The Living Legend - Solid Snake in Brawl+

Snake is still a great character, but not as good as he used to be.

The hitstun is a mixed blessing to him.

If you wondered why his tilt hitboxes are absurd, they are there to protect him. Snake is the easiest humanshape character in the game to combo, and none of his aerials meet the definition of "Combo Breaker". This is his main weakness here and quite a big one. The behavior of the cypher doesn't help this situation either. You may not understand unless you play as him. O_O

On the upside, he gets a lot of benefits from hitstun too.

Now that stale moves are gone, Snake's utilt is a multi-use move. It combos like crazy at lower and moderate percentages, makes a decent Combo Breaker on the ground and KOs most characters at 130%. This move will be used a lot.

His upthrow combos into utilt at low percents and can CG Dedede until 40%. He also has utilt chains against various characters until 45%. For example against Ike you can do uthrow>utilt>utilt>upair>utilt>uair or bair depending on DI.

Snake can still camp with his ordinance in Brawl+ and is still effective. His grenades are still useful for this purpose and so are his Mines, Nikita, and C4. Grenades have significantly more hitstun. If you blow someone up at moderate percentages and you are close, you can land a bair before they recover.
However, unlike vBrawl, you can't do this the whole match. You will HAVE to fight up close for a while.

The mortar slide is now a guaranteed combo at around 70% and when at about 45% his dash attack combos into utilt. For some reason, I find it impossible to do contact mortar slides. Non-Contact Mortar slides are unaffected. I don't know why. A shame too, as a contact Mortar Slide would be a guaranteed combo at around 65%.

His nair is far more useful here. The increase in hitstun and fast fall speed makes it much harder to escape and thus more viable.
His uair can combo at various percents. It's not hard to do chains with it.
Dair is a little more uselul too and is also a bit harder to escape.

Snake tech chase game is excellent here. Now that Dash dances are back, his down throw tech chase game has improved a little bit. You could also do a dash attack if you are out of grab range to tech chase.

Snake's recovery in Brawl + is.... Eh. They cypher doesn't go quite as high as it used to. I'm unsure if this will make it in an official build but the detonation speed of Snake's C4 is faster thus making C4 recovery viable again. It detonates 14 frames faster than usual.
Cypher grabs are annoying but the gravity makes it safer to C4 yourself at higher percentages.

On a side note, this also works on the ground making C4 more useful in far and mid-range combat.

His edgeguard game has gotten better. His Grenades, Mines, C4, Nikita still work well, but he has more options thanks to the absence of auto-sweetspotting. His F-smash is a predictable but lethal edge-guarding tool here and even his Cardboard box is a decent tool to use for lulz and stage spikes at high percentages.

Overall Snake is still one of the best characters in the game. He has more options here, but his lack of resistance to combos balances him out. He'll be high tier hopefully.

Combos
Unconfirmed combos work in CPUs on all levels, including 9, and may just be a result of punishment of improper DI. feel free to test in on a human and tell me if it works on one.

Unconfirmed
Confirmed
Note

Up throw CG
on DDD from 5% until 40%. Starts on 10% and ends at 50% on Falcon.
Up throw to sticky
on G&W, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Toon Link, Link, and Zelda. Doesn't work on certain Characters like Yoshi, Ness, and Mario.
Uthrow>utilt>utilt>utilt>utilt>uair>bair
on Falcon only. If you suspect him to DI behind you after the second utilt, short hop a bair instead.
Dash attack>utilt> bair
on Falcon at 48%.
Utilt chains on most characters until 30%.
40% on Fox, Falco, and Falcon. Best attempted when opponent is on ground.
Back throw>Dash attack on most characters at 0%.
Fast fallers and heavier characters require at least 10% damage. Feel free to ftilt if they don't tech.


Stages
Will be discussed another time. We need more data about Snake in this game.




Matchups
Will be discussed when we get sufficient data about our options in Brawl+.




Videos
0WN1N (Mario) VS. SciFiGuy (Snake)
0WN1N (DK) VS. SciFiGuy (Snake)
0WN1N (Charizard) VS. SciFiGuy (Snake)
0WN1N (Sheik) VS. SciFiGuy (Snake) 1
0WN1N VS. SciFiGuy<---- Ditto 1
0WN1N VS. SciFiGuy<----- Ditto 2
0WN1N VS. SciFiGuy<--- Snake vs. CF







Change Log

4/18/09 - Added sections for sake of orginization. Also added a bit more detail.
5/9/09 - Added Videos.
5/10/09 - Added Combo section
6/13/09 - Small update regarding C4 recovery.

