As stated, squirtle is the obvious choice, his speed and size make it very difficult to camp him with our projectiles and his air game rivals ours, heck its probably better. Ivy wouldnt be good for a few reasons, one of which being that toon's off the stage game is amazing and he has a easy time gimping, ivy is easily gimped already. We out camp him easily and im not positive, but dont bombs deal extra damage because of the fire thing? Charizard woldnt be a good choice because he is huge which makes him easy to hit with...well everything, but his rock is amazing.
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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
I think it's extra knock back for fire based moves.
That may be what it is, either way, its no help to ivy.
It might actually help, fire-based moves only do more knowckback, not damage. Bombs don't KO, so the extra knockback doesn't really matter there, if anything, the increased knockback may (not sure) allow Ivy to escape bomb-related strings such as the VG combo (don't know how often that's used, but you get my point).
Ivy still sucks in this MU though.
T-block
B2B TST
I don't play against TL very often, but I'm pretty sure Ivy's b-air cancels out arrows and boomerang... it might even wall bombs too. I wouldn't count Ivy out completely here.
But yeah, just maximize Squirtle's time.
But yeah, just maximize Squirtle's time.
It's been established now that Squirtle use should be maximised, so correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing that means we should go for a two-pokemon battery? So do we use Ivy or Zard for the second stock (if you're suppsoed to use a battery)?
Perhaps this?
IMO, it'd be pretty even. They both have thier own pro's and con's.
It wouldn't surprise me if Ivysaur just becomes dair fodder though, so I'm going to have to say Charizard.
T-block
B2B TST
This has been bothering me for a while. When did we start using the term "battery"? Like...I understand the concept you're referring to, but what exactly does battery mean lol
Personally, I'd just use both. Squirtle > Ivysaur/Charizard > Squirtle seems as good as anything, switching out Ivysaur at 80% or so. If you're good at powershielding (which isn't that hard, considering how slowly TL's projectiles move), Charizard has the dash speed to get past the projectiles despite how big he is, so I'm sure you'd be fine using him more if you wanted. U-smash OoS should be able to punish any of his aerials on your shield, I think. If you are gonna use Ivysaur at low percents, stay closer to the middle of the stage and watch out for the d-smash sweep.
This is all theoretical...again, I don't have much experience against TL
Personally, I'd just use both. Squirtle > Ivysaur/Charizard > Squirtle seems as good as anything, switching out Ivysaur at 80% or so. If you're good at powershielding (which isn't that hard, considering how slowly TL's projectiles move), Charizard has the dash speed to get past the projectiles despite how big he is, so I'm sure you'd be fine using him more if you wanted. U-smash OoS should be able to punish any of his aerials on your shield, I think. If you are gonna use Ivysaur at low percents, stay closer to the middle of the stage and watch out for the d-smash sweep.
This is all theoretical...again, I don't have much experience against TL
MaTA
Smash Ace
my friend recently started playing TL. Squirtle is the most safe option because you can avoid all the projectiles fairly easy. Starting Zard is 50/50...there is a ton to get past and if you get hit by one thing more then likely you'll get hit by another. If you can manage getting in you can rack up some good damage using lots of throws and such. Ivy is worst in my opinion because he's to slow in the air and a lot of toon links projects are thrown faster then his razor leafs.
hahahahaha i thought i was the only one
it's a synonym to words like "assault" in this case
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I've heard of people using the word "battery" like Bomber, but I've never been one to use it, haha.
As far as the Toon Link start discussion goes, I start Squirtle as well. I haven't fought many good Tinks, but Squirtle did the best by far against Santi when we played in tournament.
As far as the Toon Link start discussion goes, I start Squirtle as well. I haven't fought many good Tinks, but Squirtle did the best by far against Santi when we played in tournament.
Not to be condescending, I know you're a better player than me. but I think there's a few things wrong with this post. I play a Toon alot, but admittedly neither of us are good enough to use my experience as valid input.
