Farore's Apprentice - The Link Match-up Thread [Current Disscusion: Koopa Bowser]

Tektite · Mar 29, 2009

The Link Match-up Thread

Hello and welcome to the Link's match-up thread. As you all know Link can be a very fun character to play though lacks about everything a high tier has. Which brings us to the tiers or characters of SSBB. Each is unique and has their own advantages. But what advantages do they have on Link? What advantages does Link have against them? There are so many questions for each and every match-up. So the point of this thread is to help you against a certain character (*cough* Meta Knight *cough*) and what you should do to win against that character and show just what a low tier can do.

Uptates:

Now discussing Bowser

Edited Ike's write-up

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Powerman Ike [60:40 In Ike's Favor]

Advanced Techniques To Know:

Zair with bomb

Craq walking

Gale guarding

Zair edgeguarding

Phantom Boomerang

Bombslides

Bombslides into Fsmash

How do I spam properly?

Projectiles are key in this match-up. As you know Ike has short range attacks *note that his Fair is about the range as Link's Zair* and no projectiles so camping is best. For Ike, spamming defensively as in retreating projectiles are good. First off it's best to start with Zair with bomb tech, so basically you wanna short back hop Zair Ike then throw bomb. Do not spam approaching ethier use more farther range projectiles or wait for your enemy. This will kill Ike's gameplay. Phantom bommerang works well when your on the ledge, it spaces Ike fast and surprising. He won't be able to approach if you spam correctly which means you can't get touch. Another spam game is to space your enemy. Bombslides to Fsmash is good to maintain your space, the more space you got the more frustrating it is for Ike to hit you.

How do I edgeguard Ike properly?

Well you know that Ike has two recover moves, his Aether and his Quick Draw. The quick draw recovers horizontaly. For quick draw Gale Guarding is best to use. Now if you miss the Gale Guard you still can jump right in front of it to stop the move completely. The Aether is pretty tricky than Ike's other recover. It pretty much goes only vertically so Zair edgeguarding would be your favorble option. Just make sure you get the timing right *note that Aether can spike if you miss*.

How do I damage and kill Ike?

To damage Ike you have to do a little combination of projectiles and sword attacks. Craq walking works effectively to do a quick attack on Ike. Though the best thing to do would be to launch Ike into the air. Now you know that in air Ike can only defend by spot-on dodging or down B. Spot-on dodge can be pretty useless, why? Well because Link's Fair and Bair is a two hit move. Spot-on dodging's invinciblilty frames last shorter than the Fair or Bair's attack frames. So your sure to get a hit with the 2nd attack. The down B's counter frames appear only after the first few frames of the moves. So just make sure you don't hit during the counter frames. Now to kill Ike you wanna use attacks that will send him horizontaly. Trying to kill him vertically won't happen untill Ike's at around 130%. The pros of sending him horizontaly is that he cannot be able to get back to the stage and you'll be able to edgeguard him.

How do I not get damaged too much?

You want to be aware of the jab cancels an Ike will do.

Originally posted in the "I write for my friends" Ike guide
Crouching to stop your jab combo from finishing. To do this, after the second jab is finished, hit down for as short as possible. You can now jab normally without having to do a different move or wait for some time. This allows you to do AA, AA, AA as much as you want. (It's wise to keep an eye on your opponent though).

So the best way to get out of this combo is too press Zair *note that you have to SDI upwards to this* when Ike's crouching. It will *hopefully* hit Ike before he jabs you. Pretty much that's the only thing you can do to stop his jabs > jabs combo. Grabing can also be a big treat to you. Ike's grab is fast and you pretty much only have one option to avoid some barrages of grabs. Though remember that his grab is short range so space if needed. But some Ikes have their own way of successfully grabing, if your facing one of those people you can hold a bomb as long as you can. If Ike grabs you the bomb can explode breaking up the move. Ike's Fair is his best ranged move and fastest. Be aware of RARs. Shielding is the best way to defend and shield grabing is a good counter to do if you successfully shield. Now preventing it can be hard. As you know Ike's RAR is performed by running, taping the opposite direction and then pressing A. That means this can effect camping and spacing. So just try spamming foward bombs and arrows. If your way far from him then approach him with a bombslide into Fsmash. This will bring you a good amount, the bomb can hit Ike, and the Fsmash can stop him right in his tracks.

