MetaKnight Banned Tournaments: Give it a Try

For those of you who do not know me, my name is Xyro. I run one of the MOST successful tournament series in the history of Brawl(HOBO). I have had people come from ALL 4 regions to attend my events(my most recent event brought in 140 players such as m2k/dsf/lain/dojo) so i have seen MANY styles and have gazed upon MANY MANY 1vs1/2vs2 results. But there is some thing i have ALWAYS thought about and have only done ONE TIME(well in 2 weeks it will be 2 times but w/e). Holding more metaknight banned tournaments!

Right here and right now, i ask ALL of my fellow TOs to please do a Metaknight banned event! If you already have or are going to, please post the results in this thread. There is some criteria i would like for you to follow.

1. make sure the event has AT LEAST 13 players before making the results thread.

2. Please post the LINK to the results thread.

3. Make sure the results thread has a date/location/entry fee/turn out #

4. Please put a "*" by each player than normally would use metaknight.


This data is VERY VALUABLE and we need as much of it as we can. Btw, if you have not ran a metaknight banned event, please give it ONE shot. I have ran one in the past and the people here in texas said it was probably thier 1st or 2nd most ENJOYABLE tournament they have ever been to. Just knowing metaknight will not be present MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. So yea, please realize i AM NOT trying to make "meta ban" a tournament standard in ANY way, im simply requesting results from them and asking people to give it a shot.


PS: there may be spelling errors in this post. i apologize but i have alot i gotta take care of.

Xyro77 said:

full results are here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204685


This event happened at Lee College in Baytown,Tx on November 8th 2008. 59 people showed up to this event(we didnt advertise this time).

Oh also, this was HOUSTON's first NO METAKNIGHT tournie(this also lowered turnout compared to hobo 11).




1: FlipHop (Diddy)
2: Lee (Lucario)= meta user
3: RoyR (Marth)
4: Ultamate Razer (snake)
5: DMG (wario)
5: Sethlon (falco)
7: Sudai (rob)
7: Hylian (GW/diddy)
9: Xyro (SAMUS!!!)
9: Santi (Young Link)
9: Gnes (kirby)
9: Dojo (marth/diddy)=meta user
13: Bwett (yoshi)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic)
13: CY (falco)
13: Kalo (wolf)
17: phoenixalpha (kucas/lucario)
17: D4BA (snake/falco)= meta user
17: T-Rex (snake)
17: Ran (snake)
17: Mocha (zelda)
17: SandTrap (lucario)= meta user
17: Cyphus (DK)
17: TakeUrLife (marth)
25: HeyTallMan (lucas)
25: Melee1 (IC)
25: Crypt (wolf/snake)
25: Light (shiek/GW)
25: RT (lucario)
25: Deviation
25: BlueJay (mario)
25: BadNewsBear (pika/wolf)
33: Final (ZS)
33: Gabe (GW)
33: Wemp
33: Cake (fox)
33: JS (ness)
33: Wotts (ZS)
33: Tyle (dk/falco)
33: PopTart (wario)
33: Dphat (marth)
33: Kown (pit)
33: Onigiri
33: Furbs (yoshi)
33: KRD (IC/shiek)
33: Chris
33: Seiya (pit)
33: Esca? (diddy)
49: Hiza (falcon)
49: Shiken
49: Kira (marth/snake)
49: Nefarious (young link)
49: Cha0tic
49: PhantomX (wario)
49: Pierre (lucas)
49: Ozz (ZS)
49: Pipper (ike/falcon)
49: Nore (peach)
49: Zori (olimar)

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Ax00x0 said:

Well Xyro, it's not much, but here's what I gathered from my end(New Mexico)...ask Dekar/or I'll ask Dekar for better results, and I thin Z-man was right about us banning him at the start of November. He also probably has more tourny listings, as I missed any from Dec. 29-Jan-30.


Scroll down to find some of the results:

Intel LANfest (not sure, there wa smaybe 13-15 people here...Dekar might have better results. We didn't keep good track because only 2 of the regulars were there, and we *****, lulz).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5669032
Dekar=Diddy
Me=Pit
Gekko=Snake

This one was March 2:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=76313&highlight=gamers&page=464

Singles results:
1st Overgames (Luigi)
2nd Dekar (Diddy Kong ))
3rd JT! (ROB/Falco)
4th Zman (**** Lucas)
5th-8th Davis (Wolf)
Austin (Wolf/Lucario)
DWRK (Yoshi)
Xion (Fox/Ike?)

