Uses for Useless Things

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

Welcome to the thread dedicated to finding uses for useless things.

Right now I don't really have any ideas for what I'd like this thread to be for.

So I'll stick to the name.

Things we need to find practical uses for:

Forward Air - The entire thing. (First person to say "spiking" will have to buy me dinner for the rest of the year.)

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Down Tilt - Up Tilt is better in every scenario unless Up Tilt is stale as hell.

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Out of Shield moves besides Down Air - We have Up Air, Back Air, Neutral Air, Forward Air, and Up Smash.

Of those, forward and neutral are not practical. Neutral Air wouldn't hit with its final hit and possibly not even the first 3 hits. Forward Air, is well... Forward Air.

Back air could be useful for when the opponent is behind you - obvious.

Up Air?

Up Smash?

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B-reversing Nikita on the ground. Or even grenades (fake-out approach?)

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Reverse Jump Canceled Up Smash ---

How to:

Dash > Pivot > Before Pivot Animation Finishes; Jump > C-stick Up Smash --- You should be facing the opposite way from which you ran, performing an up smash.

Uses?

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We need to see if we can Naritake Step (go look in the Sheik Boards) -- This may be a use for dtilt? Since the Naritake Step involves crouching. I'm not sure if everyone can do it, but I'm assuming everyone with a crouch can.

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napZzz · Apr 15, 2009

I like to recover with snakes fair sometimes? Idk it works I guess.

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

That small bump doesn't make up for the fact it leaves you near helpless for 67 frames save for frames 23-27.

40 frames after is 2/3rds of a second to spike you.

xsephirot · Apr 15, 2009

f-air helps slow your momentum when falling. i use it occasionally when juggledin the air and im out of jumps where after 2nd jump you drop c4, fair, detonate.

dtilt has more range than utilt. since dtilt also knocks ppl in the air you can start combos. so say you dtilt and then you run forward uair(which they'll probably airdodge) and then you can follow itup with bair

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

xsephirot said:
f-air helps slow your momentum when falling. i use it occasionally when juggledin the air and im out of jumps where after 2nd jump you drop c4, fair, detonate.

dtilt has more range than utilt. since dtilt also knocks ppl in the air you can start combos. so say you dtilt and then you run forward uair(which they'll probably airdodge) and then you can follow itup with bair

I'd like a video displaying the first one (I don't have a wii currently) -- sounds like it may be practical. But I haven't really seen it :x and I'd think you'd have to be pretty high up to avoid being punished. They have 1/3~ a second before the hitbox comes out to punish, or 2/3rds of a second afterwards.

Dtilt only has more horizontal range, but you also have to take its speed into account.

Also I've yet to land any dtilt > aerial "combo" more then once or twice a set, if that... <_<

HizoSturm · Apr 15, 2009

short hop then down air works pretty well in some scenarios

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

HizoSturm said:
short hop then down air works pretty well in some scenarios

That's not useless, and therefore wasn't listed.

OoS Dair is like.... our main use of Dair <_<

King Omega · Apr 15, 2009

What does Dair have to do with anything? ><

You'd be surprised how often you can just repeat Dtilts out of a crouch and hit people multiple times.

Seriously, though...recovering high from Up B > Nikita drop > repeated Dtilts on enemy shield from Nikita. Maybe grab them if they keep the shield/it doesn't break.

It's not a serious (or good :/) move and requires a shield on the Nikita, but most people sheild Nikitas.

I think Dtilit > aerial is 99% impossible. The damage % would have to be too high to even think of using a Dtilit in the first place....just Ftilt ****...

Edit: Fair can spike?

HizoSturm · Apr 15, 2009

how much % does snake's taunt do?

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

King Omega said:
What does Dair have to do with anything? ><

You'd be surprised how often you can just repeat Dtilts out of a crouch and hit people multiple times.

Seriously, though...recovering high from Up B > Nikita drop > repeated Dtilts on enemy shield from Nikita. Maybe grab them if they keep the shield/it doesn't break.

It's not a serious (or good :/) move and requires a shield on the Nikita, but most people sheild Nikitas.

I think Dtilit > aerial is 99% impossible. The damage % would have to be too high to even think of using a Dtilit in the first place....just Ftilt ****...

Edit: Fair can spike?

Read what he mentioned about dair, it'd make a lot more sense.

Also any opponent stupid enough to sit their and take dtilts without simply jumping is.... a poor opponent... if you have time to dtilt their shield, you have time to grab them.

Also dtilt > aerial would be DI dependant, and % dependant, and most likely opponents char. dependant. No ones really done testing so we can't say.

What's an fair? (buy me dinner)

EDIT:

@Hizo

I.....don't....know O_o....................