However, just some general points, powershielding projectiles doesn't really solve the problem. Good Toons can punish powershielding some of the time. I think this is particularly a problem for Zard, because Zard probably wont wanna be in the air because his air game is inferior to Toon's particularly considering he has a blindspot infront of him, and can get bair-comboed. The problem with being grounded alot is in theory a Toon can punish any attempt you make to avoid a returning boomerang.
Also, I'm not sure how useful his dash speed will be to avoid projectiles considering Toons will always be in the air when spamming projectiles, and can just quickdraw whenever they land.
I think usmash OOS is unlikely to be effective. Toons rarely use their ground game, and don't really need to approach grounded opponents with aerials, they can just bomb your shield, or possibly a well-spaced zair may be safe (unsure), or even zair to grab (again unsure). You may catch them out if they dair your shield but I don't think good Toons do that very often.
I know it's usually a bad idea for lesser players like me to comment on MUs, so if I'm wrong let me know.
I was told battery meant using two pokemon for the entire match, hence saying Squirtle-Zard battery.
T-block
B2B TST
You don't have to worry about calling me out 
It's actually quite probable that what I'm saying isn't correct at all, considering how little experience I have. Don't be afraid to post your opinion either lol... we're not that scary =P
I think you misunderstood me slightly though. Powershielding and his dash speed should allow Charizard to get past the projectile wall, and get close to TL, which is where he wants to be. Powershielding is actually really safe if you can do it consistently. At the distances I'm talking about, powershielding shouldn't leave you open for anything. As for u-smash OoS, I was thinking if TL uses b-air into your shield, or messes up the spacing on n-air you could probably u-smash it. I don't really have anything to back that up though, so maybe I shouldn't have said it.
Meh...all in all, I'm probably underestimating TL a bit. I'd just wait for someone with more experience to come in and comment.
It's actually quite probable that what I'm saying isn't correct at all, considering how little experience I have. Don't be afraid to post your opinion either lol... we're not that scary =PI think you misunderstood me slightly though. Powershielding and his dash speed should allow Charizard to get past the projectile wall, and get close to TL, which is where he wants to be. Powershielding is actually really safe if you can do it consistently. At the distances I'm talking about, powershielding shouldn't leave you open for anything. As for u-smash OoS, I was thinking if TL uses b-air into your shield, or messes up the spacing on n-air you could probably u-smash it. I don't really have anything to back that up though, so maybe I shouldn't have said it.
Meh...all in all, I'm probably underestimating TL a bit. I'd just wait for someone with more experience to come in and comment.
looks like I get points for using a term that causes confusion.
But yeah, to try and clear things up, this is how I use the term battery:
Battery- The combination of pokemon used in the first stock (primarily speaking) and which way they are used effectively to fit your strategy and gameplay.
Ex: Bomber's Squirtle-Ivysaur battery uses Squirtle's speed to quickly build momentum as well as damage, then I switch to Ivysaur to make my way in for the KO. my option is then switching to Charizard for stock tanking, however I've been forgetting to do that lately only because I've been wanting to get more time in with Ivysaur >.>
In other words, it is best described by the way you "assault" in a match as Steeler said.
but anyway, it seems like we all agree that Squirtle is our best bet for starting against. If there is no objections, I'll take us to the next discussion after I get home from school tomorrow and I get off early due to exams this week.
But yeah, to try and clear things up, this is how I use the term battery:
Battery- The combination of pokemon used in the first stock (primarily speaking) and which way they are used effectively to fit your strategy and gameplay.
Ex: Bomber's Squirtle-Ivysaur battery uses Squirtle's speed to quickly build momentum as well as damage, then I switch to Ivysaur to make my way in for the KO. my option is then switching to Charizard for stock tanking, however I've been forgetting to do that lately only because I've been wanting to get more time in with Ivysaur >.>
In other words, it is best described by the way you "assault" in a match as Steeler said.
but anyway, it seems like we all agree that Squirtle is our best bet for starting against. If there is no objections, I'll take us to the next discussion after I get home from school tomorrow and I get off early due to exams this week.
