Brawl+ Character Balance : Character 6: ICE CLIMBERS (LAST THOUGHTS)

For our next character we will be talking about the Ice Climbers. The Ice Climbers are from the game, aptly named, Ice Climber. It was released in 1985 for the NES. After the game was released, no one really heard from them for a long time. That is until Melee was released and they were included as a surprise character. Personally, I'd say the Ice Climbers are one of the most innovative fighters not only in the Smash Universe, but in fighting games in general.



Innovation can sometimes lead to problems and that is why we are going to discuss the Ice Climbers. This thread will work a little differently from how the other discussions worked. There will probably be more arguments in this thread, but none the less, I will demand that we treat each other with respect. Fight the persons ideas, not the person posting.

Now this topic will centralize around the Ice Climber's infinite grab game. Basically, are the Ice Climbers fine with their current 'Don't get grabbed' playstyle or do we want to remove their infinites in favor of buffing their other tools? Another way to phrase it would be: Is it better for competitive play for the Ice Climber's to have these infinites or should we remove them and buff other moves?

Whichever stance you take, I'd like to see reasons. 'It was fine in Melee/Brawl' isn't a reason. Neither is 'Infinites are gay.' I'm interested to see how this topic will go. Please get any IC mains into this thread that you can. Keep the discussion civilized and intelligent.

LAST THOUGHTS

I feel the points have been made in this thread. The arguments have become repetitive and right now it seems we are just using theory to back our points. Some are using theory to 'fix' the infinites saying that TOs might ban it down the road, or that it will centralize their gameplay too much making them only useful in specific matchups. Other are against the changes, saying we don't need to 'fix' the CGs saying that we don't have enough experience to change this mechanic.

For those not in the Back Room, we will most likely evaluate the points made in this topic and reach a decision. In this posters belief, I wouldn't expect any changes to the ICs any time soon. Hopefully we can get Beta 4 out for you guys this week! Thanks for the participation. I'll leave this topic open til midnight EST and then I'm gonna shut it down. Most likely this will be the last character discussion for the time being. If there is anyone you guys would like to discuss post it here. We have discussed:

1. Bowser
2. Yoshi
3. Lucas
4. King DeDeDe
5. Samus
6. Ice Climbers

I'm am just thinking out loud with this, but feel free to call it stupid anyway. How about adding lots of hitlag to the ice climber that connects with the hit, and letting the player use the other climber to try to continue a combo, and make it much easier to de-sync the two? We could remove their infinite grab while still preserving their uniqueness and intent behind the character.

Make them more of a two in one character rather than the single character that you can do some fancy chaingrabbing with that they are currently. The ice climbers aren't really that unique as is, but really splitting them would be a whole idea. Is that type of thing even possible?

Again, just throwing out ideas. If you don't want some sweeping change, that's cool.

I just want to see what they would be like without their chaingrabs: what would they play like? Would they still be good? Would they need different nerfs/buffs? We don't really know a lot about how good IC are without their grabs, so that's something I'd like to know before we start discussing about it.

When I played Brawl+ for the first time with my ICs, I found it really hard to get the grab when I faced characters like Captain Falcon.

I can still do CGs but I can't do them well since they slip so much it's hard to control them.

Their movement overall is kinda hard to cope with honestly, I wouldn't mind having them lose their ability to chaingrab, but it will make them pretty bad IMO.

Flying Dutchman said:

I just want to see what they would be like without their chaingrabs: what would they play like? Would they still be good? Would they need different nerfs/buffs? We don't really know a lot about how good IC are without their grabs, so that's something I'd like to know before we start discussing about it.

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I agree with this statement. It's tough to tell. I don't know of any good ICs that play Brawl+.

Edit: And an IC main posts seconds before me. Lolz

The theory JustNoOne would be that if they lost CGs they'd gain something in return. I don't play ICs though so I can offer suggestions, sadly.

