Recently, i decided not to take the samus boards seriously. Mostly because the lack of innovation, theories, and helpful suggestions. But also the negativity and centralization on spam. (Spam threads get more attention then matchup threads....LOL) Anyways, before i officially, give up on the productivity of the samus boards, i decided to make this thread. Hopefully, there is reasonable participation. ENJOY!
Objective:
Just as the title says; Take our Samus to a higher level. And hopefully achieving (or recognizing) her full potential. We'll be be discussing universal techniques, their casual/ situational application, and the best ways to force the opportunity to use them.
Topic #1: Tech Chasing
Since this is the first topic, i will be giving my outline of it. And hopefully, in the future, we can come to such conclusion collaboratively.
Intro to Tech Chasing
Essentially, tech chasing boils down to a more simple definition; reading and punishing. In brawl, there are certain situations that have the opponent grounded, and with you nearby. They have four options to get up with;
Get up attack- Opponent does an attack with a hitbox that usually extends on both sides of them as they rise into a neutral position. Duration of attack has invulnerability frames.
Wake up- Opponent simply gets up. 'Get up' animation has invulnerability frames.
Roll Towards- Opponent rolls toward you. Beginning of roll has invulnerability frames.
Roll Away- Opponent rolls away from you. Beginning of roll has invulnerability frames.
If you PUNISH any one of these movements, you have successfully tech chased an opponent.
Types of Tech Chasing
There are two types of tech chases available. One that i would define as 'blind' chasing, and the other as 'smart' chasing.
Blind Chasing usually has a high reward. It is essentially GUESSING which option your opponent will choose, and punishing accordingly.
Smart chasing is alot more difficult. It is READING your opponents beginning animation, and REACTING accordingly. Now this is very hard to do, and you must have very quick reflexes, but it is highly possible. Smart chasing also includes, reading your opponents previous actions when they were put in the same situation.
Best Ways to Punish with Tech Chasing
If you guessed properly, you will have the opportunity to punish your opponent. SAMUS IS THE BEST TECH CHASER IN THE GAME. So you should always be able to punish your opponent if you put yourself in the right situation.
Safe punishment
By shielding directly beside your grounded opponent, youve covered ALL their options. If they get up attack, you can shield grab them. If they wake up, or roll away, you can simply grab them. If they roll toward you, you can drop shield and f-smash behind you.
an opponent who is on laying on the ground. my personal favorite thing to do when right next to a grounded opponent is to short hop and dair. its fairly punishless seeing as how it auto cancels. plus, their "get up" attack usually covers only the left and right side of them leaving their top defenseless. not to mention that one can often double dair right after the first leading to the good o'l dair to upb combo. its quite flashy indeed.
Dash dance in front of the foe and let them roll or get up attack. In ANY case you can dash dance in whatever direction thay are going and then shield cancel into a smash attack/ or you can do a dash attack/ or you can grab(and be boring)
Risky punishment
These punishments are usually 50/50, and you should only use if you feel, youve really got a GOOD read on your opponents movements. Standing a step away from your grounded opponent, and charging your D-smash will cover the wake up or roll towards you. Just be sure to release as the invulnerability frames are finished.
At the same distance, you can shoot you charged shot and successfully hit them if they do the get up attack or roll away. And if youd like to be extra risky, you can walk in which direction you feel they will roll, and charge your F-smash. And as always, release when the invulnerability frames are gone.
Distant Punishment
Now the biggest reason why samus is the best tech chaser is she can chase from about a z-air length away from her opponent. In short, your fully charged shot can punish a get up attack, a wake up, and a roll away...with almost the same timing. As soon as you see them do anything, you can shoot; it will hit just as any of those are just ending the invulnerability frames they have. Now if you guessed wrong and they roll toward; you can still shoot, miss, and F-smash them. Fairly broken.
Best Ways to Start/Reset Tech Chase
Their are many ways to get your opponent in a position to be tech chased. If you miss a jab from a jab lock set up, you can simply tech chase them. Other than that, a high percentage close range zair, fubbed nair, mid percentage f-tilt, jab, low percentage tipper zair, or a mid percentage half charged shot can all hit your opponent to the ground, or force them to trip. There are no real garunteed ways to start the tech chase (YET!), like ganon and snake have. So it will be purely situational.
To reset a tech chase, is successfully tech chasing and putting them in a position to be tech chased....again! One method, that is extremely risky, is to punish with a short hopped super missile > Dair that would set them on the ground again, and if you wanted to... can set up a jab lock.
Topic #2: SHIELD PRESSURE
In short, shield pressure is attacking a shield WITHOUT being punished for it.
Here are some basics on the mechanics of shields to help out.
THE SHIELD COMPENDIUM!!!
Shield: General - Shielding is the true defence method in the SSB series. It blocks all attacks, but however, is susceptable to grabs. The shield is one one the fastest actions in the game, coming out in 1 frame and only has a cool down of 7 frames (power shielding excluded).
Shield Energy - Your shield maintains energy over time, and is the factor that depends shield size and the resistance of attacks.
Shieldstab - This what happens when you have low shield energy, or you angle you shield in a bad way, and a part is not covering your character. This in part allows the hitbox of an attack to connect and drop the sheld.
Shieldbreak - A term used for when your shield runs out of energy, and basically cracks. Some attacks can cause it to crack regardless. Most shields last for 183 frames (3.05 seconds) without factoring in other major aspects. Shieldbreak stun lasts for 438 frames (7.3 seconds) without mashing, and lasts 282 frames (4.7 seconds) with mashing.
[
Shield Stun - When hit by attacks while shielding, you will lag for a number of frames during which you can't do anything. The number of shield stun lag frames varies depending on which character hit you and with what attack, the lag is not based on who you are. This is different from shield hitstun in that it is the person shielding, not the attacker, that receives the lag.
Shield Hitstun - When you hit a shield with an attack, you will suffer shield hitstun. During these frames, you can't do anything.
Shield Drop Lag - When you drop your shield, you suffer drop lag, which you can't do anything for a few frames.
Powershielding - If you press the shield button all the way down within 8 frames of you being hit, you will block the attack without putting up your shield and be able to retaliate immediately. The computer does this frequently.
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Angling Your Shield: This can be done while shielding by pushing the analog stick in a given direction. The angle of your shield can help you or hurt you. Say said character starts an attack above you, such as Meta Knight's Tornado, which could shieldstab by regular shield. If you angle it up towards the attack, it can survive most of the hits (depending on shield energy). However, with an incorrect or bad angle, attacks may easily shieldstab.
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Out of Shield: Most know it as OoS, and is a very great aspect of Brawl. After an opposing character strikes your shield, or comes close to it, certain characters can instantly use an attack (i.e. Marth and Meta Knight's UpB.) OoS options include:
- - jumping into aerials
- - shield dropping into tilts
- - Usmash directly OoS
- - UpB directly OoS
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Shield Grabbing: Ah, what an excellent technique. By holding your shield button (by default its L/R) and A, you can grab directly out of your shield. It is the safest way to grab, and for some the preferred way to grab an opponent (i.e. DeDeDe's chaingrab).
