Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

Xiahou Dun said:

This isn't a Matchup Thread. It's not who would win in a game between Sonic and Samus. It's a discussion on whether Sonic is an overall better character against the entire cast with more potential then Samus has.

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As you may have heard, Sonic just moved up 8 places in June. Now the only person above us on this list is Fox. Can Sonic maintain this monmentum? Or will he drop?

Now some people are thinking 'How is Sonic that good?' or 'He's not mid tier!', well, why don't you prove it? While there are some people who'll never be convinced, we'll try to discuss who's the better character here. Such as tourney results and match ups. 'Potential' should not be discussed since the tier list reflects the currect metagame.The plan is to finish up on Zelda and Bowser. Re look Sheik, Ike and Fox. Then discuss Pokemon trainer and Yoshi. In turn it'll hopefully improve some understanding of that character and clear away some miss conceptions. If you main that character and have something intellegent to say, you're welcome to join in.




Reportable/Infractions

• Don't flame each other
• Don't troll
• Don't post un helpfull one liners

Advice

• Try not to be biased, both sides keep open minds
• Try to stay on topic
• please don't make assuptions

Zelda
From post 967# to 993#
Decision: Yes

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Bowser
From post 870# to 966#
Decision: Maybe

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Fox
From post 754# to 869#
Rediscussion: 1169# and onwards
Decision: Maybe not

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:shiek: Sheik
From post 590# to 753#
Rediscussion: 1059# - 1168#
Decision: Maybe

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Ike
From post 508# to 589# (Pages 34 to 40)
Rediscussion: 996# - 1058#
Decision: Yes

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Mario
From post 305# to 507# (Pages 21 to 34)
Decision: Yes

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Lucas
From Post 289# to 304# (Pages 20 to 21)
Decision: Yes

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Ness
From Post 144# to 288# (Pages10 to 20)
Decision: Yes

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Samus
From Post 1# to 143# (Pages 1 to 10)
Decision: Yes

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Sonic
Pokémon Trainer
Yoshi

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Edit: Good stuff on the Samus discussion guys :D, next up this the under rated Ness? Is Sonic better then Ness? Discuss.
Edit2: Thanks Ness' ( >_>; ), I apologies if we came of over aggressive some how... Yeah, Lucas next. Discuss.
Edit3: Move on To Mario as no one is talking about Lucas...
Edit4: Thanks for the discussion guys, so Sonic and Ike are near even right?
Edit5: Updated to OP. Sonic is mid tier =^)
Edit6: Sigh...
Edit7: Moving on from Zelda RIP Jackson :<
Edit8: Moving on from Ike....
Edit9: Very small update, will add links and pages later...

Grab Game.
Speed.

Both have a few troubles killing. I find it easier to kill with Sonic though but that's probably just because I'm not as good with Samus. He gets owned in Range and Samus' Forward air and such make for some brilliant Damage racking. Although I feel Sonic is probably better at it overall.

My friend described to me how he was playing this matchup in a low tier tourney, and the Sonic just stood barely outside of grapple beam range, and he couldn't do anything, since Sonic can just run up and punish any projectile during the lag.

1048576 said:

My friend described to me how he was playing this matchup in a low tier tourney, and the Sonic just stood barely outside of grapple beam range, and he couldn't do anything, since Sonic can just run up and punish any projectile during the lag.

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This isn't a Matchup Thread. It's not who would win in a game between Sonic and Samus. It's a discussion on whether Sonic is an overall better character against the entire cast with more potential then Samus has.

Its gotta be the shoes

+
Stronger punishment options.
Better Throws/grab game.
Better KO options.
Better Edgeguarding.
Better recovery (though both are good, Sonic's is too varied to even be concievably punishable).
Better air and ground game.
- Samus has:-
Better zoning game (Samus has Z Air, missiles and charge shot but against a good opponent, Z Air's the only constant actual threat, missiles are too easily shielded/jabbed away etc. and charge shot...requires charging).
Better OOS option in Up B, though apart from that she's limited in shield thanks to the awful grab.

Samus is trash, Sonic is far and away a better character.