But what would they gain in return? I don't know anything extensive on how people do stuff to Brawl to make it Brawl+ other than hacking your Wii and adding certain codes to change the properties of stuff, so how do you give them something? 0.0

I really don't know what they would get in return that would make them "even": more damage output? a little more traction when they move? I honestly believe they're good how they are, but that's me :3

JustNoOne said:

But what would they gain in return? I don't know anything extensive on how people do stuff to Brawl to make it Brawl+ other than hacking your Wii and adding certain codes to change the properties of stuff, so how do you give the msomething? 0.0

I really don't know what they would get in return that would make them "even": more damage output? a little more traction when they move? I honestly believe they're good how they are, but that's me :3

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We can do tons of things. Change the angles that an attack sends someone, have them deal more percentage damage, increase the knockback on skills, make them move faster, make attacks faster, give them more traction. The list goes on. Try posting an idea on what you think would help their game and someone should be able to tell you if its feasible.

Either way, indirectly you brought up a good point about grabbing being harder now a days. Combos allow the ICs to be split up easier and shield stun prevents overpowered shield grabbing.

I had a few ideas for this character as its one that doesnt sit right with me. With the return of the higher buffer (through the handicap buffer code) we now face the possibility of the one mistake into an infinite problem that we are all afraid of. Here are my suggestions on the character that should help to keep their playstyle alive without allowing them to have an unDIable infinite.

Ok first off lets remove the throw to throw CG:
How to do this is to make it so that Nana cannot grab for X number of frames after Popo throws (that is to be determined later)

Nextly we have to buff the character to allow them to still be playable.

Basic move buffs that would help them as a character and help with their unique playstyle:

Less winddown on neutral B - allows for more approach and missed tech to grab opportunities

Less winddown on F tilt - better poking ability

Fair comes out faster and always meteors - better aerial approach and combos from throw to another grab

Nair has more KB - good as that aerial GTFO move

fB hits have less KB and less scaling KB - this allows the ICer player to do things such as throw to forward B to grab, but also allows the opponent to DI and hope to avoid the next grab

Aerial fB has less gravity allowing a better recovery

Down and B has less hitlag - this allows the ICers to link throws to down and B or grabs with down and B for damage and still allows a change to DI

Down smash - comes out faster and windsdown faster but with less KBG. Good GTFO move.

Down air - less KB and no KBG. This allows for the old D throw to dair to grab again. Nana dairs out of Popo throws

Dash attack has less KB and KBG - this allows for a few grab and combo setups especially on heavier chars.

I think this makes them a great character and still uses their unique style without ruining them and gets rid of their unDIable infinite.

Well since I honestly only play with them in Brawl+ for one game, my opinions shouldn't really be taken seriously since I have little experience compared to someone playing Brawl+.

I find that if they do lose their ability to CG, they should be able to at least be able to make their Ftilt faster. I find it's somewhat slow for Brawl+ and they only thing they have to attack with infront of them are Fsmashs and jabs.

Their aerial movement really is sloopy IMHO, it's like trying to move Ganondorf in Brawl and really it's hard to control them in the air, maybe a bit more control in the air would be fine.

Their traction on ground is troublesome, but I think it's good enough, I sort of have good control with them but it would be nice to have just a bit more traction.

That's all I can think of right now.

I am on the side with remove the infinite and instead buff them in other ways to make them a great character.

I am against the infinites in Brawl as well as Brawl+. Combos to death are one thing. You have to read your opponents DI, use the correct attacks, etc. These are very dependent on your opponents skill with their ability to try and escape these combos.

The Ice Climbers infinite however is completely separate from your opponent. Once trapped, provided the ICs do not mess up (which wouldn't happen to a ICs main or someone who has put some practice into it) the opponent loses 100% of control and are forced beyond will to be killed when grabbed at any percent.

Some argue that it's quite situational. While there are some things that limit it such as Nana being gone, or the two of them not close enough to each other to perform it right away, and the ability to mash out at very low percents (below 20 I would guess, though if you are grabbed at 0 it can still be an infinite if they are next to each other).

