Pokedex Entry: Kirby

well, i'm not very enthused about our matchup discussion project because rarely will we get quality players of the other character to comment, but whatever. it was about time we did another one

my 3 cents

squirtle and charizard should both be around even, squirtle maybe doing slightly better than kirby and charizard slightly worse

ivysaur disadvantage

overall even or pretty close to it

OMG I hate fighting kirby.

I used to be fine with it until I had to play a really good kirby player in my last tournament...Bad times.

If he gets the early grab you're looking at like 50%. If he reads your reactions right as you exit the chain grab/chained attecks you can eat an fsmash as well. Not good.

Kirby has a sweet back air that beats every aerial squirtle has, so the only option seems to be getting yourself past it before beginning to attack. Kirby kills squirtle at like 80% with smashes. Maybe less.

Ivysuar does well outspacing kirby and playing keep away. Early up air kills are very handy. You can beat kirby's bair with fair as well, which can make for a great damage racker of kill move...Despite this kirby's ability to steal bullet seed can be fairly problematic. Kirby is light enough for the move to be almost useless when we try it, but ivysaur is a good weight to get caught in it...which can cause significant troubles.

Charizard can play keep away as well, although he's more prone to juggle traps and fthrow->aerial strings than the other pokemon. Overall its hard for me to tell which pokemon do well or poorly, it all seems to hinge on whether kirby gets the early grab or a lucky smash attack. Either one of those end your stock fast regardless of which pokemon you are.


Bleh. I dont like playing against kirby.

you can rock smash during kirby's throw combos

and probably bullet seed

Kirby is so small and I hate getting swallowed

I'm fairly sure that I tried mashing bullet seed.

Tcranter speaks truth. I hate Kirby as well. He can be quite the nuisance. I'd say 60:40 Kirby, overall.

Squirtle definitely has the easiest time against Kirby, because his air game is much faster. But just because you have a faster aerial game, doesn't mean it's better. Kirby's bair, uair, and side b can be quite devastating in the hands of a good player. They all have huge priority and better range than Squirtle's airs. Don't get too hasty though, because you may run into a down b if you get zealous. Also, be aware of those grabs. They lead into lots of aerial options, so try to stay mobile. Jabs and jab cancels are you best bet on land. For Squirtle, I would say it's 55:45 Kirby.

Ivysaur is definitely the hardest to work with. I'd suggest only pulling Ivysaur out for a kill after racking up with Squirtle, then quickly switching to Zard. Reason being is Kirby will just be grabbing and juggling you non-stop unless you get the kill on him quick. It's hard to space while being juggled because his aerials have greater priority than yours and when you are getting juggled you are forced to face your opponent, so you can't b-air spam. Just go for a kill and swap ASAP. Watch out for the gimp too! Kirby can get down to the ledge quickly from very high above the stage (down-b) and from very low. Ivy is definitely at least 60:40, if not more, in Kirby's favor.

When Zard is out, play safe. Get in, get out. Zard has great spacing moves and that is his greatest advantage over Kirby. His grab game is better than Kirby's, and most of his ground attacks outrange Kirby's. Once again, DON'T GET GRABBED. Charizard suffers the most from juggling, so it's important to prevent getting grabbed at all costs. Zard has the best survival, so you have more chances to make up for your mistakes. Zard is probably about 55:45 Kirby, depending on who gets the opener.

General tips:
-Don't get your powers absorbed as Ivy or Zard!
Kirby is incredibly floaty, so your specials as Ivy/Zard are pretty ineffective. But if you are getting hit by Bullet Seed/Flamethrower, you will suffer! This isn't really a huge problem seeing as how most Kirby players don't really worry about copying powers, but keep it in mind, nonetheless.
-Use Ivy as little as possible.
Ivy is too susceptible to Kirby's combos, while not having the tools to effectively combo Kirby back. Use Ivy to get a kill and get him outta there! Get a safe switch ASAP, because once you get caught as Ivy, you won't have many other chances to get UNcaught.
-DON'T GET GRABBED OMG SERIOUSLY
Kirby may not have a chain grab, but once you get grabbed, you can get comboed to hell and back. I cannot stress this enough. Space space space.

