The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

Ishiey · Oct 17, 2009

I think it's about even, although I've never had top Mario experience.

First off, dthrow. Wolf has frame disadvantage anyways, until you change from the sliding animation to the tumbling animation. Idk how fast the cape comes out, but either cape or shield if you're worried he's going to fsmash or something after a dthrow, and then punish. If you shield, be cautious because some Wolves might dash up to you and regrab, or be sexy and try to run past > pivot grab. Teching leaves some characters at a frame advantage, some at a frame disadvantage, I'm not sure where Mario lies though.

So, gimping. Mario has a cape. Wolf barely has any control over his aerial movement after his recovery. Basically, **** us. Fireballs are annoying if Wolf is forced to recover low (shouldn't be happening often with good DI), and since our recovery is linear it makes for an easy cape if you can force us into a bad spot. Scarring (where Wolf ledgedrops and sideBs onto the stage) can also be caped, and... that really sucks. So if they're trying to use that against you, cape it. FLUDD too, gimps are what Mario is good at, take advantage of it.

On the other end of the spectrum, Wolf can shine gimp Mario quite effectively, although it is a bit tougher than some other shine gimps. As far as I know, Mario can't punish a well-spaced SHFF bair, so that might be an issue. You can combo Wolf quite well at low %s but remember that he has shine to break out of some strings. If you know where there might be gaps in your attacks and anticipate a shine, shield and punish the lag. All of our main aerials go through your fireballs iirc, not sure if that's uncommon but it's something to keep in mind, Wolf can bair through all your fireballs with ease.

So before I stop making sense, I'll conclude with about an even matchup. I've never lost to a Mario before, but as I said I've never played a top one. You should emphasize gimping and low % combos to make this matchup as close to even as possible, if you can't take advantage of either of those you're in some trouble.

And lol, I'm slow. Gindler ninja'd me with most of the stuff I said except in less words. Whatever

A2ZOMG · Oct 17, 2009

IMO, this matchup is even, slightly leaning more in Wolf's favor on FD and Smashville, a bit more in Mario's favor on various counterpick stages.

Mario has the tools to gimp Wolf HARD. Cape, N-air, and FLUDD when used intelligently all SCREW Wolf's recovery. N-air hits him horizontally out of SideB, his Up-B can be Caped or FLUDDed on reaction. U-tilt juggle on Wolf works til like 40% or something (make sure to start it at like 7% though first, because he can block the first U-tilt if you do it too early).

When it comes to KOs, Wolf can have the advantage mainly with fresh D-smash, which is really good. If you can avoid getting hit by that however, then he'll have a lot more trouble killing you early. You can kill him with Up-smash at like 130ish percent, although ideally, you should be focusing more on killing him via gimps.

Advantage swings a bit depending on stage, anything that pressures recovery gives Wolf more trouble. Odd terrain helps Mario get more advantages in autocanceling certain aerials and camping from new angles. On flat stages with fewer obstructions, Wolf has more of an advantage due to his blaster and horizontal mobility.

tl;dr Wolf can zone and kill a bit better, but Mario can keep up easily with devastating juggles and gimps.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Oct 17, 2009

I dunno this matchup and gets on my nerves! Wolf ***** Mario in ground game and Mario ***** Wolf in aerial game. Wolf will do gud in flat stages like Final Destination and Smashville. On platform stages, I think the match-up is even and on flat stages, I think the match-up is slightly is in Wolf's favor.

BoTastic! · Oct 17, 2009

This is Even. No more, no less. Someone get Kain in here. He knows.

hippiedude92 · Oct 17, 2009

I could have swore last time we did this discussion it was like 6/4 Wolf or l might be drunk or something lol..

usually i just treat wolfs bair like marth's fair and just powershield it and rapeee inside from there. (even tho this is just experience not theory) Wolf's dsmash is really dumb.

