Matchup Discussion Week 23 - Ike

Teran · Apr 12, 2009

Week #23 Ike

Indeed...

So since there hasn't been much progress and activity here recently I thought I'd take the courtesy of getting you guys back into the spirit of things.

This weeks discussion is Ike. Heavy, big sword, lots of power and range. What has the blue bird got up his sleeve to take out this obstacle?

Discuss!

BleachigoZX · Apr 12, 2009

Pewpewepwepwepwepwwepwepw, cgcg, pewpewpewp, don't land near him, pewpewpew.

Sorry but this one is easy.
Also we beat out his jab by 1 frame I think. Also don't DI into by accident while he does some ridiculous jab combos.

Teran · Apr 12, 2009

From here on in the matches are easy to discuss, but we should discuss them well for the sake of formalities.

I don't want people coming in and reading a matchup discussion to be met by

*pewpewpewpewpew CG! pewpewpewpew!*

I'll sing my verse later when I've finished my f***ing long Biotech writeup.

Emperor Time · Apr 12, 2009

Play very carefully. I can't tell you how many times Ike has kicked my *** b/c I underestimated him.
Keep your distance and don't get greedy. I play Ike like how I play Monster Hunter...do chip damage and flee. Lasers will help you a lot, but be aware that ike might eat some lazer to get out of cg range. Getting hit may lead to really big problems, so watch out for that fair crap and roll punishing, as ike has some pretty decent range. Don't get jabbed.....cg...laser.....It's not too hard a MU.

metroid1117 · Apr 12, 2009

BleachigoZX said:
Also we beat out his jab by 1 frame I think.

Assuming that yours and our frame data is correct, this is true; Falco's jab hits on frame 2 and ours frame 3.

Falco versus Ike is a hard match-up for Ike; Falco can camp him very well with lasers and chainthrow him until 50% or so for a nice lead. Killing Ike can be a problem for Falco though, since his only good kill moves are his Smashes and BAir, which Ike can shut out well with FAirs and jabs. You can always, however, just gimp him once he's off the stage with the DAir spike (obviously) and edgehogs, since Ike's recoveries are very predictable.

Falco's light weight, however, plays to Ike's advantage; jab canceling can lead to things like jab -> jab combo (17%-ish), jab -> grab, jab -> UTilt (not as guaranteed as jab -> grab), and jab -> BAir (not supposed to be as guaranteed as jab -> grab frame-data-wise, but if you're DI'ing away it can catch you off-guard); all of which spell out either easy damage or potential setups for more damaging blows. Ike can send Falco off-stage easily if the Falco isn't careful, and it's possible (difficult, but doable with practice) to jab Falco out of Phantasm if he tries to go past Ike, which in turn can set up for a spike if Falco tries to up+B.

Watch out for BThrow near the edge; the common reaction to this is to jump and Phantasm, but if the Ike is expecting it they can run off the stage and jump out with a FAir. If you don't DI it properly, you'll be forced to use up+B, which can get Aetherspiked on the Ike's way back up.

Bottom-line: Ike will only win if he can get past the lasers to land some hits and avoid getting hit by a killing move. If he gets in though, he can do some major damage. Even so, it shouldn't be too hard of a match-up for Falco, especially if it's on a stage like FD or Japes. The general consensus at the Ike boards range from 30:70 to 35:65 in Falco's favor.

Deleted member · Apr 13, 2009

falco is one of ike's 3 unwinnable match-ups. do falco stuff and win.

#HBC | ZoZo · Apr 13, 2009

bair get him off the stage and block his vertical recovery with your body

Denzi · Apr 13, 2009

Xonar said:
bair get him off the stage and block his vertical recovery with your body

You mean horizontal.

Yeah, if the Ike is not particularly smart, jumping out in front of Quick Draw is a good method of gimping.

King Funk · Apr 13, 2009

Stupid things you have avoid with Ike:
- phantasming above the stage to be "less predictable": that applies to most enemies, but Ike will take that as an opportunity to f-smash you.
- failing to kill with your smashes: Ike will not challenge Falco's speed in hand to hand combat (jab, tilts), however he will wait for him to miss one of his killing moves, so that he can punish him ; ff bair approach is better than smashes to kill Ike.

Nyjin · Apr 13, 2009

Being an Ike secondary (Best Ike in SoCal? WestCoast? XD!) and having just played a decent Ike this last Saturday, I know for a fact this matchup is 70-30 Falco's favor if not worse.

-Lasers shut out all of Ike's approaches
-CG can kill if done correctly, and if not it's an easy 70 percent
-Falcos jab beats Ikes, which is horrible for Ike.