Great idea for a thread by the way.

zair is the only consistant thread, but sonic can pester from just outside zairs range, and be agressive because samus's options underpressure seem limited. sonics ground game outmanuvers the projectiles she has, and charging a shot from anydistance gives sonic the chance to control the floor. he racks up damage better, can edgegaurd better, and even if she spikes him, unless he's at killing percents already, he's not gonna get KO's by it. his recovery is too good. also, samus is actually weaker in brawl. combined that with sonic's wieght and momentum cancelling ability, even if he takes a beating he'll outlast her.

Er, Kojin

Xiahou Dun said:

This isn't a Matchup Thread. It's not who would win in a game between Sonic and Samus. It's a discussion on whether Sonic is an overall better character against the entire cast with more potential then Samus has.

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I putting this in the OP.

...
ugh.

um... I think he does... it looks like it. to me.
what does Samus do against the cast that is so much better than what sonic does?
Sonic is better at approaching most of the cast and applying pressure than she is, and i dont think zair, as good as it is, is better than sonic's pressure game.



how's that?

JayBee said:

how's that?

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Bad?

Come on Kojin you're supposed to be the best analyst on the entire Sonic boards no? The best you can come up with is "Um I think he can approach better and pressure. zair is good lol"

This is exactly the problem. You can say Sonic is too low easily. But if you can't compare him to each character above him and explain in detail why and how he is a better character then them, taking into account, matchups, movesets, attributes etc, then you're simply making baseless claims. Give it some thought or stay where you are.

awww....

lol sorry man. I'm just dead tired from finals. if you want a detailed reasoning from me, then I'll be back, but i fear it may sound like a matchup discussion. so I'll wait and see how you folks talk about it, if you mind doing it. lol im not in super thinking mode right now.


...
what? best? sonic? the? you give me too much credit.

sawnik is fast and Samus is nawt. Samus grab gamE totally sucks XD desu
Sammus projectil is gud aginst half uf the cawst LUL but on fastur charz (<3<3<3SAWNIKKU) it becums quite worthess HIA
charge shut is only gd when used frm up close cause it so easy to evad from distanse 09
her jab is wurs then sawniks <3 and has lame tilts. upclose gam sucks fur sammus
only good thing about the tamponfilled **** is her screwing atk out her sheld
her kills are ridicolos stupid, as stupd as SAWNIKS <3 takes 4eva to kill sum1
also samus is a woman

JayBee said:

lol sorry man. I'm just dead tired from finals. if you want a detailed reasoning from me, then I'll be back, but i fear it may sound like a matchup discussion. so I'll wait and see how you folks talk about it, if you mind doing it. lol im not in super thinking mode right now.

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Hehe take as long as you want and do it when you'r enot too busy but sooner or later everyone is expecting a big ol post from you in this thread on the subject and you better not let them down.

Try comparing their matchups against popular tourney characters and the tools the two have to deal with them rather then comparing what they do against each other for a start to draw it away from a matchup discussion.

JayBee said:

...
what? best? sonic? the? you give me too much credit.

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Haha you hear what you want to hear eh? I like it.

Sonic has better mindgame potential (yes, this should be quantifiable as noted by a thread somewhere...) with all his cancels and ways to recover and stuff.
Sonic has speed on the ground
Very fast on the ground leads to good at punishment
Sonic has an amazing recovery, better than just everyone except maybe 5 characters
Sonic has a good momentum canceling move.
Sonic has decent priority on tip of Fair, bair, and amazing priority on Uair
Sonic has pretty good tilts(although samus's Dtilt is good)
Sonic's tech chase game is better
Sonic's grab game is better.
Sonic has a decent gimp game.

On the other hand:
Sonic has no projectiles(meaning he basically always has to approach)
Samus has Zair
Samus has Dtilt
Samus's dair is good.
Samus has a good OoS option.
Samus's fair is good
Sonic has slow aerial acceleration, most of the time.
Sonic has a hard time killing.


Eh, more or less I suppose. =/

Match ups? Tourney results?

I think they are so close in skill level and both have room for a lot of potential to get better that a comparison like this hardly matters.... lol

If i had to give my vote though, it'd be to Sonic.

I don't see much rising for Samus in the future, but for Sonic I actually see a future, we're still all improving and none of us has reached their limit yet.

Also, Samus forum has very little matchup info, but I'm afraid 60:40/65:35 matchups for Sonics aren't as bad as it would be for Samus, since Sonic has much that isn't taken into account in the discussion, opposing to Samus who is more... Plain...