Best stages to counterpick Ike?

Counterpick: Pirate Ship

Ban: Norfair, now I can tell your like "WTF Nortfair?!" though it's Link's best stage Ike will just ignore that fact and will **** harder.

Videos:

Ryko (Ike) vs. Killa (Link)

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Koopa Bowser (write-up in progress)

SuSa · Mar 29, 2009

Tell the Ike boards to come contribute.

I closed it because it was getting spammy, out of date, and not really helpful.

It'd be easier to have 1 major thread, and have a thread like this be a "thread export" where we discuss it in this thread, but update the 1 major thread. (The + side of this is having multiple exports going at one time, then updating the major thread)

--bye, tourney time

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 29, 2009

I was making a rebuttel for the Marth/Link recovery, then it got closed. =(

Oh well, Ike is worth a shot.

Nitrix · Mar 29, 2009

Link seems like he has all of the tools to beat Ike. He can pressure with projectiles and he has the range and power in his smashes to cause problems with Ike's game.

I'd say 60-40 Link's favour.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 29, 2009

Well, Ike still out ranges Link in terms of close combat, kills earlier, and can recover better than Link.

:mad: · Mar 29, 2009

Granted he can recover better vertically, if you force a Quick Draw, he stands no chance.
Just zair.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 29, 2009

I don't think High level Ike's use Quick Draw oftenly, mostly using his UpB.

Incurable_Necrophile · Mar 29, 2009

... Anyone who thinks Link has an advantageous match up, let alone against IKE, has no idea how Link works. Period. Ike ***** the **** out of Link. See ArkiveZero vs Kirk. This match is stupid, lol. Zair is good, but it far from renders Ike helpless.. -.- Get some actual Link players here if you wanna discuss the character, you're all hopelessly optimistic.

Edit: GJ repping "Link" in that tourne, Hav2k.

ndayday · Mar 29, 2009

His moves have an easy time killing Link horizontaly. Now, you have to space yourself well to avoid getting jabbed into those painful 3 hit A combos, which is easy to do if you space yourself well and use a lot of Zair (10% max if hit right, and it doesn't stale). Ike's recovery can be hard to deal with, but you want to focus on getting him under the stage, and far from the ledge so he doesn't recover with his B-Over or Aether. If you see him attempting to get up on the stage with Aether, and not grabbing the ledge, try throwing your boomerang and getting in a double-hit D-Smash. (lol)

For racking up damage use a ton of projectiles, Zair, as well as a variety of helpful moves such as jab locks, etc. Heck, if you manage to use all your projectiles and Zair in the first part of the match, you can easily get an easy 30%, add 10% everytime you use Zair.

You just need to know how to space and use projectiles for this match-up, the only trouble you should be having is him knocking you of the edge and killing you thanks to your amazing recovery, and getting close enough to kill him since his close range attacks destroy you. You can use a pretty nice variety of moves to KO him once you get him to a decent percentage. 50/50 at the most.

That's about all I can offer.

KirinBlaze · Mar 29, 2009

Nitrix said:
Link seems like he has all of the tools to beat Ike. He can pressure with projectiles and he has the range and power in his smashes to cause problems with Ike's game.

I'd say 60-40 Link's favour.

While this is true Ike has the ability to KO even Link very early. He also has a lot more potential to get Link offstage then most people. An error in your spacing/spam game can result in a jab combo or Fair that will more then likely take Link offstage given he's in the mid-range of %'s.

Link's OOS game is very good here for one thing, punishing shielded Fair's. There's enough lag after it where you can grab, Usmash, and UpB OOS and punish him you can also do this to Ike's Jab IF he doesn't combat walk. Ike's Combat Walk will DESTORY you. Link is heavy and the fastest free faller in the game which makes Ike's combat walk especially effective on Link. The only thing Ike can do to you offstage is Fair or Bair, both of which can KO you early if you're not ready for it. They don't have the gimping capabilites of let's say Marth's Fair but can be dangerous in their own right with Ike's massive KO power.

