Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

Canvasofgrey · May 25, 2009

Charizard in my opinion is probably the worst pokemon as a start since Jigglypuff can basically dance in the air around all of Charizard's attacks. Charizard is a bit too slow in reaction to Jigglypuff's air mobility.

Lol, Mr. Eh.

Bomber7 · May 25, 2009

Well, imo, this is just basically fighting Kirby, what ever choice we have for Jiggz would in turn be the same for Kirby. They have the same physique and play style differs some but more or less are the same when it comes to fighting in the air.

MaTA · May 25, 2009

Charizard is probably the worst do to the fact that once he gets the damaged racked up on him all jiggly has to do is float above him a quick down A into rest.... Ivy is really good with back airs and keeping her back while squirtle puts up a good fight once you start combo'n her plus down throw will destroy her really fast.

Ryusuta · May 25, 2009

Bomber7 said:
Well, imo, this is just basically fighting Kirby, what ever choice we have for Jiggz would in turn be the same for Kirby. They have the same physique and play style differs some but more or less are the same when it comes to fighting in the air.

Jigglypuff is a LOT different than Kirby. Kirby as tilt locks, a projectile, and quicker, more powerful KO moves, while Jigglypuff and an amazing sliding dash grab, DACUS, fantastic disjointed hitbox (Pound), and better air speed.

Bomber7 · May 25, 2009

Ok, I was wrong on that statement. Even so, the fact that Kirby and Jiggly are floaty and pretty much control the sky, it's safe to say that Charizard is not the best option, unless you can make Charizard as mobile as squirtle.

Ryusuta · May 25, 2009

True enough.

Bomber7 · May 25, 2009

I overall think that this discussion is over.

Squirtle can go toe to toe with Jiggly and go a good job of getting what you need, then you can switch to Ivy for the kill possibly.

Ivy is great because he is an anti aerial artillery gun just waiting to blow Jiggz out the sky plus Ivy is quite mobile and doesn't have as much of an issue with movement as Charizard does. Ivy has spacing capabilities with razor leaf and tilts plus Jiggz is at a disadvantage from her floatiness.

Ryusuta · May 25, 2009

And Ivysaur is also a major threat to kill Jiggs early (especially on platform stages like Battlefield).

Bomber7 · May 25, 2009

Can Ivy get an early kill on Jiggz?

Ryusuta · May 25, 2009

Up air works well on platform stages. Less so on Final Destination-like stages.

PkTrainerCris · May 25, 2009

Bullet seed is not bad against jigs, she risks her body on all her attacks, so bullet seed counters are pretty good, it wont rack up too much damage, but it can be frustrating to the jigglypuff player, the only move i cant think can beat BS is pound, but im not sure (and maybe rollout, but that sucks)

Bomber7 · May 26, 2009

I don't doubt that BS could beat roll out, there are invinci frames, but there is an easier way to take out roll out and that is with razor leaf. My friend sometimes plays jiggz for fun and he's fully charged a roll out against my Ivy and I simply just sent a razor leaf and hit him and it canceled out the roll out. BS, you would have to time it just right and that's not to say if you might get some knock back as well as damage which may be too much of a risk.

Ryusuta · May 26, 2009

Rollout doesn't have invincibility frames; just high priority ones. It's conceivable (but not practical) to BS her out of it. You'd be much better off shield-grabbing it, though.

Bomber7 · May 26, 2009

I find it easier to Razor leaf it, BS imo is too risky. but I guess shield grabbing is fine too. I'll make a summary before I go to bed tonight. By tomorrow will have the next discussion up.

Bomber7 · May 27, 2009

Character Discussion: KING DEDEDE

Ok, so, any thoughts on this one? We only have squirtle.

From my experience with a D3 I would say Squirtle is the best, he is nimble and fast and can take on D3 however my only problem is that he can be killed off early. It's like fighting a floaty Ike, but in a Santa outfit, that throws little waddle dees and doos and gordos.

Next I would say Ivy has some potential here with razorleaf however I could be wrong because of the waddles and gordos.

Charizard maybe, rock smash and flamethrower can be a deadly weapon plus a well placed Fair not to mention since D3 is floaty, that Fair, if placed right will knock him back pretty far and possibly kill him.

Maybe for D3 is would just be best to start with Squirtle to weaken him, then knock him away, then switch, then finish with Ivy, then weaken him more, then space, then switch to Charizard to finish. Then when charizard gets KO'd you start all over again. I know it looks a bit complicated but seeing as all you have to do if weaken D3 to a suffice %, it shouldn't be that hard. Though over all my concern is a CG he has on us.

These are my thoughts for now.

T-block · May 27, 2009

I think Squirtle/Ivysaur here. Squirtle, for one, can't be chain grabbed, which is a big plus for starting against D3, and the waddles don't bother Squirtle that much. Water Gun is also nice in this matchup with D3's poor air mobility. D3 also falls fast, making u-tilt locks really painful. On the other hand, D3's b-air and u-tilt can really hurt Squirtle... it's kind of like the Ike situation - risky to start Squirtle, but in this case the other two also have their issues.