Those are some of the general ideas I use while fighting Kirby. I also hate this matchup a lot. D:

as squirtle, focus on your ground game and punishing kirby's stuff with your grabs and jabs, imo. you have opportunities to punish stuff in the air because of your sizable advantage in air speed, but aerial head to head isn't a good idea if kirby can turn around and bair.

don't try to edgeguard kirby unless you are sure you won't die from a swallow

but yeah, i pretty much agree with megapants (new account for previous pants user??) stick with squirtle and charizard, they do alright.

No actually, fresh blood here. I wish I were as good as Pants, though, haha.

That's another good point, Steeler. Edgeguarding is foolish. Kirby has no difficulty getting back to the stage. If you go offstage in hopes of a kill, you will get punished. And rightfully so. I have done this too many times to count, and I finally learned my lesson.

Getting spiked by Kirby doesn't feel good at all.

Kirby vs. Pokemon Trainer

In general, you'll want to watch out for Kirby's main combo starters: Grab, U-tilt, U-air, D-air, D-tilt.

Kirby noobs will go for lots of grabs in hopes of getting the standard Kirby combo, F-throw to U-air. When you see the F-throw (slams you on your head going forward) get ready to Smash DI the U-air (away, or away & up). This will get you out of the U-tilt follow-up, especially if you jump afterward. If you see Kirby do the D-throw instead, you'll want to DI up and jump (if you DI up and toward Kirby you can try for a Footstool to get away) - you want to avoid the U-tilt follow-up after his D-throw. Kirby will only use a U-throw to KO, or to get you away from him quickly (such as in Doubles). Kirby's B-throw is pretty bad and will be rarely seen.

Kirby's U-tilt hits close to him, so you'll want to look out for that when he's next to you, especially when he's facing away from you. It will hit you into a juggle so that heavier/fast fallers can get caught by multiple U-tilts at low percent (such as Charizard). Kirby can usually get two U-tilts on someone who's at 0% even if they're a floaty character. Follow-ups to U-tilt include B-air, U-air, N-air. If you try to Air Dodge or attack through the follow-up, Kirby can change things up by going with punishment or counter attacks, such as Grabbing you after your Air Dodge. You'll want to DI (or Smash DI) the U-tilt horizontally, if you need to get away even more, jump away so that you can avoid his "punishment" attacks.

Kirby's U-air hits on Frame 10 - it's not fast, but it's not very slow either. What makes up for it's mediocre speed is the range it has over Kirby's head. It hits pretty high, so don't underestimate the range Kirby has when he's under you. The U-air also hits in front of Kirby when it starts up, and drops down behind him as it finishes. He can use the first part as an approach, or he can use it while facing away from you to hit with the finishing frames and drop down into an Auto-Cancel'd follow-up. The best follow-up for the U-air at lower percents is a U-tilt, which I went over already. At very low percents, a U-air can lead into a grab as well as a U-tilt, F-tilt, Jab, or D-tilt, depending on the weight of the character. For the most part, U-air is used as a launcher and does 10%.

Kirby's D-air is versatile. When the opponent is on the ground, Kirby can drill into them with a multi-hit attack that builds up damage and then pushes the opponent away when he hits the ground. The 'ground hit' of the D-air is weak enough that Kirby can follow up with a Grab, Dash Attack, or F-smash. Most of the time, the Grab is the best thing he can use to follow-up since the Dash Attack and the F-smash gives the opponent enough time to get a Shield up. Since the opponent will want to avoid getting a F-smash, they'll be holding the Shield button, so again, the Grab is preferred. Sometimes, though, the D-air can trip, or even launch the opponent slightly into the air where they will spin around, either of these is an excellent set-up for an F-smash or U-smash. A Dash Attack follow-up after a normal D-air is to punish people trying to dodge a grab.

Off-stage, the D-air can be used to gimp recoveries. All the Pokemon get gimped pretty hard if they ever get hit by the D-air. The knockback isn't tremendous, but it drags the victim downward with a multi-hitting attack which makes it hard to avoid and difficult to recover from. The good news is the D-air takes 18 frames of start-up, so you can usually avoid it when you see it coming, or you can try to hit Kirby first. It's priority isn't great, either, so you might be able to hit Kirby out of it, just don't get hit by it when trying.

