Lucario vs. Snake (6) EXPORT

Timbers · Mar 24, 2009

SNAKE

Matchup:

40:60

General info:

Red Ryu said:
Snake can be really ********.

Grenade cooking, mines, long ranging tilts, he's a camp fest. Grenades aren't that bad unless he cooks them, if he cooks, just shield if he doesn't go ahead and grab the grenade and throw it back at him. Also, Aura sphere>Mines.

Snake dashing may be a good surprise, however; it has no priority, he can be knocked out of it easy. If you didn't beat it, it's probably because you were hit by the dash attack.

Melomaniacal said:
Snake is ridiculous. His tilts are absolutely stupid. Everything about him is absolutely stupid. He has incredible range on nearly all of his attacks, his tilts are stronger and more ranged than many smashes, and he doesn't die too easily. Honestly, I hate Snake. A lot.

Popertop said:
At high percents: IMPORTANT. Snake has advantage at high percents. Why? he can out camp you, and has safe(er) killing options. He can chuck grenades and there's not much you can do about it.

What to avoid:

Sigrid Fiinikkusu said:
Snaaaaake... *Shudder*

This match can be pretty even for Lucario or you can get slaughtered. From my experience, you don't want to attack a grounded Snake with aerials. His u-tilt has more range than it should and his f-tilt outranges ours. However you don't just want to try and projectile spam him, you have to have a balance of approaching and retreating if you want to win. The only time you want to even think about using aerials is when the snake is in the air or above, otherwise forget it.

You can use BAS to try and get some damage in, but a good snake will just shield it most of the time. Also you'd be better of avoiding Snakes nades rather then throwing them back at him unless he just immediately throws it without waiting. This is a tough match for Lucario that can easily go either way. The only thing we have on snake is that we have a better roll , aerials. Fsmash is too slow to use against Snake most of the time unless he's recovering. It's better to use Lucarios Ftilt and even dtilt if you can.

Melomaniacal said:
Be ready for the uptilt when you start getting into killing percentages, and DI accordingly. I wouldn't even bother approaching on the ground because of his broken ftilt/jab. Some Snakes like doing their little dthrow/tech chase chaingrab, and if they're inexperienced against Lucario, they won't know that Lucario rolls too far. I've only encountered this once or twice, but it's good to know. If he dthrows you, roll away. Should have plenty of time to retaliate.

His grenade game is stupid. Keep an eye out for grenade cooking, and always watch where he throws them (this goes for all his explosives).

Samuelson said:
This matchup looks a lot worse on paper but it's still pretty bad imo. He can out camp you when Lucario is at lower percents and when Lucario is at higher percents it's still hard to camp a good Snake. Approaching is tough in this matchup since he has Utilt, Jab, Ftilt and Grab that can be used pretty well OoS. His Nades are also kind of a ***** to deal with. Don't get predictable with your rolls and NEVER roll towards him. Snake can and will punish your rolls, he can even punish retreating rolls with your dash attack. Snakes complain about how they can't really tech chase us with their Dthrow since we roll so far, that is a plus for us. Snake's Dthrow still does 12% and he can still hit us with a Ftilt or Dash Attack if we get predictable.

How to win:

Popertop said:
OFF STAGE:

Allright, this is where you need to have Snake be most of the time ifyou want to win (**** HIM).
(Off stage, or in the air above you are both pretty good position for you, especially bad for Snake)

If snake is off the stage, you have a couple tools at your disposal to gimp/ make him take lots more damage.
It is important to read the Snake and predict what he will do, most times you can get a kill off this.

Red Ryu said:
Aerials on a grounded Snake are pointless, he'll shield and punish. If you get him in the air, go nuts, you can juggle him a bit in the air with your superior aerials. Your also going to have an advantage gimping him. Aura sphere will knock him out cyper, so will bair and dair when your at a higher percentage.
Lucario can wreck Snake in the air and off stage, but be mindful not to use an aerial on a grounded Snake unless your confident in a hit. He has better camp options, but you still have some range on him with some attacks and your own projectile to fight back with.