HizoSturm · Apr 15, 2009

SuSa said:
Read what he mentioned about dair, it'd make a lot more sense.

@Hizo

I.....don't....know O_o....................

oh no!!!!!

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

HizoSturm said:
oh no!!!!!

I don't have a wii currently, so someone should test that just so we know xD

I think its 3% for all of 'em. I could be wrong.

I'm almost certain they are all under 5% though, and I doubt they change dependant on whether you use down/side/up taunt.

(go test?)

/would lulz if box's had a sweetspot/sourspot hitbox.

napZzz · Apr 15, 2009

this thread....its being infiltrated by noobs @_@

snake can duck under **** right? If I remember, dtilt makes it so snake can be hit from his normal height or something stupid liek that, I cant remember. Maybe snake can duck under close range attacks and dtilt after? ._.

yellowroy · Apr 15, 2009

Dtilt when someone just stays on the ledge and their invincibility frames are gone. I tried Utilt when they were there and the person I was playing against forgot that Snake has Dtilt. Thats the only use I can think of.

With Fair when your recovering and you know they're gonna be a ******* and try to edgeguard with a Uair or something and they will just get *****. The only thing Fair can do is Spike or just use it when you're falling down and it has so much lag they wouldn't even think it will hit.

Attila_ · Apr 15, 2009

when recovering from high above the stage, i generally mix normal grenades with b-reversed ones. should allow to escape getting comboed or juggled by most characters. provided you mix it up.

HizoSturm · Apr 15, 2009

SuSa said:
I don't have a wii currently, so someone should test that just so we know xD

I think its 3% for all of 'em. I could be wrong.

I'm almost certain they are all under 5% though, and I doubt they change dependant on whether you use down/side/up taunt.

(go test?)

/would lulz if box's had a sweetspot/sourspot hitbox.

alright i just did some testing...

up, down and side box all do 2%. it has good knockback in my opinion for just that much damage.

IxxI · Apr 15, 2009

Can't you dtilt>uptilt at low percents?

SuSa · Apr 15, 2009

-NaPPy said:
this thread....its being infiltrated by noobs @_@

snake can duck under **** right? If I remember, dtilt makes it so snake can be hit from his normal height or something stupid liek that, I cant remember. Maybe snake can duck under close range attacks and dtilt after? ._.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6955190&postcount=109

Read.

yellowroy said:
Dtilt when someone just stays on the ledge and their invincibility frames are gone. I tried Utilt when they were there and the person I was playing against forgot that Snake has Dtilt. Thats the only use I can think of.

With Fair when your recovering and you know they're gonna be a ******* and try to edgeguard with a Uair or something and they will just get *****. The only thing Fair can do is Spike or just use it when you're falling down and it has so much lag they wouldn't even think it will hit.

Dtilt could work due to its longer range... but utilt also works <_<

They won't just get *****, wait until AFTER the kick. It's 2x the lag and no chance of being punished.

shmot said:
when recovering from high above the stage, i generally mix normal grenades with b-reversed ones. should allow to escape getting comboed or juggled by most characters. provided you mix it up.

Nappy was right, whats with this? Also, do we even mention B-reversing in our guide? Or avoiding being juggled?

HizoSturm said:
alright i just did some testing...

up, down and side box all do 2%. it has good knockback in my opinion for just that much damage.

Sweet. 2%

thats like..... awesome.... /lmao

I wonder if it can be staled........(also we have better options then the box...its just cool it hits)

IxxI said:
Can't you dtilt>uptilt at low percents?

Lol. not enough hitstun.... you MIGHT be able to pull off dtilt > "sourspotted" (the top of the hitbox near the end) utilt on fast fallers/heavyweights, but don't expect to pull that off often.

mofo_ · Apr 16, 2009

hmmmm fair can kill at like 110%...but good luck hitting w/ it

napZzz · Apr 16, 2009

<_<

Bleh. I cant think of anything dtilt can do other than what I suggested. Just label it as unusable....because thats what it is.

-Ran · Apr 16, 2009

D-Tilt vs whiffed Aerial approaches that are about to auto-cancel when you're attempting to save Up Tilt for a fresh kill.

Example:
Wario has been spacing with Dair. The moment he commits to actually weaving in and attacking, you can crawl backwards enough to throw off the spacing, and do a D-tilt. If you time it properly, you'll hit him during the frames in which he is relying on auto-canceling by hitting the ground. The 'dead' space, I guess you can say of the move.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 16, 2009

How about Fair when someone is on a platform? If they are at the very edge and snake gets the momentum going he can plow through with Fair and if it hits will send up them, if not fair pushes them over (and provided they don't attack) you could land Bair/Uair I think.

Any thoughts for the serious reduction in height with the dtilt? Safe against aerials?