Basically, the strategy is...

1. Camp until you find opportunity for chaingrab.
2. Camp until Ike does any move other than jab, then punish.
2a. If he DOES jab and you're shielded and next to him, shield-grab.
2b. In a punishing position, use smashes to kill at killing percents.
2c. Bair-Dairs while Ike's off the edge. All of his aerials are slow, predictable, but deadly if not read correctly.
3. Win

Teran · Apr 13, 2009

Love the enthusiasm from the Falco Boarders! It's so characteristic! <3

Well then it seems this one didn't really need a lot of discussion which is good.
He gets completely shut down by lasers.
Don't get hit.
CG is your friend.
Our Jab > Ike's
Gimping Ike is quite possible.

We're light and want to avoid being hit at all by Ike.
He can **** us if we recover predictably.
We shouldn't be getting hit but if we do we're in for a world of hurt.

How to win: Spam lasers mercilessly, CG when you can. Don't get hit.

So... we'll say this is wrapped up and move on, if anyone wants to add anything they might think is important like a CG to 105% that Ike can do to Falco courtesy of Michael Hey, go right ahead. As for now, Ike discussion can rest.

Matchup rating: 65:35 - 70:30 in Falco's favour. I'd say 70:30, but my opinion never meant much. ;D

faceholerope · Apr 13, 2009

I haven't tested this out but I'm pretty sure that in certain instances you can cancel out some of his smash attacks when they're at the starting frames. It's happened before when I was fighting Ike and he's vulnerable to grabbing since he's in a punishable position and you don't slide away out of grab range.
Also, if you have him under the stage and he tries to recover with aether, if you time it correctly you can wait until the sword passes up, drop down, bair him into a stage spike and then recover (at reasonable percentages) and if he's at low %, then it might open up an edge-hogging possibility.

Blistering Speed · Apr 13, 2009

Denzi said:
You mean horizontal.

Yeah, if the Ike is not particularly smart, jumping out in front of Quick Draw is a good method of gimping.

Agreed with the not particularly smart part, an Ike will only QD recover if it's absoloutely safe, otherwise they'll use the much less risky DI to the stage and then Aether.

DEHF · Apr 13, 2009

if you cg spike Ike off the edge he is pretty much dead since he'll have to recover with up b and falco either drop bair off the edge while Ike is in his up b animation or even spike him again if timed right while he's jumping to grab his sword during up b

Blistering Speed · Apr 13, 2009

Shouldn't we assume they'll SDI into the stage and tech?

DEHF · Apr 13, 2009

you bring up a good point if that happens you get a free f smash or whatever you want to do either way he'll get cg spiked to death or get up to 70+ damage

Vlade · Apr 13, 2009

I'm not gonna bother writing up a huge analysis on this match-up, because it's hardly worth it if you just play falco properly.

One thing to watch out for though is edgeguarding ike... most of the time it isn't worth it. His upb is gimptastic.

Mini Mic · Apr 14, 2009

Sorry I couldn't resist editing the first post with something I drew a while back

Hyo · Apr 14, 2009

I'm very comfortable with this match-up; easy 8:2.

For one, Falco out ranges Ike with a single move: lasers. Now I know it's not good to say that a single move can move a matchup this much in our favour, but there is literally nothing Ike can do against a barrage of lasers followed up by an IAP. You can even punish at low percents with a CG.

Now the only time I'd say Ike has a chance, is if we aren't thinking. If we start dashing in with fancy flips and spins, Ike knows what he's doing. He's got a sword that has so much range, it'll just ftilt you in the face before you realize: "what?" and boom you're down a stock.

A wise Ike once told me, "An Ike who wins is an Ike who uses his head. The problem is, once our opponent does the same, we lose."

And this is my sentiments exactly. Falco has every possible advantage in this match up, from jabs, grabs, sliding smashes, and of course, lasers. Oh lasers and phantasm. Always getting Falco into trouble with Ike's friends.

I don't have any issues with Ike.

8:2.

Denzi · Apr 14, 2009

Hyo said:
A wise Ike once told me, "An Ike who wins is an Ike who uses his head. The problem is, once our opponent does the same, we lose."

^ That's awesome.

And sadly for the Ikes, it's true.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 14, 2009

I serioulsy doubt it's 8:2 though. That seems a bit.... much.

Vlade · Apr 15, 2009

7:3 is right.

Ike gets *****, but it's not like an 'auto-win' for falco or anything. He has good range and a disjoined hitbox to use, but his major downfall is cooldown on pretty much every move except jab.

Teran · Apr 15, 2009

LOL @ Mini Mic's drawing.