Samuelson said:
I think the best way to deal with Snake is to keep him in the air as much as possible. I find that Uthrow is very good in this matchup. Lots of Snakes have learned how to pivot their nades in the air so they can avoid being juggled...just something to watch out for. I think the best way to win is to stay mid range and go for Dash Grabs a lot, space with Fsmash and use AS wisely. It sucks shooting a fully charged AS and having a nade blow up in your face. I find that Jab, Utilt, Uair and Bair are also very good in this matchup. When Snake is going for his Cypher i find it best to Bair or Aura Sphere him...

Popertop said:
Pressure is really important for not letting him set up and camp you. Once he has everything going it's a lot harder to get him uprooted, so it's very important to keep him busy avoiding you and not setting up shop.

Helpful tips:

Melomaniacal said:
Because he's so heavy, a lot of stuff can be followed up pretty well, assuming he doesn't pull a grenade on you. Uthrow at low percentages can lead to an immediate utilt, or many other mixups, really.

manhunter098 said:
On the matter of Snakes d-throw, it is advised to mix up your response, because if they predict your roll away a Snake can always punish it with a dash attack. Dont go behind him though, because its a slower roll and he can nail you with a f-tilt.

Stages:

Samuelson said:
I like taking Snakes to Japes, FD or Yoshi's. I tend to strike BF for the neutrals and I always ban Lylat.

Melomaniacal said:
As for stages... I would avoid Lylat, but that's more of a personal thing. I can't see where the hell his C4 is on that **** stage. I like Frigate a lot for it, I've gotten many, many opportunities for cypher gimps there. Avoid Battlefield at all costs. Probably his best stage.

Ken Neth said:
[Avoid Brinstar] A really really good snake stage is brinstar. He has so many tricks he can do there. I've never lost to anyone here besides this one MK, and it's normally at least a 2 stock. Some advantages he has here are 1) all three platforms are set up to a perfect height for his nair, and they're small enough that the first hits will often knock a shielded opponent off and they get hit by the last hit. 2) lava helps snakes avoid gimps and also sets up easy aerials. 3) the pillars keep his grenades on stage, no matter how you throw them 4) the uneven ground allows grenades to be thrown at all kinds of crazy angles 5) the things that can be broken create little ledges that you can't roll past, so a snake dthrow is almost impossible to escape here until the things grow back and you can roll away. These little ledges also stop your snake dash from moving forward and are great for mindgames. 6) The slanted ground allows him to slide when you autocancel an aerial, so you can do things like ff a nair which pops them onto the platform (last hit doesn't hit) into a sliding uptilt. Too broken. 9) Dark stage makes explosives really hard to see.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

XavantTheEnigma · Mar 24, 2009

CLEAN AND ORGANIZED... i LOVE IT

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 24, 2009

The only thing I disagree with is the ratio.

I don't think Snake has an advantage on Lucario in the 60:40 range.

Timbers · Mar 24, 2009

I just took the majority :\

There was I think 2 people that said 50:50, 1 that said 45:55, and the rest said 40:60.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 24, 2009

Timbers said:
I just took the majority :\

There was I think 2 people that said 50:50, 1 that said 45:55, and the rest said 40:60.

Fair enough.

I'll stick to my thought on the ratio, 50:50, but other than that the export cover the match-up nicely.

Gea · Mar 24, 2009

One thing I disagree with. Snake's dthrow. If you know he's good at techchasing (let's face it, some snakes are going to get you again) just go for the slow get up/get up attack/edge and just take the tilt damage instead of repeatedly getting regrabbed. Use your best judgement.

Just something to chew on.

Also don't worry about the ratio. Who cares? The most important aspect of these topics are to find good strats and answers to the characters. Sometimes "easy" matchups (to everyone else) will give you problems and other times a "hard" matchup will seem easier to you.

Though if you want an honest opinion I think Snake has definite advantage overall due to the ability to outcamp you, outlive you, and control the stage better. At least you have a great smash to kill him with and some stuff other characters don't. Just don't take this as me saying Snake ***** Lucario. Just that he does have some sort of advantage, even if it is small.

Also I guess I disagree about taking snake to Japes. He can CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMP the middle so well its not even funny. Mansion *can* be good believe it or not. If the Snake doesn't know Japes it is good. If the snake doesn't move at all and fails at aerial play, Rainbow Cruise, even if extremespeed sucks. Him in the air = **** time.

