you don't then you better bring your camping gear because Falco is going to pitch some tents. Once you finally approach him through the insane laser spam he'll just Phantom to the other side of the stage and start all over again. This is Falco's home, not yours. Take it to Brinstar.

• Smashville: Not a bad starter since there's only 1 platform for Marth and it's continually moving. Feel it out and see.

• Final Destination: Here is your best starter against Marth, no plats and plenty of room are not Marth's thing. Learn FD against him and use it.

• Battlefield: Here's your first strike. This is Marth's home so just strike it and get it out of the way.

• Yoshi's Island: I don't know much about how Marth works here but I don't know if it's that great of a stage for him. It's great for Lucario though, unless you're Trela...

• Halberd: Low ceilings make it easy for Marth to get the utilt kill.

• Lylat: Again I don't know how Marth does here but I would venture to say it's a love hate sort of stage for him. With the plats it has sort of a BF feel for him, but on the flip side I could see him getting gimped by the stage very easily.

• Pokemon Stadium 1: Here's a good CP for Lucario. The lips mess with Marth's recovery.

• Brinstar: Now IMO I like this stage against Marth, and as a Lucario player but that's ME. I've heard a few times not to take Marth here, but you really just need to feel things out for yourself. Frigate is going to be your best choice so bank on that.

• Frigate: CP this. I'll just let Kitamerby tell you why.
  

  Kitamerby said:

  This sums up my thoughts exactly.
  
  The entire reason I never counterpick Rainbow Cruise or even Luigi's Mansion is because of the mere fact that it allows the opponent the opportunity to choose a character who will most likely be able to take better advantage of it than Lucario ever could, such as Meta Knight, Snake, Olimar, or even Marth to a degree for Luigi's Mansion, or Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, Wario, etc. for Rainbow Cruise.
  
  
  Also, for Marth, Frigate Orpheon is the best stage to take him to hands down. Nearly the entire stage works against him and for you. The first area of the stage is probably the absolute best stage in the game to use against him legally (Spear Pillar doesn't count. ;-. The trick to abusing this portion of the stage though is to really have your landing frame punishes down pat, otherwise the stage works against you instead of for you. What you want to do to Marth is to get him off the right side, which luckily is actually not that hard due to the tiny size of the stage, and then force him to recover onto either the elevator platform or the solid stage. This will put him in severe lag and vulnerability, and you need to use this time to fsmash, dsmash, ftilt, fthrow, bthrow, anything to just get him off the right side again at a low angle so he must do it all over again. I prefer Fsmash for this because it's so reliable, long-range, sends at an uncomfortable angle even with DI, and can be done out of a stutter/naritake step for even more extra range. This simple tactic will give you a huge advantage, sort of like an even easier version of when DDD is smacking you offstage with bairs, because Marth has virtually NO options other than to DI and hope for the best, especially once he loses his double jump and thus must Dolphin Slash from then on. The first area of the stage is also very kind to your camping, giving you platform cover options as well as not providing Marth very much room to do anything. Also, because of ExtremeSpeed's unique qualities, as well as the fact that Marth's moves aren't as well adapted to punishing landing lag, although in theory dtilt might work okay, Marth cannot possibly turn this strategy against you in the current metagame. Extremespeed to the wall isn't that punishable if you tech his reaction or do it while the platform is above the wall and then rising airdodge with your walljump, and your floatiness is just plain better than his, making it much easier to return to the stage from t he right side, and if you need to, you may even be able to go under the stage to the left side and sweetspot/wallcling there if you feel like it. (Yes, you can wallcling to the left side of the stage.) The only thing you really need to watch out for on this portion of the stage is juggles, because the stage is flat and Marth can easily reach you with usmashes, utilts, and uairs if you aren't careful with your landings.
  
