The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

:mad: · Apr 16, 2009

Yeah, the Lucario discussion went nowhere, since nobody wrote anything on how to beat him.

KirinBlaze · Apr 16, 2009

gogogogogo. I'm eager to hear all the Marth discussion. xD

:mad: · Apr 16, 2009

I like to pretend Marth doesn't exist...

KirinBlaze · Apr 16, 2009

Straked said:
I like to pretend Marth doesn't exist...

Marth really isn't bad. I play a very good one offline all the time. I don't lose to Marth around here. :D

CPU? · Apr 16, 2009

id say R.O.B.

:mad: · Apr 16, 2009

What? What about ROB?

DtJ XeroXen · Apr 16, 2009

I wanna do Marth next, that's my second most hated matchup. It seems we're done with the Lucario one anyway, since nobody wants to believe its 40:60.

But we just did the one I reccomended, so yeah... good stuff.

Monk/Honkey/Banana · Apr 16, 2009

XeroXen said:
I wanna do Marth next, that's my second most hated matchup. It seems we're done with the Lucario one anyway, since nobody wants to believe its 40:60.

But we just did the one I reccomended, so yeah... good stuff.

Lucario isn't in the difficulty range of Snake...I'm sorry man...

The match-ups are similar in the fact that you need to know your spacing and you need to get low% kills to put pressure on....however, Snake is a hell of alot more powerful and a hell of alot more quicker

DtJ XeroXen · Apr 16, 2009

It's all good, I know the Lucario matchup just sucks extra hard against me.

I fare better against Snake than I do Lucario, it really, really sucks. I'm learning the matchup, so it probably won't be that way for long. Lucario really just counters the way I play, and I couldn't adapt quick enough at my last tournament.

But honestly, I hardly care about the ratio, I have my own little ratios about how I do against certain characters. :D, but I always keep in mind what you're SUPPOSED to do against those characters. I just hadn't heard of the Lucario matchup at all, and I found out about it too late. Placed uber low because of it. (Sorry about not placing well, btw, I'm contributing to the whole "Marios place bad" thing)

It's all good, if 45:55 works for you guys, then it works for me.

Inferno3044 · Apr 16, 2009

So Marth discussion starts now? Btw i need this because my friend is the best Marth in NJ(Pierce7d) and he ***** me so bad it wasn't even funny.

Darknid · Apr 16, 2009

I heard marth was 80-20 fair advantage

Alfa · Apr 17, 2009

Hey, I am a lucario main and after reading through the discussion on Lucario I think either 55-45 or 57.5-42.5 would be the most accurate.

Here is how I see the match.
At a distance, Lucario's Aura Sphere outranges fireballs, but thanks to Mario's cape I doubt he'll be hit.
At a moderate distance Mario can make use of his fireballs, and cape to force Lucario to approach.
At a close range Lucario disjointed hitboxes give him an advantage over Mario.
Up close both characters can also combo and juggle each other, but Mario's combos and juggles can be interuppted by the Lucario stalling with Dair.
I think that due to Lucario's range on the ground and his counter (although it is rarely used) can prevent Mario from killing with his smashes easily.
When Mario is recovering Lucario can make use of Fairs and Dairs to keep Mario off the edge.
When Lucario is recovering he should be able to get around most of Mario's attacks and capes with extremespeed, but if the Mario is able to hit Lucario with FLUDD it may push him to far out to recover.
With good DI either character can DI into the corners of the stage, making it easy for them to recover, Mario with fireballs and Lucario with his floatiness.

I think that Lucario should stay in the air during this match to prevent fireball spam and because he is superior to Mario in the air; and that Mario should stay away from an airborne Lucario, but instead attack him when he lands, approaching diagonally through the air with a fireball then hitting him during hitstun. Mario's should note than Lucario's back air is slow, so getting behind an airborne Lucario could be good for you, but watch out for an Utilt when you land, because it is fast and starts behind him.

HeroMystic · Apr 17, 2009

Straked said:
Yeah, the Lucario discussion went nowhere, since nobody wrote anything on how to beat him.

**** him up.

A2ZOMG · Apr 17, 2009

Most of my experience vs Marth is online...I'm sorry to say...I have played REALLY good Marth players though. Heard of Connor? He's pretty **** with Falco and Marth and he's in my state.

Really Marth doesn't bother me, even if he has the advantage. You can beat him pretty solidly as long as you have good spacing. Marth doesn't have insanely safe shield pressure, and you must keep this in mind at all times. Your general approach to this matchup aside from drawing out the approach with fireballs and stage control is shielding and jumping out of shield, to punish him with Up-B or B-air of course, and keep in mind, it's not ENTIRELY as simple as that but it should be your main focus until you can pick up on more of his patterns. Be careful when dodging because Marth is VERY good at punishing predicted dodges, however if you spotdodge/shield one of his Smashes, he is wide open.

This matchup is a lot like the Peach matchup IMO. Except there is significantly more focus on gimping Marth, and you have to play more carefully to not get KOed. Also in the same way like the Peach matchup, this matchup is a LOT more balanced than it was in Melee.