Timbers · Mar 25, 2009

I don't have frame data or anything, but it's pretty easy to escape the dthrow chase against Snake, save for mortarslide, which is a lot weaker than taking a ftilt to the face. If you're dthrown and don't have room to roll away though, stalling and just standing up are usually the best ways of escaping it. I just dislike getup attack a lot. Free utilt on you if shielded.

Gea · Mar 25, 2009

Timbers said:
I don't have frame data or anything, but it's pretty easy to escape the dthrow chase against Snake, save for mortarslide, which is a lot weaker than taking a ftilt to the face. If you're dthrown and don't have room to roll away though, stalling and just standing up are usually the best ways of escaping it. I just dislike getup attack a lot. Free utilt on you if shielded.

Ah, right, Lucario's roll is longer. I'm thinking in general against Snake. Disregard. Or rather, take the advice if you play, say, Diddy.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 26, 2009

Gea said:
One thing I disagree with. Snake's dthrow. If you know he's good at techchasing (let's face it, some snakes are going to get you again) just go for the slow get up/get up attack/edge and just take the tilt damage instead of repeatedly getting regrabbed. Use your best judgement.

Just something to chew on.

Also don't worry about the ratio. Who cares? The most important aspect of these topics are to find good strats and answers to the characters. Sometimes "easy" matchups (to everyone else) will give you problems and other times a "hard" matchup will seem easier to you.

Though if you want an honest opinion I think Snake has definite advantage overall due to the ability to outcamp you, outlive you, and control the stage better. At least you have a great smash to kill him with and some stuff other characters don't. Just don't take this as me saying Snake ***** Lucario. Just that he does have some sort of advantage, even if it is small.

Also I guess I disagree about taking snake to Japes. He can CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMP the middle so well its not even funny. Mansion *can* be good believe it or not. If the Snake doesn't know Japes it is good. If the snake doesn't move at all and fails at aerial play, Rainbow Cruise, even if extremespeed sucks. Him in the air = **** time.

Alright, I'll ignore the numbers and just read the match-up.

I guess I just don't do bad against Snakes or something and get ***** by G&W's.

Ambient_Horizon · Mar 29, 2009

Snakes say that this is a 50-50 matchup. My personally seeing as how I'm a Snake main use Lucario as a secondary I would say the match is at worst 45-55 for Lucario. Its a very even matchup.

RT · Mar 29, 2009

The matchup is NOT even, unless the Snake is terrible. Snake can outcamp Lucario, outspam him, and pretty much outplay Lucario. Snake can easily kill Lucario at low 100s%...far before Lucario can take advantage of his Aura. Snake's ftilt and utilt eat through everything...even fsmash. Snake's aerials are all stupidly good, and he has a few options of limiting Lucario's recovery options.

40:60 is right. 45:55 at the most.

G-Beast · Mar 29, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
Snake can easily kill Lucario at low 100s%...far before Lucario can take advantage of his Aura.

No, you dont need to be at mid-high 100s to be able to take advantage of his aura

Snake's ftilt and utilt eat through everything...even fsmash. Snake's aerials are all stupidly good, and he has a few options of limiting Lucario's recovery options.

they do NOT beat out out fsmash... Lucario's aura has weird properties were it dosent clank or get beaten out by anything unless it touches the body portion of the htibox. and if teh snake utilts early we can use this weird priority to our advantage and dair his sorry hide

just stating some facts....

hichez50 · Mar 29, 2009

The thing about snake is that he simply out ranges and out priotizes lucario. And does it in a stealthier way. Thats what lucario is suppose to have as an advantage and snake still it away.

Snake eats pokemon!!!

RT · Mar 29, 2009

G-Beast said:
just stating some facts....

I meant high percentages to take FULL advantage of Aura. As in killing power and racking up damage. You get to a high percent, but the Snake kills you before you have chance to do any significant damage, guess what? Now you are at low percent again, can't kill Snake, and Snake can go to town until you either deal an insane amount of damage or take a lot of damage to get Aura so you can kill Snake.

Guess what...if you miss with a fsmash tip or the Snake spot dodges it, the Snake can immediately utilt you. I never said his moves CLANK with fsmash, but they can outrange it slightly. Also, ftilt beats out a majority of Lucario's ground moves because if comes out fast and has a ton of priority. Considering that almost every single one of Snake's moves could be considered a kill move, except Cypher and some of his throws, you can see the problem here.

Anyways, matchup discussion is over. Point is, matchup is not even.

