Dealing with Wario's weaknesses Current Discussion :Range Problems D:

SSJ5Goku8932 · Mar 31, 2009

NOW on to the important stuff, here we discuss on how to deal with weaknesses of a character.

After we are done, you can suggest a topic to continue.

Past Discussions

Grab Releases

KrazyGlue said:
Just try not to get grabbed and aircamp for most of the match. Wario's aerial moves seem almost like they were made specifically to serve that purpose. Nair, Dair, and Fair all give good priority and spacing skills. I'm not sure how good Bair is for spacing though. Chomp is also somewhat effective to scare people off.

_Phloat_ said:
Anyways. To deal with grab releases, just know what will happen in each matchup and how survive it best. While getting grabbed at 180% is death against Snake, getting grabbed at 100% should not be. DI well, even SDI the initial hit; as you get a fair amount of warning while Wario hovers back into their range like a moron.

Avoid being grabbed, obviously. LEARN TO SMASH DI OUT OF SNAKES NAIR AND PUNISH. I cringe when I see that actually work on local warios.

Basically

MrEh said:
Don't get grabbed. lol

DISJOINTED HITBOXES

Gichan said:
Some examples

Snake's ftilt
" utilt
Kirby's bair
Sonic's usmash
" side b moves (? I feel this one is)
Iceclimbers uair
Dedede's bair
Samus' dair
" fair
Metaknigt's dsma-- **** it all his moves, lawlz
Olimar's fair, bair, smashes
ROB's f-and-dsmashes, and nair
Peach's dsmash, fair, dair
Ganondorf Dair, Utilt, and Dtilt.
Mario Upsmash, Utilt. Down-B.

Now for range problems; Wario does not have good horizontal aerial range, that is the fundamental weakness of his approach game. but if one thinks of it, he has good ground range with a dtilt that can beat out MK's dtilt, and a beastly ftilt. It may not be the best range, but it's pretty decent when one needs to mix in a playstyle. I also forgot to mention jab. But these ground moves are relatively slow in either start or finish, which is a slight problem, as dtilt may be punished with something if it does not connect.

But what to do with these moves against someone who still outranges these moves? Bairs, I find are surprisingly good for spacing against Marths, or even MKs. It has some pretty good range due to Wario's movement (but due to his movement in the air, not because of the move itself). One can consider airdodging into these characters but they know they are leaving you open with that option. What I find the solution has to be, is to frustrate them with something that is suppose to bother us and make it seem like it doesn't work, then them to fight our ground range and hit some. The character will then feel that the matchup isn't in their favour. Let's say we are playing a Marth, I think I recall someone saying that if the Marth does not space the second fair properly, a Wario can fair before the second one. This will make the Marth feel he is losing that option. then we can force the jab to grab, dtilt to fair, etc.

So our answer lies in mindgames against these characters. to make their moves feel useless. But what of a situation where you can't do that...dashing powershield grabs? Then attempt to throw them off stage to commence the ****, unless the char is ****ing MK.

brinboy789 · Mar 31, 2009

range, grab releases, marth

BentoBox · Mar 31, 2009

If wario had any more range he'd be borderline OP. Range really isn't a weakness given his air control.

MrEh · Mar 31, 2009

Don't get grabbed. lol

KrazyGlue · Mar 31, 2009

Just try not to get grabbed and aircamp for most of the match. Wario's aerial moves seem almost like they were made specifically to serve that purpose. Nair, Dair, and Fair all give good priority and spacing skills. I'm not sure how good Bair is for spacing though. Chomp is also somewhat effective to scare people off.

PhantomX · Apr 1, 2009

Know when certain characters can kill you and when, and keep in mind that they will likely change their priority to grabbing you, so you can capitalize on and often punish that.

Gichan · Apr 1, 2009

the thing is, something could possible be discussed here. Like how to approach a DDD. I mean, what moves does one wait for the punish the DDD, and is it a bad thing to go for the dair beside them cause they always seem to be grabbing me (am I just doing it to far?), Should one go for a gimp? When is the best time to use the fart on them, only offstage or are there opportunities onstage?

We should ask questions like this for the characters that pwn Wario. Because how does one really avoid getting grabbed by DDD? Like if the questions above are answered it helps to find a way around the grabs.

_Phloat_ · Apr 1, 2009

Gichan said:
the thing is, something could possible be discussed here. Like how to approach a DDD. I mean, what moves does one wait for the punish the DDD, and is it a bad thing to go for the dair beside them cause they always seem to be grabbing me (am I just doing it to far?), Should one go for a gimp? When is the best time to use the fart on them, only offstage or are there opportunities onstage?