Tourney Results I won't even bring up.

Hmm.. Just wanted to chime in and let you know a lot of you are wrong about some things.. or at least, should reconsider Samus's abilities when making these comparisons.

I fail to see how Sonic can have a better gimp and edgeguard game than Samus..

Furthermore, many of you think Samus cannot fight up close.. If the Samus is in any way creative and smart, she can set up traps up close..

Also, Samus is highly mobile because of her shield dash and short initial dash animation allowing for true pivoted moves.. but wait, not many Samus mains do this, right? Instead they camp zair and missiles? Right?

Lastly... Samus's grab game alone is pretty bad, but combined with projectile traps and baiting with jabs to use her pivot grab she can land plenty of grabs successfully.. but don't think for a second that she ever really has a guaranteed, safe way to grab.. she CAN shield grab, but only under certain conditions (for example, a rising fair from mk is an instant shield grab, a marth completing his forward B on you in shield is a shield grab, etc..)

And as far as Samus having no future.. she just needs more time because there aren't many Samus mains out there innovating.. that's the problem. I think you will see she'll have a lot more traps and KO setups in the future..

Gf2tw said:

Also, Samus forum has very little matchup info[...]

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That's because the Samus board was lazy, until I became a moderator. Then things changed. Anyway, match-up info or not, we have a lot of information, actually. It's just not written out for the world to see. I don't need a guide to tell me who is better than who. I have personal experience.

And seriously, you people started off with Samus? Why not start off with Mario?

Good to see there's some input from Samus
Yea, what you say I kind of know, but not truely. Her up-close game might be decent, but there's a lot more characters where it's better.
I don't know about the true pivot thing, and I can't say I have seen it been put to use somewhere, so I'll just not comment on that :O
And on Samus future thing, that's what I was aiming at. She might have potential, but are people really getting it out, setting up new traps. It just seems somewhat slow.

Anyway, fact remains, both can't kill <_< (don't come with "oh but we can, we can D-air", cause no.)

EDIT MACHINE:

Dryn said:

And seriously, you people started off with Samus? Why not start off with Mario?

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Because Samus is the first above Sonic on the tier list...
also, matchup info in one thread is still very useful, for both other character boards as well as new players for your character. Sharing is caring :O

Can't kill meaning not killing untill 130% or so. D-air is an option, but good players don't get spiked often...
And Samus B-air is like Sonics. It can kill at high % too.

If it were me, I'd actually start off with the characters below Sonic, hahaha.

like, how are we actually better than Jigglypuff?

;p

I'll be honest, I think Jigglypuff deserves much higher. I can't think of what Sonics has a lot better than her (excluding tourney results lulz). She has decent matchup against MK, but Snake U-tilt utterly destroys Puff O_o

Dryn said:

And seriously, you people started off with Samus? Why not start off with Mario?

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Sanus is one spot above Sonic. This is a "Does Sonic deserve to move up on the tier list?" thread. Are we better then Samus? Discussion, comparison, conclusion etc. Move onto next character and so on until we hit a point where all Sonic's agree this is the limit and where Sonic belongs and the characters above him are clearly better then him.

RK Joker said:

I love Samus's B-Air. It's smexy at bringing death if you use it only for that. And never say that they "can't" kill they just have trouble with it. 'Cept for Sonic's U-Air followups. And Samus's B-Air, D-Air.

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Every character can kill. But Sonic and Samus can both admit it's harder for them then most other characters. It's something you can work around but the fact you have to work around it is a weakness. But which one has it tougher?

I don't agree on the common ideal that Sonic has a better/much better gimping/edgeguard game. Or that Samus sucks up close. I do agree that Samus' grab game isn't terrible like it's being made out to be but it is in no way as good as Sonic's.

Tenki said:

If it were me, I'd actually start off with the characters below Sonic, hahaha.

like, how are we actually better than Jigglypuff?

;p

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It would be a good idea.

Double. >.>

Teeheehee... I like where this thread is going.

How is Sonic better than Samus?

Well, tourney results currently have Sonic with 5 wins, and Samus with none. lol
Of course, that could just have to do with character popularity, but...

Both characters may have a hard time killing, but I feel that Sonic has an easier time racking up damage to get to said kill.

