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Dedede Tactical Strategy 20 - IC's Desynchs

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,283
Location
Perth, Australia
Here we discuss how Dedede can deal with many troubling moves and reduce their effectiveness. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread :)

Matchups=/=a scientific method to consistantly win. All matchups are is knowing how to find bad habits, and knowing what your characters best punishments are, how to use them, and how to avoid being punished. If i tell you to wait for a mk's 3rd Dair, that's me saying be patient, look at him, and find out what his habits are first before trying to blatently attack him. See if he likes to commit to dairing, or if he's gona throw in a nado. Im telling you what you can do for both options, and how to handle it, it's up to you (the players) to MIX IN the right options given certain circumstances. I cannot tell you do this, this and this, and you WILL beat this character. I can only give you the tools to to use, its up to you to find out how to best use those tools.


Metaknight :metaknight:


1 - How to beat Mach Tornado


List of Moves that beat the tornado:

Utilt
Dtilt
Dsmash
Bair
Dair
Inhale
Walking away
Pivot Grab (hard to time)
Fair

If he is approaching above the ground angle your shield up to stop from getting shieldstabbed. If he is on killing percents and approaching along the ground DSmash will do the trick otherwise Utilt also works. When using Bair try to fastfall it from above and not just bair at the tornado. Keep in mind the Bair has to hit Metaknight. When you're trapped in the tornado try to smash DI out and airdodge to get out. Also when inhaling try to fall from above. They will sometimes hover at the top of your shield, so make sure to angle it upwards. If they retreat, you can punish it with a dash grab but be careful as they can make it look like they are retreating then come back at you.


4 - How to deal with Shuttle Loop


If you predict Metaknight is going to Up+B shield it then walk forward when he glides at you and attempt to Utilt it. You can also Short hop a Bair in his direction, it comes out fast so he might not expect it. If you're in the air above him, Dair is your best option, and if your on the ground you could wait until he glides at you and then shieldgrab, although beware because they can cancel it into any move on the ground. They usually prefer Down Smash and Tornado. You could also walk away and Ftilt as although he can still glide at you most times Metaknight will be low enough for you to hit with the Ftilt anyway. Another viable option is shield the Glide attack and then full hop Dair out of shield to punish whatever he cancels the attack into. Mix it up to keep him guessing what you're going to do.

This move is really dangerous in the air and it kills really early, so try not to be above him in the air. Airdodge when you predict he's going to Up+B in the air. If he keeps using it to edgeguard you try to Up+B through it, if he uses it against your Up+B you will be sent to the other side of the stage and he will be spiked, although chances are they would be aware of this and wouldn't use it over the edge. Another great option if you have time is to Fsmash as it outranges his glide attack.


13 - How to Deal with Dair Camping

The best we can do is to shield if he's spacing the Dairs well. Angle your shield upwards if he is directly above you and diagonally up if he is diagonally above you. If they tornado, angle your shield up and punish it. Follow them if they run in tornado but beware as they could double back on to you. Don't commit to a Utilt or Aerial as the Metaknight is baiting this and will airdodge through it and punish with a grab. The only possibly safe aerial is a fullhopped Dair. You can also run away a bit and space Fair/Bair to beat him from the side.


13 - How to deal with Metaknight's Spacing Game

if ur having trouble with approaches, IF YOU HAVE THE LEAD

the mk can only do one of 3 or 4 things.

1. Run==>shield grab, hoping to block ur ftilt.

SOLUTION:
Instead of ftilt, read his approach, and simply stay on ur side, then when u think he's gona running shield, u do a dash grab (no shield) and meet him half way. That way your grabbing his approaching shield.

2. Jump in space dairs/fairs

SOLUTION:
for spacy mk's mixup between dash shielding==>grab (if they do recieding fairs), sh bairs or utilts out of shield for spacy dairs, be very patient with this...

like shield 2, even 3 dairs before making a move, if they're too high, try to time a full hop uair or fair after abotu the third or 4th dair, if they land before then, grab/dsmash the landing depending on spacing, only other option is nado which if ur shield is low either roll away or try to utilt it. if ur shield is fine (they did nado before doing 3-4 dairs on ur shield) then just hold shield, try to predict if he's gona stay inside u, OR retreat. if he retreats u can actually time a roll in that direction to move with him, and finish ur roll where he lands, this seems to be the only consistant way to punish retreating nado, if they stayed in ur shield at all, and it avoids the mindgame of -retreat, just kidding hit u while u run-

3. Walk slowly up and space tilts

SOLUTION:

DSMASH-sounds weird but it destroys mk's grounded spacing game once he's passed ur ftilt range. just hold shield accordingly, when he fuks up, give him a swing.
itss sooooo good and soooo big. and hurts, and puts them above u. i <3 dsmash..