If every other throw in the game is used for either spacing, killing at high percents, or comboing, why should we let this grab that can mean death at any percent be allowed?

Once big argument for this in vBrawl was that if we took it away, ICs would be next to worthless, why take something away when they weren't top tier as it is. However this is not vBrawl, this is Brawl+, which we have control over. Besides the fact that I still think they are a good character even without the infinite, we can take away the infinite literally (so we're not just banning it as a rule), and then buff the ICs in other aspects to make them a very viable character. They have so many unique attributes that we can take advantage of to make them amazing and a completely separate character from the rest of the cast. It's all about how they are played. If you take a player who plays ICs only to CG and take it away, yea they will suck. If you look at Melee however, even after wobbling was finally banned generally, there were still players like Wobbles or ChuDat that showed the character could still be good without the grab, which I feel is the same situation in Brawl. The infinite is such a great technique that people haven't discovered the character too much outside of it.

Edit: I just read Cape's suggestions and loved pretty much all of them.

'Infinites are gay.'

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Though I usually argue for them anyway. Not this time though. Now that we are actually making the game I don't want infinites in it.

Cape has pretty much covered everything I wanted. Getting rid of the throw to throw infinites but adding plenty of DIable throw loops. I really think that the squall needs to be able to be better to uses for regrabbing at almost anytime during a stock. The downair change mentioned above would be awesome too, but I do think a little bit of KBG would be good. Adding a lot of possible throw loops that have to be DIed differently to escape the regrab would keep the ice climbers throw game deadly but it also would make it so the opponent has a reason to keep attempting to escape.

Beyond just that, I would like to look into new possibilities for starting desyncing. It would enhance their play and make them more complex.

Also, if we went about the buffs I suggested it would also buff the single climber as well and make him a playable character.

Buffing SoPo and SoNa would be nice, but really it doesn't add much, they did lose their partner; so they should just 1/2 as weak as they originally were.

Don't forget about upping the dthrow kb as well. I believe popo can still CG until a high percent and that move is not very DIable. Or we can change the launch angle of the dthrow.

So far we have only seen 1 IC main. I posted on their boards to get their thoughts.

I doubt anyone from the ICs are active now, I believe very few of us ICs mains in Brawl actually played Brawl+.

Why can't you make it so that the animation of a character getting thrown by the ICs ungrabbable?

Like when they plop out from the grabbing animation, why not for a certain time frame, make those animations ungrabbable and problem solved?!?1

Opinions and Ideas are still worth something, especially from an IC main.

I like the IC alternate hitting combo idea. Maybe makes lots of moves with low growth in KB to make comboing easier on them but still DIable.

Just No One

That was actually one of the first things mentioned in my post. Its one of the ideas that we are considering.

Yeah, Nana can try and grab your opponent when they are in the ploping animation, but is there something in Brawl+ where people can make a animation ungrabable? Like the super-armor animation for grabs instead of attacks?

The Cape said:

Just No One

That was actually one of the first things mentioned in my post. Its one of the ideas that we are considering.

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But isn't that grabbing out of hitstun? Why would you want to disable grabbing out of hitstun? Doesn't sound like the right solution unless you are only referring to nana if that is possible

Saying that Popo throws and as he is throwing and completeing the throw animation Nana is unable to grab for X number of frames.

It is only limited to when Popo (or lead ICer) is throwing.

Couldnt we use the "fresh move" queue to help control CGs? LIke if x throws are within the cue, the move is disabled until x < y, y being the limit of throws within the cue?

Or is that just a pipe dream?

Can you make Nana behave like she did in melee, where you couldn't control her throws? That would solve the issue of infinites, and it could be easier to implement and feel less unnatural and arbitrary. I think you've already considered it though. :/

Maybe we should make it that you can't grab someone in hitstun and remove all CGs in B+.. idea?

Ussi said:

Maybe we should make it that you can't grab someone in hitstun and remove all CGs in B+.. idea?