TheCubeStud · Oct 17, 2009

I'm actually a Wolf main, and use Mario as my Wolf CP as opposed to mirroring. And I love me some mirror matches too. I don't know how I would call the match-up percentage wise, mainly because I disagree with how it's used overall on this site (seriously, just look at a table of match-ups, and apparently we have the most balanced game in history).

The Nutz of Norcal Deez · Oct 17, 2009

i'd say 55-45 Wolf 50-50 arguably if Mario plays well. ChoiceBrawler is a good wolf and has bent me over numerous times in matches. the cape & fludd help the gimp game. choose LC if possible, ban SV as FD his recovery is hindered by the sides of FD, and BF you can Uair juggle him on the platforms.

Wolf has similar ground game as MK so you gotta keep your distance and punish his lag from his F-Smash, as that is his spacer. D-smash is as fast as MK, so just shield grab that when possible.

hard to give input on some of these matchups >.<

Inferno3044 · Oct 17, 2009

I remember playing a Wolf on wifi. I mainly lost because I didn't know anything about Wolf and got ***** first stock (actually happened to me against a C. Falcon but I won that one). He space very well to screw Mario up actually similar to Marth like Hippie said (I believe Wolf's bair has as much range, if not more than Marth's fair) The difference is that Wolf can be juggled much easier due to his weight and he can be gimped much easier. That what evens the match.

@Norcal: Wolf's ground game is not like MK's. You do have to keep your distance, but it isn't anything like MK.

JUDGE · Oct 18, 2009

i think A2 summarized it pretty well
i think it's 55/45 wolf
we can juggle and gimp him very hard but the problem is we have to get inside his range, or better getting inside his bair and lazors
however even if the momentum is on our side,wolf can shine and turn the momentum

A2ZOMG · Oct 18, 2009

Wolf only clearly wins on Smashville and FD afaik.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Oct 18, 2009

Judge, I agree, I see no 50/50. It's just his range and ground game that beat our range and ground game. 55/45 Wolf. If it's 50/50, this is still one of my worst match-ups when I'm Mario and I need more practice to focus on his range and shield grab.

JUDGE · Oct 18, 2009

hihi^^ thx lil g

Inferno we need more statements from wolf mains
can you invite some people?

Inferno3044 · Oct 18, 2009

i did. i dont know why they aren't coming.

MidnightAsaph · Oct 18, 2009

Discussing MUs against characters that have poor rep is difficult, especially when BOTH characters are poorly represented. I've played one Mario, and he's not that good. He's slowly getting much better, but I'm not even at the top of my metagame.

I'll play Boss's Mario next time I see him, and maybe I can get an answer. But unfortunately, everything I say is theorycraft.

60:40-55:54 for Wolf. You guys can gimp us badly, but a good Wolf knows this and will do what it takes to get away. We both have reflectors and we both have projectiles.

I'd say Wolf has a superior recovering game in both distance and options.

Does Mario have a problem killing? Wolf doesn't, he has solid options. I'd like to know if this is an advantage.

Wolf's reflector is better? He can keep it open.

His blaster has more range and priority, as well as two hits that hit for a total of ten.

That's all I got, I don't know much, unfortunately. Sorry. Maybe one of the other Wolf mains has a good bit of Mario experience.

A2ZOMG · Oct 18, 2009

Mario's recovery by far is better than Wolf's. He's floatier, so he gets to stall more in the air, and his edge game is also better, and his recovery moves have less telegraphed startup.

Mario doesn't have trouble killing once you're in Up-smash KO range, considering how stupidly easy it is for Mario to land Up-smash, and even though his F-smash can be hard to land, its range and KO power are not to be underestimated.

Mario's Cape is different from Wolf's reflector in that it gives him more aerial mobility, giving him more mixups.

Wolf only clearly wins on FD and SV where flat predictable terrain doesn't obstruct his relatively straightforward zoning. Mario as far as I'm concerned has more pressure and camping options opened on stages that have platforms or other forms of elevated terrain.