G-Beast · Mar 30, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
I meant high percentages to take FULL advantage of Aura. As in killing power and racking up damage. You get to a high percent, but the Snake kills you before you have chance to do any significant damage, guess what? Now you are at low percent again, can't kill Snake, and Snake can go to town until you either deal an insane amount of damage or take a lot of damage to get Aura so you can kill Snake.

Guess what...if you miss with a fsmash tip or the Snake spot dodges it, the Snake can immediately utilt you. I never said his moves CLANK with fsmash, but they can outrange it slightly. Also, ftilt beats out a majority of Lucario's ground moves because if comes out fast and has a ton of priority. Considering that almost every single one of Snake's moves could be considered a kill move, except Cypher and some of his throws, you can see the problem here.

Anyways, matchup discussion is over. Point is, matchup is not even.

1) racking up damage is for low %s, killing power gets really noticeable around 90-100%

2) no he can't, he utilt dosent have THAT much range..

3) even if his ftilt does outrange our fsmash, theres absolutely no reason why a snake would be ftilting from such a far range away because our fsmash would still connect first in that case.

i know that this matchup discussion is more or less over, but we don't need false ideas being considered

RT · Mar 30, 2009

G-Beast said:
2) no he can't, he utilt dosent have THAT much range..

Yeah, it kind of does have that kind of range. If a tipped fsmash misses, the Snake CAN utilt you. Lucario leans forward during the animation, and a Snake can nick you with the utilt. Because of this one lesson, I've learned his range. <_<

Check out 1:11.

I'm only posting truths from my experiences. But we can all agree matchup is not even, so that's the end of this.

Timbers · Mar 30, 2009

G-Beast said:
2) no he can't, he utilt dosent have THAT much range..

3) even if his ftilt does outrange our fsmash, theres absolutely no reason why a snake would be ftilting from such a far range away because our fsmash would still connect first in that case.

i know that this matchup discussion is more or less over, but we don't need false ideas being considered

It's not so much utilt's range, it's that Luc's hurtbox extends when he fsmashes. At tipper range, he can powershield to utilt your extended hurtbox (however at this time you usually have a huge amount of time to DI the inevitable utilt, and live till an easy 115-120% from a fresh utilt) or he can spotdodge to utilt (which is less likely. The lingering hitbox staying active against spotdodging makes it very frame specific to be able to do anything to a spotdodged fsmash. From when Luc's lingering hitbox dies until he can move again, there's like 13 frames of lag. Spotdodge vulnerability is 5 frames of afterlag, and at tipper range the best Snake can do is execute a 6 frame or whatever move. So yeah, that's like 2 frames of breathing room right thurr.)

absolutely no reason? What's wrong with Snake having proper spacing? For the record, only the second ftilt will outspace, but that's not so much a concern as it is that his first ftilt is like 7x faster than our fsmash and harbors nearly as much range as fsmash.

Rockettrainer said:
Yeah, it kind of does have that kind of range. If a tipped fsmash misses, the Snake CAN utilt you. Lucario leans forward during the animation, and a Snake can nick you with the utilt. Because of this one lesson, I've learned his range. <_<

Check out 1:11.

I'm only posting truths from my experiences. But we can all agree matchup is not even, so that's the end of this.

hurdurr

G-Beast · Mar 30, 2009

okay that snake was sliding towards you as he spotdodged, and he too close to be at tipper range...

phi1ny3 · Mar 30, 2009

Just as a general rule, when I lose out on a match big time, I take some time to look up the guide and play as the character for awhile to get a feel for timing, especially on the moves I lose to. It's been very helpful, and if you are flexible enough to broaden your character scope I totally recommend it. It's made me see snake utilt before it happens whether by situation I would use it in or by physical frames.
Also, not to sound ego, but I don't see too many quotes of some other people who have good stuff (like some of mine). I don't know if it's for the sake of space, but I felt others have addressed unique issues that although sometimes seem trivial, they really do become helpful for newer people.

phi1ny3 · May 11, 2009

Sorry to bump this, but I've been delving into the matchup a bit, and after scrutinous analysis, I've come to a conclusion that the matchup can be 55:45.
Yes, ftilt is gay.
Yes, he's got those nades and boxing you in.
But I have reason to believe that the reason we've been going at it in 60:40 is because we think "o noes, my effinawesomepants (from Steel2nd) fsmash/AS are not usable!). However, we've got some rediculous advantages that I think snakes agree are not fun to play against, and whoever is saying ftilt kills in here is not thinking straight (good DI + this is used to utmost staling = no kill), it's really about playing smart.
I've changed my opinion to 55:45 disadvantage bordering even (mainly depending on stage, but most of the time it isn't even), I've seen a lot of good lucarios get around snake's pluses and definitely make it a good fight.
He's got things of ridiculous proportions, but we've got some decent answers to him.