Frame Data for VBrawl
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6890913&postcount=1
Even though this is Brawl+, this is still important to know.


We need more data AND vids. Discuss.

Snake also has a terrible recovery now.

Snake is an early contender for low or bottom tier in Brawl+.

Turbo Ether said:

Snake is an early contender for low or bottom tier in Brawl+.

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HAHAHAHAH

Oh you were serious?

Snake's recovery is worse here, but the gravity change means you can C4 at higher percentages now. You have to be above the edge to do so now on FD.
You can still get maximum Cypher distance if you up b at the peak of his second jump. Snake's recovery is average at best.

thesage said:

Snake also has a terrible recovery now.

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wut, he un-effected by auto-grabs, he got off easy compared to others.

I find it almost impossible to do contact mortar slides. Non-Contact Mortar slides are unaffected. I don't know why.

this, i could never do non-contact so now i have no mortar slides.

up tilt juggleing is *** and cheap, so is the f tilt trip i was very suprised it was inclueded in 4.0 and 4.1.

he also lacks a gtfo me move.

I like snake better in Vbrawl, it suits him better.

Zodac said:

up tilt juggleing is *** and cheap, so is the f tilt trip i was very suprised it was inclueded in 4.0 and 4.1.

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Mario would like to have a word with you. His is worse.

Snake+ is basic.
Not all that good, not all that bad. He's certainly distinguishable now. People are just in shock over his nerf, just need to experiment, find his ideal playstyle.

needz moar optimism

Snake was a camper in Brawl, and Spam was a problem for people often in vBrawl. Now this is a lesser tool, and his inability to combo doesn't help either.

Snake is awesome imo. People need to start comboing.

Hahaha. I tell that to everyone. "Try to combo"

Same thing with snake.

Nade combos anyone?

Also, lol @ Dthrow Dash Dance Tech Chasing. Too good.

Snake is garbs.

Nintendevil said:

Snake was a camper in Brawl, and Spam was a problem for people often in vBrawl. Now this is a lesser tool, and his inability to combo doesn't help either.

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it was good camping though, not that falco lasorz and flash ****. it wasn't over-powered and you actually need to think to camp effectively and the fact you could hurt yourself. I think his spam is mostly un-effected if not better in +, the hit-stun of nades is very nice.

and yeah he doesn't gain any sexy combo's in brawl+, just broken tilts

I bet they are there, you guys just arent looking enough.

Any of you started to use Dtilt and Uthrow yet? ;P
Dtilt has okay range right? And Cant it combos into itself at low percents.

And what about Fsmash edgeguarding (which is ******** enough as it is, and will tech anyone to sweetspot perfectly after 3 sets. Rofl)

Dash Dancing + Pivot Grabs? Wouldnt that give him a better chase game with the dthrow and what not?

Cant Bair WOP now? Or at least FOP?

Is there anything that can be combined witih usmash? Like comboing into the motar hitbox?

I know Bthrow can combo into Fair at mid-high percents.

Come on guys, throw out ideas and test them out. <3

The-Truth said:

Ftilt mindgames anyone? Since the first hit of Snake's ftilt bounces the opponent off the ground, you can keep hitting them with it if they're dumb enough to not tech and roll out the way.

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We should call that the "Boing Combo"
Maybe we can combo with an up tilt or a down tilt, or a mortar.
Eh?

Well, we need to find something.
I think a Mortar would work.
We need a boing combo.

You cannot easily do contact mortar slides because of the decreased hit lag.

timothyung said:

You cannot easily do contact mortar slides because of the decreased hit lag.

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Who said anything about Mortar slides?
And the problem is solved fairly easily with an increased buffer.

Yeah... Snake's Uair is nasssssstttyyy, it can combo into itself a bunch of times now hahahaha. Uthrow > Uair > Uair > Uair should at least work, maybe throw in Nair after the second Uair (if it is possible). You can probably also Uthrow > Utilt > Uair > Nair I bet.

Gais, you gotta combo like Neko said. Try things you tried in vBrawl with Snake the first time you played him.