March 14:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=76313&highlight=results&page=479

1: Dekar (Diddy)
2: Z-man (Lucas)
3: Goyf (gw/d3
4: Overgames (Luigi)
5: Jt (ROB)
5: Ax (Pit)
7: Erch(d3)
7: Isac (Pikachu)
9: Cajun (Snake)
9: Grim (Not sure)
9: Tyrant (Lucario)
9: Smurf (Not sure)
13: Sarge (Not sure)

That's all I could find, bit it should help. It should also b noted that without MK, the results do tend to change-hell, I took 5th, then 9th, and then 9th again in the last 3. Dekar got 4th in the one we did 2 days ago, but 1st-1st-2nd in the last 3, and so on. Hopes this helps!

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first

brawl sucks

SSBMaaron said:

first

brawl sucks

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lmao


I'll run this idea by my region and see what they think.

What do you hope to prove by doing this? I think no matter what, MK will dominate at Apex, Niagra, EVO, and Genesis

yeksson said:

What do you hope to prove by doing this? I think no matter what, MK will dominate at Apex, Niagra, EVO, and Genesis

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what am i trying to prove? Thats a secret. All i want are the results of non meta tournaments.

i think xyro is trying to show if top players stay in the same rankings, if certain characters flourish/dominate w/o mk, and if any new characters start to show up in the top rankings.

correct senior?

Xyro77 said:

what am i trying to prove? Thats a secret. All i want are the results of non meta tournaments.

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Possibly that top placing MK users will still place top with other characters?

But that's just my guess.

Edit: Snare beat me to it.

I think i understand wut u are trying to do and its a smart idea...DIVERSITY

There have been several MK banned tourneyz in MD/VA already. I know Sin and Deez hosted one and I think HAT also hosted one.

I would go looking for the resultz but it was back in November.

Honestly, MK is my secondary, and I found I do better at MK banned tourneyz not cause I don't have to fight MK but cause I'm not going my MK. I go MK cause he's easier to play than my main (Kirby) but my MK is plain and simple terrible. When I go all Kirby I do alot better than when I play MK. I've beaten plenty of MKz in tourney with Kirby.

M2K placed 4th at an MK banned tourney (the one HAT hosted) but according to what I heard they did split, but still, I think he lost to Chillin's Falco with D3.

The answer is simple If Metaknight is banned you just have to go down the Tier list. Snake and if not him DDD or Falco and the list keeps going and going.........

but on the positive side there is a little bit more variety

kozimoto said:

The answer is simple If Metaknight is banned you just have to go down the Tier list. Snake and if not him DDD or Falco and the list keeps going and going.........

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Wrong.

Very, very wrong.

Kawaii Poyo said:

M2K placed 4th at an MK banned tourney (the one HAT hosted) but according to what I heard they did split, but still, I think he lost to Chillin's Falco with D3.

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yo I'm really tired of people bringing this up cuz it's dumb
-they did not tell me that tourney banned MK until I got to DK smash's house a few hours (the night before) the tourney
- i hadn't used ddd for months
-despite this, i managed to beat meep with DDD among several other ppl
-i lost to chillins falco in winners finals cuz CGs to 60% are like unavoidable and then falco can just SHL to rapid A then illusion away
-i did better than atomsk did when atomsk and chillin fought in winners finals in the same matchup (ddd vs falco)
-me and azen won teams without losing a game still
-we split top 4 in singles and i only lost 1 set but they put me as 4th for no reason anyway

MK banned events seem dumb to me but I know they can be appealing, he's not unbeatable however as we all know, I for one like the challenge.

Mew2King said:

yo I'm really tired of people bringing this up cuz it's dumb
-they did not tell me that tourney banned MK until I got to DK smash's house a few hours (the night before) the tourney
- i hadn't used ddd for months
-despite this, i managed to beat meep with DDD among several other ppl
-i lost to chillins falco in winners finals cuz CGs to 60% are like unavoidable and then falco can just SHL to rapid A then illusion away
-i did better than atomsk did when atomsk and chillin fought in winners finals in the same matchup (ddd vs falco)
-me and azen won teams without losing a game still
-we split top 4 in singles and i only lost 1 set but they put me as 4th for no reason anyway

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As someone who was there in person the information in this post is true, if they played it out who knows who would of won.

results and links please

Xyro rocks, and I'm curious as to what the results would be as well.

That is all.

