Wolf's Zones - Week 4: Diddy Kong

Ishiey · Apr 10, 2009

Good links for reference if you need it, since I'm not so great when it comes to explaining things:

This thread on the CF boards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229109

Pictures about Marth's zoning, which I'm too lazy to get for Wolf: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7116014

SO.

Zones. Read the CF link for in depth stuff, but it's basically where you want to keep yourself and your opponent in a match. There are good zones, bad zones, and neutral zones. Good zones are where you want to be, where you can capitalize most on your position and where your opponent can't do too much to stop you. Bad zones are basically the opposite of good zones (duh). Neutral zones are like both characters planking, what each character does in their current zone won't really cause any trouble for the other.

This thread is for discussing Wolf's good, bad, and neutral zones against the rest of the SSBB cast. This post will be updated after each cycle with information about the week's character.

Ummm, I'm really lazy, and since there isn't much to update for G@W, I'll still leave this giant quote up until I have the time and motivation to change it.

SelfPossessed said:
Here's my two cents. Take it as you will. I might have missed a few neutral zones though and I'm iffy on how I organized it.

Actually, we really ought to decide on a format for discussion purposes. I'm using one I thought up on the fly based on special notes, relative location (Wolf same level, Wolf below, Wolf above), and general stage position. Color coded too for the hell of it.

METAKNIGHT

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is same level:

Good zone directly next to him when facing him. You can shield grab nearly all of his stuff here and you have a good safe jab. You both have invincibility frames; Shine and Shuttle Loop. Slightly in your favor.

Bad zone if directly next to him when facing away from him. You can't shield grab, can't Fair OoS, Bair OoS misses the ******, and you need to turnaround to do a jab.

Bad zone if within his Dtilt/Ftilt/Fair range but not in your grab range. You can't shield grab here and he outprioritizes and outspeeds you.

Good zone if outside his Dtilt/Ftilt/Fair range but within your Fsmash range. You can bait and punish attacks well here.

Neutral zone if outside your Fsmash range. Blaster can force an approach, but you're no Falco.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is below:

Neutral zone if he's way above you in the air. Can't hurt each other here.

Neutral zone if he's directly above you. Not sure who would win between his Dair and your Uair/Fair, that might change this zone. Also, perfect shield that glide attack if he's gliding in.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is above:

Bad zone directly above MK and within his attack range. Uair and Shuttle loop are evil. It gets worse if you're in this zone without a DJ.

Neutral zone directly above him if significantly above his Uair and Shuttle Loop range. You can retreat here with better air speed.

Bad zone slightly away from him but within his Fair/Ftilt range. He outspeeds and outprioritizes. It gets even worse if you're in this zone without a DJ.

Good zone if just outside his Ftilt/Fair range. You can bait and punish attacks well here.

Neutral zone otherwise. You can throw out blasters here on occasion, but again you're no Falco.

General Stage Positioning:

Neutral and Good zones near the middle of the stage. There's a smaller chance of getting gimped.

Bad zones near the edges of the stage if you are between it and MK. High chance of getting gimped.

Bad zones off stage period. High chance of getting gimped.

Conclusion:
Control the middle of the stage to avoid gimps. Stay just outside his attack ranges to bait and punish his attacks. You can also shield dash to get directly in at times. So, imagine the Target sign around MK that you want to stay in. Everywhere else is either Neutral (retreat!) or Bad (gimps).

SNAKE

Special Note - Snake CREATES Bad zones on the stage. Any one of your Good zones can suddenly turn Bad.

Grenades. Where they are (and their explosion radius) is a Bad zone for you, even if Snake is within its range. Snake is heavier, so trading hits is not advised. Of course you still have options where they are around, but it's unfavorable for you.

C4. Bad zone around it (explosion radius) if Snake can activate it without you interrupting or when it's close to exploding. Range is ridiculous on platforms, so the zone is pretty big.

Nikita Missile. Bad zone around it and below it. Typically dropped from above you rather than aimed at you.

Dsmash (proximity mine). This is a Bad zone for both of you directly on top of it (it's small), though Snake is better at pushing you into this Bad zone. Touch it and die.

Usmash (mortar). This creates a Bad zone all around Snake in a parabola as it covers the air AND you won't know if it lands in front of or behind him. With DACUS it has mobility too.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is same level:

Neutral zone within Snake's tilt range. If you can't get a rising Bair off before his tilts, his shield pressure is ridiculous. A broken shield versus Snake is a stock. However, if you have enough frames to get that rising Bair/Fair off, it'll cut through his options.