If you are right next to someone you can hit them with the first hit of the F-tilt and then stick them with C4 before they can roll away. If they are 100% on the ball they can tech it right off the bat, but if you aren't predictable that won't happen.

I_Am_Plum said:

My main thing with Snake is that I played him defensively in vBrawl.

I liked to sit back and plan my stage domination, well placed C4 and mine, grenades in the right place; basically watch it unfold as my opponent had to eat something no matter where they went.

I experimented with Snake and he had some nasty combos with Uthrow and Uair, even his tilts can combo into eachother, but the game was too fast paced for me to get that same stage control set up.

I personally think Snake is just a better defensive character, and that's why he thrives so much in vBrawl. I just can't get used to playing him more offensively :\

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The thing is he can still play defensively. Not to sound rude, but you have to get your traps set up quickly and efficiently to do it though. Also grenade camping and knowledge of their timing to explode are key to playing defensively. Combine that with his absurd tilt range ( F-tilt OoS is so pro with its range) and powershielding and he can still be played defensively.

He has the tools in his arsenal, it's just much harder to do so now a days. I'll agree he's more offensive now a days, but his strong defensive game is what keeps him so good in Brawl+.

Well, if you manage to sticky them, you are guaranteed to be able to blow them up with the C4 if you perform it ASAP after a throw or tilt thanks to hitstun.

I will write the guide when there is sufficient data for it.

How big is the hitbox of fsmash, as I've mentioned, its not half bad for edgeguarding. If you can space it properly, you can use it to edgeguard really well.

Not very big, but it is worth it. I recommend it only against recover moves that have a very small hitbox, low priority, and don't sweetspot the ledge.

For example, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Luigi. When I get the chance, I will see if it can destroy tethers before the grab the ledge.

Sigh.... a double post.

Also, C4 + Ledge + NASL = LOL.

Safer than the smash, but with less kill potency. You could probably set up for some redic setups at the ledge.

Like for example.


Center of FD-----------Landmine-------Snaek---------CF-Ledge.

You can easily bait a roll with a Nikita couldnt you? I mean zam. thinking about his potential edge hogging/guarding abilities is quite scary with NASL. D:

Snake still has a hard pressure game, but he focuses more on hard*ss single strikes than combos.
And yes, he edgeguards like a pimp.

knuxrouge said:

Snake still has a hard pressure game, but he focuses more on hardass single strikes than combos.
And yes, he edgeguards like a pimp.

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More now than in vBrawl.

I think the metagame of snake should revolve closer towards edgeguarding imo. He has waay to many tools not to take advantage of NASL.

EDIT: ALSO DASH DANCE DTHROW TECHCHASE. IS THIS AWESOME? Y/N

So... I don't really have anything to say about Brawl+ Snake but perhaps the spoiler in the thread title should be removed.

Starscream said:

perhaps the spoiler in the thread title should be removed.

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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

GHNeko said:

EDIT: ALSO DASH DANCE DTHROW TECHCHASE. IS THIS AWESOME? Y/N

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Yes, it is an improvement over his already great tech chasing game.

I was thinking: if you guys don't think snake will be in the top tier ( or one of you guys said bottom ) who will take his place? I think he and MK will stay were they are. I don't think that there that changed. But, some one could replace them. Any ideas?

Mr.-0 said:

I was thinking: if you guys don't think snake will be in the top tier ( or one of you guys said bottom ) who will take his place? I think he and MK will stay were they are. I don't think that there that changed. But, some one could replace them. Any ideas?

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Marth could deff replace Snake.

Starscream said:

So... I don't really have anything to say about Brawl+ Snake but perhaps the spoiler in the thread title should be removed.

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That is common knowledge in the MG community. Metal Gear Solid, Sons of Liberty, Snake Eater, and Guns of the Patriots assume you already know this and this only qualifies as a spoiler if you haven't played Metal Gear and MG2: Solid Snake on the MSX.

BUT I will change it.

I'd like to confirm that Uthrow > C4 sticky works on at least G&W (so I am to assume it works on everyone).

Just FYI.

Snake's combos involving uthrow, utilt, and uair remind me of Yoshi's DJC uair and utilt combos in Melee.
Super-effective on fast fallers, good on normal fallers, and mediocre on floatier characters.

The utilt and uair chains are so effective against Falcon, it's enough to give Snake the advantage.

Utilt to grab anyone? ;D