4. Dash, jump, nado.

SOLUTION-This one you gota watch out for, as it can shut out like ur other two solutions if u pick wrong. (IE he has a rock that beats ur scissor and lizard, BUT you have this paper) this one will seem the most blatent if u pay attention enough, and aggressive, they will run full speed and jump AT you, not near you. thats ur que to either throw out utilt, try to grab it, OR the safest thing, shield. -----the issue is when they read ur shield, and instead of jump nadoing, they just dash grab ur shield, so watch out for that.

instead of linking specific vids, since i do all these strats often,
i'll link u here instead.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241986

watch the latest vids vs mk to see these strats in action.

Snake :snake:


5 - How to get past Grenades

Stay in the air a lot to avoid getting hit by the grenades, and Fast fall down with a Bair. You could also jump above him and Dair, this will mean he will get hit by a grenade if he's holding one and you won't. It also puts pressure on the higher parts of his shield, although watch out for a shield dropped grenade thrown up or down, an Upsmash or a Utilt. If he drops a grenade, you can Ftilt it from a distance to explode it, which can be a surprise to Snake if he is within range of the grenade. You can also Dtilt him while hes holding a grenade and it won't blow up the grenade.

Watch what the snake is doing from a distance and learn his mindgames. On Halberd, which is one of Snakes favourite counterpicks, he can throw shield-dropped grenades downwards on the slopes and they will go sideways. Dedede also has a short Jump-Cancelled Glide Toss, which can be used to gain a little extra slide when you throw a grenade. Beware that if Snake shield drops a grenade and you are holding one it will fall out of your hands as well, so don't try to throw it back at him or you will just Fsmash while the grenade blows up in your face or he punishes you. Inhale is very risky as if you eat a grenade you will take damage and there will be some lag. Also if there is a grenade in the way of your chaingrabs, use Bthrow for damage or Uthrow to keep him in the air. You could alternatively Dthrow him into the grenade. On stages with platforms, Snake's often put grenades on the platforms to force you to go over them.

Never run at snake because it reduces your grab range. Your standing grab outranges his grenade grab, so if you walk everywhere and shield his grenades you should do alright. Slowly make your way forward. If he pulls a grenade grab him, if he doesn't he will usually Ftilt so shield it and punish. You can grab his boost smash on reaction from the little bit of shieldstun when he hits your shield. There are only 4 things Snake will do once you are close - grenade (into grab), spaced Ftilt, boost smash, or roll behind you. Try to predict his option and punish it.


for camping snakes never run, u run u lose all ur grab range. your standing grab beats his gernade grab, so as long as u walk everywhere, and shield gernades accordingly, if ur not next to him all u have to anticipate is when he will motor slide, which u can grab on reaction. other than that slowly keep stepping foward, step grab when he pulls a nade, or step shield if he doesnt (cuz that means he's gona ftilt instead)

theres only 4 things a snake will ever do to an approaching ddd. Gernade (into grab) spacy ftilts, motor slide, or roll behind u (if u read this its a full stage CG ^_^)


Wario :wario:


12 - How to deal with Bite

This move can easily combo from short hop Nair so rolling away after you get Nair'ed is the best option. Most of the time it is used when falling from the sky onto your shield so don't get predictable with shielding. If he is coming down on you and you don't know whether he is going to Dair or Bite, be safe and roll backwards then Ftilt him. Alternatively you can just walk away a little and punish with a grab or Dtilt after the Bite finishes. It will outlast our spotdodge so don't attempt to spotdodge it. Wario's love to use it to punish spotdodges. Wario swallows Waddle Dees/Doos very fast so using them won't help much. Wario can also suicide with his bite so watch out offstage.


Falco :falco:


7 - How to get past Lasers

The lasers really hurt Dedede because he has the slowest aerial momentum and the third worst run speed. If you have time, mix in air dodges and spot dodges and slowly work your way over there, making sure he dosen't know what you're going to do when you get to him. You can also perfect shield your way through them. Throwing a Waddle Dee/Doo on the stage will block silent lasers and can help clear the way for you. When you get close it becomes a game of prediction, use what you have learned about him during the match. If you think he will jab, shield and grab him, if you think he will grab, spotdodge and grab him. Remember that he can cancel his jab into a grab. Another option is to roll away again when you get close. This covers an IAP to get away, and if he jabs or grabs you can punish with an Ftilt.