Ike's recovery isn't so great either. If you can hit far away enough then hit him with an arrow or two by use of Double/Triple Draw on the edge of the stage you have the chance of getting a gimp, hitting him out of his FowardB may take a bit of timing though. In most cases though you're going to have to predict where he's going to land out of his FowardB and punish/edgehog him. If he's coming from below, leave him be. You run the risk of gimping yourself if you try and stop it thanks to Link's poor recovery. The sword at the edge stops you from just running off and he has SA frames on his UpB. So try and hit him far out and gimp him with arrows.

Link projectiles can cause problems in Ike's approach, especially Zair, but Link has a difficult time kicking people out if they manage to get through his camping and Ike is a character that can make you pay dearly for it at surprisingly low %'s.

This match-up is probably 55:45 in Ike's favor or 50:50. I'm leaning more toward 55:45 Ike though.

Link has a camp advantage. Ike has a punishment advantage. - Voyeur

In the end Ike's punishment can KO or gimp you hence the slight favor for Ike.

3xSwords · Mar 30, 2009

I see this a bit towards Link's advantage. Despite the fact that Ike gets lower % kills on Link, half of Ike's game is taken away thanks to Link's grab. Ike's aerial game is very ineffective as Link can just stay on the ground and shield grab. Ike must rely heavily on his jabs to rack up damage and due to move degeneration he will rack up damage at an even slower pace. If Link camps effectively the Ike will have a hard time even getting inside and then getting Link off stage for a spike or kill.

55-45 Link imo

Blubba_Pinecone · Mar 30, 2009

3xSwords said:
half of Ike's game is taken away thanks to Link's grab.

55-45;60:40 ~~Link~~ Ike imo

1st statement made me lol.

Fixed the second part.

3xSwords · Mar 30, 2009

screw me I meant offensive game which I very simplistically divided into land and ground.

Edit: Also Blubba it's still in Link's advantage

Looticforgothispassword · Mar 30, 2009

eww that Ike picture was ugly, his eyes make him look like a hammerfish.

Tektite · Mar 30, 2009

Looticforgothispassword said:
eww that Ike picture was ugly, his eyes make him look like a hammerfish.

Thats the point.

Blubba_Pinecone · Mar 30, 2009

3xSwords said:
Also Blubba it's still in Link's advantage

Hmm... nope. It's not. Watch the vids that Kirin mentioned, or perhaps try playing with a notable Ike player yourself. I would reccomend Renegade. I think Kirk only plays offline.

Rule of thumb: Link's easiest match-up is Link, because it's 50:50. Keep that in mind.

Incurable_Necrophile · Mar 30, 2009

A Link main finally shows up to help you guys out and you don't take his word for it? Blubba and Kirin both know Link better than the rest of these boards, they know Ike has advantage. Take note.

Edit: And yes, Link is his own easiest match up.

Tektite · Mar 30, 2009

Incurable_Necrophile said:
Edit: And yes, Link is his own easiest match up.

So that just makes Link even harder to win.

---------------------------------------------------

Some topics to start out with:

What ATs should I use on Ike?

How do I spam correctly against Ike?

Best and worst stages to pick against Ike?

How do I avoid getting Fsmashed?

How do I edge-guard, damage, and kill Ike?

KirinBlaze · Mar 30, 2009

Blubba_Pinecone said:
Rule of thumb: Link's easiest match-up is Link, because it's 50:50. Keep that in mind.

The IC Boards, on AiB, have the Link match-up as 65:35 Link. lol

Anonano · Mar 30, 2009

Tektite said:
What ATs should I use on Ike?

How do I spam correctly against Ike?

Best and worst stages to pick against Ike?

How do I avoid getting Fsmashed?

How do I edge-guard, damage, and kill Ike?

Best AT's are AC'ing to stop Ike's approach or attacks, bombsliding for spacing, and zair edgehogs/galeguarding. I can also see the phantom boomerang being good for giving yourself some space if Ike is onstage while you have the ledge.

Maintain your spacing. Bombs will be good for bombsliding/JC bombthrows to maintain space. Use your boomerang to cut off avenues of approach diagonally. If Ike does get close to you while you are in the air spamming, arrow cancel and retreat, or zair. Be aware that Ike's fair beats all of Link's projectiles (including bombs) and is almost as long as zair.

Final Destination or Smashville as starters are the best, and as Counterpicks I would say stages such as Halberd that have a lot of horizontal space. Avoid clustered stages like Battlefield, or stages with low platforms like Yoshi's Island (Brawl).