We should ask questions like this for the characters that pwn Wario. Because how does one really avoid getting grabbed by DDD? Like if the questions above are answered it helps to find a way around the grabs.

Approach DeDeDe? Why? I prefer to chuck tires at him the whole game, lol. Aircamp.

No one pwns Wario, marth is the closest. And not getting grabbed by DeDeDe is all about the camping.

Anyways. To deal with grab releases, just know what will happen in each matchup and how survive it best. While getting grabbed at 180% is death against Snake, getting grabbed at 100% should not be. DI well, even SDI the initial hit; as you get a fair amount of warning while Wario hovers back into their range like a moron.

Avoid being grabbed, obviously. LEARN TO SMASH DI OUT OF SNAKES NAIR AND PUNISH. I cringe when I see that actually work on local warios.

Gichan · Apr 1, 2009

Snake's nair doesn't work on me anymore, but I do have a problem with, let's say, the utilt that always kills me at 120% although I hear people survive that ****. And I guess DDD is all about camping that *****, i got it

PhantomX · Apr 1, 2009

You can survive Snake's grab release uptilt to around 130 - 140 with good DI if it's fresh and out of a grab release, b/c you'll be expecting it.

Gichan · Apr 1, 2009

But then...how? I input my control stick and c-stick to the left, how does this not work then?

stnapknah · Apr 1, 2009

you don't just hold the c stick left, you must flick it so that it goes back to neutral position, or you're not SDIing properly/at all. In addition, it helps to fast fall, so either flick your c-stick downish a little so you auto fast fall dair, OR tap your joy stick down... not sure which one is better.

_Phloat_ · Apr 1, 2009

And go the direction Snake is facing, not always left...

Kit Cal-N · Apr 1, 2009

stnapknah said:
you don't just hold the c stick left, you must flick it so that it goes back to neutral position, or you're not SDIing properly/at all. In addition, it helps to fast fall, so either flick your c-stick downish a little so you auto fast fall dair, OR tap your joy stick down... not sure which one is better.

Flick your analog stick perpendicular to the direction the hit would send you (directly left or right in the case of the u-tilt), and mash the opposite direction of the hit on the c-stick.
After the hit, hold the the direction on the analog stick, and mash down on the c-stick.
The analog stick will change trajectory and let you DI properly, and the c-stick will auto-fast fall a dair for momentum canceling.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 5, 2009

Well, thats pretty much the topic there.

I will change it to People with large Disjointed hitboxes.

chimpact · Apr 5, 2009

Brown Paper Sack said:
Flick your analog stick perpendicular to the direction the hit would send you (directly left or right in the case of the u-tilt), and mash the opposite direction of the hit on the c-stick.
After the hit, hold the the direction on the analog stick, and mash down on the c-stick.
The analog stick will change trajectory and let you DI properly, and the c-stick will auto-fast fall a dair for momentum canceling.

Dair is his fastest aerial?

PhantomX · Apr 5, 2009

Fair and dair end the fastest.

Gichan · Apr 6, 2009

Thanks for the advice on DIing, geat **** homies.

As for disjointed hitboxes.....shielding a lot? I don't know what to say really. I say never get too impatient after ebing hit with one of these attacks as it seems we can hit them, but we really can't and will get owned. I say move away and find another opening.

C.box · Apr 6, 2009

Gichan said:
Thanks for the advice on DIing, geat **** homies.

As for disjointed hitboxes.....shielding a lot? I don't know what to say really. I say never get too impatient after ebing hit with one of these attacks as it seems we can hit them, but we really can't and will get owned. I say move away and find another opening.

Shield = ground, being grounded = getting grabbed, grabbed = Grab release shenanigans (Not saying you will get grabbed all the time your on the ground but warios SHOULD stay airbourne as much as they can.) Stay out of their disjointed range while airdodging and moving back and forth until you find an opening. Marth's aerials wall wario so well... oh well I only second wario and main marth :D.

Gichan · Apr 8, 2009

C.box said:
Shield = ground, being grounded = getting grabbed, grabbed = Grab release shenanigans (Not saying you will get grabbed all the time your on the ground but warios SHOULD stay airbourne as much as they can.) Stay out of their disjointed range while airdodging and moving back and forth until you find an opening. Marth's aerials wall wario so well... oh well I only second wario and main marth :D.

Too true. I failed at realizing that one can get mind****ed by shielding disjointed hitboxes. Does Marth have disjointed hitboxes? It seems to me it is just ridiculous range. Who else besides Snake, Sonic, and Olimar have disjoitned hitboxes? I can't recall them right now.

smashkng · Apr 8, 2009

What's a disjointed hitbox? Is it a hitbox that is invincible?

