• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

Toby.

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
3,156
Location
South of the border, west of the sun.
Charizard can't get out of the chain grab with rock smash. I'm not sure how you would expect it to work, since rock smash takes over 20 frames to hit :S

Or do you mean using the counter frames to escape the upsmash?
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
hmmm that's an interesting thought toby. the usmash may have enough priority that it goes right through the rock though
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
fly has super armor on frame 4 so it's not any better than rock smash for that purpose

anyway yoshi has like a 20 frame advantage or so on grab release so we shouldn't even have the chance to attack out of it
 

typh

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,726
Location
eugene
oh by the way yoshi has a thousand frame advantage and oh he's invincible

100-0

argh
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
1: stupid n00b spamming up my thread; gtfo!

2: Looks like Ivy is our best bet since it seems like we've gotten more support for Ivy than the other two. :/ Discussion is still open for the next day or so, might even leave it open for the whole weekend.

Edit- 3: requesting sticky of this thread.
 

Kith

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
858
Location
Miami, FL
I usually end up doing better with Ivysaur than Charizard now that I think about it. I wonder why :-\. I should figure that out lol
 

Chuckles_KSU

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
114
Oye, wwe're discussing Yoshi? Perhaps one of the few matchups I feel I know really, really well. It's one of the few ways in which my brother tortures me into a slow, painful demise....

Seriously though, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has trouble...

I'm pretty sure Yoshi was made just to counter PT. I mean, CG and followups on Squirtle and Charizard, great arial mobility, STUPID EGGS, being able to score strong hits when below us with pretty much nothing we can do, high recovery that can be difficult to punish, heavy armor on his second jump (Meaning he basically wins all move "clashes" in the air) super armor on his smashes.... It's a pretty big pain...

Anyway, he's my count on the matchups...

Charizard: This guy's my lead. Mostly because I think he has the best chance of the three to land the first KO, and even if Charizard bites it before Yoshi, it Leaves Squirtle in a decent position to clean up. Yoshi camps Charizard HARD with the eggs, but is possible with the right timing to run under a toss and punish with Rock Smash or something. The CG on Charizard is annoying but not a huge problem. DI away from him and hammer the jump button, and you'll be able to avoid most followups. (Offstage, at least. I've never been hit by an U-Smash out of a grab release, but my Yoshi player I don't think ever tries it.)

Offstage and in the air are where Charizard is really screwed... There is nothing you can do about an U-Air other than airdodge, thanks the Yoshi's heavy armor, and it will kill you at about 100%, more or less depending on ceiling. Yoshi can also nail you with N-Air out of the dodge before you can do anything if you don't DI away or summat... Trying to get back on the ground it a pain, as Yoshi runs along faster than Charizard can manuever in the air, and can meet you with a Smash attack or something. Landing with Rock Smash does not work, so it's best to go ahead and get that idea out of your head. Offstage, I hope you really like eggs, because chances are you'll be hit by a few. I actually have found Glide to be somewhat useful (At least, moreso than usual). You'll fly faster than Yoshi can run, manuever around the eggs better if you've gained some momentum, and can auto-cancel into a jab. I wouldn't advise trying to Glide attack an airborn Yoshi, though,.

The downsides outta the way, the upsides are few but rather nice. Best of which is by playing defensively, Yoshi has a really tough time approaching and scoring a hit. Rock Smash covery most approaches from the side, such as B-Air. Yoshi's Dash grab out reaches it and doens't activate the counter frames, but a back roll is usually enough to get out of the way and punish the ending lag. U-Air and U-Smash hinder approached from above. And of course, sheild grabbing is always a good option. I'd suggest keeping Yoshi as mid-close range, so he can't just start tossing eggs at ya.

One last thing to keep in mind. Yoshi's only option out of sheild is a spotdodge, I beleive... And we all know what Charizards F-Smash does to a predicted spot Dodge. :)

Squirtle: This one will be much shorter, I promise. Really, there's just not a whole lot Squirtle can do here. If Yoshi's above 70% or so, I'll usually try for a D-Throw to switch, since Yoshi's CG isn't lethal until about 20-30%. If you're quick enough, sometimes at really low percents you can force a ground break (I think you have to break before you get in his mouth...). Other'n that, if you get grabbed, once you're tossed off the edge, don't try to jump until after the spike. The jump kicks in just before Yoshi hits, and is essentially wasted if once the spike connects.