Neutral, maybe Good zone right outside of Snake's tilt range but within your Fsmash range. He has DACUS, but you can Blaster it and Fsmash punish other stuff. Closer to Neutral since Snakes don't approach the way MKs do (unless you meet a 2x ftilt spammer).

Neutral zone outside of your Fsmash range. You have Blaster, he has Grenades.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is below:

Good zone below Snake and within a jump -> Uair/Bair/Fair range. Combo him. Now. Bait that airdodge.

Neutral zone below Snake if he's outside of jump-> Uair range, even if he's directly above (gives him time to pull out C4s and Grenades and the Nikita Missile).

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is above:

Bad zone directly above him and within his attack ranges. He will hurt you.

Neutral zone above him if outside his attack ranges; use superior air speed to retreat.

Good zone above him but just outside of his attack ranges. Bair walls and Fairs work wonders as pressure tools here.

Neutral zones otherwise. You have Blaster, but you're no Falco.

General Stage Positioning:

Neutral and Good zones near the middle of the stage. There's a smaller chance of getting contained and pushed into a Bad zone.

Bad zones near the edges of the stage, including the ledge itself (you can get to the ledge...but how do you get on stage?). High chance of getting contained and pushed into a Bad zone.

Good zones off stage if you are above Snake.

Neutral zone off stage if you can recover with side B.

Bad zone off stage if you're forced to recover with up B.

Conclusion:
The large amount of Neutral zones here is misleading as his Grenades/C4/Nikita/Mines/Mortar will turn them into Bad zones. Avoid them, Blaster to force an approach if you can't find a good place to approach from yourself. Control the middle of the stage to avoid getting contained. Being stuck near the ledge with Bad zones all around you is a bad thing. Approach mainly from the air in your good zone; your damage will come if you can knock him slightly upwards. Off stage is in your favor, though his crazy ledge pressure can even this out quickly.

WEEK THREE: GAME AND WATCH

I don't have the time for a full write up, but there wasn't much anyways.

Bad: Being below (nobody fully justified this, but whatever), offstage (yeah, duh), in dtilt range (such a gay move)
Good: Outside of turtle range (punishing landing lag), in boost smash range (if he buckets you from here you can punish his ***), blaster range (if bucket is full, to piss them off), within range to punish landing lag overall (like every matchup lol)
Neutral: everything else?

WEEK FOUR: DIDDY KONG

Discuss!

ArcPoint · Apr 10, 2009

I feel very comfortable being in front of Metaknight for some reason. Like, just outside his SH Fair/Dtilt range. Wolf's Fair has a massive hitbox.

Semifer · Apr 11, 2009

I like mid range against MK, blaster is fine there. And you have enough time to counter a Tornado with shine/blaster/pivot grab there. You can also react on a dash attack or a dash grab better.
Close combat is difficult for Wolf, Ftilt, Dtilt and UpB have massive range and priority, but a good spaced FF Bair could be a save approach, if it outranges MKs moves or is quick enough to be unpunishable (has to be prooved). Retreating Fair should be a good tool to get out of a close combat into mid range.

castorpollux · Apr 11, 2009

anywhere outside of f-tilt/dtilt rangeis good. when hes gliding, being under him is probably the best placeto be

Sesshomuronay · Apr 11, 2009

I like being out of his tilt range. I hate him being under me, thats always an annoying spot to be in. I dunno, most spots when fighting MK are bad except for long range and mid range. All you got up close is jab(and maybe reflector) so that's probably a bad spot to be in.

Ishiey · Apr 11, 2009

ArcPoint said:
I feel very comfortable being in front of Metaknight for some reason. Like, just outside his SH Fair/Dtilt range. Fair has a massive hitbox.

I agree, standing face to face with MK at around tipper fsmash range is strangely comforting. Anything behind that is also good, since we have a projectile to keep MK at bay until he gets back into our primary zone (right outside his tilts).

Idk what being right next to eachother would be (like LITERALLY right next to eachother, since wolf has an effective jab) but being inside MK's tilt/fair range is very bad. At a 45 degree angle from MK (he's grounded, we're in the air) is also bad IMO, you'll need to outpredict him (shine/AD for aerial attacks if predicted lead to a relatively easy grab/pivotgrab for MK).

Also consider if platforms are around and when one character is offstage. Would you rather recover high or low against MK? How would you zone yourself in a way to make MK's recovery more difficult? Would you rather be on a platform or below one?

ArcPoint · Apr 11, 2009

I like to recover where MK isn't.

TO make MK's recovery harder...I just stay by the ledge, there's no preventing him from getting there. Predict him from there.

choice_brawler · Apr 11, 2009

grounded mk has invincibility frames on his shuttle loop so being right next to him goes to him.