Inferno3044 · Oct 18, 2009

Asaph said:
Discussing MUs against characters that have poor rep is difficult, especially when BOTH characters are poorly represented. I've played one Mario, and he's not that good. He's slowly getting much better, but I'm not even at the top of my metagame.

I'll play Boss's Mario next time I see him, and maybe I can get an answer. But unfortunately, everything I say is theorycraft.

60:40-55:54 for Wolf. You guys can gimp us badly, but a good Wolf knows this and will do what it takes to get away. We both have reflectors and we both have projectiles.

I'd say Wolf has a superior recovering game in both distance and options.

Does Mario have a problem killing? Wolf doesn't, he has solid options. I'd like to know if this is an advantage.

Wolf's reflector is better? He can keep it open.

His blaster has more range and priority, as well as two hits that hit for a total of ten.

That's all I got, I don't know much, unfortunately. Sorry. Maybe one of the other Wolf mains has a good bit of Mario experience.

Yeah. It does suck that both Mario and Wolf have little rep even though they don't have much of a problem on most of the cast. We both have some bad MUs (which unfortunately many people use like MK and D3) but against most of the cast, we don't do that badly against.

I don't think its 60:40 Wolf. 60:40 means the one with the disadvantage really has to work to win. Mario doesn't have to do that in order to beat Wolf. As stated above, I played a Wolf on wifi and I only lost due to lack of MU experience. Once I figured him out, it wasn't hard at all and I almost won.

Wolf and Mario's recoveries are completely different. Wolf can get on from a farther distance, but with Mario's edgeguarding it won't be easy for him to get back on. On the other hand, Mario's recovery has invincibility frames meaning we can stop an attempt of you doing something to stop us from getting back on stage.

Mario doesn't have trouble killing, but he doesn't have that much kill power. You guys can survive for a bit, but its not like it will be hard for us.

Mario's cape isn't just a reflector. It has many purposes like stalling, edgeguarding, and gimping.

What you are saying from about the blaster is true except I don't think it has much more range than fireballs. Wolf's can't be used as versatile as fireballs. We have many options we can do with fireballs and use them to help us. That's why fireballs are a good projectile.

hippiedude92 · Oct 18, 2009

l still could have swore all of us back then said it was 6/4 Wolf, what changed in the matchup? lol.

Uffe · Oct 18, 2009

I think it's 55:45, Wolf. He's pretty difficult. You can Cape his Blaster, but don't think that's always going to work. And his Blaster does go quite far. It can reach almost the other end of Luigi's Mansion when inside, so that's saying something. He's got range and he knows how to space like a *****.

I fight Wolf on a daily basis offline and he still gives me trouble. His f-smash is predictable, but it hits a lot. His back air is surprisingly good, too. I think his neutral air can knock you into the air. That might be his forward air, they look similar.

_Kain_ · Oct 18, 2009

Id say its 50-50 or 55-45 Wolf its a match up where the better player with more knowledge should win

In terms of range Wolf's bair and fair beat most of Mario's options. His blaster is greater than Mario's fireballs but its not as versatile cause of the lag after so Mario wins in the projectile department cause of the setups. Wolf has a great punisher in Fsmash and can kill pretty fast with dsmash

Now Mario can juggle the hell out of Wolf in to many setups as ive seen fighting Bo X7. Utilt can juggle to about 20-30% til u can shine out, dthrow into some things, and in the air he can use uair to setup into some juggling. Also his fireballs too. He also has the gimping adv with the cape and fludd. People could argue if u DI right u dont gotta deal with that but thats based on the player so yeah Mario has the adv gimping wise

Overall its a player matchup better player wins. My kind of fight lol

:mad: · Oct 18, 2009

_Kain_ said:
Id say its 50-50 or 55-45 Wolf its a match up where the better player with more knowledge should win

In terms of range Wolf's bair and fair beat most of Mario's options. His blaster is greater than Mario's fireballs but its not as versatile cause of the lag after so Mario wins in the projectile department cause of the setups. Wolf has a great punisher in Fsmash and can kill pretty fast with dsmash