Try to bait the IAP, shield it and run and punish him with a dash grab. Dair also beats phantasm. Air camping alot with our ranged Dair and fast Bair are great, and coming down with a inhale is good because if they don't predict it we either take 4% from a jab or no damage from a grab and suck them up. Short hopping an inhale is also a great approach up close as it is usually unexpected
.


Diddy Kong :diddy:


3 - How to deal with Bananas


Diddy will rarely approach without a banana in his hand, so the best thing to do is obviously try to gain control of them and throw them away or use them against him. Dedede's Glide Toss goes a negligible distance, although he has a Jump-Cancelled Glide Toss, although it is very short, so he cannot use them as efficiently as other characters, including Diddy. One way to deal with them if you have one is to throw the banana's behind you. The Diddy Kong will usually try to get to them and you can take advantage of that by grabbing or punishing it. Full hop Dair picks up the banana's and covers the ground which is excellent if you think the Diddy will dash attack to pick one up. If theres a banana on the ground in front of you and you are chaingrabbing, throw him in another direction, preferable Bthrow as it does the most damage.

If you have a banana you could also Z drop it to Fast-Falled Nair. They will mostly be cautious against a DDD because of his grab range so they might glide toss backwards while throwing it forwards. Shield it and you can gain control by Short hopping and Z catching it as they are further away, although the best option is to fullhop Dair OOS. This covers most of diddys basic options after throwing a banana aka dash attack/sideb/grab etc and picks up the banana. Another tactic is when you have a banana, spam waddle dees until they approach, or if they don't, approach with the banana by either throwing it at him or jumping above, throwing it down and then either Fast falling a Bair/Inhale or just fast fall to grab. Platform camping also works as the bananas do minimal damage (3-4%). Try to be in the air as much as possible. Waddle dees and doos on the ground are great as they stop the Diddy from glide tossing the banana at you. If you think their going to try to knock the Waddle Dee away, you can punish them. Don't go for many inhales as if he throws a banana into your mouth there will be punishable lag, and if you get hit don't be predictable in which way you roll/get up.



Marth :marth:

9 -How to deal with Marth's Spacing Game


Wait for the right time to dash in and shieldgrab. This could occur after you shield a laggy untippered move or when he misspaces a move. You can also walk away a little and Ftilt which outranges all of his moves. Sometimes they will retreat with a short hop Nair so don't instantly chase after him, rather shield the Nair, walk forward a bit and Ftilt when he lands. We can't punish a tippered jab or Ftilt unless its perfect shielded but we can punish them if they misspace and it isn't tippered. Bair out of shield works well to get inside his range, as does Dair out of shield for an Nair. Use Dtilt if he lands too close to you.

A good strategy is to Ftilt from range to beat all his ground moves, then turn around and short hop Bair. When you land you have three options; if he is within grab range, grab him, if he is just past that, Dtilt, and if he is further away, Ftilt and repeat the setup. When you have him grabbed, either Dthrow Chaingrab him to the edge and Bthrow for great damage, or you can Dthrow->Ftilt. This lets you go into the strategy suggested above and puts you in a better position then if you chaingrab->Bthrow him, and the damage will rack up fast. Waddle throws aren't good in this matchup because they are easily punishable by Marth's fast running speed and aerial movement.



Mr. Game and Watch :gw:


2 - How to deal with Mr. Game and Watch's Bair

This has insane priority so be careful. Most G&W's will approach with the Bair often. You can shieldgrab it but remember it has 5 hits. Count them out on your shield and then only grab after the 5th hit. This is a common mistake as if you don't count all 5 you will be hit by the last one which will send you away. If you're expecting it, you can retreat a little and Ftilt, or just Dtilt if he only comes at you close to the ground and hasn't spaced it properly. The move does 15% total (which is 3% for each hit).

Another strategy is to Bair the turtle. The moves will clank which results in you taking only 3% (just one hit of the turtle) while he takes the full Bair, around 14%. Try to Bair before he's properly spaced his own Bair. Your Utilt will beat it if its not properly spaced. If you predict him short hopping it, full hop Dair can work, although Fair won't work as its too slow. If your shield is low and your about to run out, it is possible to grab in between hits but dount count on it. The best time to do this is in between the 4th and 5th hits as the 5th hit always comes out a little late. Also remember if he full hops the Bair then you can tilt your shield up to stop it poking your head. If you get caught in it, try to SDI out.