Before 70% or so, it's usually best to get to the other side of the stage, switch, and eat Yoshi's smash attack of choice.

Ivysaur: Ivysaur also makes a good lead. She does the best job at racking up damage, while avoiding it herself, but thanks to Yoshi's weight and mobility, likely won't KO outside of a lucky U-Smash or F-Smash. Other than that, alot of what was said about Charizard applies here. Ivysaur has an easier time dealing with Egg camping, mostly because she's smaller and has a projectile to fire back with. She lacks a good way to punish once she get's in there, though, except maybe a Dash grab on the shield or a spotdodge to something for everything else.

In the air, there's not a whole lot Ivysaur can do. Like Charizard, Yoshi can try to hit you with an U-Air or follow you're path to the ground and hit you then. Ivy's B-Air and F-Air are a bit more helpful than charizards in the latter situation, thanks to the longer reach, but other'n that, your best bet is to just try to manage. (It's admittedly probably easier to get to the ground than I make it out to be, but I tend to get bad juggled regardless of character, so it could be me overreacting.) Off Stage, just handle it like you'd handle any other character. If Yoshi tries to egg you, go ahead and take the edge. If Yoshi attempts an edgehog, then, well...

On the plus side, barring Yoshi's grabs, Ivysaur outranges and pretty effectively punishes everything he does. Dodged Smash attacks and Dash Grabs are just asking to get bullet-seeded, and provided Yoshi doesn't DI the popup hit, he'll be taking 30% or so before he's in any danger of getting free. This adds up stupid quick. Also, the fact that Ivysaur is the only one of the three not to get CGed is a huge plus.

Then of course, there's the fact that all yoshi can do out of a sheild is spotdodge, and we all know what Ivy's U-Smash does to spotdodges. :)

Seriusly, I think Yoshi's lack of OoS is one of the few advantages we have over him... :/

Anyway...

TL;DR

Start Charizard, don't get egg camped or caught in the air and everything will go alright. Charizard does a good job of limiting Yoshi's approach, but get's edgeguarded pretty bad.

Use squirtle if you think you can get a free switch with D-smash. Otherwish, just let Ivy eat a smash attack.

Ivysaur's pretty good at keeping Yoshi at bay. Bullet seed really does a number on him. The lack of CG is also nice. Again, don't get caught in the air, and everything should be alright.

:043:
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
i think you can lead with all three. squirtle can rack up some good damage at low percent and can mash out of yoshi's grab until 50% or so. it's obviously the riskiest pokemon to start with though, but it's not so bad on a stage that isn't FD or smashville or something.

ivysaur is most valuable as a refresher for the other two imo. not much to fear from yoshi. just play defensively. he's good to lead with, you'll be sure to have charizard fresh to kill if you need it.

charizard is the best overall matchup against yoshi. deals the most damage, fairly reliable KOer and doesn't get totally wrecked by the grab until usmash starts killing. if you don't take the stock off first, then squirtle can still come in and dthrow and not worry about the chaingrab until you can't mash out.

as a general rule, try and waste some time with squirtle and ivysaur and tack on some damage if you can because charizard's stamina is really important in this matchup. you probably aren't killing with ivysaur (because ivysaur never kills) and squirtle is a risk if he's a mid percent or higher. at low percent he's still the good cleaner he usually is. so you will likely rely on charizard for KOs.
 

Chuckles_KSU

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
114
Erm, Yoshi's pivot grab is like giant F- You to anything Squirtle can do... I'm not sure how you mash out of it with that much damage, all Yoshi has to do is get you in his mouth (Don't think he even has to chew), before you're forced to air release, and no matter how soon or late you air release, you're getting regrabbed. And past about 30%, Squirtles knocked too far down from the spike to recover.

If you wanna use Squirtle, CP Yoshi's Island. If I had a dollar for every time that platform saved me... :D

:039:
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Character Discussion: ZELDA

Ok, we only got 2 character discussions left and then it's open discussion for people to review the information we have thus far and argue their points if they don't agree with anything or if something honestly needs to be fixed, added, removed, etc.