Kirby's D-tilt is very quick, and he'll squish down when using it making him even harder to hit than with his normal crouch (which is already pretty small). There's not much you can do against the D-tilt since the range and speed is good enough to avoid punishment, Kirby's stance is defensive, and it can shield stab taller characters when their shield is low. When it hits from 0% to 150+%, it can trip. What Kirby does to you after the trip depends on how good the Kirby is and what he wants to do to you. If he wants to build damage, he'll usually go for a grab, but skilled Kirby players can also try for a reverse U-tilt to juggle you. If you're at higher damage, you're going to get F-smashed. If you tripped close to Kirby, the F-smash is pretty unavoidable, but if you're farther away you might be able to roll away before the F-smash reaches you, or at the very least it might not sweet spot you. Kirby can also go for a Dashing Grab, Dash Attack, F-tilt, or another D-tilt. The F-tilt and D-tilt after a D-tilt are usually done as a safe combo - the F-tilt to knock you away, the D-tilt is best used when the first D-tilt didn't trip and the follow-up D-tilt might.

Off-stage, Kirby has a pretty easy time vs. Pokemon Trainer. He's has plenty of jumps as well as F-special and U-special to add to his recovery. He can use D-special to drop back onto the stage while practically invincible and get all his jumps back, as well as a chance to hit anyone below him for 18% vertical damage.

When edge guarding, Kirby will usually jump out with B-air, F-air, D-air or F-special to intercept any of the Pokemon's recovery, except for Ivysaur. Against Ivysaur everyone knows to just edgehog. Charizard probably has the easiest time against Kirby when recovering since he has multiple jumps, plus he's a heavy weight so he can DI upward and try to Glide back to the center of the stage before avoiding Kirby's offense.

Charizard vs. Kirby
Kirby will be trying to rack up damage with combos since Charizard is easy to knock around. Charizard's heavy weight won't help much since Kirby will either KO around 100% to 120% with his F-smash, or will go for off-stage KOs. If you can avoid getting hit by F-smash, Hammer, and Stone, Charizard should be able to survive for a good amount of damage. Build up damage with Flamethrower, Rock Smash, and Grabs. When Kirby is at a good damage, KO with D-tilt or U-smash, go for a D-throw when he's around at higher percents. Watch out for Kirby's close quarters fighting, he's fast, builds up damage, and can get you off-stage quickly. Kirby's Charizard hat can be used against any Pokemon to build up damage and give Kirby a good spacing attack, don't let him get it!
55-45, Kirby's favor.

Ivysaur vs. Kirby
You'll want to use your range to its fullest, do not let Kirby near you. Of course, he'll be trying to do the opposite, so when he does get near you either avoid him completely or try to get a quick hit in that does not leave yourself open. D-tilt, and the multi-jab are some of your better choices when up close, but their purpose is to put space betwen you and Kirby. If you can get a Grab/Pivot Grab on Kirby, toss him off stage, or just throw him so that he's not next to you anymore. F-air and U-special can KO Kirby decently, or better yet they can knock him far enough away to switch out to a better Pokemon. F-smash is a great KO attack on Kirby, the range and power are great to finish him off and switch out. Don't get knocked off stage. Kirby's Ivysaur hat is bad news, don't let him get it!
65-35, Kirby's favor.

Kirby vs. Squirtle
I think Squirtle is superior to Kirby with attacks in every way... except for range. Kirby's B-air is just a little bit bigger and easier to use, so expect him to spam this. Also, Kirby's F-smash is an awesome KO attack against Squirtle, it has the range, priority and power to take out Squirtle easily, and this is perhaps the biggest threat. Off-stage, Kirby also has the advantage since he has multiple jumps and can gimp Squirtle fairly easily. What you'll want to do is stay on-stage, stay mobile, and get the hits in. Stick with fast, defense attacks such as retreating B-airs and fading F-airs. Getting Kirby into a juggle might be difficult, but you can build up some good damage if you do. Getting the KO on Kirby will be hard since hitting with a U-smash might be predicted too easily, so you'll mostly be looking to get a D-throw on him which will KO Kirby under 120% to 150%.
55-45, Kirby's favor.