Now Mario can juggle the hell out of Wolf in to many setups as ive seen fighting Bo X7. Utilt can juggle to about 20-30% til u can shine out, dthrow into some things, and in the air he can use uair to setup into some juggling. Also his fireballs too. He also has the gimping adv with the cape and fludd. People could argue if u DI right u dont gotta deal with that but thats based on the player so yeah Mario has the adv gimping wise

Overall its a player matchup better player wins. My kind of fight lol

Everything in red is a Mario advantage, everything in blue is Wolf. How is it a 50:50/45:55 Wolf if you gave Mario more positives?

Inferno3044 · Oct 18, 2009

_Kain_ said:
Overall its a player matchup better player wins. My kind of fight lol

That is the definition of an even MU. And as mad said, you stated more advantages for Mario than Wolf and yet you say Wolf might have a slight lead. According to your logic is might be 55:45 Mario, which I doubt is the case. It actually sounds kinda even to me with all of this said.

hippiedude92 said:
l still could have swore all of us back then said it was 6/4 Wolf, what changed in the matchup? lol.

It's change. Change we can all believe in.

MidnightAsaph · Oct 18, 2009

:mad: said:
Everything in red is a Mario advantage, everything in blue is Wolf. How is it a 50:50/45:55 Wolf if you gave Mario more positives?

Inferno3044 said:
That is the definition of an even MU. And as mad said, you stated more advantages for Mario than Wolf and yet you say Wolf might have a slight lead. According to your logic is might be 55:45 Mario, which I doubt is the case. It actually sounds kinda even to me with all of this said.

"In terms of range Wolf's bair and fair beat most of Mario's options"

Just because one character has a bigger list of advantages doesn't mean that they all outweigh a single important advantage, like the one quoted above, on another.

Also, it's not like Kain described every possible aspect of the MU. Like I've said before, we can't say the MU has been looked into with true experience.

What we need to see is something like JJWolf versus Boss. Again, I don't know that much about Mario. Who is considered the best Mario, or amongst the best?

_Kain_ · Oct 18, 2009

Those are the basic advantages of the match up for this fight. And the adv for wolf is way more important than the ones u have which is range and priority our fair and bair beat out most of ur options. I basically described the basic advs for each char except described urs better. So here lemme put it more clear this time since u took one paragraph of me describing Mario's POSSIBLE setups and i didnt give any of Wolf's. What wolf has to beat Mario-Range, killing power, blaster>fireball. And Mario has-Juggling, gimping. Its jus the basics of the match up. The players skill level is what determines who will win in this but wolf does have the slight adv.

:mad: · Oct 18, 2009

Asaph said:
"In terms of range Wolf's bair and fair beat most of Mario's options"

Just because one character has a bigger list of advantages doesn't mean that they all outweigh a single important advantage, like the one quoted above, on another.

This is the exact response I expected. I was talking about his personal ratio. The reasons he gave didn't add up to an advantage, having range that limits our options (which isn't true in the least) doesn't mean Wolf has the upper hand.

Also, it's not like Kain described every possible aspect of the MU. Like I've said before, we can't say the MU has been looked into with true experience.

Can't argue with that.

What we need to see is something like JJWolf versus Boss. Again, I don't know that much about Mario. Who is considered the best Mario, or amongst the best?

I don't think there is a best Mario. Boss is the only one that could've came close.

EDIT: Wow. Matchup discussions suck.

_Kain_ · Oct 19, 2009

Yes MU's do suck which is why i try to stay away from them @__@ ratios are dumb its bestto jus have ur own personal opinion from what uve experienced and run with that i jus tried to give the basics of what the match wud depend on

MidnightAsaph · Oct 19, 2009

Yeah, I'll third that, MUs suck. I mean, top tier characters against top tier characters: always easier. But for us low and mid tiers, not easy.

