• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Open Discussion

OK! The thread is finished guys! Great job! Now this is the chance for anyone to express their questions comments or concerns about the match-ups. I know there were a few discussions I think that there were some discussions that were questionable. This is the time to discuss them.
 

Kantō

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
2,123
Location
Syracuse, NY
this chart and guide is amazing!
great work on this i will be reading for any guidence. i also learned a few newthings already i must try out. great job.

EDIT: just have a minor problem, about the ness matchups. it seems your talking about lucas for squirtle? or is that just a typo? also does charizard have a chaingrab on lucas/ness?
 

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
just have a minor problem, about the ness matchups. it seems your talking about lucas for squirtle? or is that just a typo? also does charizard have a chaingrab on lucas/ness?
No, it's right. Ness and Lucas both get gimped by water gun and have the same problems fighting Squirtle.

Charizard only has a CG on Ness as far as I know. Lucas slides to far to re-grab. Go into training mode and just spam grab. Easiest CG in the game. It leads into a guaranteed D-Tilt kill at the edge at a high enough percent.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Bowser Take Two

Due to some popular demand, I'm reopening this thread. We are going to do this like we did last time: We will discuss each character in an orderly manner, so stay on the character topic. Also Just like last time, we give about a week, week and a half's time to discuss each character unless we finish a character discussion ahead of schedule. Keep in mind, we are reopening this thread to update it. So, happy posting everyone. :)

To make it easier on you guys, here's a reference below to show what info we have on Bowser and a summary of opinions. For specifics, follow the link to the page number where the discussion began.

:bowser2:
Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur Charizard

Summary:
Squirtle- Squirtle is a good choice for going up against bowser. Taking advantage of his natural agility and his good attacks: aerial, tilts, and grabbing, you can deal some damage really quickly to Bowser and in most cases he wont lay a hand on you. However it is suggested that since Squirtle is light and Bowser has some pretty strong attacks that when the opportune moment strikes that you switch to Ivysaur.

Ivysaur- Ivysaur is another good starter against Bowser. Many of her attacks are made to take on heavyweights like Bowser and deal some serious damage. For instance her Nair, bullet seed, titlts and Razor leaf will come in handy when you start with Ivysaur. Since Ivysaur isn't as great of a killer as charizard, it's your call as to if you decide to switch to Charizard or not.

Charizard- Charizard is good to start because overall, Charizard has more mobility over Bowser. Also Charizard can simply space in more ways than Bowser. Charizard is powerful and most of his simple attacks, like his tilts and grab are fast as well. Most likely, if Charizard was the first to start you could take a stock or two before it would be time to switch or he'd die. So with Charizard starting, you got some durability behind your start. Worst case scenario, you Charizard is at a killing % and you're going to die anyway, a suggestion is to switch to Squirtle, let Squirtle get KO'd and let Ivy come in and finish the stock.

Page: 3 - 6
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
oh god haha

zigsta incccc

ivysaur or charizard starter for sure. they both do significantly better than squirtle does against bowser.

ivy into charizard sounds appealing on the surface, with ivysaur dealing damage and then charizard landing the KO, but there's always an inherent risk to starting ivysaur at low percents, and honestly, i would just try to maximize charizard's time as much as possible.

i pretty much always start charizard against bowser. i might consider ivysaur if i have a nice platform configuration to work with (battlefield or lylat), but in general, you can't really go wrong with trying to have charizard out as much as possible.

as an aside, i think we need to consider stage as a factor in these discussions much more than we did previously.
 

CoonTail

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,554
Location
Long Island, NY
:bowser2:
Starter(s): Charizard

Summary:
Charizard- Charizard in this MU has almost all the tools to consistently either keep Bowser off stage/juggled/out of range. Zard's flamethrower is really good to tack damage on while keeping Bowser spaced away. U-smash makes it very hard on platform based stages for Bowser to land at all, tack in the fact that U-tilt has a smaller hitbox but similar range and juggling will occur. Zard's grab range can allow him to give chase to Bowser at points, but you just have to be wary of Up-B out of shield and that Side-B *facepalm*. F-air and D-air leave bowser in bad position and at higher %'s will gimp/KO Bowser since he will either get edgehogged or simply be too low to recover. B-air is the last tool I like to look at because it will outrange almost all of Bowser's Aerials outside of his B-air which has bad startup time.

Overall after watching T-block demonstrate such MU knowledge with Zard vs. Zigsta it's really hard to think about starting anyone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5-kTw6UXh4- game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFRoi6ZIhEY-game 3
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Yeah, when I played Zigsta I was really shocked to see how almost completely useless my squirtle was.

Starting out with Ivysaur/Charizard does sound more viable, especially now I have first hand experience with the Zigsta Bowser Zigsta Bowser ..... Bowser-Zigsta match-up.

I will make note that Ivysaur is a viable choice given the choice of stage.

Charizard is just a given considering his moves have good hit boxes which beat the crud out of someone like bowser.