ArcPoint · Apr 11, 2009

He has ONE invincibility frame, and that's when the attack comes out.

Zen127 · Apr 12, 2009

I'd like to be in front of MK, throwing out my bairs and then retreat and reverse a laser. Stay out of grab or tilt range.

Ishiey · Apr 12, 2009

Any particular change that you'd make depending on your %? For example, staying closer to the middle of the stage during lower % to avoid gimps?

I thought MK had three invincibility frames, but shield beats shuttle loop so IMO it still leaves close-range combat relatively even.

choice_brawler · Apr 13, 2009

you definitely want to avoid low % gimps so staying away from the edges is key. i dont feel like it would change where you want to be in relation to MK though.

ItsCroco · Apr 13, 2009

Im not understanding this whole "zone" thing. maybe someone could explain it to me in a few sentences?
I read the thread on it but it just seems like spacing. is it worth explaining it to me, if not just say so.

Ishiey · Apr 15, 2009

Zoning is basically where you want to be in relation to your opponent and the stage. Spacing is more like getting the full range out of your attacks to make them safer. At least, that's what they mean to me.

Seems like we'll be moving on to Snake soon if nobody else has anything to say about MK, if you have any more opinions on MK post them in the next day or two.

ArcPoint · Apr 16, 2009

Being a fair distance away isn't a bad idea. Being up close to him...is just no. I generally don't like being in the air, 45 degrees from a grounded MK. That is also a bad idea.

If MK is above you... I dunno, I'm kinda neutral on that. He has a ton of options, if you can read the nado then you can blaster in advanced.

Kashakunaki · Apr 20, 2009

This is very, very interesting to me. I was just at WHOBO last week. During the car ride we had two monitors and Brawl so we could play in the car on the way there. I was playing Dekar's Diddy Kong and I was doing well some matches and poorly others.

I stopped and asked myself and later him, "Why is it I am doing poorly one match and not the other? There is some variable or combination thereof that continues to change." This variable was obviously what was partially determining the outcome of the game. Was it my mindgames? Was it his? Did I simply not know some matchups more than others? I decided it was spacing, in a sense, or in this case, "zoning."

Throughout my entire Brawl and Melee career until this point I had never heard of the term "zoning" but I had certainly thought of it. I told Dekar, "I find that my options are limited in front of Wolf. When I'm facing you I have a much harder time dealing damage or gaining momentum."

I asked him what I could do to compensate. Maybe there are other moves I should be incorporating. Should I down tilt more? Fair more? Grab more? Jab? Ftilt? No... a lot of those have too little range to make much of a difference or are too laggy. I tried doing everything more or less, but the results were more or less the same.

I concluded that the area right outside Wolf's forward tilt is simply a "bad area" or in this case a "bad zone". I've been doing my own experimenting with zones and spacing in general since then. Of course, WHOBO was only two weeks ago so I haven't done much experimenting.

I case this post is entirely irrelevant... I just found it interesting that there is this talk about zoning and I had no idea about it, but was exploring it regardless.

Turbo Ether · Apr 20, 2009

^

I really like to use Fair to cover my front. I use Fair as much as Bair, if not more.

Seagull Joe · Apr 20, 2009

i like to fair the glide or laser spam.laser is a must if they like to use nado

impostoroak557 · Apr 21, 2009

I like him to be just inside Blaster range

I think Bair outranges most, if not all of his attacks, so just inside of the range of the that is probably good.

I think D-tilt is ever so slightly underated, as it is Wolf's safest ground move if spaced correctly. It's not shield grababble (unless you're Olimar( I think)), outranges most stuff, and comes out pretty quick.

Kashakunaki · Apr 22, 2009

Well, I think before you talk specific zones against specific characters, I think we need to invest time in Wolf individually before introducing other variables.

OmegaXis · Apr 22, 2009

I have little issue dealing with MK. The only real problem that annoys me is how he Dtilts the edge so It's harder for me to recover.

castorpollux · Apr 22, 2009

Kashakunaki said:
Well, I think before you talk specific zones against specific characters, I think we need to invest time in Wolf individually before introducing other variables.

what exactly do u mean kash?

Dv8tor · Apr 22, 2009

I think he means where you can be effective against any character with what position, basic zoning and spacing, then move on to specific characters.

ArcPoint · Apr 23, 2009

It's different from character to character o.O

Kashakunaki · Apr 23, 2009

castorpollux said:
what exactly do u mean kash?

Dv8tor said:
I think he means where you can be effective against any character with what position, basic zoning and spacing, then move on to specific characters.

