Ice Climbers+ (Popo and his dimwitted frie- i mean Nana)

ICE CLIMBERS​

Before we begin, i ask that the chain grab debate is kept out of this post. This is to discuss other areas of the Ice Climbers game. You may mention the chaingrabs, but do not debate them please. Direct that to the post about it that already exists; here is a link to said post: click here. You may point out any combos or part of their game you want.

CHANGES

-IC Infinite removed
-IC's Popo's solo squall -> trajectory 60 from 30
-IC's Popo's nair -> KBG 90 from 100, BKB 90 from 20
-IC's Popo's sweetspot uair -> KBG 145 from 120
-IC's Popo's Fair -> BKB 58 from 40
-IC's Popo's D-smash Hitbox 1 -> KBG 120 from 105, trajectory 45 from 60
-IC's Popo's D-smash Hitbox 2 -> KBG 120 from 105, trajectory 45 from 83
-IC's Popo's D-smash Hitbox 3 -> KBG 120 from 102, trajectory 45 from 60
-IC's Popo's D-smash Hitbox 4 -> KBG 120 from 102, trajectory 45 from 83
-IC's Popo's Nair -> BKB 60 from 40
-IC's Popo's dash attack -> KBG 40 from 60, BKB 60 from 90
-IC's Nana's squall -> KBG 80 from 130, BKB 5 from 15, trajectory 240 from 30
-IC's Nana's nair -> KBG 70 from 128, BKB 40 from 20, trajectory 320 from 20
-IC's Nana's Uair sourspot -> KBG 50 from 142, trajectory 35 from 70
-IC's Nana's Upsmash -> Trajectory 97 from 83
-IC's Nana's Downsmash -> KBG 95 from 135
-IC's Nana's Downsmash Hitbox 1-> Trajectory 10 from 60
-IC's Nana's Downsmash Hitbox 2-> Trajectory 10 from 83
-IC's Nana's Downsmash Hitbox 3-> Trajectory 10 from 60
-IC's Nana's Fair Sourspot-> KBG 15 from 100, BKB 8 from 40, trajectory 270 from 40
-IC's Nana's Fair Sweetspot -> KBG 30 from 10, BKB 10 from 20
-IC's Nana's Dair-> KBG 60 from 130, BKB 30 from 40
-IC's Nana's Dash attack -> BKB 60 from 90
-IC's Down+B->KBG 91 from 180-130-30, , trajectory 225 from 70-20
-IC's Neutral B-> DMG 5 from 3
-IC's Grab attack has ice effect (no gameplay effect)
-IC's Down+B: After 66 speed up by 2
-IC's Side B: after frame 55 speed up by 1.5
-IC's Jab:After frame 8 speed up by 1.5
-IC's shorthop 20% lower and fastfall 30% faster, both of which are beneficial

An easy way to sum up the above is that, aside from Nana's sweetspot Fair she got a knockback (but not damage) nerf while Popo got a knockback (but again not damage) buff. This is good in the end because only Popo's knockback REALLY matters and it makes SoPo a good deal more viable. There are exceptions to be found, but thats the general jist of it. If Nana is your primary climber, replace Nana with Popo and vice versa.

COMBOS

Nair + dash shorthop + nair: only over a stage at low-mid percents

Dash attack to grab: only works near 0%

Dash attack to Fair: Not sure if it works 100% of the time, but i believe it does if your quick. Only works to about 40%, varying a bit depending on weight. Very nice way to prematurely end the opponents stock

Side+b to grab: only works near 0%

Side+b to fair: works at around same percent as dash attack to fair, as before, not sure if it works 100% of the time.

Bair to Bair: works at low-mid percents.

Uair to Uair: works to mid percents

Dash attack to Uair to Fair: works at low-mid percents, dependant on opponents DI.

Side+b to uair: works at low-mid percents

Desync blizzard to grab: works at all percents unless the opponent is VERY good at SDI

Desync blizzard to smash: works at all percents

Grab + pummel (once) + blizzard while pummeling, regrab and repeat: works to 80%, unless opponent SDI's well.