Zelda is our next discussion. The suggested starter is Charizard. I've played our state's retired Zelda player who, before I entered the Brawl scene was top 5. However I didn't play him enough to really grasp a concept of how well each pokemon performed against Zelda seeing as the skill gap was so great. However from my observations of watching numerous videos of him playing I have to say this:

Squirtle- I honestly think that he wouldn't be too bad to start here. Squirtle I think would do good in the air and decent on the ground, I'm suggesting any stock tanking because Zelda has even more of a powerful punch in her magic which will send our little guy flying.

Ivysaur- ehh, he would get outcamped and plus with Din's Fire, it would get even worse not to mention she can reflect razor leaf and I think has a better air game than Ivysaur.

Charizard- I can see a comment eventually that will say that "Because Ivysaur will get ***** by Zelda and her spammy fire and better aerial game, Charizard is best because you are staying away from Ivy for as long as possible and even if Charizard goes down, Squirtle is next" My only concern is that Charizard is a big target, can get out camped and a good Zelda player can sweetspot her kick 9/10 times. Not only that but just like the other two pokemon, charizard is suseptable to Din's fire while trying to recover.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Let's finish this thread up soon and call it a job well done.
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
Not Charizard, haha. He's too easy to hit with a bair or fair. Squirtle's much harder for Zelda to hit.
 

Chuckles_KSU

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
114
Doesn't the first roll of Ivy's N-Air cancel out Din's fire? Don't have much experience with Zelda, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
Doesn't the first roll of Ivy's N-Air cancel out Din's fire? Don't have much experience with Zelda, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
Pretty sure I've done it before. Nair's got odd canceling properties.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Squirtle is literally all you need in this matchup, so we should probably start him. He's hard to hit and does well at getting in without being hit by smashes and stuff. He also kills fairly early since you can hit her out of her up-b for basically all of the startup. I find Zelda's very susceptible to hydrograb gimps as well.

If you have the lead, there's nothing wrong with using Ivysaur really... just be aware that Razor Leaf cannot outcamp Din's, so don't try. That said, if you have the lead just let her approach anyways since Din's is so easy to avoid. You shouldn't have much problem exploiting her approaches.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Din's fire is nearly useless. If you get hit with it more than twice a match you're a stupid player. Uair KOs Ivy at ridiculously low damage but other than that there is nothing wrong with starting Ivy. Zelda really approaches too poorly to give Ivy trouble. Razorleaf can be reflected only at certain distances.

Squirtle works well. Zelda has a lot of great moves to deal with his approaches but they all require too much commitment. He can get her off the stage and gimp fairly well. He can also camp if you really want.

Zard is ok but a big target for lightning kicks. Be VERY careful with any laggy moves. I think the Bair is around 5 frames or so.
 

Bestiarius

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
694
Location
Right behind you.
I'd say Squirtle for the same reasons as T-block. Squirtle just outmaneuvers Zelda so well. @ Tien, Din's Fire is a really good gimp move. That said, it is usually pretty easy to dodge, but the two bigger Poke's still shouldn't do as well against Zelda as Squirtle.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Important Announcement

As of now, updating this thread will go into an intermission. I just got robbed today while I was at school and lost my laptop as well as other items dear to me as well (and money too), I'm currently using my dad's old computer that we are probably going to be getting rid of soon. I also have alot of school stuff to do in the meantime and will have to use this old dinosaur to satisfy my online needs seeing as library and school computes suck horribly. In the mean time move long with the conversation if not I'll update whenever I get my laptop and other items back which will hopefully be soon, even if I have to hunt down the mother ****er that broke into my house and stole my stuff and kill them mysel to get it all back.

Hope you are all being cool and staying alive

~Bomber <3
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Character Discussion: ZERO SUIT SAMUS

Ok so I managed to make some time to squeeze in an update. This is our last discussion of the thread then it will be completed and then I will leave this thread up fro open discussion because I know some discussions were iffy.