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that is one of the worst ideas ever thought of

Bad idea -- say you Dair someone at a low percent on the ground and pop them up, why shouldn't you be able to grab them? Last week, SMK was Ness and Fair'd me then immediately grabbed me out of the air. It was awesome, why would you want to take that away?

I'm sure it was a hasty post. It seems good at first, but you think about it and I can cause problems. Let's continue with the discussion. SHeLL needs a 700th post.

I like the infinites. It gives them obvious good and bad matchups. It would make them a great counterpick against powerful, but not disjointed characters. It would also elevate the metagame as a whole since not getting grabbed for a death requires you to make substantially fewer mistakes than not getting hit for some percent.

The throw to throw I think is the only infinite left. The problem with it is the inability to DI out at all.

You literally have as much of a chance to get out by putting your controller down or unplugging it than anything else. If we can remove throw to throw but keep their chain grabbing abilities we can definetly create more options over all for the char and make them a better and more exciting character.

Remove Nana's grab. Reduce Popo's KB to allow small CGs up to 40%.

Or lengthen the delay of Nana, so it takes her longer copy Popo. The thing about the infinite is that Nana regrabs immediately after the throw. if Nana takes to long to grab though, the infinite is broken.

Sooo this method might allow for CGs that are percent specific, but could possibly remove the infinite.


Good idea?


EDIT: Bolded because I like that idea.

@Chibo Oyi, it was just a spur of the moment like goodoldganon said.

But I see the point now, cause some moves are used to lead to grabs. You could just explain WHY it's bad not just debunk it saying "its the worst idea ever"

Maybe make the first few frames of hitstun ungrabbable? I don't think there are any moves that go hit > grab that quickly since grab takes 6 frames at least so 5 frames of being ungrabbale?

Ussi said:

@Chibo Oyi, it was just a spur of the moment like goodoldganon said.

But I see the point now, cause some moves are used to lead to grabs. You could just explain WHY it's bad not just debunk it saying "its the worst idea ever"

Maybe make the first few frames of hitstun ungrabbable? I don't think there are any moves that go hit > grab that quickly since grab takes 6 frames at least so 5 frames of being ungrabbale?

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Captain Falcon does a jab, jab, grab combo.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v6476055Ws3SEs4g

Make this move require less button presses to achieve this.

Quick question, do the ICs have any redeeming factors beyond their throw? Surly someone has come up against a main that didn't go for throws.

Would it be possible to perhaps increase the stun on the moves of the cpu player to allow for better combo setups? Maybe a type of slow down effect for said cpu moves to relate back to their ice theme? What about giving their ice cube attack a reflective property as it moves across the stage and taking away the knock from the down b or increasing the time the person is encased in the ice? Don't know if any of this can be done but its worth a shot.

goodoldganon said:

Captain Falcon does a jab, jab, grab combo.

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But how long does it take for Falcon's grab to come out? (referring to last of my post saying having ungrabable frames for the fastest grab - 1 frames.

If that was to the first half, I know some characters do jab > grab..

Green'n'Clean said:

Can you make Nana behave like she did in melee, where you couldn't control her throws? That would solve the issue of infinites, and it could be easier to implement and feel less unnatural and arbitrary. I think you've already considered it though. :/

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That's almost as bad as removing Nana's grab. Personally I would prefer Cape's method, that would indirectly give them a very easy way to desynch, why? If you press the grab button only Popo would grab, because Nana has to wait a few more frames to be able to grab.
On the buff department, I'd really like it if Squall Hammer required less mashing to go up, I can only get it to max altitude in 1/2 speed. Another nice thing for Squall Hammer would be the ability to snap to ledges. Increasing the length of their "umbilical cord" would be pretty cool, not much, just enough to allow them to be desynched from slightly further.
Besides that, the ideas that Cape gave you sound pretty good, except the dair one, that'd be good for CG's yes, but not for much else, to not be so punishable when it hits, it would need more knockback, and also, if your considering no plummeting on their dair, don't, I would prefer it as an on-stage, high percentage finisher, than just being able to use it off-stage.