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Shieldbreaking: This can literally turn the tide of match. One shield breaker at even mid percents = death. If your opponent overshields, pick up on this pattern, and own them. Don't over abuse Brawl's shield mechanic! Great Shield Breakers are:
- - Marth's Shieldbreaker (Neutral B)
- - Snake's Fsmash
- - Donkey Kong's Side B
- - Jigglypuff's Pound (Side B)
- - Mr.Game and Watch's Judgment 3 (Side B)
BTW-Shield stab=shield poke
One things that isnt mentioned is pushback. Which in short, is the amount of knockback the attack has, EVENTHOUGH the opponent is shielding. Its biggest use is to get the opponent OUT of thier grab/OOS attack range. For example; Samus' Dsmash has enough pushback to get falco out of his grab range.
Helpful discussion
hmm...well the obvious pushback is dair. The easiest way to get it to land (in my experience) is after convincing ledge-guarders that they should shield (by way of missiles/fairs etc). The pushback takes most characters too far to shieldgrab you, but close enough that you can dtilt when they try.
breaking/poking through shield= falling u-air to UP+B
I can agree with the Screw Attack. It shreds the shield real quick. As the shield gets smaller, it becomes ineffective. **Just to extend** This is done with an Aerial UpB or a grounded Up B at its peak.
Pros do it all the time...If your shield gets smaller, you should tilt it to protect yourself better. It requires much more skill than just shielding since you have to predict/react to attack
falling u-air ALWAYS works if the foes shield is slightly weakened. Most of the time it pokes and if it doesnt the UP+B will suck them in. its like 90% accurate.
The U-air hitbox, is from her waist to her feet. If it connect, its because the opponent isnt tilting the shield up, and the attack pokes through. It doesnt 'ALWAYS' work, but is quite reliable because of the lack of defensive knowledge of the move.
breaking/poking through shield= falling u-air to UP+B
These attacks will never break a shield, just as clarification. Poking, is the correct term.
as far as shield pressure goes i find the most affective form of it in homing missles. If there on a platform you can missle and immediatley uair. Which will force them to shield and then mostly likley get shield poked by the uair.
Great topic. Haven't seen this mentioned at all: smash missiles do massive shield damage. All these other things being mentioned that are done to weak shields (uair-> dsmash, uair->upB, etc.) work right after 1 smash missile.
All you Olimar haters: standing smash missile will shield poke olimar if he doesn't angle his shield up and his shield is weak (ie, if one smash missile hits his shield the next smash missile should shield poke).
Easy shield pokes vs shields that are not angled up:
Zair on Dedede's weak shield
Zair on Rob's weak shield
I'm sure there are more. Be sure to aim for their head.
I think the d-smash has good knock-back against a shield.
Uair -> dsmash on shields all day
MUST READ
everything can technically "shield poke" - that is, hit the opponent while they are shielding simply because the shield cannot cover all the hits and leaves them exposed in some areas. Fair is decent because it reduces the shield with multiple hits and hopefully hits because of that reduced shield.
Zair can "shield poke" if they angle their shield weirdly or if you hit their head when it's not covered by a reduced shield.
Fully charged blast does tons of stun and shield damage but I'd rather connect with it.
Up B is ridiculously good versus most players because they simply will get hit by it. However, it is very possible to counter.
Falling an uair on somebody is effective only when it actually connects, if it is shielded you can be punished. If you're not being punished, then keep doing it but I'd only use it as a punisher.
It has lame horizontal range so someone can just roll/move horizontally and smash you before you touch the ground and while you're still in uair animation.
Also, up b and all followups after uair; not a true combo, buffer to make it as frame trappy as possible but you can be countered by shines, you can miss the up b if they DI the uair and mash jump away, and etc.
But Up B is a very good move yeah
Also, stop jumping on the stage from ledge with fair. Start just going back to the ledge (most effective if you don't need your up b), plank your way through any (shielding) ledge pressurers.
Topic #3: ReFreshing Moves
it takes 9 of any one move to be full exhausted. By hitting a character or breakable object will refresh your moves.
Some things that refresh moves are:
balloon(smashvill)
blocks(green green/yoshi island pipes)
polls(luigi mansion)
statue(castle siege)
waddle dee/doo(ddd)
Chozo chop(press A while grabing a foe)
Yes, and hitting shields doesn't help.
Zair doesn't refresh your other moves.
Missiles effect both missiles simultaneously.
All forms of charge blast count the same (ie uncharged blasts make your fully charged blast weaker).
Other than that...spam the **** out of your homing missiles / missiles and just keep them stale.
- Any attack that clanks with another attack does not stale.
- Any projectile that clanks with another projectile does not stale.
- Any attack that hits Balloons, walls, breakable surfaces, stale, though refresh other attacks.
- Z-air does not stale, nor does it refresh other attacks.
- If an attack misses, it does not stale.
- If an attack is shielded, it does not stale.
- If an attack is absorbed or reflected, it does not stale.
- If an attack hits a character while he or she still has invincible frames after respawning, that attack does not stale.
So basically, having a "fresh move" means; a move that has not decayed yet. And "ReFreshing" is filling the 9 attack slots up, with different moves so that your move can be fresh again. The importance of this is obviously to keep your kill moves with as much knockback as possible.... which samus desperately needs.
for samus you want to keep you KO moves refreshed. IN general most samus mains use d-tilt and d-smash and f-smash and charge shot for KO. And of course alot fo her other moves are usefull but you dont wanna use them because it will refresh the KO move but not the move you are using right then.
if that was confusing, just do this.
and time you are on a level with BREAKABLE things such as blocks/statues/shy guys/polls/ect. Spam jab cancels or nair or up-smash. These 3 moves are moves you almost never use so who cares if they are getting exhausted by breaking all those breakable items......its freshing the KO moves we NEED.
ALSO
What if your on a level that has NO breakable objects......FD? Spam SPam SPAm SPAM homing missles. Or you can do things that are safe like falling u-air to UP+B. Sure, you may only do 5%(missles) or 13%(falling uair to up+b) but it fills those slots up so that your KO moves get off the list.
also, pummeling refreshes as well. SO if you EVER grab some one. Pummel 2 times(after that u risk them breaking out unless they are abve 100%) and then throw. BOOM! you just filled 3 slots. Easy?
Tapping A repeatedly in a quick manner, after grabbing your opponent, does not act like tapping A repeatedly in a slow manner. If you did nine Chozo Chops on your opponent really quick, the refresh system would not refresh Samus' Charge Shot back to 26%. It has to be done slowly. It's "Tap. Tap. Tap," not "Tap, Tap, Tap." It will refresh, but not fully.
A couple things i can add is that all multi hit moves become harder to SDI out of when theyre decayed. Keep that in mind, especually when it comes to UpB and UpSmash. It will be less damage; but less oppurtunity to SDI out and punish you for it. Its a great trade off.
And just to confirm the Chozo chops are a great way to refresh moves. If the opponent is anywhere above 80%, one grab should always lead to 3 chops and a throw. Which fills 4 slots.
MUST READ POST!
If you go to the utimate samus data base you will find a list of ALL of samus's moves. I also put there damage % when they are refreshed and exhausted. **Carter EDIT**Every time you LAND and attack(f-smash as an example) on an enemy or ballon/block/staue....ect you fill one slot of 9! If you fill the 9 slots with the same move(f-smash), the move will become exhausted and lose ALL properties.