I watched some vids of TC1, and just saying, Marth can get out of U-tilt chains with Up-B. Be ready for that, especially on BF.

Matador · Apr 17, 2009

Judge Judy said:
I thought Marth's Fair came out in 4 frames.

They told me 3 -_-

Either way, the ending lag on it is what makes the difference since he can DJ so fast afterwards.

Best Marth I've played is Neo. If you can consistently gimp him, you can keep the matchup under your control. Our Nair beats his upB from the top. You'll trade hits, but the initial hit of upB is the only scary thing about the attack; just don't eat that part with your Nair. Basically, take advantage of his shortcomings, don't be afraid to upB or Fludd to ruin spacing. Keep him above you since he's weak from below. Gimp him, and watch out for his grab range. It has stupid long reach.

And resist all urges to capestall when you're above him. Stay as close to the ground as possible here.

I'm thinking about just doing all matchup discussions amongst ourselves...The other boards rarely ever offer anything relevant. Just a thought...especially since we have to go to the Marth boards again. They usually reject low tiers trying to discuss the matchup a second time.

A2ZOMG · Apr 17, 2009

LOL...so not fair Matador. XD

You played NEO?! Jesus ****ing Christ! I so wish there were vids of that!

Btw his F-air is indeed 3 frames....wtf.

Famous · Apr 17, 2009

Most Marths play the same...Neo, Kadaj, Steel2nd... The only difference is how fast and aggresive they play.

CPU? · Apr 17, 2009

so are we done with lucario? and if so what did straked decide on?

:mad: · Apr 17, 2009

I'm trying to find an extremely gay picture of Marth for the OP, gimme a second.

HeroMystic · Apr 17, 2009

When it comes to Marth, I think Matador and I are the most egotistical about it. He really is not difficult though.

KirinBlaze · Apr 17, 2009

So this happened earlier today. I was playing my friends Marth and he tells me that my 'water gun' is useless. So I'm all "Ok." and we proceeded to play Mario/Marth on Final Destination. Match goes on, I'm down by a 110% on our last stock. I go into beast mode and combo/space the **** out of him and quickly take him to 130%. He approached me with a full hop Fair so I use my half-charged FLUDD and stop his Fair in midair, RJCUp Smash, he dies.

Yeah..Marth.

bobson · Apr 18, 2009

Straked said:
I'm trying to find an extremely gay picture of Marth for the OP, gimme a second.

FIHL is wonderful against Marth.

Inferno3044 · Apr 18, 2009

that is a great pic. Btw i'll go to the marth boards if nobody else wants to. My friend mains Marth and seconds Mario so maybe he can help.

A2ZOMG · Apr 18, 2009

HeroMystic said:
When it comes to Marth, I think Matador and I are the most egotistical about it. He really is not difficult though.

I've seen you play Marths and RAAAAAPE. =)

God****, this makes me want to play someone like JunkintheTrunk or mikeHAZE so bad. I know in Fall 2009 I'm going to probably be making it into the same college Junk is in (UC Santa Barbara). I feel like a nub cause I get SO LITTLE IRL PLAYTIME!

Famous · Apr 18, 2009

Don't feel bad, you'll get more time soon enough...

:mad: · Apr 18, 2009

Bobson only shows up when he's needed... he heard our cries for help.
tanks 4 pix.

MorphedChaos · Apr 18, 2009

I'd like to suggest that you guys do Wario soon, wanna know what the Marios think of the Warios.

hippiedude92 · Apr 18, 2009

Marf is only hard if spaces at 100% tip range which is inhuman lol. The one thing thats a key is that YOU MUST get him into a combo @ 0%.. he eats like 30%or35% ish, since hes weak from below. Since hes so tall, hes very fun to hit with upairs :laugh:

HeroMystic · Apr 18, 2009

Matador said:
I'm thinking about just doing all matchup discussions amongst ourselves...The other boards rarely ever offer anything relevant. Just a thought...especially since we have to go to the Marth boards again. They usually reject low tiers trying to discuss the matchup a second time.

The Marth boards are a cynical bunch, with the belief that they 'know-it-all'. At the very least, I would agree that the Marth boards in general should be avoided for this matchup discussion if we want this to go smoothly.

The last thing I wanna hear is 'D-tilt ***** Mario'.

A2ZOMG said:
I've seen you play Marths and RAAAAAPE. =)

There's too many Marths in Florida. Someone has to put them in their place.

Matador · Apr 18, 2009

Famous said:
Most Marths play the same...Neo, Kadaj, Steel2nd... The only difference is how fast and aggresive they play.

QFT

I know that Neo has very little holes in his playstyle for Mario to punish, especially with his use of the pivot grab. He's tall enough that he can actually grab you out of a SH and has range long enough to snatch you out of an attack without endangering himself.

Like Hippie said, once you have him, keep him above you. Utilt is especially important for this reason.

And yea, I don't like the Marth boards too much.