TECHNIQUES

1. Desyncing - Desyncing is accomplished by making Popo and Nana attack seperately. The two easiest ways to accomplish this by yourself is to do a single left-right or right-left dashdance to iceblock, or up-b to a ledge and immediately attack, Popo will get up but nana wont. Once the desync starts its best to use smashes or blizzard against those up close, and ice block against those afar. Space the moves apart as best as possible. For the crawling blizzard wall, you do down+B, shorthop forward down+b, shorthop forward down+B, etc.

2. Non-sweetspotted Up+B Nana save - Basically, when your up+b doesnt snap like a tether, but popo makes it to the ledge, you can often save Nana by dropping down and immediately performing up+b again. Just be sure you dont suicide in the process.

TACTICS

Tactics will go here later.

MINDGAMES

This will be the most vague one, as mindgames can be essentially anything. It will go into the psychological effects that the Ice Climbers have on the opponent. Some debate that mindgames dont even exist. Until evidence of this is proven im going to go ahead and act like they exist. I believe mindgames represent anything that causes your opponent to play differently, or causes them to play into a trap of your setting, etc. By this definition, Ice Climbers are the master of mindgames. Below I will list some "mindgames." Some of them may just be innate properties that cause the opponent to play differently. Others are active things you can do to trick your opponent.

1. Nana - As much as we may sometimes hate her, Nana (or Popo if you play Nana as primary climber) is our greatest attribute. Her simple presence causes the opponent to play extremely defensively, almost to the point of paranoia. The opponent knows that he cannot go for the grab because Nana will swiftly punish them upon landing the grab, allowing us to abuse our shield much more than any other character in the game. Of course, we also have a spike and nearly double damage with Nana around.

2. The grab - This the SoPo downthrow chaingrab that can go up to 60% for some characters and our kill from grab capabilities. Opponents jump through hoops to avoid this, giving us the advantage of abusing their attempts to dodge our killer grab. They also use their shield much less in fear of getting grabbed through their shield. The opponent knows that if he badly mispaces just once under the right circumstances, he can face major punishment. This adds extra pressure on the opponent in amounts that no other character can really do.

3. Desyncing - Ice Climber desyncs are somewhat misunderstood. Some believe them to be fairly worthless gimmicky mindgames that only work on those that dont know the matchup. Others believe that they can wreck the opponent. I believe it is somewhere in between. It is somewhat situational, but desyncing at the right times can put enormous pressure on the opponent, often dealing good amounts of damage in the process. Desyncing can be useful, just be sure that its not all you do as there are ways around it.

VIDEOS

Ice Climbers videos will go here, please PM me if you believe you have a good contribution. Brawl+ guides, matches, or technique demonstrations are all accepted. I may not post all matches sent to me, as only the ones that can be learned from will be useful and posted.

MATCHUPS

Matchups will be here soon.

I will make this post look nicer as time goes on.

Ignore Post.

5ive said:

Two topic? Don't get greedy with the topics now .

No offense, but I think a more experienced or bigger contributor should be posting this topic. I mean, Ice Climbers are one of the most debated and controversial characters in Brawl+.

And why keep out the chain grab debate? We NEED to talk about it, or it will never get resolved.

Again, my comment is made with all due respect.

Change the title to Ice Climbers+ by the way.

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There is already a topic on the chaingrab... thats why i said keep it out. Also, if you read the post on chaingrabs you'll see that i actively participate in Ice Climbers discussions. Im on the forums every day... and i consider this post to be "neutral ground" so im going to listen to all suggestions. As for the title, Fine.

Point taken .
Sorry : )

5ive said:

Point taken .
Sorry : )

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NP, you had good intentions so no apology is required.

I have not recently seen any statistical analyses which confirm the theory that there is a correlation between post count or time spent in a community and the ability to contribute to a discussion. In fact, this conversation thus far may be a perfect example that the converse is true.

I can't say I have much input on the Ice Climbers in Brawl+. They're a very complex character, but that also means that they have a lot of depth and potential.

They are very complex... my first post is kind of a "rough draft". As this thread evolves and the discussion expands ill likely edit it several times.

Almas said:

I have not recently seen any statistical analyses which confirm the theory that there is a correlation between post count or time spent in a community and the ability to contribute to a discussion. In fact, this conversation thus far may be a perfect example that the converse is true.

I can't say I have much input on the Ice Climbers in Brawl+. They're a very complex character, but that also means that they have a lot of depth and potential.