*note- Just texted Zigsta, I'm hoping he will find time to post in here. The man at Dreamworks is busy I can assume.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Watching T-Block and MaTa's vids:

1) makes me wonder if he sandbagged me when we played

2) makes me realize how bad I am

3) Charizard has definitely proven his worth against Boswer

4) Ivy still iffy. Do we have anymore videos that would show Ivy's performance against Bowser?
 

Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
I defintely like Ivy/Char over Squirtle against Bowser. I feel like Fortress shuts down Squirtle's approach game, where at least Ivy/Char have disjointed options of attack.
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
Yay, this thread is finally reopened! :)
I hope we'll have more activity now.


Back on topic, I'll say that we have 2 viable starters :
Ivysaur and Charizard !
In my opinion, there is no big difference between them as a starter, it's a matter of stage/personnal preference.

We both agree on the fact that Squirtle sucks against Bowser, because Bowser has more range than Squirtle. His Fortress, just like Wolf's Shine, is a big annoyance. He's so light and Bowser is really strong, which can lead to an early kill.
Besides, he have that grab release stuff on us : he can regrab, dash attack, Fair, SideB and UpB out of an Air release, and regrab, SideB, DownB, Jab, Ftilt out of a Ground release ( Source : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617 ). I've also read he can walkoff Uair Squirtle.
Not to mention that Squirtle has a resistance to Bowser's Flamethrower, which makes escaping harder (even though Squirtle is light so that move shouldn't be much of a problem).
However, Squirtle can combo Bowser very well at low/mid % (and we're in a Starter discussion, so Bowser WILL be at low %), so if you start with him (when I don't know which character I have to fight, I start with Squirtle), try to land a nasty combo then switch to Ivysaur if you can (Zero Switching will be okay even without landing a single hit on him). Squirtle has an FThrow CG if you can dashgrab him. But you can't Ground release to Jab Bowser because he goes too far. Anyway, if you're playing as Squirtle, avoid getting grabbed. Really.

On the other hand, Ivysaur does just fine against Bowser. He (she? >:3 ) can wall Bowser very well with his Bair (Fair also I believe?), I assume tilts are also very effective since he's big. Ivy can outcamp Bowser with his Razor Leaf. Nair and BulletSeed are awesome at damage racking.
Bowser is not amazing at edgeguarding, but still, be careful because he has some powerful moves, like his Fair. Bowser has an Air release to Fair/SideB on Ivy, so try not to get grabbed when you're at high %. Bowser has many Ground release options as well : regrab, UpB, SideB, DownB, Utilt, DTilt, FTilt, Jab.
It should be noted that Ivy's weakness to Fire-based moves is a pro against Bowser : he can escape Flamethrower more easily.
However, Ivy can have some problems at killing Bowser, especially since fatigue can be a problem if you play defensively (which is, I believe, the best choice against Bowser) so I'd recommend that you rack up some damage with Ivy (without being hit much), then switch to Zard for the kill, and for tanking the stock, trying to rack up damage on Bowser (so it'll be easier to DThrow + Switch with Squirtle). But there's still a risk of losing a stock offstage with Ivysaur, so it's up to you to choose whether you start with Ivy or not.

Last, but not least, Charizard. He's the other best option overall when it comes to chosing your starter. I usually don't like starting with Charizard, because he gets comboed at low %. Bowser doesn't have this kind of combos. He can just regrab/dash attack/Fair if you choose to Air release, and the same things that he can do to Ivy if you choose to Ground release.
However, Zard doesn't have much combos neither when Bowser is at low % (SideB -> USmash works at any %). He has BThrow to regrab, and I think that's it. I'm not saying that Zard isn't a good starter, because he's good against Bowser no matter how many % he has.
It should be noted that you can have some problems when you have to kill Bowser if you started with Zard, because of the fatigue.
Anyway, I don't have anything to add about Zard, you guys have already pretty much sumed up everything.

Conclusion : Ivy&Zard
There's a possibility to start with Squirtle if you're playing on SV (because of the zero switching obviously), but I'd not recommend it.

I know this isn't a matchup discussion, but should we speak about the matchup ratio? I think it could help.

PS : Sorry for my english :awesome:
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
You guys all suck BOOTY.

I'm going out of town this weekend but will get to this next week.

:phone:
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
I refuse to acknowledge that I'm up at this hour making an unrelated post in my own thread.

To make my post more legit: Take your time Zigsta. Look forward to your enlightenment on this subject.
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
These are my thoughts reposted from the panel discussion:

:pt:

I've been fortunate enough to play nearly ALL the top PT mains: Reflex, Magic, typh, T-block, and MaTa. Out of those, I've only used Bowser against typh, T-block, and MaTa. I still mained PT when I played Magik and Reflex well over a year ago.