MorphedChaos · Apr 18, 2009

Utilt is really good for Mario in this matchup, and Marth is pretty easy to gimp I'd think with FLUUD, or cape.

FrankPizzi · Apr 18, 2009

Marth is a pretty hard match up since he kills you pretty easy with his Fsmash, if tippered.You can punish his Fsmash with a block, stutter step Fsmash.What you'll want to do vs a Marth is space your moves, when you find an openning use your fireballs, and use fireballs when retreating. If your on Marth, keep the pressure, don't give him a chance to escape. Use FIHL, and punish him, I'd use an upair and continue with that. Marth is better in the air then Mario, so stay low and combo on the ground, unless he's wide open for an aerial attack. You should be looking out for his Fsmash mostly, his Left B, his grabs, and his upB.From my experience, I'd probably choose Battle Field as a counter pick, because you can keep the pressure and have a better chance of racking up damage in the air.Also can stage spike him. You should be killing Marth at 90% with Fsmash ,if fresh, and Upsmash kills him at 120%.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

A2ZOMG · Apr 18, 2009

Marth's F-smash doesn't kill any earlier than yours unless he tippers it IIRC. You can punish his F-smash easily on block with stutter step F-smash all the time.

Your up-angled F-smash'll kill him at like 90% if fresh. Up-smash kills him at 120%.

And this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns8Ljzw7P-Y

jmanxiv · Apr 18, 2009

I really can't find marth difficult, Spacing yourself against marth is very important against this match up. The Fludd also helps a lot againsts marths fair.

Steel · Apr 18, 2009

HeroMystic said:
The Marth boards are a cynical bunch, with the belief that they 'know-it-all'. At the very least, I would agree that the Marth boards in general should be avoided for this matchup discussion if we want this to go smoothly.

The last thing I wanna hear is 'D-tilt ***** Mario'.

If you want it to go smoothly you invite each character board to discuss the match, not rely on your own opinions. Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?

And dtilt does **** mario, destroys his entire ground game and forces reactions which Marth can punish.

While you can do good damage once inside, getting there is definitely a problem. You also can't expect to do so consistently, Marth has much better close range tools than you which can severely limit your options.

Your cape and fludd are gay offstage, but Marth does well edge guarding Mario as well.

65:35 probably.

Also I just reread our discussion we had a few months ago and saw this:

HeroMystic said:
I think we covered everything unless you wanna be super-detailed. The match-up is pretty straightforward. And 65:35 Advantage for Marth is generally agreed upon.

Gotta say though this discussion was a lot smoother than most of the other match-up discussions I've dealt with. I like these boards.

You guys are silly.

Matt07 · Apr 18, 2009

Uuh I guess I'll try this match-up thing. I only play online hence why I stopped participating in match-up's but whatever lol.

Biggest concern in this match-up is getting inside of Marth's range. Practically anything he uses outranges us, however or stutter stepped fsmash out ranges a lot of his moves. However Marth's safest options to keep us out imo is his Dancing Blade, and f-air and they'll be using that a lot. Marth can also interrupt our combo's with his up B, but so can we. Uuh Marth's is fairly light and fsmash can result in a stock at 90-100%. Marth has troubles KO'ing with proper DI, unless you eat a tipped attack.

There's my 2 cents.

FrankPizzi · Apr 18, 2009

Steel2nd said:
If you want it to go smoothly you invite each character board to discuss the match, not rely on your own opinions. Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?

And dtilt does **** mario, destroys his entire ground game and forces reactions which Marth can punish.

While you can do good damage once inside, getting there is definitely a problem. You also can't expect to do so consistently, Marth has much better close range tools than you which can severely limit your options.

Your cape and fludd are gay offstage, but Marth does well edge guarding Mario as well.

65:35 probably.

Also I just reread our discussion we had a few months ago and saw this:

You guys are silly.

I'd say a 60:40 match up :/

Steel · Apr 18, 2009

FrankPizzi said:
I'd say a 60:40 match up :/

Hmm, na h.

Emblem Lord said:
Metador: Your first few sentences in that last post summarize the match-up. Mario really shouldn't be winning which is what makes it 65/35 or more. 60/40 is honestly still in the realm of "you will win every once in awhile". When in reality Mario would really only be winning once in a blue moon.

Marth has all the tools to control the fight and keep Mario on the defensive.

:mad: · Apr 18, 2009

65:35 is more than generous, but that does put Marth on par with Meta Knight. When imagining each side of the ratio, you have to consider that both people controlling the characters are playing to the best of their ability, and they're about the same. (In predicting, punishing, overall skill.)

65:35 seems most appropriate. I'd only go with 60:40 because Marth's recovery isn't anywhere near as good as Meta Knight's, making him all the more gimpable, and make a win for Mario more possible than a win over a Meta Knight.

Famous · Apr 18, 2009

To be honest, this matchup is 50:50 if you know it. Marth has faster moves and longer range...so what...

It would be 60:40 if you don't know the matchup at all
MK is 65:35 regardless of knowing the matchup or not...

The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

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