I learned:
When a move is exhausted it will take on four different properties.
a. It will decrease in knock back.
b. It will decrease in power(damage %).
c. It will decrease in hit stun. (Only after decayed past three.)
d. The trajectory of a decayed move changes. (Not true to every move.)
examples:
Lets say i do Fully Refreshed (uncharged) F-smash, i would do 12-13% damage. Every time i use f-smash(assuming i do NOTHING but use f-smash) i lose knock back and damage % with that move. Only after the 3rd consecutive time(and every time after) does my f-smash lose HITSTUN.
1. Fully Refreshed (uncharged) F-smash= 12-13%
2. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back)=12%
3. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back)=10%
4. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=10%
5. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=8%
6. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=8%
7. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=7%
8. F-smash(lose damage % and knock back and hitstun)=7%
9. Fully Exhausted (uncharged) F-smash does about 5-6%
if you want to know EXACTLY how weak a move is (refreshed or not), go to the ultimate samus database. i did EVERY SINGLE move samus has.
oh as a bonus treat, i added a video of what i JUST SAID but this time its with the charge shot. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3JmHLXDhE4
Topic #4: Buffering
IN SHORT (for all you lazy people):
Buffering is inputting a command WHILE your character is still in an animation. The benefit of this would be the command coming out on the first available frame. Or even a step ahead of that; before the first available frame. (someone talk about
IASA frames)
This has been a breakthrough technique for some characters (defensively and offensively), hopefully it can prove to be a useful topic to discuss with samus. Buffering shield dashes let king Dedede CG more characters (samus was one
). Buffering grabs let pikachu make some matchups unwinnable! Buffering UpB lets marth get out of Mach Tornados and Snake's Nair early AND deal damages. Bowser buffering grab releases gave him plenty of garunteed kill options...
One very nifty use of buffering was brought out by Xyro in one of his first posts. Using uair to a buffered up b shield pokes and almost certainly works against larger characters. Another useful thing probably everyone does is buffer a dtilt from a fair. However, that combination should probably be mixed up with jabs to keep from being predictable, because we all know how punishable a shielded dtilt is. Another thing that I know I tend to do is buffer dtilt or jab from a nair. For me, I find nair more useful than fair, because you may also buffer a dsmash which people tend to fall for more often than dtilt.
If you set C-stick to smashes, you can buffer an Up B out of morph ball bomb.
Other cool thing is buffering UP+Bs out of airdodge.
Here's a random video i did with some of the things you can do with buffering out of jab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQb7_1E4H8g
I find the most useful is the parts to be around the 0:24, and 1:06 mark. Fading back and Fsmashing has reduced the amount i get shield by ALOT! Some of the other things could prove to have uses as well.
UpB can be buffered out of snake's Jab to Ftilt, Falco's jab to grab (most jab to grabs for that matter), and MKs Dash attack to Nair. All because they lift samus JUST off the ground, and if buffered, the UpB will come out just as samus is about to touch the ground.
MUST READ POST
I don't think the forum has a buffering guide yet, which is a shame, because buffering affects gameplay on a fundamental level - the way we're allowed to give our characters inputs. In light of that, I decided to do research on Brawl's buffering system and put a guide together.
What IS buffering?
Buffering is a feature found in many fighting games. It allows you to enter a command before your character is done with its current action (within a certain time frame, of course,) and the command will execute as soon as your character can perform that action. In other words, it lets you enter commands early. Now that you know what buffering is, let's take a look at how Brawl handles buffering.
General Rules
- The game will retain inputs for slightly more than 1/5th of a second (~13 frames). I tested this in Training Mode, by setting the speed to 1/4 timing how late I can buffer a move with a stopwatch (and obviously, dividing that time by 4.)
- Inputs are handled in the same order they're received. For example, if you're landing from an air dodge and input {Y, Y, Forward + A} shortly before you land, your character will jump, then immediately double jump, and immediately start a forward air.
Buffering on the ground
- If you're holding Back, Forward, Down, or Shield at the time that your character becomes able to act, it'll simply start to walk, crouch, or put up its shield and "forget" to do any action you might've buffered. So if you plan on buffering a Forward Smash or Down Smash using the Analog Stick, don't forget to return it to its initial position. Unfortunately, this also means that buffering a dash is a pain in the *** - you have to buffer the dash, return the stick to neutral, and then hold forward after your character's dash comes out if you want to continue running.
- The above rule has a minor exception - if you buffer a move after a Down Tilt, holding down won't cancel the buffer because your character is already crouching anyways.
Buffering in the air
- There are no commands that'll cancel buffering while in the air.
- Like in Melee, you can buffer a mid-air jump or a Meteor Cancel while stunned. (Careful, though, hitting the Jump button too early will prevent you from Meteor Canceling with the Jump button. However, there's no penalty for using the analog stick.)
- You can't buffer early air dodges, aerials, or Z Button tethers while stunned from an attack.
- Landing during an air dodge has the same lag as landing normally, so you can air dodge before you land to buffer your next move without doing any aerials.
Buffering while in Shield Hit Lag
- You can't buffer rolls during hit lag; the game just interprets it as Smash DI. Can't buffer sidesteps either. You have to wait for hit lag to be over and buffer them during shield stun instead.
NOTE: Buffering while in shield hit lag is a little bit weird...the game seems to handle it differently when an attack has a very large amount of Hit Lag. I've noticed that the game will retain inputs made during the hit lag from shielding far longer than the usual time frame (for example, inputting a shieldgrab while shielding the Halberd's beam, or while shielding two of Samus's Charge Shots back to back.) Putting two and two together, maybe the game handles the commands differently because you're inputting them outside the time frame for "real" buffering? In any case...
- If the attack has a very large amount of hit lag (e.g. Samus's fully charged Charge Shot, Dedede's F-Smash), only Jump and Shieldgrab inputs can be buffered. If a Shieldgrab is buffered, it always takes precedence over jumping, even if you input the jump first. To buffer other actions, you have to wait until hit lag is over and your character enters the shield stun + knockback phase.
- If the attack has "normal" amounts of hit lag (i.e. most attacks would fall into this category), buffering seems to behave as it normally would.
Buffering while in Shield Stun
- Unlike buffering during hit lag, I didn't find any quirks in the buffering system in this phase.
- If you aren't holding the shield button when your character comes out of stun, any buffered commands will be forgotten and your character will simply drop its shield. (You can, however, buffer a move during those few frames of lag you get from dropping your shield.) You can also override buffered commands with a roll or sidestep as soon as your character becomes unstunned, but the timing makes it impractical.
Examples/Applications
- Buffering an attack during the landing lag of an aerial.
- Buffering an attack during the lag time from dropping your shield.
- Buffering JC'd Up Smashes, Up Bs, or aerials out of the shield.
- Buffering dash-grabs during Dedede's chaingrab.
- Buffering shines during Fox's reflector semi-infinite wall combos for greater precision.
- Buffering a shine when performing "jump-canceled" shines with Fox.
- Buffering the next attack in a combo (e.g. buffering an up-tilt after Fox's d-air, or an up-tilt after ZSS's dash attack.)