More or less what Dv8tor said. What I'm saying is a GENERAL understanding of where Wolf shines and where he doesn't should be established before trying to analyze him, or his zones, any farther. A lot of the time people skip the basics. I think that just so happens to be the case right now.

ArcPoint said:
It's different from character to character o.O

I'm assuming the emoticon denotes a question, so yes, of course. Every character has their own priority, range, specific hitboxes, and specific hurtboxes. Marth, Dedede, and Wolf, as well as any other character, are all going to have, more or less, different "zones" because they all have different ranges and priorities. Then put in the factor that some characters perform better in the air, others ground, etc. It varies.

castorpollux · Apr 23, 2009

well, i think i got the wolf basics down. I kinda wanna see where this thread goes when it comes down to specific character zones O_O. Anyways, Ishiey, do u think u can somehow take a picture of a stage with MK + wolf and sort of box where the good zones against MK are? We need to move to snake =D

Ishiey · Apr 23, 2009

Yeah, I've kinda had no sleep for the past two weeks because my biology teacher is a nimrod, but once I have time (no idea when that will be, probably not soon

) I'll get a picture up.

I'll update the OP for MK soon. As of now, we will be moving on to snake!

Discuss!

Kashakunaki · Apr 24, 2009

Well, I do, too, but I figure since we are posting this on the Wolf board we should try and spread the knowledge to everyone.

Snake sucks. Try to keep him in the air. Seriously, though, he sucks.

I really think Wolf is more about taking advantage of the opponents bad zones rather than Wolf's good zones.

castorpollux · Apr 24, 2009

Against snake, if i'm in the middle of the stage, i always use up throw or back throw against him. If wolf uairs snake from underneath, none of snake's aerials can compete against it. Kash kind of nailed it. Keep snake in the air.

Kashakunaki · Apr 24, 2009

Ha, sorry. That was just filler text because I was going to bed and didn't want to type a big ol' message, but yeah, Castor pretty much said what I would have said.

However, I'd say ALWAYS back throw him. Never up throw. Why?

Well, I'm sure as any semi-knowledgeable Wolf player knows if you DI... man, I forgot... I feel dumb now, ha. If you back throw and the person DIs the direction Wolf's back is facing (so if Wolf is facing forward to the right and you back throw, the opponent DIs left) they simply go straight up. What does that mean? It means it is easier to juggle.

Wolf's Fsmash and Boost Smash allow him to chase any amount of DI and punish regardless, but no need to make it harder. Not to mention Fsmash ends your juggle most of the time.

Anyways, I digress. Back to why you should always use back throw. Stale moves. I can see the opposite argument for this, but stale moves mean they don't fly as high up when you back throw, which means you can initiate a better juggle. Also, I find that players in the air closer to the ground tend to want to air dodge back, especially if it is a ground savvy character. Easy up smash.

The only case I can imagine you wanting to up throw is if they figured out how to DI the back throw. I was playing a Snake last week who figured it out. I said, "Wow, I think you are the only person I've ever played that knows how to correctly DI Wolf's back throw." He responded, "Well, you do it so much I just tried to DI in every direction and figured out what works best." In this case, up throw would be a good mix up. If you know they will DI your back throw correctly, up throw. You know where they are moving, so just punish.

What a worthless read...

tl;dr Back throw all the time because it is easier to juggle unless they know how to DI back throw or you want to do a mix up.

=)@MePlz · Apr 25, 2009

I don't find Snake a difficult matchup.

Blasters and Shine help.

Bair walls and boost smashing are good too.

Get Snake in the air, and then you'll win. =)

Ishiey · Apr 25, 2009

=)@MePlz said:
I don't find Snake a difficult matchup.

Blasters and Shine help.

Bair walls and boost smashing are good too.

Get Snake in the air, and then you'll win. =)

Keep in mind, please, that this is not a matchup discussion. Blaster helps, so I'm assuming you mean keep the battle at long range? Consider that snake has grenades as well, which I guess you could reflect with shine, but just think about things a bit more. Bair walls and boost smashing are always good, that doesn't help too much with zoning for a particular character. Staying at that range, maybe, but snake also has a lot of range with his tilts and a good dash attack.

I think we can all agree, wolf shines when he's below snake. I think it's good to have snake above and in front of you when you're on the ground too, but that's more or less the same as wolf being grounded and snake being airborne and about to land within punishing rage.

Something else I'd like to hear thoughts on. A long-range game, who is better off?

@ Kash: I agree about the 'wolf being in opponent's bad zones' thing. Wolf is really a versatile fighter, so it's more of a matter of finding out where your opponent doesn't want you and staying there, as opposed to necssarily having your mind set on spacing bairs. Personally, Wolf is better off as an aggressive character, harass your opponent and pick away at their weaknesses constantly once you figure them out and the match will probably be going in your favor.