Pikachu :pikachu2:


13 - Approaching Pikachu

Low aerial approaches work great, such as Bair and Dair. Don't go too high or you can get thundered, and also be careful of his stutter stepped Fsmash. If he goes for the thunder, fast fall down out of its range and punish. Another great way of approaching is running and powershielding the thunderjolts, then when you get in range Ftilt.
Get in the practice of powershielding pikachu's neutral B, it is very easy to powershield and you need to know how to do it if you're going to approach. Most pikachus jump when they use this move because of the lag on it. They will then land and try to grab you or hit you with a fair. However, if you space your approach right, you can do one of two things;
A. If the pikachu doesn't know you spaced your approach right, you can powershield their neutral B and grab them right as they land. Lots of your damage should come from grabs and gimping in this matchup.
B. If the pikachu is smart and knows you're trying to space their projectile, they will stop early and space their fairs on you. Play it out like fighting a marth. Throw your SH bairs into the air to stop this approach and ftilts out of shield if they hit you with one. My personal favorite is when the pikachu doesn't space the fair right when trying to go for fair to grab. Free grab for us.

13 - How to deal with Pikachu's Chaingrab

What is on every pikachu's mind when you're below about 50? The grab, that's the only thing they want and it's all they're going to try to do. Much like the Falco matchup what you need to do is platform camp with dairs and dsmashes until you are past chaingrab percents. Smashville is a great stage for this matchup because you can also throw waddle dees. Play as gay as possible, don't give up the grab for any reason. Get as much damage on pikachu as you can before you're finally past chaingrab %. You have 8 minutes, use as much time as you want.
18 - How to deal with Pikachu's Quick Attack Cancel

Pikachus use this attack often so if you know how to beat it it will reduce a lot of their options in certain places, eg. on the ledge. A lot of your moves will hit him out of it if timed right, including Utilt, Dsmash, Dair and Bair. However he can bait these and then punish you for them by delaying his QAC a little bit. If he starts doing this you can shield the whole thing (remember to shield the followup Uair/Nair aswell) and punish with Bair or Fair out of shield. If they manage to get through you they might jump away and thunderjolt which you can't do anything about if their QAC ended far enough away.

Bairing through QAC is really ****ing annoying to try and pull off.

A good pikachu will QAC through you and annoy the **** out of you until they learn that you know how to hit them out of it, then they will only QAC to avoid bad situations.

I always utilt the second I see the pikachu go for a QAC from ledge to stage.

Also you can pivot grab him out of it too.

Olimar :olimar:


6 - How to deal with Pivot Grab

Don't attempt to chase Olimar on the ground because that's just looking for a pivot grab. Sometimes Ftilt will outrange it depending on the colour of pikmin (Blue has the most range). Air camping with Bairs and Dairs works well and you can come down from the air with a Fast-falled Inhale which will beat the pivot grab. Spotdodge a lot up close as it will dodge most moves Olimar can do from that range (Fsmash, grab), then during the cool down lag from his grab, grab him back. Make sure to time your spotdodge well because otherwise he will grab you during the lag afterwards.


10 - How to get kill Pikmin from Pikmin Toss

Percentage damage required to kill pikmin:
White - 4%
Red/Yellow - 9%
Blue - 12%
Purple - 15%

The best methods of getting the Pikmin off you is a few Nair or Bairs. This can help you approach as you get them off you. Uptilt is not a good idea as it stales it and keeps you stationary and neither is Uair as while you are Uairing he can throw more on you, if you short hop it you will suffer lag and if you fullhop it he can come underneath you and Usmash. Never use waddle dees to block pikmin as by the time it takes you to throw a waddle dee he can get 2 or 3 pikmin on to you. Short hop Fair is a great move to get them off you. If you are already close to Olimar, don't bother attempting to get them off. Just do what you were going to do as it will put you in the better position and after a few attacks they will fly off anyway.


10 - How to get past Pikmin Toss

Approaching with inhale is a great idea. If you inhale his second jump then walk off and shoot, he usually can't get back whether you are edge hogging or not. Inhale works so well because they usually Down B for its super armour but inhale goes through it. When they stop using the Down B, go for a Bair. Face backwards so they don't know if you are going to inhale or Bair.