- Buffering a Dash Attack and Up Smash while your character is lagging from something else to perform Smash Boosting easily.
- Buffering an Air Dodge during the start-up frames of your ground jump to air dodge immediately.
Topic #5: The Zones
A "Zone" was introduced by an ex-melee samus main named HugS on Allisbrawl. The post can be viewed here.
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108
HugS said:
What's A Zone?
"Here I am, trying to explore the deeper aspects of smashing that go beyond hitting your opponent and letting them die off the stage. Here, I will attempt to help you all acknowledge and understand the meaning of "Zones" in smash, and how you can exploit them, in either game. However, for the purpose of this Blog, I will be using mainly Brawl examples.
In melee, I would refer to a thing called the "shiek zone". It was this triangle formation that Shiek created when she jumped in the air and needled. You could either be outside her zone, or directly under. Anything in between would lead to her doing some real damage. So I got to thinking...
I was recently speaking to DEHF about my theory on zones. I said to him "I need to find falco's 'zone'". He asked what I meant, and I explained.
So that begs the question. What is a Zone?
A zone can be good, bad, or neutral, and depends on many variables. A zone in this blog isn't so much a metaphorical sense of doing well: like feeling you are "In the zone". I don't mean it that way. I actually mean it in a spacial way; literally the space you occupy with your character. These zones vary greatly between characters, so I couldn't possibly go into each one without going into extreme detail. But I will use some examples.
So firstly, what is a Zone?
For the purposes of this explanation, I will always be using ROB, and my opponents' characters will vary depending on the example I want to use.
There are three types of zones.
Your Neutral zone
Your Bad Zone
Your Good zone
The neutral zone is just the space you occupy when nothing bad, nor good, can happen to you or your opponent.
Example: Vs Falco my neutral zone would be the ledge. Falco can hardly do a thing to me while I'm on the ledge, and I can hardly do a thing to him if he's on the opposite side of Battlefield, on a platform. We are said to be in our neutral zones.
The purpose for occupying a neutral zone is to recharge your shield, charge a DK punch, charge Samus's blast, etc. To place yourself into your neutral zone is to move into a place where you cannot be harmed at the expense of not being able to harm your opponent.
The Bad Zone. This is relative to the person playing. Since I am writing this, I am referring to my own bad zones as ROB. So vs Falco again, there are several bad zones. Directly in front of Falco is a bad zone as I could get ***** by lasers. About 45 degrees directly above falco is another bad zone. My aerials would not stop his nairs or uair attempts.
Note: being in a bad zone does not mean you are screwed, it just means you will have a hard time capitalizing on anything while in this zone. You have a high likelihood of not being successful in most attempts made in this zone.
The purpose for occupying your bad zones is to get *****. So what I'm saying is, learn your bad zones, and stay away from them. Be in your good zones.
The Good Zone - Like the Bad Zone, being in a good zone doesn't necessarily mean you are untouchable. It just means you are at an advantage, relative to the match at hand. A good zone is obviously being in a spot where you have an advantage over your opponent, in spacial terms.
I recently discovered a good zone in one of my hardest match ups, and it has improved my game in that match up like you wouldn't believe. I realized that my bad zone vs DDD was the center of the stage, the middle 33%. If I was anywhere in that 33%, I left myself open to a chain grab. If I was in the right or left 33%, i had to make sure that DDD was in the middle 33%, and that I was closest to the ledge. This assures that if I did get chaingrabbed, I would only receive 1-2 grabs max. By understanding my good zones, and bad zones, I managed to employ insane amounts of stage control in the match up. I REFUSED to land anywhere in that middle 33% when the DDD was even remotely on ground defense.
I would see him in his good zone and I would say to myself "Don't fight it, he already won, retreat". You see how this knowledge works?
So how do you find your zones?
Well, that comes with experience and practice. Some zones are not so apparent.
For example, vs Falco again, I said that being anywhere in front of him is a bad zone. However, being just slightly outside of his dash attack range can be turned into a good zone. You still get rocked by lasers (bad zone initially), but, it's the only zone where you can capitalize on an illusion. If he does illusion, he just put himself into his bad zone, and you can roll back and effectively put the falco into your good zone (Dsmash, grab, you name it). If you did not space properly, and he is not vulnerable, then you are both in your neutral zones after his illusion, and approaching after the opening wasn't created will then put you in your Bad zone. Do you see how this works?
Finding your zone is a process of movements, calibration, and internalization. You must move around the stage, calibrate how it works, then internalize it. You must internalize your zones. Many people neglect to understand this. They are too busy worrying about techs, landing hits, and fighting their opponents. That is, they lack an understanding of how vital it is to know precisely where you and your opponent are standing. And not just WHERE they are standing, but what it actually MEANS.
People have made claims as to how good my spacing is. And I'm not going to lie, it's fantastic. However, spacing is just a tool that aids me in what I'm really doing.
I'm constantly trying to put myself in my good zone, and making sure you remain in your bad zone. That's what proper zoning is all about. Zoning is the big picture, spacing is just your little pal that helps you take advantage of it.
I hope you guys can implement this form of thought into your game. Perhaps you can all understand that this game can be played without camping. You don't need to be as far away from your opponent at all times.
You can be hard to hit while being only inches away. Think about it, understand it, apply it.
And to those who think this is obvious, maybe you'll reread this the next time you play someone and think "****, this guy is so hard to hit"
Helpful discussion
Good zoning against MK would be out of his dash attack range and below him if he is on a platform or in the air. Neutral zoning would be in front of him, but just out of reach from his ftilt and UpB, and on the ledge. Bad zoning would be above him and offstage with him.
Being above generally seems like a bad zone to be for Samus. It's probably obvious, but I sometimes still fight it when coming down after being knocked vertically. I think it's because I don't like retreating to the edge so much.
on The Topic Of Zones, I Like To Think Of Them In Terms Of The Squares Threatened By A Dnd Character. It's All About Avoiding An Attack Of Opportunity (especially True Of The Marth And Snake Matchups).
Well, in my experience against King Dedede, you want to have a stage with platforms. If there are platforms, King Dedede will generally have a more difficult time grabbing you. Since it's Samus, that's usually the first thing that comes to mind when a King Dedede learns that he or she is going to be fighting a Samus main. If you get too close, he'll chain-grab you. Try to find the best range by checking the distance his Inhale covers, as well as the range his f-tilt has. That should be your best option. It will have to be observed by the eye during a match, but if you familiarize yourself with this, it should help. **Carter edit**
I don't think that just outside her jab range is a bad zone for Samus in most matchups. Samus would still have both missiles, charge shot, Dtilt/Ftilt (as pointed out by carter) and retreating aerials. There are cases where this is exactly where I'd want to be.
zones Vs olimar Is Tricky Business. They constantly Change Depending On The Circumstances At That Given Time. For Example, On A Platform Above Olimar Is A Terrible Place To Be. Drop Through [insertaerialhere] Will Not Stop Olimar's Uair Or Usmash, And Airdodge Will Give You Too Much Lag To Counterattack Him. However, If Olimar Is Just Landing From An Aerial, Or just Finishing Some Other Action, Samus Would Be Relatively Safe Here. Samus Can Use Her "bad" Zoning To Lure Olimar Into Leaving The Ground. A Well-placed Shield Will Quickly Turn The Tables On An Airborn Olimar. Even If He Usmashes, You Diminished The Usmash And Get A Risk-free Retreat. If You Slid Off The Platform Then Even Better, You Can Fast-fall Into Him With An Aerial And Score Some Damage. Just One Example. Olimar Has Many Variable Zones Specific To The Samus Matchup.