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Heh, again, me making myself look stupid with my bad judgement.

and like Almas said, I have no input on the Ice Climbers (as of now). I wish you luck with the topic though.

5ive said:

Heh, again, me making myself look stupid with my bad judgement.

and like Almas said, I have no input on the Ice Climbers (as of now). I wish you look with the topic though.

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Thanks for the support guys

Come back if you feel like you have anything to contribute to the discussion.

Also, lets focus on the topic please

Lagless edges was a really nice gift for IC, now, if only Popo makes it to the ledge, he can quickly drop down and Belay again to save Nana.

What are some good moves to desynch from my partner with?

goodoldganon said:

What are some good moves to desynch from my partner with?

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Best way to desync is simply do a single dash dance (smash left then right immediately, or vice versa) followed by an ice block. Some other moves work too, but that is the easiest.

Ok guys, time to get stuff done. First things first, SHOULD we have matchup discussions yet, since the chaingrab controversy is yet resolved? A simple yes or no should suffice, dont make your post lengthy.

Also, whether or not you want their to be matchup discussions, I need you to list the three characters, in order, you want to discuss the matchups for first in case we do. I recommend the ones that give us the most trouble, but thats not required

My opinion is that we discuss
1. Meta knight
2. Jigglypuff (she became a lot worse to us now that she can truly combo)
3. Marth

P.S. sorry for the double post, but this needs to get done.

Alright guys, bad news.

Nana is not affected by any of our gameplay changes, except for ones that affect the character itself (i.e ALR I think, might need to double check on that).

Basically, I tried ICs out and when I would DD, Nana couldn't, she would try to DD like you would in vBrawl. Thus, desyncing the climbers and basically making you a royally ****ed ICs player, meaning you can NEVER DD if you don't want a desync to happen so easily and out of your control.

Next, hitstun doesn't affect her. She'll momentum cancel like you would in vBrawl, this puts her in a BAD situation and basically ****s you up completely. No wonder Meep said Climbers suck in comparison to vBrawl. Because Nana isn't affected by hitstun or DD.

Nor is she affected by teching. Her window is the same as vBrawl, which means she is easily hit while you teched and... that's bad.

Not sure if she is affected by shieldstun or not but, if she isn't, that's kinda beneficial but again, desync like crazy. Basically, she's like a WiFi opponent right now and that's TERRIBAD.

Just some info for you ICs mains >.>;

smk...

Fix it!

it must be FIXed!

are there any chaingrabs for them aside from the alternating throws or the dumb d throw fair ice block thing that u see in vbrawl? cuz thatd be kinda cool to have melee cgs back again

Metatitan said:

are there any chaingrabs for them aside from the alternating throws or the dumb d throw fair ice block thing that u see in vbrawl? cuz thatd be kinda cool to have melee cgs back again

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Actually, they have less chaingrabs now, when footstools were made techable, they lost all of their footstool cgs.

Falco400 said:

Alright guys, bad news.

Nana is not affected by any of our gameplay changes, except for ones that affect the character itself (i.e ALR I think, might need to double check on that).

Basically, I tried ICs out and when I would DD, Nana couldn't, she would try to DD like you would in vBrawl. Thus, desyncing the climbers and basically making you a royally ****ed ICs player, meaning you can NEVER DD if you don't want a desync to happen so easily and out of your control.

Next, hitstun doesn't affect her. She'll momentum cancel like you would in vBrawl, this puts her in a BAD situation and basically ****s you up completely. No wonder Meep said Climbers suck in comparison to vBrawl. Because Nana isn't affected by hitstun or DD.

Nor is she affected by teching. Her window is the same as vBrawl, which means she is easily hit while you teched and... that's bad.

Not sure if she is affected by shieldstun or not but, if she isn't, that's kinda beneficial but again, desync like crazy. Basically, she's like a WiFi opponent right now and that's TERRIBAD.

Just some info for you ICs mains >.>;

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Well, dash dancing always had a good chance of random desyncs (though certain moves cause near 100% chance, as such dashdancing is the most common method of desyncing in both vbrawl and brawl+). If this is all true though, it would explain some quirks i noticed...