Seeing a Metaknight main place lower in an MK banned tournament than he normally would if he was using Metaknight does not prove that Metaknight is broken.

The majority of tournaments do not ban Metaknight, so obviously MK mains are not going to be as well practiced with their non-MK secondary. Even if they were, it wouldn't prove that Metaknight was broken.

These results, no matter what they are, will not prove that Metaknight is broken. Will not prove that Metaknight users are only good because of Metaknight.



Also-- who will keep Ice Climbers in check with Metaknight gone?

Oh wait, you want to ban IC infinites too... and DeDeDe infinites... a and wall infinites... and release infinites... lol, how much more are we gonna try to ban next? Let's just ban everyone and everything but C. Falcon, weeee! Such a joke.

MMM, I like you. I like you because I disagree with everything you say, but I like the way you say it. XD

I don't believe this would ever prove that MetaKnight is broken, but I also don't think thats what this is trying to prove.
I think what this is trying to show is that without MK the diversity in tournament results is far greater. Without MK characters that wouldn't ussually place high start to place high and the range of characters that perform well in tournaments is greater.
I don't believe that MK mains are good just because they use MK. People who main MetaKnight are still just as skilled as players who don't, but as a result of using MetaKnight they do tend to place higher.

In regards to banning infinites, thats a difficult one because in theory they are broken because it brakes matchups. There are a number of characters who cannot defeat D3, its an unwinnable matchup. No matchup should be unwinnable as it forces people to learn a secondary character which they shouldn't be forced to do, its simply not fair.
But if you were to ban them it seriously hinders and reduces the options of the characters who use them and often their metagame relies on them.
Its a very difficult issue that (aside from using codes which no one seems willing to do for some reason) doesn't seem possible to resolve. The fact is that the game is poorly balanced and as a result there are things which ruin certain matchups, its a sad truth that we either have to live with, find a way to deal with or use codes to remedy.

The fact of the matter, is Brawl is really really lame. The game mechanics were intentionally designed to keep the game from developing this far, and frankly you shouldn't have to balance or ban or justify anything. You either play the game the way it's made, or you don't play it at all.

auroreon said:

MMM, I like you. I like you because I disagree with everything you say, but I like the way you say it. XD

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lol, thanks. I'm glad to hear it, haha. I enjoy fervently disagreeing with people who I still like as well, haha.

auroreon said:

No matchup should be unwinnable as it forces people to learn a secondary character which they shouldn't be forced to do, its simply not fair.

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This is completely incorrect. Having to learn a secondary is not "broken". It is something that you SHOULD have to do as a good player. The game involves counter picking bad matchups. Banning the things that make those matchups bad is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous because you are saying "I don't want to learn the way around the strategy that my opponent is using, so that strategy should be banned". This applies to IC, DeDeDe, MK, Snake, Olimar, and all of the other "annoying" characters.

You cannot ban something simply because you are too lazy to overcome it. That is not practical. Besides, even if you play a character with no true bad matchups (MK, Snake, Marth, etc.), you should still have a secondary because even if the matchup is "even", when you are Counter Picking you would be better off playing as a character who has a better than 50/50 matchup against your opponent.

I think that far too often people look at counter picking a stage or character as a "hassle". Like, they'd rather play every match on Battlefield or Smashville as their "main". This is a terrible idea! Counter picking is one of the best aspects of this game competitively because it challenges the player to learn new stages, strategies, and characters. Trying to remove counter picking by banning "annoying" stages or "broken" characters goes completely against the whole point of playing competitively.

I think that people who are pro-ban MK or pro-ban Infinites are trying to make friendly manners and playstyles competitive. This is just silly if you think about it. These bans have no place in competition.

I mean, I love friendlies. I play Samus / Pokemon Trainer / Ness a LOT in friendlies. I used to want to main Samus, but she is TERRIBLE, lol. Even though she's awesome, she's TERRIBLE. This doesn't mean that I should petition to have DeDeDe infinites removed from the game, though. It means I should learn a way around them, and the way around them is to not play Samus. (Samus is terrible for many more reasons than just DeDeDe though, lol)

Friendly Brawl and Competitive Brawl are two separate games.

otg said:

The fact of the matter, is Brawl is really really lame.

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I totally disagree. I think Brawl is fantastic, even with all of the gay stuff in it. I love the gay stuff. Overcoming something like an IC chaingrab is a great feeling in competition. It's also totally possible if you practice. I have an IC/Diddy main in my crew and I can fully say that the IC infinite is NOT broken.

otg said:

You either play the game the way it's made, or you don't play it at all.