Nic64 · Apr 16, 2009

you can dtilt while holding a grenade, not something to bother with often but it's something most people aren't expecting

Sandst0rm · Apr 16, 2009

Ran Iji said:
D-Tilt vs whiffed Aerial approaches that are about to auto-cancel when you're attempting to save Up Tilt for a fresh kill.

Example:
Wario has been spacing with Dair. The moment he commits to actually weaving in and attacking, you can crawl backwards enough to throw off the spacing, and do a D-tilt. If you time it properly, you'll hit him during the frames in which he is relying on auto-canceling by hitting the ground. The 'dead' space, I guess you can say of the move.

Those times are the only times I really use dtilt. Crawl back and dtilt when I'm being approached with an aerial that I know is going to land within range of one.

yellowroy · Apr 16, 2009

SuSa said:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6955190&postcount=109

Read.

Dtilt could work due to its longer range... but utilt also works <_<

They won't just get *****, wait until AFTER the kick. It's 2x the lag and no chance of being punished.

These moves suck and they almost won't work unless they play dumb, you have to be closer to use Utilt then Dtilt when they're on the ledge.

Staying on the ledge is stupid but I have saw people do it. They might actually think before I walk up and Utilt because everyone knows about Utilt. No one thinks that anyone would use Dtilt plus Utilt won't decay.

Grandmastershogun · Apr 16, 2009

__crystal____ said:
How about Fair when someone is on a platform? If they are at the very edge and snake gets the momentum going he can plow through with Fair and if it hits will send up them, if not fair pushes them over (and provided they don't attack) you could land Bair/Uair I think.

well I think they would see it coming because of the start up timing and sheild it and if it does push them over the landing lag would stop you from doing ftilt, so I would just nair instead of fair.

King Omega · Apr 16, 2009

SuSa said:
I don't have a wii currently, so someone should test that just so we know xD

I think its 3% for all of 'em. I could be wrong.

I'm almost certain they are all under 5% though, and I doubt they change dependant on whether you use down/side/up taunt.

(go test?)

/would lulz if box's had a sweetspot/sourspot hitbox.

Coming out of a taunt fast and throwing the box off a ledge to hit a recovering Snake actually works (not as a good strategy, but I mean you can get hits). Try it.

SuSa · Apr 16, 2009

yellowroy said:
These moves suck and they almost won't work unless they play dumb, you have to be closer to use Utilt then Dtilt when they're on the ledge.

Staying on the ledge is stupid but I have saw people do it. They might actually think before I walk up and Utilt because everyone knows about Utilt. No one thinks that anyone would use Dtilt plus Utilt won't decay.

You may also hit a ledgehopper, or someone during the few open frames in the attack/roll animation. You can jump from a crouch, so if they jump you can 2 jump nair, spacing will be alright.

I guess dtilt at the edge? But we have such better options... <_<

theONEjanitor · Apr 16, 2009

doesn't dtilt have more/same range than first hit of ftilt
maybe i'm trippin

I use d-tilt to poke people from the ledge when they are trying to auto-latch. It reaches a tad bit further than the auto latch distance, and it hits low for people coming from below.

and other times, it just feels right lol
like 3:45 of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQlXOP8CXRM&feature=related

sometimes I upsmash out of shield when when me and my opponent are both shielding. probably just jumping away is a better choice..but your opponent will try to grab ...and if you hit the upsmash at the right time, you'll get grabbed and often thrown, but they catch a mortar to the face...i dunno. its funny

Meganimal · Apr 16, 2009

Nair isn't effective against DK down b? i found it useful only against this move but it's maybe still useful to counter it with 8D. DK is huge so he may won't be able to DI out.

Uair is a good move to put pressure on your opponent if he is on a plateform and your under him, Uair cancel lag+Utilt for example.
You can also mindgame chars like Wario or Gaw when they are coming into the air by an full hop Uair.
Uair also have a good range, for example i found that Link dair< Snake uair, still useful...
If you fastfall an Uair on your opponent you can Utilt after at low prcent but it's really risky ^^.

If you have shield drop a nade and your opponent is behind you, you can full hop bair, you will attack him safely, take the nade that you will throw down so you will be able to recover from Bair easily and without lag.
I prefer this option to an Ftilt because, when your opponent is behind you because if you have shield drop a nade, ftilt will make you take the nade and not attack.

Usmash is a very good move to edgarde, prevent chaingrab and full hop i think .So it is useful but reverse Jump Canceled Up Smash isn't different, maybe more sexy but that's all i think. Seriously, on some matchups, we need to use it more O_o'''

I don't understand what do you mean by Nikita reverse O_o''' but opponent usually stop Nikita so...

Fair: rofl...