i Noticed This When Fighting Against marth. If I Tried To Move Into One Of Marth's Hot Zones With, Say, Ground-canceled Uair Or Running Attack, I Would Get Counter-attacked. Also, If I Ever Tried To Mix-up With An Airdodge Through Him Or A Grab (respectively) Instead, I'd Get Punished Almost Every Time. I Decided That The Reason Is Because I Moved Into His Influenced Squares, So To Speak.
the Option That I Used Was A Moot Point. I Was Getting Attacked Because My Action Was Placing Me Inside His Influenced Squares. So If I Intersected Him With Any Aerial, I Would Be Punished. If I Spot-dodged, I Would Be Punished. When Trying To Get Back To The Ground, I Would Airdodge Passed The Attack Marth Executed. But That Airdodge Would Land Me Within His Sword Range And I Would Subsequently Be Punished. Etc. I Needed To Find A Safer Option.
however, If Marth Is Currently Using One Of His Options, He Is Only Doing So By Introducing At Least One Square Of Non-influence, So To Speak. A Fair From Marth Means That I Can Hit Him With A Shed Aerial. Overb Means That I Get A Free Rising Grapple (if It Was On My Shield) Or Ground-canceled Grapple (if He Punished Incorrectly). I Was No Longer "allowed" To Land Or Edge-hop To The Stage If It Meant That I Would Be Entering His Little Bubble Of Affected Space.
i Found All Of This To Be Very Similar To Attacks Of Opportunity. And With Samus' Many Medium-ranged Options, She Has The Tools To Create Windows For Her Attacks (unlike Kirby, For Example, Who Must Rely On His Small Stature And Spacing To Find Them). Now, I Focus On Keeping My Options Open And Watching How Marth Uses His More Carefully. It's A Much Safer And More Effective Way Of Playing The Matchup.
zoning With Samus Is A Matter Of Control, Or Rather Her Dominion. For Example, Take A Chessboard Out. The Ultimate Goal Would Be To Threaten And Trap The King. We Can Translate This To Knocking The Opponent Off The Stage. However, The Secondary Goal Would Be To Take As Many Pieces Of The Opponent's As Possible Without Losing Your Own To Make The Primary Goal Easier. We Can Translate This Into Samus Damaging The Opponent Without Taking Damage . And In Order To Do This, Control Must Be Established. And One Of The Early Rules Of Chess Is To Control The Center (ironically, This Is A Rule In Smash As Well.)
control Can Be Established Two Ways: A) Actual Presence Of The Area Or B) Exercising Sovereignty By Having A Pre-determined Answer To Anything That Enters That Dominion. Let's Use Bf As Our Chess Board (arguably Samus's Best Stage And I Will Explain Why Soon.)
Samus Can Establish Control With Option A With Her Usage Of Z-air As A Vanguard And Push Her Way To The Center. Or, The More Popular Option B, Establish Control With Projectiles. You Could View Her Usage Of Z-air And Super Missile As A Rook, Creating A Threat Horizontally. More Importantly However, You Can View Her Usage Of Her Homing Missile/z-air As A Rook And Bishop, Creating A Threat Horizontally And Diagonally. Again, Looking At A Chess Board, This Means If Samus Were Placed At B4/b5 On Say Bf, She Establishes Control Over The Entire 4/5 Row And Control Over The Upper Diagonal.
Why Is This Important? Because Through This Analogy, It Can Be Concluded That Samus’s Best Zones Are In Fact Created Through An Opponent's Diagonal Approaches. When Opponents Attempt To Go Through Her Projectiles, They Will Either Go Straight Through Air Dodging/shield Dashing Which Then Is Up To The Samus Player To Be Read And Punish With The Proper Tools (grab/pivot Grab/backwards Shz-air/f-air Or Simply Retreat With Bomb)… Or Jump And Approach Diagonally. On Stages Such As Sv And Fd, This Can Somtimes Be Problem.
Why Is It Not A Problem On Bf? Because Platforms Get In The Way, Which Later Opens Windows To U-air, U-tilt And F-air, That Platform Protection Makes All The Difference. Notice How All Her Combo Starters Intiate From N/ne/nw (depending On Which Way You're Facing) And End Either N To S. Meanwhile, Most Characters Aerials D-airs Never Hit Diagonally (sw/se). Essentially, This Is What It Looks Like:
(c1) (c2) (c3)
(s) (xx) (c4)
This Is Samus's Dominion. C4 Can Be Controlled Easily, But Any Projectiles Beyond C4 Can Be Dodged/shielded And Just Plain Avoided. C3 Can Still Be Controlled Via Sh-homing And Z-air. C1 Can Be Controlled With Screw Attack. Finally, C2 Can Somewhat Be Controlled With All Aerials And Projectiles (minus D-air). Samus Dominates Even Better In The C2 Region When There's A Platform Protecting Her.
it Is The Xx Region Where Samus Is Weakest. This Is Because Of Her Natural Weakness In Short-range Fighting As Well As The Natural Strengths Of Her Common Opponents: D3's Chain Grab, Mk's Dashes And Sh-aerials (where They're Not Quite High Enough To Be In The C2 Region Yet Make The Exception With A Long Diagonal Hitbox To His D-air) And Falco's Boxing Game. Notice Also How Marth Will Be Trouble At Times Because Marth Lies Both Within The C4 Region And The Xx Region, His Sword Still Being Able To Reach You Even When Your Ground Attacks Cannot.
Also Notice How When Samus Players Do Not Play On Bf Or Platform Stages In General, Their Lack Of Control Over The C2 Region Furthermore Allows Opponents To Access The Xx Region. And From There, Your Options Become Severely Limited.
Now That We've Analyze The Proper Zones For Samus (this Can And Should Be Applied Against All Characters,) Spacing Is The Next Issue. As Samus, You Must Essentially Space Yourself So Your Opponent Stays Either Outside This Box Or Within Your Dominion. Not Within (xx.)
Doing This Will Make Or Break Your Game.
That's As Far As Zoning Goes. If You Want To Discuss What To Do In Region Xx, A.k.a. Samus's Options When In Short Range, That Should Be Discussed Separately. As For When Samus Is Above The Opponent, The Objective Should Be To Land Asap. The Only Exception Would Be If There Were (oh How Ironic) A Platform. Then Your Options Differ.
As We All Know, Zoning Also Pre-determines The Efficiency Of Characters In Certain Stages. with The Zones For Samus Established Earlier, The Best Neutrals Would Have To Be Bf And Lylat. Lylat, While Not Always Having A Straight Horizontal Terrain, Nonetheless Gives Samus Exactly What She Needs To Zone Properly. Fd, While Being Straight And Clear, Gives Too Many Opponents Easy Outs To Her Projectile Game. Sv Is Similar... And Yoshi's, While Having A Platform... Also Has A Horrible Horizontal Terrain With A Horrible Tilting Platform On Top Of That.