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I agree with this with the exception of things that are obviously totally broken (items, ridiculous stages like mario circuit, etc., infinite cape glitch).

otg said:

The fact of the matter, is Brawl is really really lame. The game mechanics were intentionally designed to keep the game from developing this far, and frankly you shouldn't have to balance or ban or justify anything. You either play the game the way it's made, or you don't play it at all.

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If we all had your attitude the human race would not have evolved far enough to have created video games yet.
Yes, it is true that its unfortuanate that Brawl has these problems, but it is in no way a reason not to play the game and it certainly isn't a reason why we can't try to improve it. "play the game the way it's made", The way the game was made is flawed, but why should we just accept that and do nothing about it if we have the power to. The reason we play the game is because we enjoy it and if we can increase the enjoyment we get from it by improving upon the "way it was made" then there is no reason why we shouldn't.

Well, this only has ten people, but if it's of any use...we did a small 10 person house tournament back in October last year.

I'll try to talk WA into having a notable MK banned tournament.

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=2955

1st place:
Chip (Toon Link)

2nd place:
Valdens (G&W)

3rd place:
Jamnt0ast (ROB)

4th place:
Itakio (Pikachu)

5: Deva (Link)
5: Praxis (Peach)
7: Maos (Zelda)
7: MasterKoga (Luigi)
9: brdy (G&W/Peach)
9: Kamaji (Snake)

Also-- who will keep Ice Climbers in check with Metaknight gone?

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Ice Climbers' worst matchup is ROB, not Metaknight. Snake is also a bad matchup. Toon Link and even Link can be argued as counters (good luck chaingrabbing a character that can hold a bomb to interrupt your infinites while still throwing two other projectiles, plus spacing you with zair).

They might rise in the tier list especially being a Falco counter, but they're not going to be top.

Oh wait, you want to ban IC infinites too... and DeDeDe infinites... a and wall infinites... and release infinites...

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Nobody said anything about banning that stuff.

Link does have a decent matchup versus the IC, I totally agree. I play with Legan at least once every week and just last night he almost beat Future from my crew in a set, who mains IC/Diddy.

With the IC, perhaps I was too exact/final with my words... I agree that IC would not be top, I do not think they ever will be (yet people try to ban their grabs, which is asinine). Obviously since they can be stage countered and character countered by Snake/ROB as well... but they will still run far too rampant because you are removing one of very few characters that competes against them (no one really plays Link ). Ban one thing, you have to ban 5 others.

Nobody said anything about banning that stuff.

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Goes with the territory. Also it's in almost all of Xyro's tournament rules so it's safe to assume that his MK banned tournaments will have infinites banned as well, which would be even more silly.

This...really won't prove anything to be quite honest. FOR THE MOST PART.....we have the same Problem in Melee. It's Fox/Marth winning tournaments. If you took that away...it'd start a pretty endless cycle. I'm sick of seeing the horrid lack of diversity in most tournaments. Have you seen the last couple European tournaments? It's like mostly Fox/Sheik. Nothing else. Then you get Peach when Armada plays. In the finals of one tournament alone (winners/losers/grand) you saw like Fox picked 59 times or some ridiculous number like that. Sheik about 49. It was something outrageous like that.

Sure...you're going to see a lot of MK. A lot of what I've been seeing lately, though is MK/(insert character here). It's getting better...slowly but surely. If you took a person's Main away from them...ANYONE would do worse than they would without it. (Unless they are one of those people that consistently practice with other characters.) Why just MK? Why not make everyone not use their Main? If MK mains can't use MK, then why shouldn't other people be suffering as well?

I personally find MK to be rather broken and annoying, but this idea is a bit discouraging. What are you going to prove about a person by taking their Main away? That they won't do as well without their Main? Give them some time to put as much work into whatever new main they have and they'll be right back to winning tournaments again. They might suffer slightly for a SHORT period of time, but I really doubt that it's going to prove anything else.

Rain(ame) said:

What are you going to prove about a person by taking their Main away? That they won't do as well without their Main? Give them some time to put as much work into whatever new main they have and they'll be right back to winning tournaments again. They might suffer slightly for a SHORT period of time, but I really doubt that it's going to prove anything else.

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I think the thing to prove is not whether or not MK mains do better or worse, but whether or not another character steps in and wins everything or if the top 8 become more diverse.