:mad: · Apr 8, 2009

Gichan said:
Too true. I failed at realizing that one can get mind****ed by shielding disjointed hitboxes. Does Marth have disjointed hitboxes? It seems to me it is just ridiculous range. Who else besides Snake, Sonic, and Olimar have disjoitned hitboxes? I can't recall them right now.

Lucas. Lucas. Lucasssss. :lick:

Nearly everything short of his tilts.

Also, Ness, Dedede, and Mario.

Mister E · Apr 8, 2009

Gichan said:
Too true. I failed at realizing that one can get mind****ed by shielding disjointed hitboxes. Does Marth have disjointed hitboxes? It seems to me it is just ridiculous range. Who else besides Snake, Sonic, and Olimar have disjoitned hitboxes? I can't recall them right now.

Jigglypuff is the king of disjointed hitboxes

(Almost all her moves)

Timbers · Apr 8, 2009

smashkng said:
What's a disjointed hitbox? Is it a hitbox that is invincible?

It's a hitbox that branches from the character's hurtbox. Most moves in the game has a character extend their hurtbox into the move they're using. It helps keep character diversion existant while still having the nature of realism. For disjointed, Think of Marth's sword, or Snake's tilts, or something. Most moves technically have a disjointed nature to them TO A SMALL EXTENT, but generally speaking disjointed=a move safe enough to use with little risk of putting your own hurtbox in danger. Characters with short range (Wario) tend to have no disjointed hitboxes, whereas characters with longer reach do have disjointed properties (the obvious exclusion being DK)

Mister E said:
Jigglypuff is the king of disjointed hitboxes (Almost all her moves)

what

Red Arremer · Apr 8, 2009

Timbers said:
It's a hitbox that branches from the character's hurtbox. Think of Marth's sword, or Snake's tilts, or something. Most moves technically have a disjointed nature to them TO A SMALL EXTENT, but generally speaking disjointed=a move safe enough to use with little risk of putting your own hurtbox in danger. Characters with short range (Wario) tend to have no disjointed hitboxes and generally have a hard time dealing with characters that do have this character perk (Marth, Snake, MK, GaW if every one of his moves wasn't so easy to SDI)

Actually... No, Snake's tilts aren't disjointed. <_< They have insane priority, but aren't disjointed. Disjointed hitboxes are hitboxes that aren't connected to the actual body of the character using the attack. That involves weapons, but also summoned stuff like Lucario's Aura hitboxes or Olimar's moves using Pikmin to attack (aside from the Side B).

:mad: · Apr 8, 2009

Timbuhhhhzzzz said:
what

I think I know what they're talking about. Pound, Dair, Uair, Fair, and uhh... Utilt? I dunno, the Jigglypuffs had a thread awhile back about her attack range, and it got mixed into this giant guide. The mods think it'd be best if they merge threads. Which sucks.

@Spadefox - LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOL. Look at Utilt. And the second hit of Ftilt. Timbers is on the right track.

MrEh · Apr 8, 2009

Timbers said:
what

I think he was joking.

The only attack that Jiggs has with notable disjoint is her Utilt and Sing. lolololol

:mad: · Apr 8, 2009

I also like the irony of that. You called Jigglypuff a king, then said "her moves".

Also, thanks for correcting that, MrEh.

Atria · Apr 8, 2009

Timbers said:
It's a hitbox that branches from the character's hurtbox. Most moves in the game has a character extend their hurtbox into the move they're using. It helps keep character diversion existant while still having the nature of realism. For disjointed, Think of Marth's sword, or Snake's tilts, or something. Most moves technically have a disjointed nature to them TO A SMALL EXTENT, but generally speaking disjointed=a move safe enough to use with little risk of putting your own hurtbox in danger. Characters with short range (Wario) tend to have no disjointed hitboxes, whereas characters with longer reach do have disjointed properties (the obvious exclusion being DK)

Spadefox said:
Actually... No, Snake's tilts aren't disjointed. <_< They have insane priority, but aren't disjointed. Disjointed hitboxes are hitboxes that aren't connected to the actual body of the character using the attack. That involves weapons, but also summoned stuff like Lucario's Aura hitboxes or Olimar's moves using Pikmin to attack (aside from the Side B).

Just to add on to these quotes, consider the situation where Lucas uses his PK fire. (>B) If Mario were to punch it, he'd get hurt because the his arm doesn't extend outside his collision bubble. (Parts where a damaging hitbox (An attack or projectile for example.) can hurt a character. In other words, their body.) However, if Marth used his FSmash on it, he wouldn't get hurt because the hitbox extends outside his collision bubble/body. That is what a disjointed hitbox is. Normally characters who wield weapons like swords and hammers for example possess this.