This is mostly off theory craft, I guess. Hopefully we'll see more action from Boss against someone like JJWolf.

I've seen some of the things that Mario can do, and unfortunately, because mid/low tier MUs suck, I'd throw it at fifty-fifty; but it feels like a cop-out when I say this. I mean, both characters have their strengths, and even if Wolf or Mario had even the smallest bit of an advantage over the other, like Wolf's ability to kill over Mario (we established this, correct), would that really merit a 55:45?

I'm not sure, I'll leave you guys to decide, especially since I barely have any MU experience.

:mad: · Oct 19, 2009

It's just a shame that every character has nearly twenty-five 50:50 matchups because some people don't want to overestimate a character.

Wolf has the advantage, no less than 60:40. He has safer killing options and has the potential to space better than Mario can. Mario only has the edge on damage racking. Gimping doesn't play a big role because it doesn't happen every game. Otherwise, Mario would 70:30 half the cast. Nobody except Link should be getting gimped in SSBB.

Matt07 · Oct 19, 2009

That's even if we can approach Link, Straked. We're basically being aggresive against Link (because of his wide array of projectiles) which means he's not going offstage, unless he makes a mistake that we capitilize on. And that being said Link can like DI a fresh usmash at probably 150%...

But I'm supposed to be discussing Wolf not Link

.

Famous · Oct 19, 2009

I can say one thing, Wolf is harder to gimp than fox and falco...You can pretty much jab fox/falco near the ledge forcing them to use UpB....Wolf on the other hand you cannot most of the time

A2ZOMG · Oct 19, 2009

Wolf is easier to edgeguard however. His recovery moves are much easier to punish on reaction. N-air gets him out of his SideB. You can Cape/edgehog his Up-B on reaction. Even if Wolf DIs, his options are overall pretty limited offstage in general due to his fast fall speed.

Wolf's KO options are not significantly safer than Mario's honestly. He does have more range, but usually if you attack at the same time, you will trade hits for about equal damage.

The advantage as I'm saying depends on stage...I guess you could argue it's in Wolf's favor since he does win on FD and SV, but like on any other stage with more varied terrain, there is more to use to work around his relatively straightforward zoning. He's not a particularly threatening juggler, and his blaster only goes horizontally, so platforms help against him. Any stage that pressures recovery I think affects Wolf more in general due to the nature of Mario's gimp tools. Low ceilings are good against him due to his lack of reliable vertical killers. All in all I think Mario has more exploits against Wolf in terms of stage counterpicking.

Inferno3044 · Oct 19, 2009

:mad: said:
It's just a shame that every character has nearly twenty-five 50:50 matchups because some people don't want to overestimate a character.

Wolf has the advantage, no less than 60:40. He has safer killing options and has the potential to space better than Mario can. Mario only has the edge on damage racking. Gimping doesn't play a big role because it doesn't happen every game. Otherwise, Mario would 70:30 half the cast. Nobody except Link should be getting gimped in SSBB.

It might just be that Mario can fight most characters pretty well. Like maybe some evens can be 55:45 in either direction (although I think most of them are in fact even), but most of them are even meaning its mostly based on knowing the characters moves and skill and what you can do against them.

Do you seriously think its no less then 60:40? A 60:40 disadvantage means you gotta really put in the extra effort to win. A 65:35 disadvantage means that the one with the disadvantage has really gotta know what they are doing to win. 70:30 disadvantage means you probably won't win in professional play unless you punish almost every mistake. There's some things though that can't be shown on a piece of paper. For example, on paper it can be argued that Marth vs. Mario is 70:30 Marth. I'm going to tell you right now that's wrong. It's 60:40 imo. I play Pierce a lot and he kicks my *** almost every time. Even with our giant skill gap, I can tell that ratio doesn't make sense because I now know Marth very well and how to fight him. Honestly, fighting him head on is good, but on a piece of paper it's a completely stupid idea because you don't think "Well once Mario gets in, he has a speed advantage." You think "Marth is gonna keep him out." There are some things for Wolf like the ones you said that make it appear that Wolf can have a solid advantage, but it isn't like that in reality.