Zero Suit Samus :zerosuitsamus:

17 - How to deal with Armour Piece's


ZSS is very strong with her armour pieces as they cover a lot of her weaknesses, They can be used as a Dair for her and also for pressuring and edgeguarding. Don't throw a waddle on the ground - it may seem like a good idea to block normal forward thrown armour pieces but during the waddles massive lag they can jump and throw a piece to hit you. If they're directly above you, roll away so as to put yourself out of the line of fire from above and from the side. If they are thrown at you while you're in the air, Z catch them and throw them away - ZSS has way more use for them then you do and its too risky to let her regain control of them. Try to camp the ledge with Bairs and Fairs until the pieces are gone. Simply camping the ledge means she can't fthrow them without them going offstage, Dthrowing them from above could work but is really predictable and so you can grab the ledge in time. ZSS will most likely be unpredictable with her armour pieces so be expected for any sort of assault. She has a very long glidetoss and they will usually Dsmash out of a forward glidetoss so beware.


Toon Link :toonlink:


12 - How to get past Toon Link's Projectiles

The best way to get through Toon Links projectiles is to simply powershield your way through the boomerangs and arrows. These are fairly predictable and easy to powershield. However, beware of arrow cancels when he lands (he can do them after a short hop Nair/Fair/Bair/Arrow/Bomb Throw/Pull) and watch out for the boomerang as it comes back to Toon Link. Let bombs hit your shield and attempt to jump and catch them as they fly upwards with either an airdodge, a Z catch, or an aerial (preferably Dair or Bair). Alternatively you can spotdodge it. Zair is a pain and is fairly unpunishable if he uses it close to the ground and it is spaced well as it cancels laglessly on the ground. Grab him if he misspaces it or Ftilt him if he uses it too early.

Ftilt, Jab and Dtilt can cancel out all of Toon Links projectiles but aren't as fast as powershielding. However Bair is a great option in the air if you think he will punish your airdodge. Dair can catch bombs or blow them up without them hitting you. Throwing out waddle dees/doos on the field are great as they will disrupt his projectiles and help clear the way. They are more useful then it looks so getting them on the field is a good idea, but don't throw one if Toon Link is close to you. They are very effective at stopping arrow cancels. Watch out for grabs or Usmashes (at kill percentages) after a canceled Zair. Air camping works fairly well but don't be predictable coming down.



Peach :peach:

14 - Peach's Pressure Game

Most Peach's like to pressure with a mixture of Dairs, Fairs, Turnips and Nairs. This setup however is vunerable to range so Ftilt works great for when she is not floating above you. Ftilt can be punished if they have a turnip by shielding it and glidetossing it into you, even if they are floating they can drop quickly and shield it. When she is floating above you you can Bair her OOS or just meet her in the air with a Bair. Don't use it unless you are fairly sure you're going to hit as she can fall underneath you and Usmash.

If she is spacing her Fairs so that its outranging our Bairs and she's about head height, retreating short hop Fairs work very well because it has great range at that height. These aerials can also catch turnips but these can still be a problem if timed properly. Otherwise just jump over the turnips. Don't bother using waddle dee's as they won't stop peach and she can use the lag to hit you with a turnip, or she can hit the waddles to refresh her moveset. She can also float in close and cross-up an Nair, landing on the other side to make it harder to punish. If your shield is getting badly pressured and she manages to get inside your range, roll away and start the sequence again. Alternatively you can Bair OOS.



Charizard :charizard:

19 - How to deal with Charizard's Rock Smash

Shield it, but beware for all the little shards that may shield poke you. You can punish it with a shieldgrab, Ftilt, or Bair out of shield if you are facing the wrong way. It's relatively slow (24 frame startup) and the whole move lasts just over a second. Watch out for a retreating short hop rock smash, so don't approach senselessly, as the whole thing does over 40 percent. You can only punish a short hop retreating rock smash with Ftilt. Charizards often like to use this to punish approaches as it has a wide hitbox counting all the shards.