I'd be more worried about ftilt, bair, jab combo, and fair. Ikes will use those waaay before they will use fsmash to boot you off the edge. Although fsmash is certainly still formidable; watch out for it when you are floating downwards towards Ike, particularly on the last stock of a match. They'll time it so that you will still be stuck in the landing animation when they hit you (assuming you airdodge).

Edgeguarding is fairly easy, although still a bit of a challenge. If you knock Ike up and sideways, toss your boomerang out for a galeguard to prevent his sideB (be aware he will probably not be recovering low enough for a traditional off-the-stage galeguard). If nothing else, jump out in front of his sideB to prevent him from reaching the stage. If he is recovering close to/below the stage, edgehog and zair edgeguard.
If you can't act in a timely manner, back off and prepare your spam game. Forget about edgeguarding Ike unless you are quite sure you'll make it in time.

Don't jab cancel, because Ike will retaliate with a Battle Walk, which racks up a lot of damage and is virtually inescapable. Use regular jab combos to knock him away and set up your spam game. Usmash works really well on racking up damage too, particularly at really low percents.
Because Ike will survive to ridiculous percentages, gimping will be your best bet at killing him. Fsmash, UpB and the second hit of fair will work well on getting him off the edge. Utilt can be a surpising kill move as well upwards of 150%.

*Random note: If Ike is silly enough to do his full jab combo while you are at low percents you can zair retaliate in his face, as well as autocancel your landing lag.

I'd call this match 55-45 Ike's favor.

SuSa · Mar 30, 2009

Blubba_Pinecone said:
Rule of thumb: Link's easiest match-up is Link, because it's 50:50. Keep that in mind.

Keep in mind, the better Link will win. (Or the one who doesn't trip twenty times a match). Because of this, it can be viewed as Link's hardest matchup. Since both players should be of equal skill, but one has to be better (otherwise neither would win) one would be just barely better - in which case this matchup just got harder for the weaker one.

I wouldn't count any ditto match as anyones easiest matchup. It's an uphill battle for one of the players, unless they win by pure luck - which I haven't seen yet.

3xSwords · Mar 30, 2009

Blubba_Pinecone said:
Hmm... nope. It's not. Watch the vids that Kirin mentioned, or perhaps try playing with a notable Ike player yourself. I would reccomend Renegade. I think Kirk only plays offline.

Rule of thumb: Link's easiest match-up is Link, because it's 50:50. Keep that in mind.

Just give me the link to the match I can't find it.

LuLLo · Apr 1, 2009

I play both characters, and my guess is that it's either 55:45 or 60:40 for Link.
The point is, Link doesn't have to approach Ike (Ike has to approach in ALL fights) and can keep Ike at a distance with 3 projectiles + his z-air. While Link is keeping Ike at bay, Ike takes lots of damage and has absolutely NO approach whatsoever. His fair is not safe on block (full jump fair with no lag is safe on block, but can easily be shielded/dodged). Ike has to bait an attack, which is very hard to do against Link, who doesn't have to do anything really and can dodge all his attacks easily. Ofcourse Ike can mindgame the Link player into mistakes, but we're talking about high levels of play here, Link has more options to stay at a distance, close-up from that distance and out of shield, the only area Ike has is his jabbing area and the air, which Link can avoid very easily with his projectile game and z-air spacing.

Next: the edge. Link imo also has the advantage here, Link can gimp Ike's recovery with ease, when Ike does his QD, just throw a bomb or shoot an arrow, Gale-edgeguard or use your z-air if he's close. When he goes for an Aether, which an Ike will ALWAYS go for directly under the edge or slightly from it, which you can see coming once he is at an angle 60 degrees with the edge (where the edge is 90). This can easily be d-aired, Gale-guard the Boomerang straight down or just throw a bomb down, which will set them up for aerials and more.

Now, that seemed like Link has total control over Ike, which isn't ofcourse, because once Ike DOES get in, which will happen more than Link's like it to be, Ike ***** Link close-up. Like many said, his Battle Walk will eat you alive and can get you off the edge very early. This situation gives much advantage to Ike, too, but is less of a problem for Link, since he can get Ike out of the way with his Boomerang and Bow. but once Ike hits, you're dead. He also can just hang on the edge, abuse invincibility frames to dodge projectiles and when you come close, Aetherspike you, in which case you're also dead.