Dtilt holding a nade maybe a good idea but it's still really situationnal, if you crawl backwards, i think Ftilt would still be a better option to attack/punish etc...

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 16, 2009

Nvm, I will post this in the QA thread.

Meganimal · Apr 17, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M&feature=PlayList&p=88638F1FBD3B79D0&index=16

I think it's naritake step.

It's useful... dash+tilts, shield drop nade in you hand without lag...

SuSa · Apr 17, 2009

Meganimal said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M&feature=PlayList&p=88638F1FBD3B79D0&index=16

I think it's naritake step.

It's useful... dash+tilts, shield drop nade in you hand without lag...

How is he doing that shield drop Oo....I see once where he crouches to drop the grenade, the simply picks it back up...

I think its:

1. Pull Grenade
2. Crouch
3. Press A to grab
4. Shield

but lagless shield dropping? Thats huge....

Someone translate that

(Not until he's dashing does he do the Naritake Step, and that actually looks like True Pivoting...)

This is Naritake Step:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg61XaQvqMo&feature=PlayList&p=88638F1FBD3B79D0&index=13

Grenade platform dropping?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ar2M4iiB-g&feature=PlayList&p=88638F1FBD3B79D0&index=17

xsephirot · Apr 18, 2009

Meganimal said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M&feature=PlayList&p=88638F1FBD3B79D0&index=16

I think it's naritake step.

It's useful... dash+tilts, shield drop nade in you hand without lag...

How do you do the naritake step??!?!?

Kly · Apr 18, 2009

So, (i'm Meganimal)

That wasn't naritakestep, i found how to shield drop lagless a nade, but this work only on the plateformes

so on map like Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi Island, Halberd etc.. It's still a good AT

You have to: Push B and A in a really short time and keep them pushed, joystick down and shield in a short time too. With the right timing you will get the nade in you hand if you havn't the good timing, you will dodge etc... :D . You will need to train a bit to perform it but it's not that hard ^^.

You can also push B and A, joystyck down and roll in the right/left so you will move and shield drop lagless a nade, it's a bit harder.
I still dunno how he get the nade without dashing near 0.34 in the vid and how did he run+tilt on the plateform (it's really not truepivot, it's faster and i tested, true pivot doesn't look like that).

I also saw the vid "grenade platform dropping", i didn't find yet how to perform it

SamuraiPanda · Apr 18, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
This video is rather old. What he is basically doing is canceling the "dropping through the platform" animation out of shield into something else. Meaning, he puts up his shield for a split second, hits down (if you hit diagonally down, approximately 1/3rds of the distance from down to a horizontal direction), then does a jab, tilt, an item grab (like Snake's nade), or a smash attack to cancel the animation of dropping through the platform.

This AT is fairly difficult to pull off consistently, is only possible on platforms, and has very limited usefulness. Ankoku and I spent some time discussing this a long while ago, and we had to figure things out for ourselves because of the shoddy explanation given (its rather bad in Japanese, too).

This video more clearly shows what he is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ar2M4iiB-g&feature=channel_page

Old.

Also, I'm using Fair a lot more nowadays. Its surprisingly useful and kills at ungodly low percents when it doesn't spike. But it can only land in certain situations which can be quite difficult to find (I'm still working on various applications).

Black_Heretic · Apr 18, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
Also, I'm using Fair a lot more nowadays. Its surprisingly useful and kills at ungodly low percents when it doesn't spike. But it can only land in certain situations which can be quite difficult to find (I'm still working on various applications).

same, I'm trying to find an actual solid use for it lately

So far, only surprise kills on opponents standing platforms

but it kills pretty good

Tub · Apr 18, 2009

Use for d-tilt:
D-tilt adds a whole new dimension to boxing. The beginning of a d-tilt is a crouch, when crouching an opponents options become limited. not only do they have to think about which of their attacks hit you, but if they try a d-tilt, you are already crouching, and will get the move out faster. and during their brief pause, you can usually have enough time to get a d-tilt.
To recap, if you find yourself wanting to use d-tilt, crouch first, because they tend to pause.

theONEjanitor · Apr 27, 2009

so after playing a bit i'm pretty sure dtilt has slightly more range than the first hit of ftilt...so therefore it could be used to add depth to the spacing game. I play against some players that have memorized the f tilt range and try to keep themselves just outside of it, (marths spacing game comes to mind) d tilt might give those kinds of players problems

i'm also assuming d tilt has a higher chance of shield poking since its a low hitbox

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 27, 2009

How about this. Dtilt to be used to prop people up onto platforms. With Jab > dtilt at low percents can hit people up enough to land on a platform. And from there they might not react fast enough to do an aerial or something landing on the platform and from there you can try a sort of platform tech chase by trying to hit them with uptilt or maybe a Nair, Uair, Bair, etc.

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