Ganondorf :ganondorf:

16 - How to deal with Warlock Punch

Probably the best wall and kill move in the game, Warlock Punch completely turns the matchup around against Dedede. It's pretty much unpunishable.
warlock punch is a *****. i usually just crouch cancel a short hop fast fall air dodge into a taunt-cancelled fsmash (or inhale, depending on your spacing) but it gets really predictable and if they shield it they can punish you with a fully-charged utilt.
We can't even punish it with UpB OOS :(




Applies to all Characters :random:


8 - What Characters will do to you out of a Grab

Metaknight will try to Dthrow chaingrab us so DI away and try to jump or spotdodge when you land. Inhale is another good option if you've got time. Diddy will usually follow up a glidetoss with a grab and will usually Fthrow you offstage. You can tech G&W's Dthrow. Marth can Fthrow CG us for a little while and can get a tippered Fsmash at low percents. Mix up when you get Dthrown by snake, standing up and grabbing is a good option as it can come out before they drop their shield. Pikachu can CG us to ~90%, Falco can CG us to ~50% and spike us, and if Kirby grabs you he can gonzo combo you to around 50%. Ice Climbers can infinite us.

8 - How to Evade Grabs

If you are shielding or standing still and you think they are going to Dash grab or just grab you, Fullhop Dair is a good idea. It can be done OOS and also covers most dash attacks. You can also Double jump it quickly off the ground. Another good option is to dash the other way and pivot grab as it will outrange their grab. Down Tilt is another great move to stop dash grabs as its fast and has good range. You can also walk away a little bit and Dtilt, or Ftilt if you want to be extra safe. This covers many dash attacks as well. Or you can simply roll dodge the other way. Try to bait the grab and Dsmash/Utilt at high percentages.

15 - How to SDI moves


Diddy Kong's Fsmash - Up and away if further away, up and towards if closer to Diddy
Pikachu's Dsmash - Up/Up and Away
Rob's Dsmash - Up
Kirby's Combo's - DI away and jump
Metaknight's Tornado - Up and Airdodge
Snake's Nair - Up and away if further away, up and towards if close to snake
Multihit jabs - Either up and you can fall a bair on them/jump away, or away and buffer a Dtilt
Falco's chaingrab spike - SDI towards the stage and tech
Zelda's Fsmash - Away
Marth's Dancing Blade Down - Up
G&W's Bair - Up and towards, then Bair him.
Lucario's Dair - Away and then Bair him (very hard)
Pit's Fmash - Up and away if further away, up and towards if closer to Pit
Falco's Nair - The way he is not moving (ie. if he is doing a rising Nair, SDI down and vice versa). If he is stationary, any direction will do.

 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
9,316
Utilt
Dtilt
Dsmash
Bair
Dair
Inhale
Walking away

There are tons of threads all over the place that deal with beating MK's Tornado. We really shouldn't have to discuss it.

If other boards jumped off a cliff, would you?
 

cutter

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,316
Location
Getting drilled by AWPers
People still forget that you can also angle your shield to prevent from getting shieldstabbed.

Also, do you expect to keep this going for a while?
 

T3h Albino

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
3,160
Location
Snellville GA
inhale does not work on whorenado....rofl...
yeah you can..lol from above anyway
anyway i usually just angle my shield up and go for the punish with inhale a grab or dash attack since most mk like to spot dodge after a whiffed nado. If i react fast enough i usually utilt them since most mk's arent stupid enough to use a grounded nado *it will get dtilted*.
so yah
 

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,283
Location
Perth, Australia
Well obviously we will be changing so this will cover other moves that haven't been talked about much. Since there has been so much talk about this I'll stop in a few days and we can choose something else :)

What is it best to do if you are trapped inside the tornado?
 

Coney

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
4,160
Location
Rapture Farms
inhale does not work on whorenado....rofl...
Bull.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B5018D15D1C6A4C2

The first two matches are me as DDD against MK. I inhale him so many times it's stupid.

Conversely, I tried bairing him a ton and almost never got away with it. I only succeeded when coming down from above, and even then it was a crap shoot. Any technique to this?

Jupz said:
What is it best to do if you are trapped inside the tornado?
Hope he forgets to do it again.
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
9,316
Conversely, I tried bairing him a ton and almost never got away with it. I only succeeded when coming down from above, and even then it was a crap shoot. Any technique to this?
You answerer your own question: bair has to come down from above to knock him out of tornado.

What is it best to do if you are trapped inside the tornado?
Smash DI out and mash up and airdodge. That's M2K's (really really old) advice.
 

Coney

Smash Master
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You answerer your own question: bair has to come down from above to knock him out of tornado.
Well sure, that's what I was trying but it seemed to not work 100% of the time. Do you have to be directly above him then? The box seems a little weird.
 

Gates

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Well sure, that's what I was trying but it seemed to not work 100% of the time. Do you have to be directly above him then? The box seems a little weird.
I believe the hitbox of the bair has to hit MK himself, so yeah probably.
 