Timbers · May 11, 2009

phil you really need to play a snake that doesnt mind nade camping you for 8 minutes.

very hard to do anything to him. not because of the nades but because you are forced to approach here, and Snake walls you very well. Nade pulls get him out of your somewhat slow pressure game as well.

Death isn't even an issue. I live against Snake until 150-160% on average, just the ftilt walls you incredibly well and its very hard to do anything to Snake's shield when he's dropping nades the entire match, and foregoing the aerial approach for a grab with Luc's pisspoor grabrange (especially in contrast to Snake) is difficult to manage.

phi1ny3 · May 11, 2009

But it isn't like MK, where you pray they don't know the matchup. Lots of things snake has, even with the nasty job of approaching, lucario has some good things, and with how I've seen lucario do consistantly well in EC and other tourneys. Either snakes at the higher level of play aren't playing right, or lucario has better chances of fighting than we though, and it's also better than D3/MK (and marth for that matter).

Timbers · May 11, 2009

I'd rather play against MK or DDD than Snake, lol.

G-Beast · May 11, 2009

i don't mind playing against snake either, i find him easier then MK, Marth, and DDD

phi1ny3 · May 11, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-_9NS96MNc
This is Ally. Ally is godly snake, beat m2k recently @ APEX, iirc.
needless to say, he's the epitome of snake, grenades and all.
I was going to use Azen, who I think deals better vs. snake, but I couldn't find any good ones that were new or had a more grenade happy snake (Chillin is all about up close, not always the best example mind you).
Lee was next best.
As you can see from the video, sure he had the rush of adrenaline from the 'nades, and yes, it's really hard, but when you apply the pressure to snake, especially with AS just a little out of ftilt range and fair, bair, and grab, you can see that this was a match that certainly had Lee doing rather well, the first match he lost, but then again, I felt he made some mistakes I disagree with (I love Lee's lucario, don't get me wrong, but I just feel he can't put as much pressure as I think lucario is capable of). However, he did well both games, and when you think about it, regardless of nades, our air game and up close game is only a matter of learning to deal with ftilt, jab (1st hit to buffer occasionally), grenades, and grab, something I think many lucarios are unused to. I think if the lucario plays consistently with snakes (like Azen does with Chillin), I think lucario can really turn it into a fair fight. That's why I consider it the amount it is.

G-Beast · May 12, 2009

phil, i think this is why the snake boards see this matchup as even. i agree with you 100%

D Who? · Jun 4, 2010

Snake has a definite advantage over Lucario. I find that the best way to get around his tilts are mind games with his own grenades followed up by the forced snake shld to fp. You, at low percents with snake can be forced to around 48 percent and around mid 30's start dropping nades. If that happens let go and buffer dthrow to shld and both nades will punish snake allowing for you to punish his air game. I play alot of smakes and I have earned the nickname by most at 'Snake Eater' but in the the brackets with snakes that just outhandle my lucario, I'm forced to pick the everlasting homo MK. *****, I know.

D Who? · Jun 4, 2010

Also, Rainbow C can be a good pick for Snake. I would pick JJ and avoid lylat, period. Smashville I feel goes 50-50 with snake. He has the playform as an advantage, as do good Lucario players. Use the platform to help with the air game. You can also plank AS and then when he starts to camp ftilt or utild ff and es to other ledge. If he is jonesin for the u or ftilt, Carefully plank Double Team. It's a risk, I know, But if you do it properly it will pay off.

By the way, Does anyone think that Lucario is the navi of SSBB? lol

Steam · Jun 4, 2010

if snake doesnt ban Japes vs. Luc he's a ******

phi1ny3 · Jun 4, 2010

so ooooooold.

We even have a redone updated export.
and this isn't even linked to the MU thread.
how do these things even get necro'd lol?

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