Now, back on stage, Ike can punish almost everything you do due to his massive range. If Ike succeeds in baiting you correctly, you're in for a hard time, since with almost every attack he does, you're up in the air, where Ike easily beats you up.

Link's pros and cons against Ike:
Pros
- Projectile game hinders and damages very good.
- Speed, Link has the advantage in terms of lag.
- More techniques, has more opportunity to mindgame and land (semi)combo's.
- Gimps Ike with no trouble at all.
- Z-air to cover up middle range against Ike.

Cons
- Close-up Link hasn't got many plausible options, and the few options he has can be punished...hard.
- Gets gimped rather easily himself.
- Range, Link has got good range, but Ike beats him.
- Gets killed early, kills pretty late himself, relies on gimps to kill Ike early.

Stages:
Final Destination:
Link's best stage against Ike imo, Link's mobility get's a boost here and his projectiles are much more effective. Ike also has less control, since Ike's like small stages.

Battlefield:
Not pretty good, Ike has the advantage here, he abuses platforms like a madman and the small stage gives you little room for keeping your distance. Projectiles also get a nerf here, but your best bet are bombs, because they allow Link to get underneath Ike and abuse platforms, which you're not bad at. Consider banning.

Smashville:
An overall neutral stage for Link I'd say, the platform helps you escape from Ike's close-up game and can get you early kills (but Ike can also get some). Ike likes small stages, but you're more comfortable here than on Battlefield. Bombs are effective here, as wel as your Boomerang, but forget camping with it. Not a ban-worthy stage.

Yoshi's Island:
Small stage + platform abuse = control for Ike. The only advantages here are the Ghost, the wall at the ledge and your projectiles are pretty good. But the wall and Ghost also count for Ike. Other than that, no real advantage.

Norfair:
Gimme a break...Your recovery gets a boost here, but Ike doesn't care, since his recovery, kill power, mobility and punishing-ability get a boost. I'd say ban.

Frigate Orpheon:
Overall a bad stage for the both of you, Ike will not counterpick this stage, since his recovery sucks balls here. But imagine the Ike chooses this stage. You'll have a disadvantage here, small stage, easily knocked off, your recovery sucks too. But, like I said, not a stage Ike likes to fight on.

Delphino Plaza:
I don't have much experience on this stage, but it's a 5-5 between Link and Ike I think. When the stage goes flying, you're at a disadvantage, since it's a pretty small stage, but the parts where the stage goes on ground, you'll have an advantage, because the stage gets really big and an ideal place for Link to play around with his projectiles. Be carefull to not get knocked off early at the edge of the stage though.

Ray_Kalm · Apr 1, 2009

Blubba_Pinecone said:
Hmm... nope. It's not. Watch the vids that Kirin mentioned, or perhaps try playing with a notable Ike player yourself. I would reccomend Renegade. I think Kirk only plays offline.

Rule of thumb: Link's easiest match-up is Link, because it's 50:50. Keep that in mind.

No Blubba. Link is Link's second easiest match-up. You couldn't have forgotten about Ganon, which Link has 65:35 in his favor.

(No pun intended.)

Legan · Apr 2, 2009

LuLLo said:
Big long wall of Wrong.

Sorry you had to write all of that only to come to a completely wrong conclusion. Play a good ike, Ike wrecks link end of story. Ive played Renegade and Kirk. You guys are not thinking outside the box, your just saying zair & projectiles as if it is ever that simple. You guys dont even take into consideration techniques such as perfect shielding and shield dashing. Ill give a little more in depth reason as to why its 60:40 ike later.

Ice climbers boards on AIB saying that the matchup is in link favor just proves that AIB players know jack ****. Play against lain or ambrose or any half decent IC player to get some real insight.

LuLLo · Apr 2, 2009

Legan said:
Sorry you had to write all of that only to come to a completely wrong conclusion. Play a good ike, Ike wrecks link end of story. Ive played Renegade and Kirk. You guys are not thinking outside the box, your just saying zair & projectiles as if it is ever that simple. You guys dont even take into consideration techniques such as perfect shielding and shield dashing. Ill give a little more in depth reason as to why its 60:40 ike later.