It's crucial to remember how fatigue works, mainly for the Squirtle MU: When a Pokemon comes out, they have 90 seconds worth of freshness. Every second they're outside of their Pokeball, one second is taken off that freshness, and every MOVE used outside of the Pokeball removes an additional second. This means Squirtle gets fatigued MUCH faster than Charizard, for example. For every second a Pokemon is within a Pokeball, he recovers either 2 or 3 seconds (I can't remember) of freshness.

The hardest part about this MU is readjusting to each Pokemon's playstyle because they all require Bowser to play differently. I'll break it down into all 3 Pokemon.

:squirtle:

Squirtle's gonna rush you. If for some reason Squirtle starts camping you, know you've already won the fight: A camping Squirtle makes for a fatigued Squirtle.

Following that mentality, don't be overly aggressive against Squirtle. The more you wait, the weaker he gets.

Squirtle's main approach method is aerials, most notably his fair and bair. Bairs are often used following a shellshift and are often retreated, making bair harder to punish. Fair, on the other hand, isn't hard to shield and punish as long as you're used to how fast it comes out. Squirtle's nair is much rarer. At low percents, he's likely to SH nair into a grab or jab. If you see Squirtle SH nairing, get ready to shield the jab. If you can shield jab 2, you can grab Squirtle, which is where Bowser really shines in this MU. The AR CG is really, really easy on Squirtle--just dash grab him right before he hits the ground (exact same timing for GR>Klaw on him). KOing Squirtle is easy GR-wise compared to the rest of the cast and really, really, REALLY satisfying: We have GR>runoff upair on Squirtle. If Squirtle's around 80-100%, DO IT.

Squirtle will NEVER SH upair because it has ending lag. If you happen to see Squirtle do that, punish him. Likewise you'll almost never see SH dair. Dair's mainly used FH'd atop your shield because it shieldpokes OR offstage because it has pretty good knockback and helps make fair/bair more fresh.

At low percents, Squirtle has an uptilt>upair>fair combo for something like 60% damage. It's basically a bunch of uptilts, a few upairs, and then a fair. I honestly don't care. Bowser gets back in the game really easily in this MU as long as you get back to the ground after the fair.

When Bowser's around 130ish%, Squirtle can KO with dthrow. If you notice Squirtle playing extra aggressive, he's probably fishing for a grab. HOWEVER, if Squirtle is fatigued (if Squirtle stops moving and bends over, it means he's tired), this move KOs MUCH later. Just DI it up and into the corner.

If Squirtle does a ridiculously long grab on you that covers half the stage out of his shellshift and successfully grabs you on the ledge, DO NOT BREAK OUT. This is Squirtle's Hydrograb. If you mash out, you will be automatically placed underneath the ledge in a PERFECT position to be footstooled. If you don't mash out, you will not be released in that position.

Squirtle's ftilt is really safe on shield. It comes out SUPER fast and has hardly any lag whatsoever. At low percents, you'll likely see Squirtle going for ftilt>jab if he decides to approach you on the ground. Another trick Squirtle likes to do when you're offstage is wait for you to come to the ledge, ftilt you, then runoff fair.

Bowser does much better against Squirtle on a stage with little to no platforms OR where the terrain is uneven, like Brinstar (Bowser takes a massive dump on PT there). Uneven terrain messes up Squirtle's shellshifting, which gives him one less mixup tool in approaching Bowser, which is REALLY important for Squirtle in this MU.

If you have a lead against Squirtle, especially a stock lead, DO NOT APPROACH. Squirtle has NO safe way to approach Bowser as long as you're aware of how his movements function.

:ivysaur:

Ivysaur's gonna be going for a lot of Bullet Seed here. Most PT mains say BS is overrated, and it totally is...with the exception of tremendously fat characters like Bowser. I don't remember the exact percents because this is a MU I don't pay attention to my percent in, but I think it's around 30-45% or so. Don't care. At low percents you should expect nair>BS. Nair's punishable by Fortress OoS, but be aware that it does shieldpoke.

Bair comes out really fast but it stupid weak. As in like a measly TWO PERCENT stale/fatigued. It has hardly any lag, though, so it can be shorthopped into other attacks pretty easily.

Dair/upair are both REALLY laggy. Expect upair when Ivysaur is on a platform above you. Ivysaur like to use dropdown upair just like Wario. However, unlike Wario, it not nearly as lagless. If you see it coming, you can punish the ending lag really easily. Dair can spike, but you'll most likely see Ivysaur go for a nair spike over a dair spike when tether edgeguarding because nair has a LOT less lag and makes it way easier for Ivysaur to regrab the ledge.

Fair's often done retreating and can be harder to punish when executed properly. It's one of the ways Ivysaur will KO.

Unlike Olimar, Ivysaur goes up a BIT following the tether, but it's not much. Ivysaur's not as lolivysauroffstage as you'd think, though. If you're grabbing the ledge and Ivysaur is facing you, he will either Razor Leaf you (which has random trajectory and may actually miss, therefore BONING Ivysaur's hopes and dreams FOREVER), nair you, or fair you. Ivysaur also like to use REVERSE Razor Leaf in order to bair you while you're on the ledge. If you see Ivysaur's back to you offstage, this is the ONLY thing he'll do. One more thing of note is if Ivysaur has no chance in hell of making it back, he'll still go for the Vine Whip. If he sweetspots YOU, you'll be sent flying downwards along with Ivysaur. It's deceptively strong, and a lot of people forget about it.