Yeah I get what you mean about powershielding and dashing in to get close, but if the Toon doesn't overspam, that can be hard to do while staying grounded, because he can quickdraw, forcing you to either powershield or cop the hit, which allows him to reset the spacing, or he can just simply jump over you and throw a bomb down on you and you can reset it that way. Not saying you'll never get inside, but I think it's harder than you think.You don't have to worry about calling me out
I think you misunderstood me slightly though. Powershielding and his dash speed should allow Charizard to get past the projectile wall, and get close to TL, which is where he wants to be. Powershielding is actually really safe if you can do it consistently. At the distances I'm talking about, powershielding shouldn't leave you open for anything. As for u-smash OoS, I was thinking if TL uses b-air into your shield, or messes up the spacing on n-air you could probably u-smash it. I don't really have anything to back that up though, so maybe I shouldn't have said it.
Meh...all in all, I'm probably underestimating TL a bit. I'd just wait for someone with more experience to come in and comment.
With regards to powershielding being safe, Toon can do things which may seem like safe distances to you. For example, one that Hyro always talks about is SH bomb pull to quickdraw. If the opponent has played high level Toons, or you've done that a few times in match already, the opponent gets accustomed to it and will powershield the arrow on reaction. What Hyro likes to do then is shorthop bombpull without quickdrawing, which baits the PS, Toon can then apply bomb pressure by throwing and catching it if it bounces off your shield etc. you get my point, if the Toon plays it properly he can nearly always put Zard in bad positions with projectiles. I'm guessing returnin boomerang is problem for Zard too because he'll want to stay grouned.
With regards to usmash OOS, yeah Zard can probably punish a misspaced bair or nair, but my point is a Toon will pretty much never have to approach a grounded Zard like that.
At Bomber- To be honest, I think switching to Ivy for the KO is worse than just staying with a fatigued Squirtle, Toon wrecks Ivy in the air, razor leaf is pretty much useless because it has too much startup lag and Toon won't need to approach because of his superior projectile game, and Ivy's uair, which I'm guessing is his most viable KO move here, probably isn't too reliable because if you come high enough into the air to hit it, a Toon can throw a bomb down at you, or can normaly safely dair, because it forces you to airdodge or get hit.
I'm probably wrong on alot of what I said, so correct me if you need to.
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
Bomber, where have you been, I've been #2 in state for like half a year now lmaoRAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old main has come back to haunt me!
Suggested Starters: Squirtle and Ivysaur
Thoughts:
Squirtle- an obvious choice because we are matching speed and mobility fro speed and mobility. Squirtle has no problem getting around projectiles and does better on the ground imo. The only drawl back I see is that you have to be careful in the air because Tink has some pretty good options in the aur plus he out reaches Squirtle.
Ivysaur- meh-ish on this one. I've gone against Hyro with my Ivysaur and as long as I space like he does, I usually do fair, however he is #3 in my state, unlike me who is not ranked period. Imo, Tink could be able to overwhelm Ivysaur with projectiles which could be bad and has better aerials to boot imo. Despite me having used to play Toon Link, I havn't played the PT-TL match-up enough to say for sure, however I'm starting to play Hyro more now adays since I started hosting my own tournies.
I know Reflex can add more because he played Hyro at LasT4.
Anyways, Toon Link ***** PT in general.
Charizard is too big and is gonna get comboed/spammed. Good at getting close, I guess you should grab TL a lot.
Ivysaur is slow and can't really do anything special to Toon Link. We can OHKO you since you recover with a tether. If you're at around 20% or under, you shouldn't get near teh edge. If you get dsmashed, it's over. Don't use Ivysaur.
Squirtles your best bet. But I don't think it's anything about Toon Link...Squirtles probably better for a majority of matchups lol. Toon Link is still gonna bair the hell out of you...try to grab a lot, pummel, grab release and jab 3 times and count out loud while looking at your opponent when you do it (lolreflex)
Anyways, when I played reflex, his charizard and ivysaur did great...it's just that, as soon as I got momentum, the stock was gone. Squirtle is the only one who could keep up the whole time IMO. If the Toon Link plays right.