It may or may not be. It really depends on the tournament. I don't know how accurate some of these are going to be. Especially depending on the events occurring at said tournaments. (people attending, entering, etc.) If anything...you'll get a quasi-accurate idea. I wouldn't see it as proving much.

Edit: That statement isn't trashing the idea, just saying that the accuracy might not exactly be what you need.

MetalMusicMan said:

Link does have a decent matchup versus the IC, I totally agree. I play with Legan at least once every week and just last night he almost beat Future from my crew in a set, who mains IC/Diddy.

With the IC, perhaps I was too exact/final with my words... I agree that IC would not be top, I do not think they ever will be (yet people try to ban their grabs, which is asinine). Obviously since they can be stage countered and character countered by Snake/ROB as well... but they will still run far too rampant because you are removing one of very few characters that competes against them (no one really plays Link ). Ban one thing, you have to ban 5 others.



Goes with the territory. Also it's in almost all of Xyro's tournament rules so it's safe to assume that his MK banned tournaments will have infinites banned as well, which would be even more silly.

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Actually, in my opinion, banning MK *removes* the need to make such rules, and in fact, banning MK *and* the Ice Climbers CGs creates a problem. I don't agree with all of Xyro's rules.

I believe that with MK banned, Falco becomes the best character. He has no bad matchups in the top ten on the tier list except a slight disadvantage to G&W, and serves as a hard Dedede counter and soft Snake counter.

Lower tiered characters like Ice Climbers/Pikachu/Kirby/Lucario all serve as hard or soft Falco counters, and will be played more frequently. Interestingly, the strongest Falco counters- Ice Climbers, Pikachu, and Kirby- are also Dedede counters that are heavily underused in the tournament scene (especially IC and Pika, which have 65:35 or worse matchups on Dedede).

MK ban = more Falco = less Dedede + more IC and Pikachu counters = a LOT less Dededes. Which reduces the "need" to ban Dedede's infinites (a need which doesn't even exist, IMO. Read David Sirlin's book, "Playing to Win". A MK ban is arguable by his standards. A Dedede CG is not.).

Remove the Ice Climbers infinite, and Falco has very few bad matchups while Dedede becomes more prominent as a Snake/Wario counter, etc etc making Falco the SOLID best, instead of vying with Snake for top spot.


MK banned + IC infinites legal = perfect balance IMO.


I just don't see how you think ICs will run rampant. They've got multiple hard counter matchups that they won't ever win (ROB/Toon Link/Snake), and plenty of notable disadvantaged/frustrating matchups (Pikachu, Peach, Diddy, Wario, G&W, and Olimar are all very difficult to get a grab on).

Ice Climbers are a great secondary, but a horrible main. They get ***** by the top of the tier list.

If anything, I think we can expect a lot of ROBs from a MK ban. They lose a 70:30 matchup, and serve an important role as a character that can eliminate Snakes and Marths (and completely crush Ice Climbers as a side benefit).


And yeah, as far as Link goes, we have Deva around here. GGs Ice Climbers xD

Here's a meta-banned tournament I helped run in late Februrary....

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=63866

60 competitors $5 entry + $5 venue
1st: Y.B.M (kirby)
2nd: Smash64 (snake)
3rd: Rowan (Peach)
4th: Xisin (Marth)
5th: Infern (Ike)
5th: Spec (Pikachu)
7th: Hilt (Olimar)
7th: Greggu (Luigi)

None of these people actually use metaknight normally, most people that normally main metaknight had already been beaten.

I find it interesting that a Snake has yet to win a MK banned tournament.

I honestly believe that banning MK drops Snake in the tier list.

Delvro beat me to it. -.-

Anyways, thanks for doing something about it Xyro.

otg said:

The fact of the matter, is Brawl is really really lame. The game mechanics were intentionally designed to keep the game from developing this far, and frankly you shouldn't have to balance or ban or justify anything. You either play the game the way it's made, or you don't play it at all.

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We've already banned and modified things to make all the smash games competitive as we see fit >_>.

Praxis said:

Read David Sirlin's book, "Playing to Win". A MK ban is arguable by his standards. A Dedede CG is not.

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I know and love Sirlin's work. I disagree that an MK ban would be by his standards, I don't even think it's arguable. Banning MK is 100% against his standards. MK =/= Akuma. MK = Sagat. This is blatantly obvious.