Jupz

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Yeah I've been testing and bair usually works if you get above and fast fall it down. If you just jump and bair at the tornado it usually cancels.

Also, if a MK is approaching across the ground with Mach Tornado at killing percents, is it better to utilit or dmash?
 

Coney

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On the ground? dsmash.

A bit above the ground? utilt.

That's what I'd think anyway, it'd be much easier to time a dsmash intended to hit the ground than an utilt which covers much less distance in front of him.
 

Jupz

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Dedede Tactical Strategy

Metaknight - Mach Tornado

List of Moves that beat the tornado:

Utilt
Dtilt
Dsmash
Bair
Dair
Inhale
Walking away
Pivot Grab (hard to time)

If he is approaching above the ground angle your shield up to stop from getting shieldstabbed. If he is on killing percents and approaching along the ground DSmash will do the trick otherwise Utilt also works. When using Bair try to fastfall it from above and not just bair at the tornado. When you're trapped in the tornado try to smash DI out and airdodge to get out. Also when inhaling try to fall from above.


Ok so for the second week I think we should cover G&W's bair. What do you guys think about that?
 

Commander_Beef

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Ok so for the second week I think we should cover G&W's bair. What do you guys think about that?
Good thinking bro. That's one that should be discussed. But I can't imagine what we could do against that brokenly priority move. . .besides fox-trotting the opposite way or throwing a projectile during G&W's back air animation :(.
 

TheGungnir

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shieldgrab G&W Bair, we have good enough range that he would have to retreat it pretty far to get away from us. If he is too far take a step forward and grab. Also if your expecting the Bair Ftilt has farther reach, and I think Dtilt is a trade hit i think <.> not 100% on that though.
 

sMexy-Blu

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I just shield the whole thing and air dodge the last frames of the tornado then punish with a shieldgrab or Utilt if the MK didn't retreated, if he does I just keep playing normally.

When MK approaches with the tornado while your grounded try to intercept him and hit him with a Dsmash.

------

G&W's Bair hmmm.. this move has a ****load of priority and it also has many hitboxes, a common mistake people do is to shield the whole thing and then at the end they release there shield and they get hit by the last hitbox (the one were G&W is just about to land) but what I do is wait till the G&W finishes his Bair and falls to the ground then I release my shield and try to punish.

This is also G&W's favorite way to approach.

This move does 15% if all the attack hits... so you better SDI out of it if you have the chance.
 

Commander_Beef

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I just shield the whole thing and air dodge the last frames of the tornado then punish with a shieldgrab or Utilt if the MK didn't retreated, if he does I just keep playing normally.

When MK approaches with the tornado while your grounded try to intercept him and hit him with a Dsmash.

------

G&W's Bair hmmm.. this move has a ****load of priority and it also has many hitboxes, a common mistake people do is to shield the whole thing and then at the end they release there shield and they get hit by the last hitbox (the one were G&W is just about to land) but what I do is wait till the G&W finishes his Bair and falls to the ground then I release my shield and try to punish.

This is also G&W's favorite way to approach.

This move does 15% if all the attack hits... so you better SDI out of it if you have the chance.
Yeah for shizzle. . .shield-grab lol. That's logical.
 

Gates

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Dedede's bair also trades with Game & Watch's bair, the end result of which is him taking like 14% while you take 3%.
 

sMexy-Blu

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Fair is slow to use against G&W's Bair son, you need to use stronger artillery.

Utilt > G&W's Bair.
 

sMexy-Blu

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Utilt beats G&W's bair in priority.

It also can hit him if the G&W isn't spacing properly with his Bair.
 

dawall250

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g&w's bair has 5 hits, so count them out if you're shieldgrabbing the entire thing so you don't release the shield too early. i've found that if your shield is too low and if you think you're gonna get hit anyways, it is possible to time the grab well enough to get it inbetween the hits (well if the g&w didn't space the bair well) i've been trying to practice that timing.

on another note, i've had an account here since melee, but really started getting into brawl since now i have time to practice, and ddd's my guy. hopefully i'll be posting more around here, and i plan to learn a good amount =)
 

Gates

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welcome to the Dedede boards dawall. Apparently, we're not friendly.
 

Jupz

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Yeah welcome dawall :)

If you see it coming sometimes you can retreat a little then Ftilt. Remember you can also DI out of it.
 