  
  
  On the second form of the stage, while not as amazing for you as the first, is also pretty good. The slanted floors REALLY screw up his aerials, making tipper nairs, fair approaches, and a good chunk of his zoning, poking, and pressure games much less effective going both up and down. If he's under the platform, some of his aerialsIf you get under that platform yourself, you can camp him out with short hop Aura Spheres, Fsmash, Ftilt, and fair/bair outwards. He'll have some difficulty getting you out of there, but it's not THAT hard for him. If you're lucky, you'll grab him on a side platform and be able to fthrow/bthrow him for a quick doom or a suicide kill, but he can do that to you as well, and probably do it better with dthrow, so just be careful. Also, the sides of the stage can be clinged to easily, so don't forget to use them if you need to. It's probably a good idea to try to be patient on this area of the stage until the stage flips so you can continue fsmashing him off the right side again, although this area is still somewhat advantageous for you.
  
  
  In the theorycraft corner, iirc you may be able to curve your Extremespeed onto the floating platform or the main stage if you get good enough, making your return lagless, but I'm not sure if it's humanly possible. I think it is. Also, you may not know this unless you've been in the Luc boards for ages, but you can actually wall jump (not cling) between two walls under the second portion of the stage, allowing you to run the clock for a good while until your wall jumps stale to the point where you fall between the walls, although the average time you can get out of it escapes me. I think it was at least 10 seconds. The downside is that you can only reach it with ExtremeSpeed, meaning that even if you get down there, you absolutely cannot survive the return trip by yourself. I guess you can use it if you somehow got the clock down to like 10 seconds for some odd reason, and you need to run the clock. Maybe it'll count as stalling, but it might not since it doesn't last long because of wall jump degradation.

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GameyHarp said:

As a snake this is one of my favorite stages to fight lucario on.

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Trela said:

I was thinking about doing this. I just got OWNED BAH JOG <3

We shall play more Friendlies again....

Anyways, I'll try to find time and MABYE make summaries for you :D

=Trela=

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Aurasmash14 said:

What i was going to mention in good has already been said by phil though I would say the rating would be about 8/10

Also a character with a good aerial game can fight well here too. (since its mostly air and the floor.) and another to add to the good, its easy to make an F-throw kill here.

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RK Joker said:

Yeah, it's pretty good of a stage. It's probably the most balanced stage in the game. The length has been considerably increased so it doesn't favor people with long range as much anymore. It's pretty average for many matchups.

Jog, what is your problem? Name this thing something fancier! The Kirby's have "Kirby's Warp Star Adventure" our matchup thread... it's amazing. Oooh! "Where The Aura Flows ~ 01 Final Destination"! Fancy it up baby!

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RK Joker said:

Yeah, it's pretty good of a stage. It's probably the most balanced stage in the game. The length has been considerably increased so it doesn't favor people with long range as much anymore. It's pretty average for many matchups.

Jog, what is your problem? Name this thing something fancier! The Kirby's have "Kirby's Warp Star Adventure" our matchup thread... it's amazing. Oooh! "Where The Aura Flows ~ 01 Final Destination"! Fancy it up baby!

​

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RK Joker said:

Jog, what is your problem? Name this thing something fancier! The Kirby's have "Kirby's Warp Star Adventure" our matchup thread... it's amazing. Oooh! "Where The Aura Flows ~ 01 Final Destination"! Fancy it up baby!

​

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Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

Lucario can live for-freaking-ever on FD if you DI right and are careful with recovery.

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Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

Lucario can live for-freaking-ever on FD if you DI right and are careful with recovery.

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jog said:

then don't shoot it across the stage
use it closer up so its not as easily shielded/reflected.

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Timbers said:

It's true, but the mechanics change a bit as well. I find it much harder to nab kills on FD with Lucario, and managing walls becomes a more difficult task when the opponent can easily get in due to lack of plat cover or can get out of luc's range due to the length of stage.

It's a trade off, but I never really feel like FD's large blastzones to be a blessing in this sense.

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hichez50 said:

If you do that and you get reflected you cant dodge it in time.

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