Honestly, I think it's even because they both have things to fight each other. Wolf can space Mario very well and Mario can juggle Wolf to oblivion. If not this than 55:45 Wolf. 60:40 is too much.

Well that's my little MU rant.

Matador · Oct 20, 2009

:mad: said:
It's just a shame that every character has nearly twenty-five 50:50 matchups because some people don't want to overestimate a character.

More because the scale is extremely small. No one wants to go pass 70:30 because they'll automatically lose credibility, so when we rate, it's hard to differentiate TL vs Mario from Diddy vs Mario. Completely different matchups played totally differently, yet they have the same ratios. True, this CAN happen, but it cannot possibly be true for the majority of our evens and slight disadv. matchups. That's not necessarily our fault, but more the fault of the community's collective mindset.

Btw, I never realized how great a job you've been doing with this thread Inferno. Kudos for the front pages and moreso for keeping up with it.

waterfall6464 · Oct 20, 2009

So, is it 45:55 or 40:60?

I guess it depends on stage, but it's never easy to decide what's what with these obscure matchups..

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Oct 20, 2009

Why some ppl saying 60/40 Wolf? Wth?

Inferno3044 · Oct 20, 2009

Matador said:
Btw, I never realized how great a job you've been doing with this thread Inferno. Kudos for the front pages and moreso for keeping up with it.

Thank you Matador. That's a nice thing to hear. I just like helping people by letting them have information. I might make some discussion thread some time when I feel like it.

JUDGE · Oct 21, 2009

matador is right
you do a really good job inferno
glad to have you hear^^

to the topic: like lil g said
why do people say 60:40 wolf?
sure wolf can out space mario pretty well and he has his gtfo fsmash, his dsmash for the kill,his shine for combo breaker and his spacing bair

but mario has also hie weapons.
fireball approach works very well as long as ou stay unpredictable with it and just toss one fireball.
we can juggle the **** out of wolf with uptilt,upair, and bair
and we have a lot of setups for it like dair, uptilt,dthrow fireball >whatever
and we can gimpwolf very hard with FLUDD,nair and the cape
our ground game may not be as good as wolfs but we do have our tilts(except dtilt^^) our lovely jab which can lead in more tilts or grabs
and we have our 5 frames dsmash which is a killer when fresh and a good gtfo move
seariously this MU is at worst a 55:45 wolf

A2ZOMG · Oct 21, 2009

Once you factor counterpicks, I'd wager this matchup is even.

Mario as far as I'm concerned has more going for him when it comes to counterpicking. Mario gets some various autocancels and ways to improve his camping on non-flat terrain, while Wolf doesn't get any real changes to his game on different stages (rather, it's harder for him to camp if the stage is not flat). Any stage that pressures recovery means more opportunities to get cheap gimps with the Cape and FLUDD.

Inferno3044 · Oct 21, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Once you factor counterpicks, I'd wager this matchup is even.

Mario as far as I'm concerned has more going for him when it comes to counterpicking. Mario gets some various autocancels and ways to improve his camping on non-flat terrain, while Wolf doesn't get any real changes to his game on different stages (rather, it's harder for him to camp if the stage is not flat). Any stage that pressures recovery means more opportunities to get cheap gimps with the Cape and FLUDD.

There are some stages that would help Mario/hinder Wolf well like Lylat and Castle Siege and places that would go the other way like FD and Delfino. I do think that Mario benefits from more stages, but I'm fully sure how much that would affect a ratio.

I'm unsure between even and 55:45 Wolf. I think it might be in between

JUDGE · Oct 22, 2009

frigate orpheon can screw up wolfs recovery as well^^

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Oct 22, 2009

This is what I mean, if we counter-pick Wolf on Frigate and Brinstar, the match-up can be even. Flat stages is gonna be in Wolf's favor, I can see it.

The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

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