That said, you want Ivysaur offstage ASAP. This is a MU where I GR>dtilt even if it's not gonna KO just because it has the most knockback out of our GRs on Ivysaur and thus sends him closer to offstage. We can infinite Ivysaur via GR if he doesn't mash jump, which you'd be surprised how often you can pull off on PT players. Like Wario mains, they're used to NOT mashing jump to escape grabs because Squirtle gets additional GRs against some characters if he mashes out jump, ie Fox can GR>upsmash. I find that after like 4 regrabs or so, the Ivysaur will often mash jump as a means to try escaping. Most of the time I just go for GR>dtilt, though. If Ivysaur's around mid percents, one fair/nair/bair offstage will send him too far away to recover.

If you see Ivysaur throwing out Razor Leaf, don't worry. It's one of the easiest projectiles to PS in the entire game. A good Ivysaur, though, doesn't use RL to damage you. Like Samus using Missiles to bait a shield and get a grab, Ivysaur uses RL to bait shields. Some Ivysaur also like using runoff RL when you're knocked offstage just for extra damage before they grab the ledge and then proceed to bair/nair edgeguard you.

Ivysaur's fsmash can be angled and is deceptively strong and fast. If you can shield it, it's punishable. Dsmash is lol and won't EVER be used unless you're getting HARD trolled. Upsmash is stupid, stupid strong and will KO Bowser MUCH lower than we're used to, but it's craaaazy laggy. Most Ivysaur tend to upsmash in the opposite direction you think they'd upsmash. It's something typh told the PT boards a long time ago, and a lot of them I played still do this.

Ftilt can shieldpoke and is used to rack up damage. At low percents, expect bair>reverse ftilt. Dtilt is kinda like ICs' dtilt in that it comes out fast and can actually KO. If Ivysaur rolls behind you, expect a dtilt (or BS because PT mains can just go beat off right quick as Bowser gets BS'd). It's a trick Reflex told the PT boards to do against big characters like D3 and DK to get behind some of their long-reaching attacks like ftilt (moreso for D3 than DK in this example, of course).

Beware of Vine Whip as a KO move. People forget Ivysaur can do it onstage. Like Olimar's chain, it comes out diagonally. It has SUPER STUPID knockback when sweetspotted. If you're diagonally in the air away from Ivysaur and he's onstage, you're either gonna get Vine Whipped or he'll read your AD with upsmash or a grab/pivot grab.


:charizard:

Get ready for Rock Smash and grabs. This is a MU where you don't wanna be caught shield camping because RS can shield poke if your shield isn't full/almost full, and Charizard has the greatest grab range in the game (I forget if it's dash grab or standing grab range--I know D3 is one, and Charizard is the other. Regardless, watch your shield.).

Ftilt beats out RS with proper spacing and timing. Time it too late, and you'll take damage as well from the smaller bits of RS. Time it right, and the rock will drop straight down and do no damage or knockback. At low percents, Charizard will go for RS>upsmash. It does like 45% damage or so.

One good thing about RS is Charizards tend to use it waaaaay too much instead of trying to go for more creative approaches. When in doubt, they usually just Rock Smash. If you're used to its range, you can bait it.

Charizards also like doing falling Flamethrower on me. If I see them doing it more than once, I usually bait it and then Bowser Bomb Charizard. It works really, really well. I land more Bowser Bombs on Charizard than any other character in the game just by baiting Flamethrower and Rock Smash.

Nair is relatively lagless when SH'd. Charizard have been using this a lot the past year or so as part of their expanding his metagame. If Charizard nairs in front of you, he's baiting you into a grab. It's laggy when FH'd, though.

Bair is strong when sweetspotted and comes out fast. If you pressure Charizard up close, though, it's really weak. Note that it can spike when you're up close to Charizard's body. It's a very weak spike, but people rarely expect to get spiked by that move in the first place.

The big aerials to watch out for are dair and fair, most notably offstage. This MU's pretty even just by baiting Charizard and then punishing him as long as you don't get hit by dair or fair offstage. Both of them gimp at really early percents.


I go back and forth on which character we do best against. It's honestly player and stage dependent. They all have ways to beat Bowser, but it's nothing staggering. I'm 100% confident in my -1 rating and refuse to accept PT as a -2, which is what the PTs are pushing for for some reason. I've played this a MU a LOT against the BEST players, and while they definitely beat us, it's an easily winnable MU.

Oh, and if you ever play a PT, take his *** to Brinstar. Back in the day some dumb PT main posted that Brinstar was really good for PT, so some of them still like it, but the truth is PT is garbs there and Bowser is awesome there.
Let me know if anything needs clarifying or if you need something else.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
I call. What you got.