As for the loss of footstool chaingrabs... yea that kinda sucked. Though from what i heard that was completely unintentional, as the tech code did something with several moves that were untechable and made them techable. So that may eventually be reversed. Irregardless footstool chaingrabs are much tougher in brawl+... if you play with a 0-2 buffer its nearly impossible.

KarateF22 said:

Well, dash dancing always had a good chance of random desyncs (though certain moves cause near 100% chance, as such dashdancing is the most common method of desyncing in both vbrawl and brawl+). If this is all true though, it would explain some quirks i noticed...

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It is. I looked at Nana while I was pressing the buttons. When I would AD during hitstun (or try to) she would like in normal Brawl, air dodge as if there's no hitstun. She can't dashdance, she doesn't have the dashdance window like Popo does. She can't tech like Popo does, she doesn't have the tech window applied either. Hell, she may not even have shieldstun!

The point is, this is what is making Climbers mediocre and we're going to try and fix these issues if we can.

The problem most likely stems to the fact that Nana is: permanently CPU controlled (you technically dont control her, its a CPU that is commanded to mimic your every move). Oh, and she is a seperate person. She actually has a different character file.

guys dont discuss matchups yet, wait at least a month so that pple can actually get pro at this game...

I think the footstole teching is fine. If you get a grab off you still get a free smash attack. Grabing aside they now have beast desync combos

Not really, ICs aren't good in this game. Way too easy to separate and shut them down. Their grabs are still there but really, who's gonna get grabbed in Brawl+? If Nana is fixed, I could see them doing damage.

Since nobody wants to mention anything about Brawl+ ICs, I will...

Ok I've been playing the newest version of Brawl+ with my friend Ying and many others at my club at school. I have been experimenting with ICs alot during my matches and the following things needs to be mentioned as well as my opinion:

- Attacks are the same as they were before. Since there is no stale move negations, killing just became easier with them.

- Neutral B got a pretty good buff. Opponents will freeze if they get hit with a ice block like around 100. This makes their desynch game with them a bit more dangerous to fight against. Also good for edgeguarding especially when they are forced to recover from underneath.

- Side B & Up B is more or less the same.

- Down B is by far their most broken move now. Blizzard now sucks opponents to ICs and if done in a desynch, it's a free grab O_O'. It still freezes though but the buff to this makes them downright scary now since one hit and you get grabbed for free most of the time.

- CG's are still in . It seems harder to do but it is possible to 0-death still. Ice lock is gone as mentioned, but you can still pop them up from one Ice Block from a spike (seems that way last time I played). Since there's hit stun, you may combo out of your grabs. Who knows if there's another chain like in Melee waiting to be discovered in Brawl+.

Overall the problem is Nana related, she's still not affected by Brawl+ physics . However, this can be a mixed blessing though. She's not affected by hit stun so she's more prone to protecting your neck in your hit stun since she will always recover first (That's if she's around your vicinity for a desynch). She can still keep up with Popo, but DD isn't gonna work well due to said problems before. However, DD is an easy desynch and is pretty quick as well, very useful for initiating a desynch from far away.

It will take time to get used to and maybe Nana can have Brawl+ physics in the future, but it isn't the bane to ICs+ due to these recent buffs. It will take time to get used to but they're a blast to play still. But hey, having different physics for both of them may not be so bad but we'll see how it shapes up.

P.S. SoPo is epicsauce :3!!!!

i like doing a desynched b side chain, and if they try blocking if u can get a free grab :D

So much options for grabs now, seems all too easy for them for now. I can't say much for their match-ups due to these upgrades. Perhaps people with more range and aerials would give them trouble? They got buffed so who knows, just a guess.

rob IMO would **** their ****, as would jiggs and marth. any char that has extremely good arials is bound to give them trouble

They have pretty big issues against those good at popping them into the air and comboing.... and those with superior range. As such, characters like lucario and marth will probably give them a good deal of trouble. Ice climbers are still good vs. slow characters, like Ike, DeDeDe, Bowser, etc.

if you haven't seen the upcoming change list they removed the IC infinite by having a conditional modifier where if popo throws, nana jabs instead of grabs.


However, I wish it was the other way around, popo jabs instead when nana throws. That way I could still do 1 throw, just not the infinite.

What is your opinion on the change.