=)@MePlz · Apr 26, 2009

@ ishieymoro:

It depends on the Snake player's knowledge of his grenades/nikita. Wolf's blaster travels faster (without smash throw), but grenades have a larger hitbox and more damage. However, grenades have a large amount of mindgames, something that the blaster does not. Not to forget, Snake players can also mix up their campyness with nikita missiles, which can make Wolf players confused. All of this together, Snake overcomes Wolf at a long-range game.

castorpollux · Apr 26, 2009

umm if you do everything perfectly, wolf can outcamp snake in the long range. It's pretty hard though. You have to stop blastering once snake holding a grenade. then just wait til he throws it at you. when it reaches you, detonate it with your shine and then blaster again and repeat

SelfPossessed · Apr 26, 2009

This discussion needs 3 types of zones, not just 2.

1) Good
2) Neutral
3) Bad

Neutral zones are pretty important too as it tells you where it's safe to approach or retreat.

BIGM1994 · Apr 26, 2009

=)@MePlz said:
I don't find Snake a difficult matchup.

Blasters and Shine help.

Bair walls and boost smashing are good too.

Get Snake in the air, and then you'll win. =)

....play a good snake...

Ishiey · Apr 26, 2009

SelfPossessed said:
This discussion needs 3 types of zones, not just 2.

1) Good
2) Neutral
3) Bad

Neutral zones are pretty important too as it tells you where it's safe to approach or retreat.

Yeah, I know... but unfortunately there wasn't much feedback as to what people thought were neutral zones

From outside fsmash range and too close for blaster to be safe is an area I'd consider a neutral zone against MK. If anyone has anything to say about neutral zones with MK you can throw that in now, organization can wait.

link64e · Apr 26, 2009

One bad zone would be mid-front due to snake's incredible broken tilts that go through your own and fsmash.

Long range is neutral territory. Snake does have projectiles but only his grenades are useful. Nikita is too slow and predictable. If Snake does pull out his nikita, you can stop him with your Laser.

Our Laser is a tad bit faster but does little to stop his grenades, but his grenades are easily avoided with Wolf's reflector.

Up close in the air is one of Wolf's better zones. Wolf's nair is quick and fast and his bair can be used for more mid-ranged aerials.

(Sorry if my post came off as more spacing than zoning

. I've never really thought in terms of zoning before)

link64e · Apr 26, 2009

=)@MePlz said:
I don't find Snake a difficult matchup.

Blasters and Shine help.

Bair walls and boost smashing are good too.

Get Snake in the air, and then you'll win. =)

That seems to be everyone's defense against Snake. "Get him up in the air and gimp the **** out off him!"

Kashakunaki · Apr 28, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Keep in mind, please, that this is not a matchup discussion. Blaster helps, so I'm assuming you mean keep the battle at long range? Consider that snake has grenades as well, which I guess you could reflect with shine, but just think about things a bit more. Bair walls and boost smashing are always good, that doesn't help too much with zoning for a particular character. Staying at that range, maybe, but snake also has a lot of range with his tilts and a good dash attack.

I think we can all agree, wolf shines when he's below snake. I think it's good to have snake above and in front of you when you're on the ground too, but that's more or less the same as wolf being grounded and snake being airborne and about to land within punishing rage.

Something else I'd like to hear thoughts on. A long-range game, who is better off?

@ Kash: I agree about the 'wolf being in opponent's bad zones' thing. Wolf is really a versatile fighter, so it's more of a matter of finding out where your opponent doesn't want you and staying there, as opposed to necssarily having your mind set on spacing bairs. Personally, Wolf is better off as an aggressive character, harass your opponent and pick away at their weaknesses constantly once you figure them out and the match will probably be going in your favor.

You're right. Zones. Not match up. My apologies. I'll be more specific and expand more next time.

And yes, that is pretty much the thought I was trying to convey. It was the same thing with Dr. Mario in Melee, so I've experienced it before. Don't try and get opponents in your good zones, but rather stay in their negative zone as much as possible. That way you add pressure and that, my friends, is what Wolf is about. "Would you like to pull a grenade, Snake? A banana for you, Diddy? WELL **** YOU! *attack attack attack never ending series of attacks*"

Wolf's Zones - Week 4: Diddy Kong

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Mother Wolf

Smash Journeyman

Smash Rookie

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Cadet

Smash Master

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Mother Wolf

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Mother Wolf

Smash Apprentice

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Smash Champion

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Smash Apprentice

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