Bowser is way too good on Brinstar. I do think it's a good stage for PT, but yeah... banning that against Bowser from now on >_>

Squirtle:

I have no problems calling this matchup even or a slight advantage to Squirtle, to be honest, if we assume neither side is playing with the express intent of running away (the advantage shifts to Squirtle in that situation imo). The long range on your tilts and up-b OoS actually give trouble to Squirtle trying to approach. On the flipside, Bowser has troubles approaching Squirtle as well, since Squirtle is much more mobile, and f-tilt will wall out a lot of Bowser's approaches.

However, Zigsta's summary of PT really makes me question how much he understands the character ;) Against Bowser, my main approaches against a non-attacking Bowser will be shellshift f-tilts and rising full hop b-airs, both of which are going to be safe on shield. Short hop u-air does not have landing lag - in fact, it ends well before Squirtle hits the ground - but the reason it's not used here is because it gets beat by up-b OoS. Out of a successful f-tilt, we can jab, f-tilt again, f-air, grab, plus other options. If you're at low percents, they hydrograb > footstool is going to work regardless of whether you mash - just something to keep in mind. D-throw won't kill at 130% if you DI properly, even if Squirtle is fully rested... it's more like 150% against Bowser. Fatigued Squirtle is not THAT much worse than non-fatigued Squirtle. Following that, Squirtle is not guaranteed to rush you. In fact, that's a quick way to eat a lot of up-b's >_>

Anyways, I don't think any of you will contest that Bowser can compete with Squirtle. I'm curious as to whether any of you think you have the advantage over Squirtle, but overall it's not all that relevant because the other two will see more use.

Ivysaur:

More corrections to Zigsta's post:
  • D-air or even n-air offstage are too risky to be my edgeguarding choice against Bowser. I'd rather b-air repeatedly until I force you to recover onto the stage, at which point I can land a f-air, u-air or n-air, depending on your percents
  • Saying we're not going to mash jump as Ivysaur because we're not used to doing it as Squirtle is completely ridiculous. Count on us air releasing as often as any other character

Other than that, you did all right here, Zigsta =P

Ivysaur is a character that is basically built to counter characters like Bowser. There are two overarching facets to Ivysaur's play. One is walling the opponent out aiming to prevent them from reaching Ivysaur. The other is poking shields to deal damage - she has a very unique way of shield pressure in this sense. Bowser is particularly susceptible to both of these.

Yes, b-air is weak, but it's purpose is not to rack up damage, but rather to disrupt. It has stupid range and is pretty quick. Some characters can capitalize on a b-air happy Ivysaur, but Bowser does not really have the mobility to do so. It fulfills a similar role to Falco's lasers. The move disrupts Bowser's momentum and puts control over the flow of the match in Ivysaur's hands.

Bullet Seed is ridiculous in this matchup, and the videos show that well. Even with good SDI it's at least 30% on Bowser. A lot of moves can be punished by Bullet Seed (spotdodge > Bullet Seed will punish f-tilt, and GRAB :)), including whiffed up-b's. With Bullet Seed, the risk is still there, but in this case the reward is so great that the move becomes amazing.

Grab release > d-tilt blows, but with proper DI Ivysaur is going to recover unless you get some hard read on our recovery. Death out of grab release isn't guaranteed to come to Ivysaur until high-mid percents, where the impact of a gimp isn't nearly as large.

Charizard:

Corrections to Zigsta's summary:

  • Charizard's grab range isn't the greatest (shorter than Dedede's by a decent amount), but it's complemented well by his high dash speed
  • Rock Smash > u-smash will do 61% max
  • Bad Charizards follow "when in doubt, Rock Smash"; for Bowser, it's "when in doubt, Flamethrower", and it's actually effective - more on this in a sec
  • Pretty sure I didn't get hit once by Bowser Bomb for using Flamethrower or Rock Smash
  • N-air has autocancel frames and is lagless on short hop
  • Brinstar is a good choice of stage precisely because it is really bad for Charizard

Okay - Flamethrower. It's so good in this matchup to the point where you can almost spam it and get away with it. As long as you don't hold it out for too long, there's nothing Bowser can do to punish it. If you try to jump over it, Charizard will be out of the animation long before you get there (not to mention you need to use your double jump to reach Charizard, and being above Charizard without a double jump is not a good place to be). Honestly, this move alone shuts down a lot of Bowser's options - it allows Charizard to dictate the pace of the match.

As for Rock Smash, it should be noted that Rock Smash is basically going to poke your shield unless it's full. If your shield isn't completely healthy, it's going to be hard to deal with unless you can hit us before the Rock Smash connects, which is admittedly possible, but difficult against a smart Charizard considering he doesn't have to use it. Once your shield is below full, Rock Smash basically gets a huge boost to the reward side of its risk-reward. Hell, 3:22 of Game 1 was probably a full shield and it still got poked.