Also, Nana was fixed in the latest build (not yet released because CAM was borked by shanus) which is what allowed us to remove the infinite. Why did we remove the infinite? Couple of reasons.

1. A stock off for getting grabbed is silly. (Don't care if it is the player's fault, it is gay, therefore needs to go).
2. ICs can play fine and win without it now (look at Chu vs. Yes! Apex B+ grand finals for reference, and btw, that was BEFORE Nana got fixed).
3. Buff them in other areas and they WILL be good and will still have grab combos.

It is not the end of the world for them since their infinite was removed. It is evening the playing field out while still keeping ICs original and unique (grab combos).

Please don't flip out and give this change a chance.

What exactly does this buff do again?

Also, we should remove stuff cause we deem it "gay"...or should we?

iSpiN said:

What exactly does this buff do again?

Also, we should remove stuff cause we deem it "gay"...or should we?

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'Gay' is a bad word choice in this case, cause I'd just remove MK for being 'gay' in general. We removed things we believed to be anti-competitive. One mistake should not result in a stock loss that you have NO control to fix after you have made that mistake.

Ok guys, I have something to ask of you all. Desyncing is slightly better due to no tripping dash dance (to those who dont know, thats how we start many of our desyncs) and lower buffer making it easier to desync. However, one thing we have always lacked is a way to desync from the air reliably. So... i proposed this to the programmers, they said that if i got positive responses from the forum they would try to go ahead with it.

Basically, the way it goes is like this: if both nana and popo are airborne, nana is idle (not getting hit, experiencing hit stun, dodging, or attacking) she would use down+b but popo would not. The option for both to down+b in the air is still there because of the fact that the moment she starts to down+b, she is no longer idle and popo can down+b again. So, you could receive the same results as the current way aerial blizzard works by tapping down+b twice.

Some potential applications:
1. Very fast and easy "wall of blizzards" desync setup
2. Shorthop Nana blizzard to Popo grab
3. same as above, except into a smash

This would change nothing of SoPo's game.

I have also asked them to make it so that instead of nana being able to throw to popo, but not vice versa... make popo able to throw to nana, but not vice versa. This is because the latter is much more common and has quite a few more options than the former. They are looking into this now.

No, wobbling isn't possible. The reason is that in Melee, getting hit while grabbed resets the release time. It doesn't happen in Brawl.

I like KarateF22's idea. If anyone manages to code it, I think it's worth a try.

Also: It's just me, or does neutralB freeze people more often now? Maybe it's because of the no stale moves code. When I try to use it to edgeguard ppl, they'll freeze and that helps them more than hurts, which really sucks -.-'

Me_Aludes said:

I like KarateF22's idea. If anyone manages to code it, I think it's worth a try.

Also: It's just me, or does neutralB freeze people more often now? Maybe it's because of the no stale moves code. When I try to use it to edgeguard ppl, they'll freeze and that helps them more than hurts, which really sucks -.-'

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Yes, it was impossible to freeze before 200% under most circumstances, but they coded it to start freezing much sooner. The freezing doesnt suck that much in most situations, but for edgeguarding it can, yea.

KarateF22 said:

Ok guys, I have something to ask of you all. Desyncing is slightly better due to no tripping dash dance (to those who dont know, thats how we start many of our desyncs) and lower buffer making it easier to desync. However, one thing we have always lacked is a way to desync from the air reliably. So... i proposed this to the programmers, they said that if i got positive responses from the forum they would try to go ahead with it.

Basically, the way it goes is like this: if both nana and popo are airborne, nana is idle (not getting hit, experiencing hit stun, dodging, or attacking) she would use down+b but popo would not. The option for both to down+b in the air is still there because of the fact that the moment she starts to down+b, she is no longer idle and popo can down+b again. So, you could receive the same results as the current way aerial blizzard works by tapping down+b twice.

Some potential applications:
1. Very fast and easy "wall of blizzards" desync setup
2. Shorthop Nana blizzard to Popo grab
3. same as above, except into a smash

This would change nothing of SoPo's game.

I have also asked them to make it so that instead of nana being able to throw to popo, but not vice versa... make popo able to throw to nana, but not vice versa. This is because the latter is much more common and has quite a few more options than the former. They are looking into this now.

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Wow. I am in love with this idea :D. I'm playing a lot more ICs lately and this would be really cool