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Samus' weakest zone imo is directly below her while in the air due to her lack of ability to produce fast / high priority hitboxes below her. Yes, her dair spikes and is awesome when it lands but it works more as a tool when you have control, not when you're trying to protect yourself / regain control.
A little theory I have regarding this weakness: you should not jump if your opponent is fast enough or close enough to close the gap before you can protect yourself. Initially, this distance was larger in my opinion until I used retreating fairs to protect against rushing opponents.
Samus' strongest zones are: large horizontal distance, being grounded vs an opponent on an adjacent platform, and opponent directly above Samus. These are not necessarily the best zones / situations in all matchups but in general they are favorable.
Large Horizontal Distance:
Pretty obvious, you can spam your projectiles to do damage. You won't be killing but you can frustrate your opponent which can lead to some poorly prepared approaches on their part.
Some characters to not go large horizontal vs: Falco, Fox (laser spam + reflectors)
Opponent on Platform:
Samus' multi-hit aerials work really nicely on platforms. If the opponent is shielding you can get some nice shield-stab action. Uptilt and up-angled ftilt hit through platforms too. Bair is very easy to sweet-spot against opponents on platforms. Pushing shielding opponents can cause them to tumble which can lead to jab-locks and other setups.
Some characters to not mess with on platforms: MK, Lucario. MK is just an *******. Lucario's dair goes through everything.
Opponent Above You:
Samus' uair and (grounded) upB are sweet. They both come out fast. Uair has some of the best priority Samus can put out (teehee), can lead to "combos", ends quick enough for you to be able to attempt a followup. UpB comes out very fast and if grounded is very difficult to SDI out of. Depending on how aggressive your opponent is, you can sometimes lure them into a second upB. They try to punish Samus' landing lag but typically are not fast enough to get there in time.
Topic #6: Melee Combat
Helpful discussion
but we should grab more if the opponent shields a lot... you could try shield pressure instead I guess.
also, the range of the grab is what we should abuse. dash attack/dash grab/dash shield mixups ;]
shield is still the most powerful thing in Brawl. it still nets counter dsmashes.
jumping too much is mathematically bad since you relinquish shielding so... you can get hit more easily.
I'm not downplaying the usefulness of zair and missiles at range, but aerials are just weaker in this game than melee. Metaknight is the largest exception because he can harass the shield while constantly jumping away so as to avoid getting punished out of shield with those constant rising dairs, otherwise, most people land after doing an aerial and get punished.
I find that shield dashing Greatly improves samus' Close range game. like hugely buffed.
the only Shield grab samus actually has is when you do not perfect shield a smash.
you get sent back but the range of your grab will get them on all chars from when i've tried it.
Shield grab vs MK's rising fair on your shield is guaranteed. Mostly poorly spaced aerials since you can buffer the grab to come out before they land, it grabs them as they land.
I can't think of too many moves off hand but Samus' dtilt is a guaranteed shield grab.
yo seriously I'm not patient enough to set up projectile/zair traps so I run around like a maniac with shield dashes and empty sh flips and stuff until I see an opening.
My favorite thing to do when running is either dash attack, shield cancel, or pivot grab.
Iono, I just like dash attacking someone to jab cancels to fsmash, then running at them again, only to have them shield, thinking I'll dash attack to give them a free shield grab.. then just run past them and pivot grab.
I wish I could contribute more to this but I really don't know how to describe how to fight up close.. but basically, stay highly agile and mobile until you see openings... I guess sorta like CF camping dash dance in Melee til the opponent messes up and then you can nair/grab and follow up. :\
Some options for melee combat...
Shielding obviously. Use it to predict and punish. When shield grab isn't guaranteed (you should be able to measure this in a second whether or not a shield grab can land) f-tilt works. D-smash is an iffy Oos option: long range but expect to get punished if they perfect shield it.
As for approaching (because camping isn't the only thing Samus can do,) dash attack and dash grab/pivot grab works well on the ground.
Aerial option include b-air to u-air ---> u-tilt/u-smash/f-smash/jab combo (the final option will depend on how both you and he land.) Or, b-air to n-air, followed up again with many options. YES, YOU CAN PERFORM THESE AERIALS IN ONE SHORT HOP. Therefore, rather than attempt a sh ff u-air (therefore approaching from diagonally where they can f-air you,) it'd be safer to attempt a b-air followed by an u-air (or n-air. Again, it will depend on where you land after the b-air: in front of them or behind them. If behind them, may want to try a n-air as it'll auto-cancel and you can follow up easily.)
For spacing options, Samus has good aerial options as well. A backwards sh z-air or f-air works well (depending on the size of the opponent, you may want to make the hop for the f-air higher to avoid punishment. D3 comes to mind. You can have the last hit of f-airs hitbox touch D3 without getting grabbed.) Retreating into a pivot grab can work at times too, although use this on occasion.
On a side note, because Samus's backwards sh is a somersault animation, this can easily be used as a mind game. You can sh backwards and DI right into a f-air, z-air or n-air or be aggressive and auto-rar into the combos stated above.
Overall, if you're going to have do deal with the enemy up close, make sure you space yourself correctly so you're away from a possible grab. I cannot stress how important that is. With such spacing, shield becomes a powerful tool and that mid-range distance is where you can still excel with Samus's long hitboxes. If you do happen to get too close, I would seriously recommend just retreating asap (even if it means rolling away. -gasp-)
EDIT: I'd like to mention nearly all of Samus's aerial options become less effective or simply null and void (NOID XD) against short characters. Retreating f-air becomes more punishable and you won't have enough time to input both a b-air and u-air/n-air when approaching. But, short characters have short grab ranges as well, so use to your advantage.
For example, against MK, space yourself far enough from a grab but close enough for a his f-tilt and sh f-air (both of which you can punish.) Watch out for his d-tilt and don't forget to use yours. (Worry less about refreshing and more about not getting tripped into a grab by MK.)
For up-close fighting I usually like Ftilt, Dsmash, Uair and Fair. Ftilt has more range than most opponents expect. It's a relatively quick option that allows you to punish OoS quite reliably and resets your spacing pretty nicely. Dsmash has a hitbox behind Samus. I find that plenty of players seem to think that this is a bad place for Samus and I try to use this to my advantage for some nice punishment. Also, for characters like Marth/Snake with linear recovery, you get those guaranteed two frames of landing lag to hit with a lingering attack such as grab/Dsmash/homing missile/uncharged B. It's a positive for Samus in the end. Uair and Fair are pretty self-explanatory. Both have lingering hitboxes which makes them difficult to powershield. Both also cancel nicely for damage/kill setups.
I'm not convinced that short characters have short grab ranges. I don't know the specifics, but Jiggs and Kirby in particular seem to be able to grab many things that most other characters cannot. Whatever their actual grab range is, their "effective grab range" is great enough to make the statement somewhat inaccurate. Then there's characters like MK who can dash grab so effectively that this matchup is really uneffected by their short grab range. Another note on short characters...SH retreating Dair has a hitbox that covers basically their entire body beneath Samus. Most won't rush into that which allows you to create a bit of breathing room. Obviously this shouldn't be used as your only option, but it's good to use to keep your opponent guessing. It's also good for characters who like to roll behind Samus while boxing because you end up on the ground behind them (a bad zone for quite a number of boxers).