Charizard also has a fantastic juggle game, and Bowser's Klaw is the only thing keeping this matchup from easily being +3 from this aspect alone. For a character like DK, running under a falling DK after a u-throw allows Charizard to cover virtually all options. Shield grab back to u-throw will be a common choice, as will u-smash. U-air is a solid mixup in these situations as it will hit earlier and condition for air dodges in the future. U-tilt and n-air have their uses as well. Bowser finds himself in a similar situation, except that his Klaw allows him to beat shield, so it's not nearly as bad. You can see the application at 0:40 of the first game, and Bowser escapes barely thanks to Smashville's platform.

Perhaps what is less obvious is the mobility advantage, which is showcased well in Game 3 that was uploaded. Charizard's dash speed allows him to bait more than Bowser could ever hope to do (see f-air baited at 0:48, up-b baited at 0:53).
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
Oh, I've already read that (I was on the IC panel. :p ).

Well, I do think that the MU is +2 for us, but it's not what we want to know because we're talking about the choice of the starter.

So, we both agree on the fact that Ivysaur and Charizard are the best starters against Bowser?

I think I'd start as Ivysaur on stages we can Zero switch on (especially SV and Lylat), and use Charizard on the stages like Frigate, Delfino, RC, etc...

What do you think?
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
I would agree with that, if you're comfortable with Ivysaur.

Personally, I prefer to start Charizard in pretty much every case (unless I end up on Brinstar or something), but there's certainly something to be said about getting Ivysaur against Bowser at low percents.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
I read the first paragraph of Zigsta's explanation and stopped. I will read it tomorrow after I've had a good night's sleep. I only got about 3 hours of sleep last night and with school, I'm a little tired. I will plan on updating the OP some time tomorrow with the best summary I can come up with based on what has been said, until then, this is the final call for your 2 cents. All in all, I think we can all agree, Ivysaur and Charizard are the best choices to start against bowser. I want to thank you guys for participating in this discussion, I hope we can keep this ball rolling and I'm excited to update this thread and help keep out knowledge updated and fresh. God bless. :)
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Captain Falcon take Two

Sorry for not updating right away, I got busy with school stuff, but we are now ready to discuss Capt. Falcon. Here's the summaries from last time plus the links to the pages where we can view what was said last time.

I want to thank everyone again for being active in this thread. Let's keep this going! Happy posting. :)

:falcon:
Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur Charizard

Summary:
Squirtle- Squirtle is good to start because his speed and agility can out preform Cpt. Falcon. Squirtle is also up against a decently strong character so the best thing to do is guerrilla tactics of hit and run then switch to Ivysaur when the time is right.

Ivysaur- Ivysaur is the second great choice to starting out against Cpt. Falcon. Despite Falcon being faster than us, Ivy has some good defensive capabilities which should take care of any assault by the Falcon. Ivysaur has him beat in the air and on the ground. Ivy also has him out spaced with razor leaf and some of her titlts, most commonly ftilt and dtilt. Minor thing to watch out for is just knock back of his fire based attacks, but since Ivy has so many great moves that would allow yourself to space against falcon, it shouldnt be a problem. Switching to Charizard, it's your call on this.

Charizard- Charizard is the third great choice for going against Falcon. charizard too has good spacing abilities with flamethrower and his tilts. Charizard is good in starting for his mobility and his endurance, plus he is strong so you could well take some stocks before he dies or if you arent as good with charizard, you can rack up some damage before Charizard is KO'd. Because all three are good for starting, switching is your call. If charz is about to die and squirtle is your worst, just sacrifice squirtle and go to Ivy or something like that. Switching in this match up very flexible.

Page:6 - 8


P.S- I'm keeping my typo for the lulz
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
I wouldn't really consider starting anyone other than Squirtle...

Definitely don't like Ivysaur vs. CF.

Charizard is eh... don't see why you would start him over Squirtle though.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Since this thread was made, I've played as Falcon many, many times so I've grown to appreciate his abilities.

Squirtle is a clear choice because he's small, fast, and hard to reach which will put the pressure on Falcon and would render him practically useless.

Ivysaur, ehh, I get this feeling in the back of my mind Ivysaur could be an option assuming you wanted to start out defensively against falcon. However there is a gamble because Falcon's moves are fire based and on top of that he does have a significant amount of power behind his moves, especially his fire based moves and throw in the additional knock back Ivy receives, in my opinion, it would be something that would be up to the player.

Charizard, all I can see in my mind right now is Falcon landing sweet spotted knees on poor Charizard. Then when Charizard tries to do something like space with flamethrower, he gets jumped over and gets a nice b-air to the head. Unless you just wanted to be a rocksmash happy PT, I don't think there are too many options for Charizard against Falcon that would prove useful for starting. After all, Falcon can run circles around Zard and there isn't much we can do about it.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
screw the fire moves. the additional knockback is whatever. it's the fact that falcon has the mobility to penetrate ivysaur's zoning, and that spells bad news when you factor in moves like falcon's u-air against ivysaur's lack of gtfo moves when under pressure.

i think we're feeling similar things about charizard though.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
I can only assume the u-air is a pain if we decide to take the fight to the sky. I would think trying to keep the fight on the ground mainly would give Ivy a chance.
 

lordhelmet

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
4,196
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Charizard and Ivy are both really terrible against Falcon.