Ice climbers boards on AIB saying that the matchup is in link favor just proves that AIB players know jack ****. Play against lain or ambrose or any half decent IC player to get some real insight.

Allrighty, I just wrote up my first match-up analysis ever, be gentle

. I thought it was a pretty decent write-up, but since you've played higher players (even offline I guess), I'll trust your judgement, I've only played a few good Ikes online, so yeah...
And yes, I'd gladly like to know why Ike wrecks Link, can't wait, because if (and probably it is) the match-up is 60-40ish for Ike, then the people I play with do something incredibly wrong (or just flat out suck).

Fate? · Apr 3, 2009

Ike quite frankly can destroy Link, walk off Fair or Dair even at low percents put Link in a bad position, anyone half decent at powersheilding wont have much to worry about your arrows/boomerang and even bombs, for the most part Ikes range>Links range. Also if Ike catches a bomb, he can DACUS with it and start jabbing or w/e incredibly fast, Ikes grabs are more reliable...For this match you have to be defensive, dont get jabbed or thrown off stage, and punish any poor spacing or badly timed moves, and if Ike approaches with a jump, then you can use your projectiles with more efficiancy. Its about 65:35 Ike Id say, 60:40 tops

Legan · Apr 3, 2009

LuLLo said:
Allrighty, I just wrote up my first match-up analysis ever, be gentle . I thought it was a pretty decent write-up, but since you've played higher players (even offline I guess), I'll trust your judgement, I've only played a few good Ikes online, so yeah...
And yes, I'd gladly like to know why Ike wrecks Link, can't wait, because if (and probably it is) the match-up is 60-40ish for Ike, then the people I play with do something incredibly wrong (or just flat out suck).

It was a good write up, I was just bein a jerk lol.
This isnt the best link but I can tell hes not very bad at all, the ike in the vid uses all the techs that any good ike will use to crush link. The link could have spammed more but even then the outcome would have been pretty much the same.
Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbiZm1NB3w&feature=channel_page

3xSwords · Apr 4, 2009

So the best way to get out of this combo is too press Zair when Ike's crouching. It will *hopefully* hit Ike before he jabs you. Pretty much that's the only thing you can do to stop his jabs > jabs combo. Grabing can also be a big treat to you. Ike's grab is fast and you pretty much only have one option to avoid some barrages of grabs. Holding a bomb as long as you can is the best option.

I'd like to question this part of the write up. Wouldn't the best way to get out of the jab combo be to learn to SDI the jabs away from Ike? Sure it's difficult and the jab is very fast making it harder to react too but Ike's jab cancels into jabs actually combo. This means that you won't have time to hit z before the next jab comes out, also wouldn't you be too close to the ground that you would land before the hitbox came out? Also I know jumping is another way people tend to get out of the jab cancels but this only really works if the Ike is jab canceling into something else other than a jab from past experiences.

There's also one thing you have forgotten. Ike's grab range is bad abuse it. If he does it out of jab cancel then it can't be helped. But if he's trying to shield grab, space so you don't get grabbed.

@Legan: Do you happen to know where I can see this vid of Kirk vs ArkiveZero? Apparently that would be a better vid then the one of Ryko.

Also how does an Ike get past the zair? Since Ike can only really approach from the ground since zair is a 2 hitter perfect shielding doesn't matter because he won't PS the second hit, he can't shield grab you b/c his grab range is bad, spot dodging at most just causes both of zair's hits to miss which isn't disadvantageous and rolling is just stupid.

LuLLo · Apr 4, 2009

It's cool

and I'll take a look, thanks.

Tektite · Apr 4, 2009

Alright so does anyone think we should move on to another character?

Legan · Apr 4, 2009

3xSwords said:
So the best way to get out of this combo is too press Zair when Ike's crouching. It will *hopefully* hit Ike before he jabs you. Pretty much that's the only thing you can do to stop his jabs > jabs combo. Grabing can also be a big treat to you. Ike's grab is fast and you pretty much only have one option to avoid some barrages of grabs. Holding a bomb as long as you can is the best option.