Sonic's recovery is better.

Actually, I think these characters are kinda even and opposite... I'm waiting to get Ness and Lucas. lol

the truth is, the Samus grab is unique in that it doesnt function as the generic grab that most of the cast share. people know this, but they still throw around that its a bad throw. in a sence, yes, you can get horribly punished on the ground if you miss a throw, that is true. but it is found out that it is better as a followup than a "startup a combo/techchase" scenario that Sonic's throws have more of.

Samus posseses a vraiety of moves that force the opponent into stun long enough to allow the grab to catch them anyways. It looks really cool when a person gets hit by, for example, a charge shot, and because of the elemental system, gets put into enough stun for the samus to reach out and grab them, then toss them away.

After watching some vids today, I love watching good samus players. it takes true skill and fast command of the controller to pull off these stunts. I think now that watched a bit on samus i can actually talk about sonic and samus without looking too much like a noob. wall o text coming up soon lol.

Gf2tw said:

<3 and has lame tilts. upclose gam sucks fur sammus

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I just find it funny how Samus' DTilt can actually KILL people.

I don't know about her grab game being sukkish, but it certainly isn't the best. You know considering how people have already mentioned Samus has traps, a tether-grab (which has it's ups and downs), and a pretty quick pummel, which as a lot of you (should) know, quickly refreshes other moves that have been decayed.

aeghrur said:

This one post about DTilt.

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See, even Aegz knows how it rolls.

Chis said:

Match ups? Tourney results?

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Well, at least we don't get ***** by D3, and there is a thread proving how Sonic does get better results than Powersuit Samus.

Althoguh to be fair for that one matchup Samus gets *****, she manhandles the Dorf, and what do we have?

a 55:45 advantage against a couple bad characters who aren't much worse than we are, while everything else is 4:6.

Jeet Kune Do said:

I think they are so close in skill level and both have room for a lot of potential to get better that a comparison like this hardly matters.... lol.

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...Actually, where I see potential in Sonic, as hard as I look around for Samus, her metagame is... I won't say dead but.... you ever see an old person on a death bed?

But again, it would be unfair to say some stuff when people can say that Sonic just has more people repping him than Samus and his metagame can evolve much faster than a lot of characters' can.

Gf2tw said:

Matchup info in one thread is still very useful, for both other character boards as well as new players for your character. Sharing is caring :O

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Well no. If you have enough experience, you shouldn't have to rely on sources to tell you stuff, although I'm pretty sure that by this point having Samus above Sonic was a miSteak, and not much can be refuted by not too many people.

Tenki said:

If it were me, I'd actually start off with the characters below Sonic, hahaha.

like, how are we actually better than Jigglypuff?

;p

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C'mon Tenki, if the false SBR put Sonic above people, then they got something right.

But that's a whole 'nother argument on it's own.

...Actually, no. Steak tier > tires.

how much damage does fair do for samus?

also, samus's jabs and tilts are all better than sonics
up tilt is strong, has a lot of hit stun (COMBOES), and hits bf platforms, and has a lot fo range adn can there fore edgeguard effectively.

f tilt is fast in starting and ending, and has great range.
d tilt is fast and kills.

i think samus is really bad because what is supposedly her best move, zair, only does 4 %, and while i realise that its supposed to be a setup, thats still really bad.
her morph bombs being on a timer only instead of a timer and a motion detection basis, makes those much much worse than they used to be.

how is samus's recovery? because of brawl physics, even though samus can still recover amazingly well, and even tho she is heavy as a mofo, it seems like samus's extended recovery is made really vulnerable, since most characters have the ablilty to go offstage to hit somebody and still comeback.

i also think the fact that samus is soooooo floaty and big is a detriment to her, because it makes her that much of an easier target.

i will say though that her dair is really great cus even if it doesnt kill you, it can easily techchase into her f smash, which can kill with the established roll DI

Samus' Jab, better than Sonic's?

Are you kidding me, how is it better?

Maybe in range... MAYBE.

But now if her jab can do more than 7% damage, I'll be pissed.

you do realise that sonic has one of the worst jabs in the game right?

One of, Im glad you said not the worst.

Now you have yet to explain how his is worse than Samus', for as bad as it is.