I don't know exactly how stamina works, but it's usually your best bet to use Squirtle last. Falcon will have a comfortable lead > Falcon starts sandbagging > Squirtle comes in and two stocks.

It happens to me a lot :(
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
grounded ivy has even less of a chance of keeping falcon out though. all it takes is one grab > u-throw to get ivy into the air. and like... plenty of stuff will lead to falcon pressuring ivy into getting grabbed.

lol lordhelmet i like it

so yeah, squirtle first
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
Well, I've played a few matches against Teluoborg (maybe you've already seen him here on smashboards?) 2-3 months, ago.

My favorite starters against Falcon are :
Squirtle & Ivysaur



Squirtle is an awesome starter against Falcon (he may even be the best).

Squirtle can rack up damage extremely quickly on Falcon. At the beggining of the stock, he'll totally **** Falcon with his juggling game (U-tilt, U-air, U-throw).

Squirtle has a huge mobility so he can compete with Falcon's one. He's also so small, and since Falcon's hitboxes aren't large at all, it'll be difficult for him to hit/kill (not to mention that Squirtle resists Fire moves).

So yeah, Falcon hasn't got a good range (his range is not that bad, but no sword/hammer, etc...) which is very good for Squirtle, who lacks range. Your tilts/jab are gonna be very important on the ground.

He also has a pretty good edgeguarding game : Fair, Dair and Bair can put Falcon is a terrible situation.
By the way, one more thing : Squirtle's ftilt ***** Falcon's UpB when he's recovering, and Dash Attack stage spikes.

I don't know if Falcon has any air release shenaningan though (no walkoff knee plz D: ).

One good thing is that if you start with Squirtle, you're likely to kill Falcon before he kills you. So, you'll certainly be fatigued after that. When fatigued, Squirtle can destroy Falcon with his U-tilt lock. Start at 20% untilt (lol I actually mistyped but it's funny so I don't remove the t) 100% (about 10-15 U-tilt).

Playing the second stock with Ivy then switch to Zard for stock tanking and having a fresh Squirtle is a good strategy.

I definitely like starting Ivysaur against Falcon. Ivy outcamps and walls Falcon very well from what I've seen and playing safe is effective imo. We can obviously outcamp him with Razor Leaf, which is a good thing.

Bullet Seed is really effective on Falcon. He doesn't have much range, he doesn't have disjointed hitboxes (well, no sword/hammer at least), no projectile, so he has to get in, which can be somewhat difficult if you're spacing right. And if he manages to get in, Ivy is in trouble, but BS is there.

Ivy's fire weakness can be a problem, but the only fire move you're likely to be hit with is FSmash (which will kill you quite early), because you can react to Raptor Boost, Falcon Kick and Falcon Punch.

I like switching to Charizard to tank the stock (and kill if I haven't already taken a stock with Ivysaur)when I'm at mid-high %, so Squirtle is next.

When I start with Ivysaur, my strategy is ot play the first and third stock as Ivysaur and switch to Charizard when I'm at mid-high%, and to play the second stock as Squirtle.


I don't really like Charizard on this matchup. He's so slow compared to Falcon, and he's also a sandbag. Falcon is gonna abuse his mobility to put you in the air via Dash Attack for instance.

It's not that bad for Zard though. He has a pretty good range, which helps him a lot. RS is also very effective on Falcon. I feel like we win on the ground, but we really lose in the air..

Not a bad matchup, but I don't see any reason to starting with Zard over Squirtle/Ivysaur.


In a nutshell, I'd say that Squirtle is the best starter, but not by much, Ivysaur is totally viable too.
 

CoonTail

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,554
Location
Long Island, NY
Charizard and Ivy are both really terrible against Falcon.

I don't know exactly how stamina works, but it's usually your best bet to use Squirtle last. Falcon will have a comfortable lead > Falcon starts sandbagging > Squirtle comes in and two stocks.

It happens to me a lot :(
I am not sure what to even do with this post. To start if there is a starter for this MU it's squirtle due to the fact that his ground mobility can simply overwhelm falcon. Between hydrojabs and grabs we can basically smack Falcon around the stage forcing him to the air. All squirtle needs is falcon above him to leave Falcon without any serious options figuring Falcon's D-air or N-air cannot compete with squirtle U-air/F-air/B-air/D-air. All of our low % combos apply to falcon to so that means a single f-throw at 0% is going to equate to at least 25-30%, god forbid we get an Up-tilt we can go into u-air string/ u-air x2 -> D-air to put Falcon offstage/ U-tilt x5 into grab -> jab combo which will refresh Squirtle's entire moveset. Offstage falcon is miserable against squirtle due to f-air/b-air/d-air all have potential to gimp falcon. Tack on the fact that water gun has use against Falcon and this MU looks even worse.