But anyways, bomber, we've never had a tourney set so I've never like...went all out, but if you wanna see the matchup, at the chinese inn this friday I'm gonna show you how gay Toon Link can play it lol. I'll camp, plank and dsmash ivy. Then hog. <3
Character Discussion: WARIO
Ok, almost there guys. Now we got Wario to think about. The chart suggests Ivy and Charizard.
My thoughts, due to limited experience, are it would be ok to start all three because they have good spacing capabilities and can keep Wario at bay for a while and build momentum for your fight.
Ok, almost there guys. Now we got Wario to think about. The chart suggests Ivy and Charizard.
My thoughts, due to limited experience, are it would be ok to start all three because they have good spacing capabilities and can keep Wario at bay for a while and build momentum for your fight.
T-block
B2B TST
Start Squirtle, switch to Ivysaur for the kill.
I might post more tomorrow after my exam
I might post more tomorrow after my exam
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Charizard mother****er
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
tasty
wario is weird
squirtle is by far the best at low to mid percent. ivysaur is gimp city and both ivy and charizard are combo snacks.
at high percent, the other two become a lot better and squirtle comparatively gets a lot worse since he lacks KO moves and is fatigue prone in this matchup.
although i don't really think ivy is a very good killer in this matchup either :s angled up fsmash maybe to catch short hop approaches. grab to nair (damage) or uair (kills at 120%). ivysaur has the same problems as charizard with wario up close (blindspots, lack of quick options in certain scenarios), except ivy just doesn't have the damage output to make up for it. wario fair gimps the **** out of ivysaur it's soooo easy. be very careful with ivy at low percent.
charizard does okay at zoning but once wario gets inside your frame you are in trouble, especially at low percent, and that can lead to half your stock being gone. blindspots are an issue but at least wario has zero range. usmash is amazing in this matchup, no joke. anyway you have a variety of KO options and live the longest of the three pokes (still not as long as wario though) so zard is the best late in stocks.
squirtle is so good until you have to kill wario and you get in danger of losing your stock at like...90%. your ground game *****.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Steeler hit the nail on the head. Squirtle's ideal for low-mid percents but has trouble KOing Wario, and Wario doesn't have trouble killing Squirtle. Wario also has--GASP--a grab release to dash attack on us. I know, scary, huh?
Charizard is usable like Magik said. You need to use nair a lot and then attack out of it. PhantomX seriously hates that move when we play, haha. If you let Wario get inside, which is really really easy for him to do, it's bite combo city.
Ivysaur is garbage in this MU.
Charizard is usable like Magik said. You need to use nair a lot and then attack out of it. PhantomX seriously hates that move when we play, haha. If you let Wario get inside, which is really really easy for him to do, it's bite combo city.
Ivysaur is garbage in this MU.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Ivy has a grab release uair anywhere on the stage, with squirtle and zard on the edge of the stage
T-block
B2B TST
Kay I'm bored of studying.
Start Squirtle and do your thing. F-tilt, f-air, f-tilt, n-air, f-tilt, jab, f-tilt, u-tilt, f-tilt, f-tilt, f-tilt etc. etc. You should be able to get him past 100% before you die. If you're not fatigued at this point, go for the KO. If you are, look for the switch to Ivysaur. I don't think KOing is all that hard. F-air, f-smash are nice, and grounded up-b is actually surprisingly useful too. But the way I almost always get the KO is grab release > u-air. Pivot grabs are so sexy in this matchup. Pressure Wario at safe range so he has to try to get in. Wario's know it's not hard to get in, and most of them will leave themselves open for pivot grabs. Stick with Ivysaur until he dies, then Charizard second stock.
I try to end the third stock with Charizard, even though you start it with Squirtle. It all depends on how quickly Squirtle can rack up damage really... if you have a ways to go before you get that last KO on your third stock, I try to get to Charizard for the survivability.