I do not see how more Falcos, more IC, more Pikachus, less DeDeDe is oh-so-much-better, nor do I see how banning MK makes this happen more significantly other than filling the void of the people who once played MK.

You have a lot of MK/Falco/DeDeDe/Snake already. A decent amount of IC and now more Pikachus are already rising with the new chain grab discoveries. Banning MK will do nothing to accentuate these things; they are already in motion.

Anther said:

We've already banned and modified things to make all the smash games competitive as we see fit >_>.

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Yep, I totally agree with this. Obviously we have to. I do not think that Metaknight = Spear Pillar, though. I do not think that Metaknight = Smash balls. He is nowhere close in terms of "breaking the game".

I know and love Sirlin's work. I disagree that an MK ban would be by his standards, I don't even think it's arguable. Banning MK is obviously 100% against his standards. MK =/= Akuma. MK = Sagat. This is blatantly obvious.

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I agree with this statement, actually. MK = O. Sagat.

Did you read Sirlin's statements about that? He pretty clearly showed O. Sagat as the "grey area" of banning and admitted that there were positive sides to the argument and he was unable to come to a conclusion as to whether or not banning O. Sagat was the right decision. (Japan banned him, US didn't. Yes, Japan's ban was technically "soft", but Japan doesn't do hardbans- they even only softbanned Akuma).


Metaknight is technically WORSE than O. Sagat.

Quick quote for thought:

David Sirlin said:

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics.

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We've done this for a year. MK doesn't have a counter.


Now, the part that applies to MK.

David Sirlin said:

The character in question is the mysteriously named “Old Sagat.” Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he’s not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma’s air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn’t count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn’t even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don’t know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don’t have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can’t beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

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O. Sagat is defined as "in the ballpark of reasonableness". i.e., anything less isn't worth discussing.

MK is worse. Consider what makes Sagat so bad:

1: Heavily reduces character variety. (remind you of MK)?

2: Very easy ("Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.”")- other characters have to put in a lot more effort to win. Game ends up somewhat monotonous.

3: Top three in the game, not clearly the best.

MK matches #1 and #2, and is actually worse than #3 because he's clearly the best character in the game by a wide margin.

MK's not as bad as Akuma, but he's worse than O. Sagat. As Sirlin defined O. Sagat as "barely in the ballpark of reasonableness" for a ban, then by Sirlin standards, Metaknight is reasonable to discuss banning. Unlike Sirlin's statements about O. Sagat, we DO have MK vs MK matches everywhere. He's clearly worse.

I'm not stating outright that Sirlin would ban him. I am saying that Sirlin wouldn't immediately dismiss it and might very well agree that a ban is necessary.

You have a lot of MK/Falco/DeDeDe/Snake already. A decent amount of IC and now more Pikachus are already rising with the new chain grab discoveries. Banning MK will do nothing to accentuate these things; they are already in motion.

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Banning MK means a lot of players will switch to Falco. More Falcos mean more people will pick up ICs and Pikachu as counterpicks for these characters, hurting Dedede as a side result as Falco/IC/Pikachu all hard counter him.

Banning IC infinites makes Falco and Dedede really good, and doesn't otherwise unbalance the game, and by Sirlin standards have no basis for banning. That's all I'm stating.

Yep, I totally agree with this. Obviously we have to. I do not think that Metaknight = Spear Pillar, though. I do not think that Metaknight = Smash balls. He is nowhere close in terms of "breaking the game".

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I would argue that Metaknight is more gamebreaking than Food. We banned Food.

Praxis, I would like to say, before retorting extravagantly, that I appreciate the time that you took to put that post together and that you made some very solid and respectable points. Just about every one of them is incorrect, though. Here's why:


I said MK = Sagat.

Your argument rests on the fact that MK is worse than O Sagat, though. You are comparing apples to oranges here in terms of our statements I do not agree with this. I was referring to Sagat, anyway. Not O Sagat. I will address your points, though.

praxis said:

MK is worse.

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Putting this in italics does not make it true

praxis said:

1: Heavily reduces character variety. (remind you of MK)?

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No, this reminds me of DeDeDe. MK does not heavily reduce character variety any more than any other top tier. If he does, it is barely so. You saying "MK = O Sagat" would only be true if MK also did what DeDeDe does to certain low tiers in addition to what MK already does.

praxis said:

2: Very easy ("Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.”")- other characters have to put in a lot more effort to win. Game ends up somewhat monotonous.