Very good post t!mmy.... i agree with the numbers... except for ivy i think its more llike 60/40... and overall 55/45.....
And i have some stuff to add:
*Charizard is the only pokemon who can edgeguard kirby thanks to his dair spike, and well.. aerial rock smash... kirby should be trying to recover high to avoid this.. anyway kirby is pretty light and you may star KO him before you can edguard
*Squirtles Dthrow may kill kirby earlier than 120, and it also can work to switch to a ivy and get a more reliable kill
*Be defensive with ivy, you have better range and a proyectile... use those advantages to the max because its kinda all ivy got against him

And finally... i have a question:
Does charizard's dair beat kirby's uair?? Im not sure...

I'm fairly certain that dair out prioritizes Kirby's uair, but I'm not 100% on that.

Also, thanks for the post T!mmy! Very informative.

Well...T1mmy didn't leave much for me to say. :/

I've been to over half a dozen tournies, and I don't recall seeing a good Pokemon Trainer at any of them, so I have no experience except for the random wifi ones.

Cris, if I were to guess, I'd say that Charizard's Dair would win, but I also think it's slower...


If my opponent is PT, I get excited once they're offstage, and I usually prepare to Dair. It is possible for Kirby to Footstool after he Dairs, so expect this from good Kirbys. It makes it even harder to recover.

Watch out for Stone edgeguards. I don't use Stone much, but when I do, I make it count. It will only KO if you're at a fairly high percent (usually over 100) or it stagespikes. It's pretty hard to avoid though, if the Kirby times it well.

Like T1mmy said, SDI the Fthrow->Uair combo. It is NOT a 50% damage combo, by any means. It actually does a measly 18%, and people get scared of it and overestimate the crap out of it. Every character can SDI out of it. If you have a fast enough attack, you can hit Kirby after the Fthrow. I don't know if PT has any moves that can do this...would Charizard's Up B work? Squirtle's Up B?

I've heard that Bullet Seed owns Ivysaur and Charizard pretty hard, so watch out for that. Flamethrower is also really deadly with Kirby. Water Gun (if that's what it's called) isn't so useful for Kirby, he can edgeguard very well without it, and you'll rarely see him take this power.

Rock Smash is hard for us to beat, so we'll have to play carefully against Charizard.

Final Cutter is really laggy, so if your opponent is dumb enough to use it onstage when you're fairly close, just rolldodge into Kirby, avoiding the shockwave, and punish him with a grab or quick attack.

This is one match-up that I really wish that I had the ability to switch from Squirtle to Charizard in the middle of a stock. If you do Squirtle for the first half/then Charizard for the second half/tank, then it would be so cool.

Sadly, you really can't. I don't see anything I want to add, but I will agree with steeler on the fact that you should pretty much stay grounded with Squirtle. Oh, but along side your jabs/grabs, also put in Ftilt. That attack is crazy hot at linking into jabs and pretty much itself at low percents.

One thing that always makes me get mad when I play Kirby is that it seems he can shield grab just about everything, even some of Ivysaur's attacks.

I seem to remember that Squirtle can Nair or some aerial to hit Kirby as he regrabs him in the middle of that throw combo. You don't get out of it, but you tack on some damage, at least.

I find that camping with Razor leaves can really be effective until Kirby is close up. I tend to do a retreating back air or if I feel like I wanna do a close combat fight, I just use Nair to do the work. Ivysaurs ground game is superior to Kirbys ground game because of the dtilt and utilt and Kirby barely has any range to even hit Ivysaur. Kirby is a light character so Ivysaurs Uair should kill her at 90% or higher.

PkTrainerCris said:

Does charizard's dair beat kirby's uair?? Im not sure...

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I haven't tested it, but I'd wager on Charizard's D-air winning. Kirby's priority is bad with the majority of his attacks.

CHOMPY said:

Kirby is a light character so Ivysaurs Uair should kill her at 90% or higher.

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Kirby is not a "her".

charizard dair should definitely win, that move is really disjointed for no reason.

great post timmy. i doubt there's much more to be said, but i'll keep this open a day or two longer so other trainers can add input if needed.