Commander_Beef

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g&w's bair has 5 hits, so count them out if you're shieldgrabbing the entire thing so you don't release the shield too early. i've found that if your shield is too low and if you think you're gonna get hit anyways, it is possible to time the grab well enough to get it inbetween the hits (well if the g&w didn't space the bair well) i've been trying to practice that timing.

on another note, i've had an account here since melee, but really started getting into brawl since now i have time to practice, and ddd's my guy. hopefully i'll be posting more around here, and i plan to learn a good amount =)
Yeah what is up homie? Welcome. There's like about seven or eight of us that post here regularly, so you don't have to be shy =). BEEF!
 

Jupz

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Ok so I guess thats all for G&W's bair. Next up - Diddy's Bananas!!!

Summary for G&W's Bair.

This has insane priority so be careful. Most G&W's will approach with the Bair often. You can shieldgrab it but remember it has 5 hits. Count them out on your shield and then only grab after the 5th hit. This is a common mistake as if you don't count all 5 you will be hit by the last one which will send you away. If you're expecting it, you can retreat a little and Ftilt, or just Dtilt if he only comes at you close to the ground and hasn't spaced it properly. The move does 15% total (which is 3% for each hit). Another strategy is to Bair the turtle. The moves will clank which results in you taking only 3% (just one hit of the turtle) while he takes the full Bair, around 14%. Utilt will also beat if its not properly spaced. If your shield is low and your about to run out, it is possible to grab in between hits but dount count on it. Also remember if he full hops the Bair then you can tilt your shield up to stop it poking your head. If you get caught in it, try to SDI out.
 

Commander_Beef

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Alright well, Diddy Kong's in general, are afraid most of the time to approach King Dedede without a banana peel in his hand. So if we can- at the start of the match, dash towards and try to airdodge-pick up banana peel when he throws them out.

When we are chain-throwing him, and there's a banana peel on the ground behind Diddy Kong, immediately do another throw (doesn't always have to be back throw).

If you ever have a banana peel in your hand, instead of throwing back at him, try to mindgame him with a "forward smash w/ item" technique--which you can do every time after you do a special attack.---Or another is a: Z-drop to fast-falling neutral air.

I can conclude that the most obvious thing Diddy Kong does when he has a banana peel in his hand is throwing straight at you with a follow-up dash attack. <---So obvious!
 

Jupz

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Against King Dedede they often like to glide toss bananas at you but slide backwards cause they are afraid of our grab. This gives you a little time to gain control of the banana if you shield it.
 

Gates

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I've found that the best way to avoid bananas is to spam Brawl Tactical on how Banana peels are items and using items is cheating and therefore Diddy Kong should be banned.

Failing that, you should platform camp.
 

tocador

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As a diddy main i can say that i HATE wadle dees in my way! Cmon, the bananas stop at them and can really screw and, and dont talk about the wadle doo with that annoying whip! So yeah, camping wadles can somewhat help you from the banarrage.

Other things like people all ready said, try to plataform camp/ go to the air. But you need to keep in mind that we can glide toss up too! So this dosent mean that "Yay air camp = LEET". And keep a eye for a new tech , weak glide toss! In wich we throw nanas a little closer so we can follor up with a "Cartwheelnana", (dash attack with nana in hand), that can mess up your prediction!

Anyway, yeah, watch out for nanas while CG'ing and spam the wadles!
 

Commander_Beef

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As a diddy main i can say that i HATE wadle dees in my way! Cmon, the bananas stop at them and can really screw and, and dont talk about the wadle doo with that annoying whip! So yeah, camping wadles can somewhat help you from the banarrage.

Other things like people all ready said, try to plataform camp/ go to the air. But you need to keep in mind that we can glide toss up too! So this dosent mean that "Yay air camp = LEET". And keep a eye for a new tech , weak glide toss! In wich we throw nanas a little closer so we can follor up with a "Cartwheelnana", (dash attack with nana in hand), that can mess up your prediction!

Anyway, yeah, watch out for nanas while CG'ing and spam the wadles!
lol dude, we won't care if you glide toss up because the peel will do only 3-4 damage, then we'll see an aerial coming afterwards.
And Waddle Doo's attack is not a whip -_-. It's Beam Attack!
You'll just have to deal with the waddles while they are walking you maggot.
 

Coney

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I've found that the best way to avoid bananas is to spam Brawl Tactical on how Banana peels are items and using items is cheating and therefore Diddy Kong should be banned.
Didn't ZSS just discover a ~90% CG on us?

Yeah. Items are banned, so she's out too.




*phew*
 
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