D3 can chain grab -> f-tilt to get Ivysaur off the edge if he gets a grab off, but I think Bullet Seed makes an Ivysaur start worth it. It punishes the hell out of missed grabs. I think I'd watch the stage for this one. I'd definitely go Ivysaur on something like Norfair, but Squirtle for something like FD.

shinyspoon42 · May 29, 2009

Razor leaf goes through the waddle dees fyi, so that doesn't stop razor leaf spam. D3 is another heavy, and Ivy has great multi-hitting attacks for heavys, like f-tilt, nair, or BS. D3 can chaingrab Ivy though, so there is a definite risk in this match using ivy. Unfortunately, squirtle is equally at risk due to the fact that he is so light. Charizard however has a worse time then either squirtle or ivy, so save him till your heavily damaged. This matchup is probably best with ivy, because better spacing and damage racking tools in this matchup than squirtle, and ivy is less likely to get KOed. D3 is a huge target, so let loose with the razor leafs.

shinyspoon42 · May 29, 2009

So far it is good to start with squirtle in eight different matchups, ivysaur in nine, and charizard in seven. This is out of the eleven discussed so far.

8/11

9/11

7/11

Kage Me · May 29, 2009

shinyspoon42 said:
Razor leaf goes through the waddle dees fyi

This is true. Only Gordos go through Razor Leaf IIRC, and those are rare enough to be considered insignificant.

I'm honestly not sure who to pick against Dedede. Ivysaur and Squirtle are definitely options, but I can't say for sure who's your best pick. I don't think it matters much, actually.

Popertop · May 29, 2009

just go with whoever doesn't get chaingrabbed, I guess Squirtle in this case, and just kite him.
(by kite I mean aircamp and run circles around him)

and whoever was talking about countering Rollout, you can pivot grab it with Ivy, just run away and if he doesn't do it throw a Razor Leaf forward, then run back again and if he doesn't, just repeat.
if there are plats just jump onto the plat.

Bomber7 · May 29, 2009

Kage Me said:
This is true. Only Gordos go through Razor Leaf IIRC, and those are rare enough to be considered insignificant.

I'm honestly not sure who to pick against Dedede. Ivysaur and Squirtle are definitely options, but I can't say for sure who's your best pick. I don't think it matters much, actually.

This is the match up that stumps me too. I overall, when I think of starting, is finding someone who can rack up damage for me quite well, then I can decide to do whatever I want, but primarily, I want to be in that range of % that I want them to be in. Imo all 3 can do that quite well. However especially with D3 we have to take into account the CG and some other effects like that too.

Bomber7 · May 31, 2009

After last night's tournament I am really advocating that Ivysaur be one of the best starters against D3. I had a D3 player in my pool, he was pretty good. He gave my squirtle some problems but when Ivysaur came out, it was a different story, somehow I actually began to space well with razorleaf and bairs and the occasional nair. It was a work of beauty. Charizard didn't do me much justice. Considering I have little D3 exp I am still unsure about Squirtle. Sure he is fast and all, but I went as hyper squirtle on him and I got shield grabbed alot. I know Squirtle can't be CG'd but overall from my performance with Squirtle, I don't really think is is one of the best. He is an option however the only reason I think Squirtle would remain a recommended choice and not an option is the uncertainty that Ivysaur to do all the work alone.

T-block · May 31, 2009

Let's go with Ivy then, and we can keep Squirtle as a start in case they CP Frigate or something lol

I was thinking maybe we could start giving the best choice for a starter along with possible alternatives. So instead of saying Squirt/Ivy start here, we say Ivy is the best and Squirtle is a possibility. Then people could turn to the alternative if the stage doesn't favour the best choice, or if they're not comfortable with the best choice. This way we can take into account that all three might be viable starts, but one or two may be better choice than the other.

Zigsta · May 31, 2009

I actually disagree with you on this, Bomber. I wrecked PKFire yesterday with Squirtle--if I could go all Squirtle, I would either get a 2- or 3-stock. Charizard did the second best with Ivysaur being a close third. With Squirtle, D3 can't perform his chaingrab, and you're a small target to hit. And while it is true that D3 can shieldgrab Squirtle's approach, you just have to be able to predict a shield from D3 and then grab him instead. Aerial approaches work well on D3, especially if you can goad him into using dtilt or ftilt to attempt to stop you mid-shellshift. Just don't be predictable, or else you'll get shieldgrabbed. I hydrograbbed PKFire's D3 a lot and just focused on remaining unpredictable and quick by constantly shellshifting.

TheReflexWonder · May 31, 2009

It's an interesting matchup. I play my older brother in it every single day.