Watergun gimps kirbys upB in the same sense it does against Ike, so that would help in the matchup. Situational, but still. Watch out for fthrow>hammer on early % it IS inescapable. Against ivysaur its especially deadly as it can lead to a barrage of bairs that will inevitably lead to loss of a stock.

Imo, don't go ivy. At all. Switch from squirtle at about 80-90%. if ivy dies, hopefully zard will get the kill. If ivy gets the kill, great, hit them with as much damage as possible before you die.

Rsmash will interrupt kirbys combos if you DI away far enough, and with some luck it'll lead to a grab, tilt or smash... flameguarding will get some free percent and probably eliminate all of kirbys jumps.

Play this game a little campier than usual. Space and run. Don't try and combo cos odds are it'll turn around happen to you.

Oh and watch out for dair approach. Dair>fsmash kills.

F-throw to Hammer is not inescapable, at any percent. Just DI away and either Air Dodge or jump away from the Hammer.

Flameguarding won't take away Kirby's jumps (unless that Kirby is playing poorly). Even if the Kirby doesn't float around the attack, he can use a Final Cutter to cut through the flames and land on Charizard's head.

BTW: Kirby's F-special when used in the air is called the "Giant Swing" (the name coming from Kirby Super Star & Super Star Ultra).

Charizards flamethrower is loooooooong and its happened to me while playing good Kirby mains before. Its long enough that you can lose all your jumps, and most PT mains will release flamethrower before you get close enough to attack.

oh yeah this reminds me

i played a kirby in pools at WHOBO who almost took my spot in bracket. i beat him by being really gay. flamethrower is great! squirtle dancing around and punishing stuff also works. ivysaur razor leaf and swat away kirby's approaches.

Unfortunately for Kirby, his most viable approach is bair, so they tend to bait you into approaching in hope of scoring a grab combo. Don't fall for that.
Stay back and force THEM to approach, pushing them into a less than desirable position. From there, your battle is a lot easier.

Uair juggles are a pain so keep zard out of the air. uair knocks you high enough that after you dodge you can get hit by another one.

Kirbys final cutter has no super armour, so you can spike him during it if your timing is right.

I used to main Kirby (when PT was my secondary), so I can probably help a fair bit in this matchup.

I've played against friends before and whether or not they used kirby as a main, they still did decent when they fought me. From my experience, Squirtle does really good against Kirby and he can match him in the air. Ivysaur isnt that bad, her nair is effective and if you get kirby to a high enough % you can kill Kirby early. Charz is the same. I found rock smash is really good against kirby. i dont know how effective BS or flame thrower would be in this match up, I would assume that flamethrower wouldnt do that much unless you got kirby in a corner, Bs might be more3 effective b/t the two.

Kirby is annoying as hell, but in recent times, I've learned that it's not so bad. I'd go so far as to call the matchup even.

Kirby can't approach, so take full advantage of it.

I'll post more when I get home; Psych class now.

Basically what Timmy said
btw we have the matchups as 55/45 vs Squirtle, 60/40 vs Ivy, and 50/50 vs Charizard - even if these arent ultimately the ratios you guys come up with, they should be in the same order (Charizard even or better than Squirtle, Ivy worst of the three)

Also, i like vermiis' avi

Char vs kirby MAY be neutral because charizard doesnt have much trouble KOing kirby ( high vertical kill potential + light weight... do the maths..), ignoring that way kirby's tools to dont get edgeguarded.... and charizard can stop kirby's approaches kinda easy (flamethrower, rock smash), an he haz da shiledgrab.
Ivy is all about razor leafing when kirby is far and stopping all his approaches (ivy is good on that, specially aerial approaches), but when kirby gets in its **** time :S.

t!MmY said:

BTW: Kirby's F-special when used in the air is called the "Giant Swing" (the name coming from Kirby Super Star & Super Star Ultra).

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except you're the only one that calls it that XD

Steeler said:

i beat him by being really gay.

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yeah, Brawl

TheReflexWonder said:

Diddy Kong is annoying as hell

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fixed

Kirby can't approach, so take full advantage of it.

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I hear this all the time :[

I still don't understand what defines the ability to approach versus the inability to approach...could you elaborate? How are the three Pokemon better at approaching?