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Metaknight is not difficult to play... but I do not think that MK is oh-so-easy to play as a lot of people say he is. Many who first pick him up kill themselves rampantly for a long time before they get used to using their own recovery as their main kill / gimp.

Do you honestly feel that MK is easier to play than Snake and DeDeDe? I do not think it is even close. I would put Metaknight's difficulty at a medium scale if I had to rate it. He's just as hard as Kirby or similar characters to play. He is not "difficult", obviously though: much easier than Falco / Peach / Pika / Link / etc.

praxis said:

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing.

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You are not reading your own quoted advice from Sirlin. 1 year =/= 10 years. Further more, even after 10 years, Sirlin is VERY clear that it is STILL a gray area. He is also very clear that when the game was in it's early stage, it would have been stupid to call for a ban on O Sagat.

You are directly opposing your own quoted evidence.



To summarize, MK = Sagat. MK =/= O Sagat.

However, if I gave you the benefit of the doubt and agreed that MK = O Sagat, then he would still not be warranted to be banned. Not even close.

Praxis, I would like to say, before retorting extravagantly, that I appreciate the time that you took to put that post together and that you made some very solid and respectable points. Just about every one of them is incorrect, though. Here's why:

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I'm glad we can debate this rationally then Same to you, thanks for taking the time to reply in depth.

Your argument rests on the fact that MK is worse than O Sagat, though. You are comparing apples to oranges here in terms of our statements I do not agree with this. I was referring to Sagat, anyway. Not O Sagat. I will address your points, though.

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Perhaps I missed your meaning, but I do consider MK to be a better O. Sagat and perhaps worse.

No, this reminds me of DeDeDe. MK does not heavily reduce character variety any more than any other top tier. If he does, it is barely so.

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Look at tournament results; MK ditto finals are common. This is the reduction of character variety I'm referring to, not the "don't play or you auto lose" style that Dedede brings about; very few other characters can win.

Do you honestly feel that MK is easier to play than Snake and DeDeDe? I do not think it is even close.

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I actually do. I believe MKeach to be 70:30 once the MK fully understands the matchup, and as a result I've been trying to counterpick him. I've tried so far, Diddy, Wario, Snake, and MK.

I now second MK as a MK counterpick. I picked him up in about a day of actually trying to learn the character. Spending the time to actually learn matchups takes longer, since everyone already knows how how to fight him very well, but I actually do better against Chip as MK than as Peach, and Toon Link is an even matchup for Peach >_< I can beat the MK's that beat my Peach handily in MK dittos.

I've also been trying to pick up Snake. You stated MK's recovery is difficult as people suicide- the people suicide because they overestimate his freedom and go too far offstage trying to land gimps xD Snake's C4 recovery is much more difficult (learn the tech timing!), and Dedede's is much more punishable.


Dedede's probably easier to learn against characters that are CGable, but I highly disagree that Snake is easier than MK.

You are not reading your own quoted advice from Sirlin. 1 year =/= 10 years. Further more, even after 10 years, Sirlin is VERY clear that it is STILL a gray area. He is also very clear that when the game was in it's early stage, it would have been stupid to call for a ban on O Sagat.

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I did read this, and it is a good point- however, bans have been called for since, what, September? It was too early then, but now it's getting ridiculous.

Sirlin is clear that it is a gray area, but it's also pretty clear that MK is significantly worse. Street Fighter tournaments weren't reduced to 8/12 top players as O. Sagat a la WHOBO, or any kind of massive O. Sagat dominance, as there were two other characters with just as good if not better matchups. MK overcentralizes the game to a far greater degree than O. Sagat did. O. Sagat had even matchups. MK doesn't.

Praxis said:

I find it interesting that a Snake has yet to win a MK banned tournament.

I honestly believe that banning MK drops Snake in the tier list.

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Yeah, because being able to **** MK is one of Snake's greatest assets.

I'm probably never going to host an MK-banned event. It won't work in NJ.

"****" isn't the term I'd use.
Snake has a winnable matchup against MK. NOT in his favor, but a 45-55 or 40-60 disadvantage can be easily overcome by better matchup knowledge and experience.

Praxis said:

I'm glad we can debate this rationally then Same to you, thanks for taking the time to reply in depth.

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<3

Praxis said:

I did read this, and it is a good point- however, bans have been called for since, what, September? It was too early then, but now it's getting ridiculous.