Bomber7 · May 31, 2009

Zigsta said:
I actually disagree with you on this, Bomber. I wrecked PKFire yesterday with Squirtle--if I could go all Squirtle, I would either get a 2- or 3-stock. Charizard did the second best with Ivysaur being a close third. With Squirtle, D3 can't perform his chaingrab, and you're a small target to hit. And while it is true that D3 can shieldgrab Squirtle's approach, you just have to be able to predict a shield from D3 and then grab him instead. Aerial approaches work well on D3, especially if you can goad him into using dtilt or ftilt to attempt to stop you mid-shellshift. Just don't be predictable, or else you'll get shieldgrabbed. I hydrograbbed PKFire's D3 a lot and just focused on remaining unpredictable and quick by constantly shellshifting.

It could just be me, my squirtle wasn't doing too great 100% of the time at LasT 3. I watched Reflex go against Sudai and I was observing his squirtle, and comparing every single movement to what I would do or would have done. He makes with look so easy. for some reason, if it were me, I would have been shield grabbed. I think I know what my problem is, I'm too reckless with my approaching, imo with all 3, however since I start with squirtle, he is my main concern right now. I'm still trying to figure a way how I can make a good aggressive approach where it won't be countered easily like that. Another thing I have been trying to work on is not to use an aerial by squirtle like Fair -> fast fall if I am out of range to where I will end up short by a hair. If I can't land the hit, then I wont go for the move, I'll get in range and use it if I am able to. that's just one thing I am working on. ^^' Between you, reflex and I, I think I'm the worst. It's like there is something I still don't get, I know there is only so much people can tell me, but in reality, I will have to analyze my own mistakes like my approaching problem and find a way to fix it as best I can. what's funny is after the match with Sudai, Sudai turned to me because I was REALLY focused on their match, and asked, "You take mental notes?" and I replied, "You read my mind Sudai so well." I have played his ROB as PT, I didn't win and though over all I am somewhat proud of my performance against him as compared to my TL where I got 2 stocks off of him by luck, then 3 stocked. With PT when I got 1 or 2 stocked, it was legit, pure skill. no luck. I'm still for Squirtle, but I just want to throw a strong support for Ivysaur as well.

Steeler · Jun 1, 2009

squirtle does the best against dedede

dedede has a guaranteed dtilt out of chaingrab on charizard (not that big of a deal, kills at like 160%) and IVYSAUR

that is very bad

don't start ivy

technically ivy camp is better than dedede's but

1. dedede can easily walk/dash at you PSing the leaves or just ftilting until its in range.

2. you always have stamina on your ***...which is important in this matchup because dedede is a fatass and you want charizard in late to get the easier KO.

Ryusuta · Jun 1, 2009

I agree with Steeler. An early CG to forward tilt followed by edge guarding means huge trouble for Ivy. It's just too big pf a risk that early on.

Bomber7 · Jun 1, 2009

I guess so. Ivy can be CG's and then pursued just as easily and the there is no recovery, I guess htere is too much risk in that.

T-block · Jun 3, 2009

Fair enough...I can see that. Squirtle start then, switch to Ivy at higher percents, DI the f-tilt up and hope you can get past the b-air/f-air edgeguard.

Steeler · Jun 3, 2009

you guys don't understand. not only does he have the vanilla guaranteed ftilt

but he has guaranteed DTILT

ie get grabbed about about 130ish and you probably die from chaingrab/pummel damage + dtilt

Bomber7 · Jun 3, 2009

Steeler said:
you guys don't understand. not only does he have the vanilla guaranteed ftilt

but he has guaranteed DTILT

ie get grabbed about about 130ish and you probably die from chaingrab/pummel damage + dtilt

So are we to stock tank with squirtle? Almost seems like it. You do put up a good point, at any % Ivy is going to be screwed over, Charizard probably too. So what necessarily can be done to make squirtle a good starter and follow up with a good strategy to help fight D3? Unless, you know, it's start with squirtle and switch at your own risk.

T-block · Jun 3, 2009

When I said switch to Ivy at higher percents, I meant it partly for gimp protection, partly as a sac. Either way, since we've agreed on starting Squirtle, we should be switching to Ivy at higher percents anyways. We don't want Ivy in at 0, and you can try predicting the grab and getting a Bullet Seed in there. Fatigue isn't as much of a factor then.

Squirtle > Ivy first stock, Charizard second stock, finish with Squirtle seems like a good order to me.

Bomber7 · Jun 5, 2009

I'm going out of town for the weekend. When I come back Monday, I'll get to a summary. Looks like we are keeping just squirtle to start. Sounds good

Steeler · Jun 5, 2009

do the 2.5 squirtle stocks thing

Bomber7 · Jun 6, 2009

Steeler said:
do the 2.5 squirtle stocks thing

What do you mean by that?

Steeler · Jun 6, 2009

switching your order so that squirtle is out there on the majority of all 3 stocks

Bomber7 · Jun 8, 2009

Oh, I think I get what you mean.

Popertop · Jun 8, 2009

did someone seriously say the wrecked Pkfire and used that as something for their argument?

Pkfire is terrible

Bomber7 · Jun 8, 2009

Character Discussion: KIRBY

Next up is the cute little pink blob who eat everything in sight.

recommended choices: Squirtle and Ivy

Agree, disagree, thoughts?

Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

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