Anyway onto our main topic. ZZS is suggested that you use Squirtle. I highly agree with this from experience. Squirtle does extremely well. I also think that Ivy does ok though imo is debatable for whether Ivy can do good enough to start; maybe as a switch option when starting with Squirtle but iffy about starting him. Charizard of course gets ***** by people like her; he can stand getting chained/whipped. However is the situation presented itself where he did make his way into CQC with ZZS then I'd expect some good from him though I'm not promoting Charz to start here.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
Squirtle is easily the best that you have against us. He's fast enough to get in on her and can juggle her very well. Your ground game is better than ours, though we beat you in the air (not by much compared to most other matchups though). Hug the ground til you can juggler her. Don't get infinited

Ivysaur is pretty bad in my experience, though I can't really pinpoint why. Probably because we run circles around her and outrange bair. We can grab release into uair juggles which will be very difficult for ivy to come down from.

Zard gets comboed like a ***** but can put the hurt on and edgeguard us decently well. Once again hug the ground and grab a lot. Don't get CGed or dashlocked though as zard is really susceptible to both.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
needs more discussion going >_> either that or I'll just update it after this weekend and call we can let this thread die.
 

Kith

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
858
Location
Miami, FL
Nick Riddle is right lol. Squirtle's air game can challenge ZSS's. I'm still not sure who I like better in this match up, Ivysaur or Charizard. The reason I say that is because Charizard's large hurtboxes and fear of people under him can potentially get him wrecked in this match up. ZSS is such a good juggler >.<. Ivysaur at least has some options. Oh, and if ZSS is trying to tether gimp Ivysaur, just DI towards her head and spam jump. You'll footstool her as she retracts her tether lol
 

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
7,878
Location
Woodstock, GA
NNID
LessThanPi
wubs all around <3
Oh no you don't >: (

Sorry that isn't very productive. I can't see Ivy doing well at all. Charizard I think can actually punish errors and build damage. You are gonna need as much squirtle as you can get so I'd start charizard and try and build damage for a dthrow kill by squirts. Skip Ivy.
 

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
Ugh bad memories of ZSS. I was a long time Kirby main before PT so I had to learn her inside and out just to stand a chance. (Arguably Kirby's worst MU) ZSS is one of the reasons I picked up PT.

- Definitely start with Squirtle for this one, he can pretty much shut down ZSS from my experience. As has been said before, his aerial game can match hers and Squirtle can get through her defenses quite nicely. But, the one thing that makes Squirtle ridiculous for ZSS to fight is, surprisingly enough, Water Gun.

Water Gun is Godsend against ZSS. It's absolutely amazing at messing up her spacing. It out ranges her whip and can push her off the ledge if you have control of the center of the stage. There's almost nothing she can do about it. I wouldn't spam it, but it's an incredibly safe and disrupting mix-up. Needless to say, always keep a charged one handy.

Also, it's VERY hard for ZSS to kill Squirtle if he plays safe. I usually live past 170-200% as Squirtle once I get a stock lead. Just let her come to you and punish her because all her ranged attacks are far too telegraphed to hit Squirtle. Stock tank with Squirtle until he dies if you get a stock lead. Ivy can do some damage if you know the MU, but otherwise just switch to Charizard and shield grab her, which is not hard at all tbh. But really, you're gonna want Squirtle again on your 3rd stock.


- The second best (but far from best) starter is the Ivyzard combo. Ivysaur does well against ZSS early on, (she gets wrecked by suit pieces though) but after about 60% it gets a little dangerous to keep her out due to the Plasma Whip's fire knock-back. And the farther Ivysaur gets knocked back, the harder it is for her to get inside of ZSS. Switch to Charizard and just stay in mid range of her; just inside her Plasma Whip range Her whip is SG bait and she doesn't have many effective options against a grounded Charizard. Just watch out for Stun Gun to Grab.


- The worst option would be to start as Charizard. It's not much worse than the second choice, but those suit pieces give ZSS an extra option OoS ans in the air that can really do a number on Charizard early on.

I think I'll start being more active on the PT boards. (I've been in "lurk" mode too long)
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
The armor pieces send Ivysaur off at a pretty dangerous angle iirc, so that's another reason why I wouldn't start Ivysaur. Squirtle can use the pieces really well though... if I were ZSS I'd probably toss two off if I were against Squirtle.
 
Top Bottom