I think it's good to throw in some bombs from time to time. They help with spacing, mindgames, and are good for setting up other moves. Bomb > Grab, F-smash, Jab, etc. My own most used Melee move is probably D-air.
Bombs are fun. People don't know what they do and decide that their safe holding their shield. So I grab them. Next, they usually try rushing me. That's when I SH retreating Dair to catch their attempt off-guard. I suppose pivot grabbing would work, but I don't like it for two reasons. Grab is riskier to attempt because it only works on grounded opponents. The Dair also has better follow-ups than grab in most cases (not on Wario ^^ ).
One OoS option ive been testing out lately is Shorthopped Bomb. Jumping out of shield and immediately dropping a bomb and fading backwards. If you can cancel the landing lag by holding down, you can quickly do any smash or d-tilt. I usually do with against opponent that like to approach with shield dashing. They'd usually dash into the bombs hitbox (which has good shield stun and eats up alot of shield) and id be able to poke threw thier shield as a result.
Its a good mixup because, rolling backwards or SH Air Dodge>Zair while fading back can become predictable and punishable.
I did this really cool/neat thing yesterday. I ran at someone and did a dash attack, they put up their shield to shield grab me, but I did the dash attack with C stick down, and as Dryn would say, i did it "late", thus I knocked them off the stage, however the neat thing was because i used c stick Down, I buffered a spike as I fell off the ledge too. I have done this twice more and I think it will always hit.
I just want to add that against aggressive characters/players, a good way to think about it is to watch their approach, and time your spacing maneuver/counterattack so that when their approach ends, they are still out of grab range, or at least are in a position where they have to defend rather than attack.
For example, mario (my best-known matchup) approaches with a short-hop. He's got a lot of options on approach, he can fireball, cape, nair, dair, bair, uair, air-dodge. If you block his attack he will end up at your feet and you can't do much at all, especially if he is wary of upBOoSy. If he air-dodges, you are in an even worse position. So your response should come *when he approaches*, rather than when he has already approached. Either SHnair/uair to counter attack, or dash/walk/sh backwards so that you have the frame advantage when mario gets where he's aimed.
I know a situation/setup that works well on wifi and occasionally offline that could lead to your melee kills. If the opponent likes to jump back onto the stage, is close to the ledge, or assumes they will get back on the ledge, jab them. Most people dont have the reaction speed to deal with this (good players will make sure not to die from this) but after that jab cancel you run off the ledge straight into a dair. One that is almost guaranteed though is jab canceling, then running off into an uair. If they used their other jump in panic, you have the advantage and can follow them down with missles, zair, and nair to keep them off the stage.
Small characters who are hard to hit? Stay gounded. If Samus is limited to her melee game, controlling the ground is everything. Make good use of her tilts to keep them out of striking distance. Samus has much range on her tilts, outranging many of the small characters. It seems to me that an aerial by Samus is only useful if the opponent is being defensive and grounded, or aggressive and aerial. That means only jump when a small aggressive child jumps at you.
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How many grabs you get can REALLY change certain matchups. And with the slowness of samus' pivot grab/standing grab, you should primarily be using the running grab. Although there are many ways to mindgame your opponent into getting grabbed. My personal favorite vs a opponent who like to shield dash (typically snakes/ikes) is charge your beam as they approach you. As soon as they get close they'll usually shield, thats when you should press Z. You'll immediately go from charging to grabbing; it works relatively well.
Once youve grabbed them, there are no garunteed followups, BUT good choices. At lowest percentages against heavies, you should down throw. The likely result is them airdodging afterwards; you should read and punish this. At high percentages, theres no relieable way to kill with the grab, so use the Up Throw (strongest throw) to rack up damage, and buy yourself time to charge your shot. From around 75% + one up throw can buy you enough time to charge a full beam.
Samus can usually outrange characters with her tilts, so against the characters that play aggressively you can keep them at bay fairly easily. Her F-tilt actually has REALLY good reach, use that as a primary move against characters with shorter reaches. Against characters with high priority, short reaches (pikachu, toon link) you should use dtilt to keep them at bay, because the f-tilt will usually just trade. Against characters that like spamming aerials (mario, luigi, jiggly) you should try U-tilting, or an up-angled F-tilt. They both have really good range and if timed properly can REALLY be a savior for those matchups. Not to mention, the U-tilt has IASA frames, meaning if you miss, you can follow up/protect yourself VERY easily.
For characters that flat out OUT RANGE/ Out prioritize all your melee attacks; you STILL have options. You should be learning to shield dash instead their comfort zone! Once inside, you should be learning to punish out of your shield ANY opportunity you get. You have MANY options out of shield. First, recognize that all samus' smashes, although cause poor knock back, are fairly quick and take off a good %. Shield dropping and d/f smashing can punish ALOT of moves. Down smashing after a shield drop would be 11 frames until it hits, and 12 for a Fsmash! To put that into perspective; one of the "harder" moves to punish is MK's downsmash... which has 13 frames of lag after it hits!
On of the more common ways to punish out of shield when close to an opponent, is UpB out of shield. Which you'll learn can be one of the worst options. Id suggest only using it after whiffed aerial directly about you (mk dair), or on a multihit move that can shield poke your shield (fox's dair). A RARELY used out of shield option is UpSmash. Works the same way as upB. Its actually a really good OoS option against taller characters! Its FIRST hitbox surprisingly can hit a little behind you. Which is why i primarily use it when im shielding an attack that hit my back.
Notice most of my talk has been options WHILE GROUNDED? Thats because staying grounded during melee battles is almost always a better option. It allows you to shield (most powerful thing in the game) and grab (second most powerful).
=) color added for the 'selective reader' convience
Topic #7: Gimping/Ledge Guarding
Gimping, in short, is lower percentage kills. Which usually comes from interupting an opponents recovery. For samus, consistantly getting a 'gimp' can really define you as a player.
Helpful discussion
zair is a great gimping tool against anyone with 2 jumps. zair their 2nd jump then laugh as they die. Also you HAVE to learn to re-grab the ledge with zair.
Other stuff: last hit of fair has a good angle for gimping, so does down-tilted ftilt.
nair gimps foxs fire fox, howeve3r hitting him with d air is the best option.
n air gimps a lot if you hit with the beginning frames. U air is great too, just remember it sends them Backwards generally.
also homing missiles are sexy for jump killers lol fire a few of those bad boys and they will **** the opponents second jump.
Nair gimps EVERYONE. It's one of my favorite edgeguarding options. Nair->just about anything you want.
Not much to add I suppose. N-air ***** just about everyone when used correctly. I gimp way more often than I used to since I started incorparating it(and all around killing more, SHFFN-air>Kill move = <3) and it ***** any character with a potentially bad recovery. Out-prioritizes some like Bowser's as well. On top of that, it's great for setting up D-air.
Bombs also are tremendously helpful to gimping in my opinion. I gimped a Fox player with Bomb off the edge, last hit of F-air returning to stage, D-air, edgegrab. All from 0%, and I have the replay recorded. I'll get on that. On top of that, they are useful for mindgames, setting up spikes, slowing your descent in case of danger, etc. I've been looking for a use for this tech I do with Bombs as well. Run straight off the edge, do a Bomb immediately, and you fall quickly down while doing the bomb animation and dropping one right under the ledge.