Timbers · Apr 8, 2009

Spadefox said:
Actually... No, Snake's tilts aren't disjointed. <_< They have insane priority, but aren't disjointed. Disjointed hitboxes are hitboxes that aren't connected to the actual body of the character using the attack. That involves weapons, but also summoned stuff like Lucario's Aura hitboxes or Olimar's moves using Pikmin to attack (aside from the Side B).

Snake's ftilt and utilt are one of the most disjointed attacks in the game. Just because there isn't an animation present to help describe it (i.e. a sword or aura) doesn't discredit it in the slightest.

Red Arremer · Apr 8, 2009

Ah, so Snake obviously has a leg (and crotch) of metal! I see... Snake's tilts really are too good for this game.

Generally, though, you can make disjointed hitboxes out by extensions on the body of the character, while joint hitboxes are part of the character themselves.

Gichan · Apr 9, 2009

Snake's ***** is just censored because of the rating, so it really isn't a disjointed hitbox.

Browny · Apr 9, 2009

on that note... Dont assume that disjointed hitboxes only involve invisible hitboxes or swords. consider attacks like kirbys bair. His feet are invincible. to anyone observing the attack, it doesnt look disjointed at all. there are quite a few attacks in the game which have this property (peach/sonic uair, kirby/DDD bair for example) and they dont look disjointed at all, but rest assured you will not beat these attacks out unless you have a massive disjoint yourself.

also, more lol snake utilt pics

Atria · Apr 9, 2009

djbrowny said:
on that note... Dont assume that disjointed hitboxes only involve invisible hitboxes or swords. consider attacks like kirbys bair. His feet are invincible. to anyone observing the attack, it doesnt look disjointed at all. there are quite a few attacks in the game which have this property (peach/sonic uair, kirby/DDD bair for example) and they dont look disjointed at all, but rest assured you will not beat these attacks out unless you have a massive disjoint yourself.

No, mainly characters who wield weapons (Either a sword or a hammer.) and characters who have moves that possess phantom hitboxes like Snake's U-tilt for example have disjointed hitboxes with their attacks. Kirby's Bair and those other characters you mentioned doesn't have a massive amount of disjoint to them at all. However, they have a large amount of priority to them.

Priority is the ability to trump another attack if your's and your opponent's attack collide with each other. For example, if 2 Mario's jab at the same time, the attacks cancel each other out because they have similar priority to each other. Another example is where some characters use their jab to cancel certain projectiles. Like jabs, some projectile like Lucario's BAS and Pikachu's Thunder Jolt have low priority so when a jab and low priority to them. So when the projectile collides with a character's jab, they cancel each other out.

So technically, the only thing that can override moves like Kirby's Bair for example, is if you use a move which has a bigger priority than the Bair.

Browny · Apr 9, 2009

ugh i cant be bothered explaining it...

simply, priority does not have a value assigned to it. moves with high 'priority' are attacks with very long range, high damage or invincibility. I swear n-airs are the only exception though >_>

PhantomX · Apr 9, 2009

Air moves depends on speed and range, ground moves have priority over each other.

:mad: · Apr 9, 2009

I love this thread. Apparently, "We first must discover disjointed hitboxes before we can overcome them."

There hasn't been much talk on actual disjoints, just the definiton.

Timbers · Apr 9, 2009

djbrowny said:
simply, priority does not have a value assigned to it. moves with high 'priority' are attacks with very long range, high damage or invincibility. I swear n-airs are the only exception though >_>

Aerial to aerial, there is no priority. In regards to outprioritizing projectiles or some specials, then yes there is a determining factor in priority in aerials.

Gichan · Apr 9, 2009

LOLOLL, cause man, it's like philosophy, you do not debate something until clear definitions are given so to attempt a prevention of unnecessary arguments.

Plus it helps nubs like me know the definition. Either way, Wario has trouble with ranged aerials, Marth's fairs, kirby's ridunkulous bairs, some others. As for most disjointed hitboxes, one should just try to remember what moves are disjointed, this way one is not surprised and will know how to deal with it.

But then again, before we can do this, we need to come to a definite conclusion about disjointed hitboxes, which are.....moves with invisible hitboxes? Or a lot of priority? lolol

But after the definition is come to, it'll be a good thing if we all help with finding most, if not all, disjointed hitbox moves to better the knowledge of all Wario mains, so that we don't come across it unexpectantly.

YagamiDark · Apr 9, 2009

Well there's always a common misconception on the term "disjointed". Disjointedness refers to the distance from the farthest hitbox to the hurtbox. In this sense, all attacks are disjointed. It's measured as HOW disjointed it is, not whether it is or isn't. Attacks like Snakes Utilt are extremely disjointed, while moves like... Wario's Dtilt are much less disjointed.

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