@LordHelmet

As far as Zard not doing well against Falcon all I can say is I want to know who's Zard you fought with Falcon. Almost the entire moveset Falcon has can be RS counter'd and with general ease compared to attempting RS counters against higher tiers. Zard's spacing and grab game are what can really handle Falcon due to the fact that flamethrower is going to make it hard for falcon to approach grounded. His size, weight, and major options out of flamethrower all spell disaster for him since all Zard has to do is tilt Flamethrower up leaving Falcon without much capability besides attempting to U-air through it(Which doesnt work out to well). B-air and F-air offstage or close to the ledge push falcon into rough position and can force him to recover on stage, if Falcon has RCO landing on stage I am pretty sure we can punish with ledgehop RS -_-.

Overall Falcon only scares Ivy due to high aerial mobility and general movement speed, but as far as Zard and Squirtle go they both outclass falcon in different aspects. Squirtle has more mobility, better combo strings (that all apply here since Falcon is a heavy), better aerials, and lastly a better edgeguarding game. Zard has both better range and spacing than falcon along with better damage output leaving falcon to attempt to force Zard in the air to juggle him. N-air and B reverse RS can get you back to the ground along with forcing Falcon to back off.

I just don't see much at all Falcon has on Zard.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Kinda building on what CoonTail said about the flamethrower, can we catch Falcon in flamethrower once he's offstage and keep him there even after the flame is at it's smallest? I did it once in a match against Olimar, granted this was during the last stock and it helped me turn the match around in my favor, but doing something like early in the game I would think would be really useful.
 

CoonTail

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,554
Location
Long Island, NY
No the fact is his options are nothing special outside of U-air.......are you seriously overestimating the what 4 or 5th worst character in the game.

All Zard has to do is zone and space falcon, if you tack in a quality RS then one F-air of B-air gimps him.

Why suddenly is falcon not going to get zoned out figuring his approaches are obvious and bad??
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
who cares that he's near the bottom of the tier list? that doesn't directly influence the charizard-falcon matchup in any way.

zoning and spacing falcon is difficult when falcon has the second highest dash speed in the game with a damn high air speed to complement that (his top air speed trumps squirtle's). and what's more, something that people often forget about is vertical mobility - captain falcon is top three in the game when it comes to fast fall speed. now add to that quick aerials with low landing lag (n-air, u-air) and what do you get? a character that can exploit the holes in charizard's zoning well. you seriously think flamethrower is going to keep cfalcon out the same way it shuts bowser out? not even close. he's just going to jump over the flame and hit you. charizard is pretty blind in front and diagonally up-front of him... flamethrower can cover in front, but requires a commitment that can get you hit against a character like falcon. then, since you can't rely on flamethrower, dash grab approaches and such can work.

how can you say that squirtle juggles falcon easily without acknowledging how falcon juggles charizard? charizard has a slow d-air and poor coverage below him as well. b-reversing to alter momentum is not guaranteed to get you back down by any means... cfalcon has the fall speed to get back to the ground and still punish you for doing those things.

for the record, i would give it only a slight advantage to falcon at best. in any case, i certainly don't really see any reason to charizard an advantage. i guess you could make a case that exploiting falcon's poor recovery pattern might be enough to swing this in charizard's favour, but as far as on-stage fighting goes, charizard definitely needs to respect falcon's movement.
 

CoonTail

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,554
Location
Long Island, NY
Respect his movement......fine especially after you show his clearly top tier movement. The issue I have though is this, none of falcon's aerials cover that much area outside of U-air and on top of that all of the have low priority.

A grounded Zard against an airborn falcon should have no issue gaining a solid prediciton on falcon's attack pattern based on his position in the air. All of falcon's aerials require certain positioning otherwise they aren't safe. I.E. if falcon's slightly above Zard he clearly isn't going to commit to a U-air figuring if I throw out a U-smash to cover above or just shield he will get punished. Same rule applies with N-air and B-air since F-air is an option pretty low on Falcon's option list. Due to this a simple prediciton with a B-reversed flamethrower/ reg flamethrower tilted up means he will get caught in it. Due to his size and weight he is going to eat a rough amount of damage from it unless he DI's out immediately. If a simple prediction will stuff his approach solidly and he is forced to attempt to get Zard in the air......then what is Falcon going to use to get Zard in the air.

I can retract my comment about mobility but I quoted him being at the bottom of the tier list for a reason. Falcon has linear options and poor priority against a character that can exploit poor priority and has a solid zoning game. It's not hard to pick apart falcon especially when he does't have a sinlge move that will go clear through RS like Marth's/Peach's/Diddy's F-air and every single simply predicted move he has can be RSCA'd.
 
Top Bottom