Xiahou Dun said:

Sanus is one spot above Sonic. This is a "Does Sonic deserve to move up on the tier list?" thread. Are we better then Samus? Discussion, comparison, conclusion etc. Move onto next character and so on until we hit a point where all Sonic's agree this is the limit and where Sonic belongs and the characters above him are clearly better then him.

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So, what you're doing is comparing apples with oranges. Nice to know.

Kinzer said:

But now if her jab can do more than 7% damage, I'll be pissed.

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Samus' jab total does 10% damage. The first hit does 3%, and the second does 7%. Not that this matters.

Dryn said:

So, what you're doing is comparing apples with oranges. Nice to know.

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So what should we be doing then? should we take the SBRB tier list approach and just say X is better than Y with no justification whatsoever?

LOL Isn't that what every board with a "where will X character be in the June 5th tierlist be?" thread is?

Why is it that sonics get better ranks in tourneys than samus? we know its not because of the massive amount of sonic players in tourneys (you'd be lucky to find one good one in most of these). Is it possible that the current mindset of the metagame, which is primarily defensive, allows sonic to florish more than some, because his style breaks away from the common mold? while the metagame screams "safe, safe, safe" is it possible that the overreliance on tilt camping and aerial/airdodge spamming allowed for sonic's metagame to adjust the quickest amung his low tier bretheren? Because let's face it, even if no one paid attention to sonic's game in particular, if he played like the majority of the cast, who possesed strong aerial walls and camping tools, the community, who are used to this style, would be able to counter it quicker IMO, because its easy to recognize, since, they most likely do it themselves. Sonic can't do that, so he doesn't play like that at all, and I feel that this is the thing that bothers people without sonic specific experience the most.

Samus's game of attrition is solid, but it is a familiar style of play that has become IMO the "theme playstyle" of Brawl. Toon Link's style is similar to Samus, but obviously he's better at it, and wins more. I'm just saying that samus's game, though good, is too easily thwarted by the experience of the community as a whole, who play better characters that do the same thing. Sonic, on the other hand is an anomoly. despite his bad jabs, and decent priority at best, his still agressive stlye of play, and quickly transitioning mindgames is the type that only a very small portion of the cast can replicate, and without extensive knowledge of the matchup, few people can consistanly recognize on the spot. That is why most matchups against the likes of metaknight can be debated at times to nearly even. its because Sonic's game doesn't take advantage of the opposing characters attributes as much as it does the mental processes of the player weilding the character, as well as the games defensive limitations and does it almost to an extreme. Because of this, the metagame of sonic is almost entirely dependant on the player's potential and not the addition of new techinques. This may be a reason why some threads feel "dead" after a certain length of time, but the sonic boards by comparison are not.

I'm not to concerend about the head to head matchup because they are very much polar opposites in style, but the goal is the same, to control the spaceing while limiting your opponents options to only ones you can predict and counter the easiset. while sonic is close up and is riskier more often, Samus is safer. However, Sonic's erratic nature gives him the edge over samus in tournaments because the player may not be able to counter as much regarless of his characer choice, while Samus style is well grounded on the ability to use zair and other projectiles. I also feel that it is more difficult to consistantly emply this strategy while moving around, while sonic needs not to manage multiple projectiles and can start his offense well from one grab. Also, I feel that in a metawhere everyone works hard to minimize landing lag sonic does a better job of making them feel truly safe than Samus can with her options.

So, In short, I feel that Sonic should be better than Samus on the tier list not because he is a much more dominating character than samus, but that his game, requires less management and is a much less predictable form of offense than Samus'.

No love for PT?

lol, this thread us much better than those genric June tier list thread.

I need to be more creative <_<.

Well...

PT is lower on the tier list than Sonic. Though I do agree that he should be higher, I cannot say exactly where, but seeing as how he is not above Sonic.... only yet and maybe, it really is not a concern.

But now the discussion is why Powersuit Samus above Sonic was a huge mistake.

I wonder who it is next, if it isn't the person two spots above Sonic, and wather or not that one character does deserve to be above Sonic.

TBH, I think we're kinda rounding up Samus. Samus has some decent abilities, but still Sonic are bettur :O
Her aerials are near lagless and hard to punish, but her smashes and D-tilt (kill moves) are easily punishable.