Aside from those, the obvious options are Z-air(really ****s up people like Falco and Marth, as does N-air), Charge Shots, U-tilt, D-air and F-air. I pulled off a last hit F-air > D-air once, actually.
sometimes I just run off and uair opponents with bad horizontal recovery like marth.. it sends them at a really weird *** angle.
In terms of spiking/ledgeguarding, using the bomb throw/spider bomb is the perfect way to set up for a spike. It's not hard, it leads to a kill ~90% of the time and works on the majority of the cast (including marth, G&W, ROB). I'm also going to see if it's possible to ledge-hop a bomb so that the bomb falls off-stage but samus can morph-ball back onto stage. I imagine you can but I haven't checked yet.
Other useful spiking tips - try to spike in a spot where the character's upB won't reach the ledge. This means going really far out. Also A spike set-up that many people fall for - jump out below your opponent then 2nd jump to dair.
70 % of my gimps all involve uair. I think I only use dair as a gimp 5 % of the time. Uair is a very good gimp
because it stage spikes on certain stages, and can be used at very low percentages.
For me, I think the only time that I use dair to spike is in combination with a bomb. If you want to know more
specifically about what I mean, you can look at some of Rohins' videos, he gives credit to me for the bomb gimp
that I showed him in one of them.
Just a reminder though, if running off the stage for n-air/d-air/z-air isn't the best option because they're too far... sh homing missile(s) followed up with a backwards jump off the stage is usually the second best. With this, you can position yourself very far outwards, both vertically and horizontally since now z-air becomes a recovery option instead of a gimping option. You'll be able to use u-air (usually sends them behind you), b-air and, more importantly, use d-air further out horizontally. If they're forced to choose to either stay in the air and get hit by the d-air or use their up+b to grab the edge, jumping backwards give you both the ability to edge-hog and threaten to spike off-ledge as well.
If they're not forced to choose these options, it's probably because they can recover back onto the stage without the edge... and if they're way above the edge of the stage... you can forget about gimping and charge up and reset your spacing instead.
Look to take advantage of
THIS
Against D3, holding the ledge is a godsend, and Samus can occupy a ledge for extended periods of time thanks to re-tethering. If D3 cannot vert-sweetspot on a jump then he must use his lag-ful upB. Assuming that you did not jump the gun (wait on the edge until you're sure that the D3 cannot DI back to it after upB), an edgehop->Zair/Fair->Usmash will always get you some nice damage. Nair has the lovely little effect of pushing D3 beneath the stage almost regardless of percentage...most D3's will realize what you're planning and upB (first situation), but if you can get the setup and you're not anticipating potential swallowcide then the gimp isn't a bad option.
For Snakes, I don't have a solid strategy yet. They will jump away from the stage and upB so that they cannot be reached. Or, if they see that I anticipated and went airborn, I'll either miss entirely or eat an aerial. The only way I have of gimping them is rather circumstancial at best...Ftilt angled down will pick them out of their second jump if not sweetspotted perfectly, and from there the follow-up Dair is a guaranteed hit (at low to moderate percentages, which is at least 110 for my average diminished Ftilt) unless Snake decides to avoid [Dair] and kill himself (and that Dair will reliably lead to a kill unless Snake lands in water).
MK and G&W I do not have strategies for. I've messed around with bombs and Fair, but those are usually out-prioritized/miss entirely. G&W can go too low for a reliable Dair and MK will just beat it out with Uair.
Warios are fun to gimp. They think that bike->airdodge will let them avoid all the crap you could throw at them, so all you have to do is wait before attacking. I spike too many Warios out of their airdodge.
Part of why gimping is so difficult to talk about is because there's only so much character-specific nonsense that Samus can pull. Most of how I gimp is by reading or manipulating the player, and that's very difficult to talk about in the general sense of this thread. =/
GREAT stuff on Dedede. I just want to add that if dedede is EVER forced to recover you should ALWAYS be able to hit him with a fully charged shot if you read him correctly. And if you do hit him before he hits the ground/ledge he wont have his jumps and he'll be forced to recover with the up b again. That being said, ive played some of the better Dedede's, and they have never successfully returned to the level after using up B on me.
Thank god you mentioned eating an aerial against snake, lol. Everyone BLINDLY jumps out hoping for the Dair, but its usually a big risk f he's still above the level. The only time id ever use dair, is if snake is BELOW the level. Ill try out that angled down ftilt. I usually dsmash if im in that position. Since for whatever reason, dsmash can stage spike, which is much more useful.
For wario, i would hope they airdodge of the bike and Uair. Uair is such a move that EVEN if they dodge they cant escape a pending Nair or Bair. Try it. Uair and then intercept the airdodge's cooldown with a nair or bair, its a frame trap that works everytime. Either way, i mostly try to force the wario to use his upb, which doesnt sweetspot. That should mean a charged shot/fsmash everytime.
I remember thinking a while ago that, although my observation skills are improving, I don't know what I'm observing when I see Wario. I was watching YouTube vids and realized I wasn't applying my tools... I was just watching "like a novice" in my former state. So I forced myself to ask specific questions. When does he use his ground attacks? When does he double jump?
Since I was watching this game (not participating in it) I also asked "Is there something that precedes the Samus' (the opponent happened to be Samus) successful attacks, from the Wario?"
In short, I noticed something. I was able to bring some framework to observing the Wario and ... I hope I have good questions to take to the next time I play one.
There is some kind of analysis you are doing, something you can notice, something, at some general level, you can say about when you gimp a player.
Even when he's below the level, I find that Snake's are tricker than many people give them credit for. Maybe I'm not positioning myself correctly and that's why it's tricky for me? I tend to favor the region about a SH distance from the edge (so either on the stage or up and a bit away from it). Against people with linear recoveries I feel like this is the most threatening position for Samus to be in.
Uair should have higher chance of landing than Dair, and I only didn't persue such options because I'd thought that Wario would be too far away for a follow-up. This is definitely going on my list of things to do. I have tried forcing Wario to use his upB, but that usually doesn't happen for reasons unknown. =/
I've been using bombs VERY successfully in legit matches (tourny and MM) against both Zero Suit and Olimar. The basic idea is to drop the bomb at about the time that you know they will tether the edge (think Snake dropping C4 from above and you'll get the general idea for the timing). Assuming you time the bomb correctly, there is a twenty-ish frame window in which the character cannot tether into the edge or they would get hit by the bomb. If you Riagoth canceled the bomb, your Uair (or Dair if you're daring and skilled) can sweep through this window for an auto-hit. I haven't worked out being aggressive enough with this for gimp kills, but at moderate damage (80-100) this seems to work wonders in these two matchups.
I've tried camping good Marths (like Neo, Pierce) and they always deal enough damage to stay in the lead (technically speaking...I do more damage, but not enough to beat the kill percentage gap). That being said, gimping Marth is a necessity to the matchup as far as I'm concerned.
PLEASE, correct, post examples, add on, or state anything you think would be useful to mention regarding ANY previous topic.