Jupz · Apr 15, 2009

LOL, that picture is too good xD

Also IMO its 75:25.

Ike's got nothing on Falcos lasers and has lag on almost all his attacks. Chaingrab to spike can be deadly to ike. All ikes got in the matchup is jabs, which isnt enough.

Nidtendofreak · Apr 17, 2009

35-65

I'd say it was 3-7 back before we know about teching the CG->spike, and the fact we have a guaranteed grab-release -> walk-off fair on Falco if we grab him by the ledge. (Yays for rare to occur, quickly sending into dead zone set up).

It's one of Ike's hardest match-ups, but it's defiantly not unwinnable (other wise Kirk wouldn't of gotten his tournament win). Laser does screw over Ike fairly good, but I've heard some talk of letting the lasers hit until the point we are no longer in CG% range to take out that risk, so maybe use it with a grain of salt. Falco's jab does outspeed Ike's but Ninjalink found out we can DI down during one of the jab hits and jab before Falco's next jab comes out (as he won a match doing that with Ike against Falco).

Ike has more range outside of projectiles and more KOing power, but it isn't going to help very much. Ike also has more movement speed in the air so in air to air I guess Ike wins out. Both can gimp each other with minimal trouble.

Ike's going to strike Jungle Japes faster then you can blink, Falco should do the same with Pirate Ship.

Denzi · Apr 18, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
35-65

I'd say it was 3-7 back before we know about teching the CG->spike, and the fact we have a guaranteed grab-release -> walk-off fair on Falco if we grab him by the ledge. (Yays for rare to occur, quickly sending into dead zone set up).

No one sucessfully techs the CG spike. And if the Falco thinks he's going to can just not, in which case Ike Fairs and we ledgehog his up B, resulting in death anyway.

And really, how often is Falco going to be grabbed in that situation?

Nidtendofreak · Apr 18, 2009

I did say not often, but it's perfectly doable out of Jab. I did say "yays for rare to occur" in my post. >_>

Anyone can say "If so and so thinks he's going to do this, we can just do that.", it just makes for a list of "what ifs" however, so I tend to avoid them. Because I could argue with "if the Ike though the Falco though that the Ike was going to tech the spike, he could just do such and such", but that would be pointless.

I've played the match-up, it's not worse then 3-7 without a doubt, I personally say 35-65 from my experience. I didn't get 3-stocked or anything like that when I played D3s, and thats a 3-7 match-up for Ike. >_>

Denzi · Apr 18, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Anyone can say "If so and so thinks he's going to do this, we can just do that.", it just makes for a list of "what ifs" however, so I tend to avoid them. Because I could argue with "if the Ike though the Falco though that the Ike was going to tech the spike, he could just do such and such", but that would be pointless.

Either way, it forces Ike to play a guessing game where if he guesses wrong, the result is death.

Nidtendofreak · Apr 18, 2009

Yes, but if Falco guesses wrong, he can end up aetherspike'd himself. It's not risk free for him either.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 19, 2009

Mind explaining what your talking about? I never really understood the whole thing with teching and how trying to tech can lead to mishaps. *Has never had anyone tech the Spike*

Denzi · Apr 19, 2009

__crystal____ said:
Mind explaining what your talking about? I never really understood the whole thing with teching and how trying to tech can lead to mishaps. *Has never had anyone tech the Spike*

Well, to tech the spike, you have to SDI towards the stage and walltech. If you time your C-stick press wrong, you Fair, and when you're a character with a laggy Fair (Ike, Falco, etc.) and your opponent knows how to ledgehog, death is a common result. If you do successfully SDI the hit, but don't hit the wall/you mistime your tech, then you airdodge, and when your character has a terrible/gimpable up B (Falco again) death is a result. If the Falco knows you know how to tech, and he decides not to spike, then you either Fair or Airdodge, putting you in a place where you're highly likely to be gimped.

So yeah, teching is just hard/inconsistent/dangerous.

Arturito_Burrito · Apr 21, 2009

Denzi said:
No one sucessfully techs the CG spike. And if the Falco thinks he's going to can just not, in which case Ike Fairs and we ledgehog his up B, resulting in death anyway.

And really, how often is Falco going to be grabbed in that situation?

Well If falco ever gets off the stage all the Ike has to do is stand at the ledge and get ready to speed hug. If the falco decides not to risk it and go for the stage Ike can just jab him out of his side b and grab.

edit: can't you just QCSDI?

Emperor Time · Apr 21, 2009

QCSDI registers multiple directions, right? Idk if that would work.

Also, predicting the spike is pretty hard. You need some **** God-speed impulse .(I'm exaggerating, I know)

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