I really like this matchup actually. It's hard, but I feel like all three pokemon have a place.
Start Squirtle and do your thing. F-tilt, f-air, f-tilt, n-air, f-tilt, jab, f-tilt, u-tilt, f-tilt, f-tilt, f-tilt etc. etc. You should be able to get him past 100% before you die. If you're not fatigued at this point, go for the KO. If you are, look for the switch to Ivysaur. I don't think KOing is all that hard. F-air, f-smash are nice, and grounded up-b is actually surprisingly useful too. But the way I almost always get the KO is grab release > u-air. Pivot grabs are so sexy in this matchup. Pressure Wario at safe range so he has to try to get in. Wario's know it's not hard to get in, and most of them will leave themselves open for pivot grabs. Stick with Ivysaur until he dies, then Charizard second stock.
I try to end the third stock with Charizard, even though you start it with Squirtle. It all depends on how quickly Squirtle can rack up damage really... if you have a ways to go before you get that last KO on your third stock, I try to get to Charizard for the survivability.
I really like this matchup actually. It's hard, but I feel like all three pokemon have a place.
Steeler ***** this discussion. Squirtle is great for low percentages but will really have trouble landing that kill move on Wario, who can grab release CG to get him offstage, where he is much more advantaged than on it (do NOT pick a stage w/ a walkoff if you start Squirtle). Ivysaur is a stock lost, essentially. If you kill Wario, switch to Ivy or you'll be losing Squirtle pretty much immediately and then either take like 40+ damage off the bat with Charizard or losing your stock entirely as Ivy (seriously, it takes all of three seconds to gimp him w/ Wario's fair and nair).
Charizard can kill Wario surprisingly well with dtilt, a solid rock smash, and, most annoyingly, his super armored up b (or his dthrow if at high enough percentages since Charizard'd grab is retardedly huge). Charizard is a decent starter as well. He might get ***** really hard but he can generally outlive Squirtle and has high damage output thanks to rock smash, but then you'll have to face waft w/ Squirtle and have to attempt to land the kill with Squirtle, which is much easier said than done. He has additional tools in nair and, to an extend, upsmash (it's not hard to SDI out of it if you're using it as more than a random surprise).
Charizard can kill Wario surprisingly well with dtilt, a solid rock smash, and, most annoyingly, his super armored up b (or his dthrow if at high enough percentages since Charizard'd grab is retardedly huge). Charizard is a decent starter as well. He might get ***** really hard but he can generally outlive Squirtle and has high damage output thanks to rock smash, but then you'll have to face waft w/ Squirtle and have to attempt to land the kill with Squirtle, which is much easier said than done. He has additional tools in nair and, to an extend, upsmash (it's not hard to SDI out of it if you're using it as more than a random surprise).
After tonight's tourny, I got to see how well Charizard's performance was against Wario and I like what I saw. Even though it was teams, when Zigsta kept the other opponent at bay, I was one on one with Wario and I happen to have Charizard out and was amazed to see how decent he was doing.
So just as my current output: Squirtle and Charizard are approved in my book.
So just as my current output: Squirtle and Charizard are approved in my book.
I feel like Charizard should play like a DK would against Wario. It works pretty well.
Character Discussion: WOLF
Because my internet is acting screwy, I will make the summary and edit the chart for the Wario discussion later. For now I'll be out of town for the next few days with no internet so I'm going to start the next discussion
It's recomended that all 3 start. I've never met a good wolf player but just knowing how Wolf could play, I'd start with Squirtle.
Peace guys and Merry Christmas to you incase I'm not around to say so.
personal note* Wario: Start Squirtle-Charizard.
Because my internet is acting screwy, I will make the summary and edit the chart for the Wario discussion later. For now I'll be out of town for the next few days with no internet so I'm going to start the next discussion
It's recomended that all 3 start. I've never met a good wolf player but just knowing how Wolf could play, I'd start with Squirtle.
Peace guys and Merry Christmas to you incase I'm not around to say so.
personal note* Wario: Start Squirtle-Charizard.