Asdioh said:

I hear this all the time :[

I still don't understand what defines the ability to approach versus the inability to approach...could you elaborate? How are the three Pokemon better at approaching?

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Basically, if you want to start something, like a grab combo or a Smash attack (for the sake of argument), you have to deal with the opponent's moves to defend himself.

Because Kirby's aerial mobility is utterly terrible, the only safe and not-obvious thing Kirby can do in the air is a B-Air while moving backwards. If the opponent just watches out for it and doesn't run into it, it's not going to affect them while they're on the ground.

He has a pretty good grab, but it's hardly abuseable. A jump backwards should stop that as almost any character. A spotdodge is a good bet and leaves Kirby punishable after a whiffed grab.

Squirtle has the least amount of range of the three, and that makes him easy fodder for shield-grabs and getting outranged by Kirby's various ranged moves...but if you don't go towards him, then Kirby can't do any of that easily. Kirby's immediate B-Air goes over Squirtle's head, and Squirtle can air camp all day until he gets a better positioning to fight, if he even CHOOSES to fight, since it's not like Kirby can catch him anyway. Squirtle can, however, make use of a pivot jump'd B-Air to land quick hits and get damage slowly but surely, and Water Gun works decently for changing positioning, because Kirby isn't agile enough to easily avoid all of it. Mainly though, Squirtle's constant jumping around forces Kirby to take the fight to the air...which Squirtle controls by a very great margin.

Ivysaur can (and pretty much has to) outspace Kirby. If Ivysaur keeps a barrage of well-timed and mixed-up Back-Airs, Kirby simply can't get in via his own B-Air, and it's really difficult to get in on the ground. F-Tilt, D-Tilt and grab attempts from Ivysaur make it even harder to get in on the ground, so Kirby cannot approach.

Charizard's short-hopped F-Air and B-Air tack on damage and outrange Kirby's ground approaches. Kirby doesn't move fast enough in the air to get around Flamethrower to punish, so use it as much as you can when he's on the ground. D-Tilt, Rock Smash, and Flamethrower make it very difficult for Kirby to move forward at all without taking major damage. Approaching with Flamethrower is pretty viable for Charizard here, as long as you watch out for a roll behind you.

So, as a result, Kirby can't use his nice tilts and other stuff to outrange you (or a lot of characters, really; this is why Kirby is a mediocre character). If you just avoid moving forward into tilts and B-Airs, Kirby can't DO anything, outside of hope the opponent messes up a very easy procedure...

yo asdioh, yeah, more or less to approach would be being able to get in range for your attacks. In this case imo, PT has the full ability to keep someone like kirby at arms length.

i played against infinity's kirby last weekend and i learned some things

avoid the grab at low percentages i did this by jumping around and landing in front of him just barely out of his grab range to bait a grab, then i punished
Abuse squirtles fair
Squirtle seems the be the best poke for the job
spam ivys bair switch out to charizard mid percents, this will avoid being gimped and also avoid charizard getting combo's by the gonzo combos.

lol I abuse Squirtle's Fair anyway, I think that is why alot of people hate my squirtle is because I get them with my airs.

People are hatin' on Ivy way too much, really the matchup isn't that bad. Playing a Kirby, they have to approach (with a crappy approach no less) and Ivysaur really does well when the opponent has to approach, and not him. It makes it very easy to space, so as long as you don't get grabbed or swallowed you should feel fairly confident that you can do well. Stay away from the ledge, you can kill Kirby very early with U-Smash, U-air, or F-Smash, but that won't matter if he gimps you. Keep up the Short hopped razor leafs, and focus on spacing the match. Its hardly 60-40 if Kirby is forced to approach and has bad approach options and is going up against one of the best disjointed hitboxes in the game (b-air is so sexy.) When Ivy spaces right and keeps up the projectile, Kirby is put at a disadvantage which is difficult to work around. If he does, Ivy is in danger though, so be ready to throw out a D-smash or grab Kirby and get him the heck away from you. Overall, I'd like to call it an even matchup, but while Kirby has a hard time getting inside Ivy's defenses, he'll wreck hell when he does. I'd put it at a 55-45 Kirby's advantage.

Charizard is 55-45 Kirby's advantage, and Squirtle is 50-50.