I'd like to question this part of the write up. Wouldn't the best way to get out of the jab combo be to learn to SDI the jabs away from Ike? Sure it's difficult and the jab is very fast making it harder to react too but Ike's jab cancels into jabs actually combo. This means that you won't have time to hit z before the next jab comes out, also wouldn't you be too close to the ground that you would land before the hitbox came out? Also I know jumping is another way people tend to get out of the jab cancels but this only really works if the Ike is jab canceling into something else other than a jab from past experiences.

There's also one thing you have forgotten. Ike's grab range is bad abuse it. If he does it out of jab cancel then it can't be helped. But if he's trying to shield grab, space so you don't get grabbed.

@Legan: Do you happen to know where I can see this vid of Kirk vs ArkiveZero? Apparently that would be a better vid then the one of Ryko.

Also how does an Ike get past the zair? Since Ike can only really approach from the ground since zair is a 2 hitter perfect shielding doesn't matter because he won't PS the second hit, he can't shield grab you b/c his grab range is bad, spot dodging at most just causes both of zair's hits to miss which isn't disadvantageous and rolling is just stupid.

There is no Arkive vs kirk vids, I dunno who made that one up.

Ike gets past zair by simply full hop fairing over it lol. The zair doesnt always 2 hit either, just shield dash powershield and triple A combo and its a done deal. You can always catch him early in the zairs early frames with a dash attack if you predict it.

3xSwords · Apr 4, 2009

Thanks for the tips and also Legan you commented in the video that the Link didn't fight the Ike properly. So what is the best way to fight Ike? If it is mostly camping then basically the measure of the Link's success is dependent upon the Ike's ability to perfect shield?

Rykoshet · Apr 5, 2009

<_< I do have matches against Jash's link which are far more close than my most recent link matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCwZaTMcRgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjwhGYjcfew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T46Ppw9O_K8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48NPtcANjoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRItGqWASmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GJUNDjitM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxISTpsyed8

I put up a large slew of them in december, my ike's picked up by then but all in all I still do the same stuff probably.

Also, I don't mean to be a ****, but neither ike in the midwest uses what I would call an almost surefire KO on link assuming you get past the gale boomerang. Walkoff dair spikes link out of both spin attack and his tether.

KirinBlaze · Apr 5, 2009

Rykoshet said:
Also, I don't mean to be a ****, but neither ike in the midwest uses what I would call an almost surefire KO on link assuming you get past the gale boomerang. Walkoff dair spikes link out of both spin attack and his tether.

Lol. No problem, most of us who use Link understand that he's a very bad character anyway.

I think we should move onto the next match-up. I feel like talking about this game since I can't play it. xD

Metro Knight · Apr 5, 2009

Well, Link probably has an advantage versus Samus, CF, Ganon... Xyro said that Link had the advantage in the match-up versus Samus. After seeing a few people play Jiggs, I want to say Link has the advantage against him, but I have also seen a lot of Jiggs abuse Link in platform stages. Who else might Link actually have an advantage against?

KirinBlaze · Apr 5, 2009

BOWSERRRRRR.

I used to play this match-up A LOT before Liquid_Gen got addicted to Halo Wars.

Bowser is a tough match up guys. You can't get close to him at all or he'll **** you with his amazing UpB OOS (His grounded UpB has invincibility on the start up.) or his grab release game, Grab>Ftilt can KO you if you don't see it coming and DI it wrong. All of his tilts and his jab are very fast and he has a reliable approach in Koopa Hopping that can destroy you if you can't counter it. He also has a fancy trick that involves Koopa Hopping that lets him continuously aerial attack which is amazing for his Fair. He's extremely difficult to edge guard. He also can do a lot of damage to you and killing him can be really difficult. Bowser has A LOT of KO potential that can even KO Link early, luckily most of them you can see coming, his Uair and Fsmash can be very deceiving in terms of hitbox and speed. Link cannot get close to Bowser since he plays an amazing defensive game and has the best UpB OOS in the game. The best Link can do is projectile camp and throw in smashes and jabs to get him away from you. He can also gimp you with his fire breath. lol

Bowser is a big target which makes projectile camping a little easier since he'll be taking hits from them a lot. Zair is amazing in this match-up and can really annoy Bowser to no end. Camp projectiles and force him too approach into a Zair or Reverse Pivot Boosted Fsmash. He, like I said before, is a little difficult to KO. Go for horizontal KO's.

60:40 Bowser.

3xSwords · Apr 7, 2009

I would agree with KirinBlaze. Bowser is just too good at defense with grab releases and upOoS, so approaching is not something you want to do if you know you'll make a spacing error. The thing that really holds Link back here imo is just the fact that he is so difficult to KO especially since Link won't be getting a gimp easily and his best kill move in his dair isn't as effective due to Bowser's heaviness. Aside from projectile camping juggling Bowser should be something you should try. Bombs defeat his down B and dair and his poor aerial mobility makes it difficult for him to try and escape to the ledge. Kirin covered most of it though.

60-40 Koopa King

chandy · Apr 7, 2009

Spamming is effective against Bowser. Try and hold a bomb a lot of time. If Bowser flying slams you a bomb could save you a lot of problems & they are effective as damaging. Be careful when trying to kill Bowser, you'll want to build him up to higher percentages than usual because of his heaviness. When you get up close to Bowser be afraid O.o you want to play very defensively when this happens. If he hits you with a smash attack you're going to get a lot of damage. Also his flying slam grabs through shields so watch out. Along with it's downsides Bowser's heaviness brings you advantages too. At low percentages you can land 2 or 3 up tilts in a row to really deal the damage. Trying to jab lock in this match up is easier than usual too because Bowser falls closer to you. Most of the time though, you should try and keep the range, using zairs, boomerangs and most importantly bombs. You may have trouble killing Bowser. He has good horizontal recovery but not vertical. Don't try and ledgeguard him when he's coming from the side but so when he's underneath the stage. If he comes from the side, use your clawshot, gale boomerang or bombs to try and deal more damage. Shield his smash attacks and perhaps follow with and out of shield grab. Grabs are slightly more effective in this match up than usual. Bowser's attacks have quite a bit of lag so punish them if you get the oppurtunity. If you get hit by a smash remember to DI as well as you can. His upB is quite beastly too so roll from it or if above make sure you dair him and don't miss

All together I don't think this is one of Link's harder match-ups. You'll find it easy to deal damage but hard to kill. If you keep him at range mostly then you'll be able to win. Dodge or shield his attacks but beware of the flying slam O.o.

55-45 in Bowser's favour or 50-50.

3xSwords · Apr 7, 2009

chandy said:
Spamming is effective against Bowser. Try and hold a bomb a lot of time. If Bowser flying slams you a bomb could save you a lot of problems & they are effective as damaging. Be careful when trying to kill Bowser, you'll want to build him up to higher percentages than usual because of his heaviness. When you get up close to Bowser be afraid O.o you want to play very defensively when this happens. If he hits you with a smash attack you're going to get a lot of damage. Also his flying slam grabs through shields so watch out. Along with it's downsides Bowser's heaviness brings you advantages too. At low percentages you can land 2 or 3 up tilts in a row to really deal the damage. Trying to jab lock in this match up is easier than usual too because Bowser falls closer to you. Most of the time though, you should try and keep the range, using zairs, boomerangs and most importantly bombs. You may have trouble killing Bowser. He has good horizontal recovery but not vertical. Don't try and ledgeguard him when he's coming from the side but so when he's underneath the stage. If he comes from the side, use your clawshot, gale boomerang or bombs to try and deal more damage. Shield his smash attacks and perhaps follow with and out of shield grab. Grabs are slightly more effective in this match up than usual. Bowser's attacks have quite a bit of lag so punish them if you get the oppurtunity. If you get hit by a smash remember to DI as well as you can. His upB is quite beastly too so roll from it or if above make sure you dair him and don't miss

All together I don't think this is one of Link's harder match-ups. You'll find it easy to deal damage but hard to kill. If you keep him at range mostly then you'll be able to win. Dodge or shield his attacks but beware of the flying slam O.o.

55-45 in Bowser's favour or 50-50.

In your analysis it seems as though Bowser smashes a lot. But in reality they don't, and when they do you should definitely be punishing with shield grab as you said. Bowser's size has it down sides but I don't see Link being able to take advantage of it due to the fact that Link won't be approaching and attempting to combo. Also saying this is one of Link's harder matchups and saying that it may be 50-50 is not true. I still stick with 60-40 Bowser.

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