Sirlin is clear that it is a gray area, but it's also pretty clear that MK is significantly worse. Street Fighter tournaments weren't reduced to 8/12 top players as O. Sagat a la WHOBO, or any kind of massive O. Sagat dominance, as there were two other characters with just as good if not better matchups. MK overcentralizes the game to a far greater degree than O. Sagat did. O. Sagat had even matchups. MK doesn't.

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I just don't see how you can say "it's getting ridiculous" after 1 year. I don't see how you could say it after 3 years. Even if after 5 years you still had 50% MK in the top 10, I would still not say it was bannable.

Let's be honest about WHOBO, by the way. If more top players with non-MK mains had gone, there would have been less MK in the top 10. Maybe there would have been 5, or 6 (doubtful) but there would have been less.

I also don't have a problem with MK centralizing the game because that's exactly what he should be doing as the #1 character. Snake did it, now Metaknight is doing it. The fact that snake only did it for ~6 months or whatever and Metaknight has done it for a year isn't a relevant argument. It's more time, but that doesn't make it unachievable.

Furthermore, I think that it is unreasonable to assess that Metaknight has to be "dethroned" or drop in tier in order to decalre him as "balanced". He can be declared a perfectly (<--haha) balanced character and never drop from the #1 spot.

praxis said:

I've been trying to counterpick him. I've tried so far, Diddy, Wario, Snake, and MK.

I now second MK as a MK counterpick. I picked him up in about a day of actually trying to learn the character. Spending the time to actually learn matchups takes longer, since everyone already knows how how to fight him very well, but I actually do better against Chip as MK than as Peach, and Toon Link is an even matchup for Peach >_< I can beat the MK's that beat my Peach handily in MK dittos.

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My response to this is a strict "...aaaaaaannndddd?"

So you have tried Diddy, Wario, and Snake and none of them have worked out for you. That does not invalidate these characters as capable MK contestants.

I firmly believe that Snake has an advantage on MK, personally. Diddy and Wario both have good matchups that are fully in the realm of possibility versus Metaknight. For instance, Diddy ***** on the stage, Metaknight ***** off the stage. Both characters are very handicapped / overpowered in their own realms and capable of destroying the other.

You chose to go with Metaknight to counter Metaknight over the others because you thought it gave YOU the best chance. It does not infer anything about his "overpowered state" that you chose him in place of the other characters.

I have also chosen MK as a secondary. Not because I believe that Metaknight is the best choice, but because he is MY best choice. It does not infer anything about Metaknight being broken that I secondary him. I also use him for Ice Climbers and Falco matches. Sometimes, I would rather use DeDeDe versus a Metaknight rather than MK ditto, though it depends on how the other MK plays and how well he knows the ditto.

My crewmate who plays Diddy also has a decent Metaknight, but he goes Diddy against me because he plays Diddy much better and it fits his style better. The matchup ratio is roughly the same if you have a good Diddy vs a good MK and if you had an MK ditto.

Basically, the act of lots of people picking up MK to counter MK or whoever does not ring out as a problem to me. It's no different than any other fighting game with a top tier character. At the moment, we are all going through a phase that will probably pass, but even if it doesn't, there still isn't a problem.

MetalMusicMan said:

<3



I just don't see how you can say "it's getting ridiculous" after 1 year. I don't see how you could say it after 3 years. Even if after 5 years you still had 50% MK in the top 10, I would still not say it was bannable.

Let's be honest about WHOBO, by the way. If more top players with non-MK mains had gone, there would have been less MK in the top 10. Maybe there would have been 5, or 6 (doubtful) but there would have been less.

I also don't have a problem with MK centralizing the game because that's exactly what he should be doing as the #1 character. Snake did it, now Metaknight is doing it. The fact that snake only did it for ~6 months or whatever and Metaknight has done it for a year isn't a relevant argument. It's more time, but that doesn't make it unachievable.

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Snake didn't do it for remotely close to 6 months. I'm pretty sure MK had passed him in tournament results only a few months into Brawl.

Furthermore, I think that it is unreasonable to assess that Metaknight has to be "dethroned" or drop in tier in order to decalre him as "balanced". He can be declared a perfectly (<--haha) balanced character and never drop from the #1 spot.

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Fully agreed. There's nothing wrong with being the best character. What he needs is a bad matchup. Brawl is HEAVILY dependent on the counterpick system, and MK is immune to it.

My response to this is a strict "...aaaaaaannndddd?"

So you have tried Diddy, Wario, and Snake and none of them have worked out for you. That does not invalidate these characters as capable MK contestants.

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I think you read this out of context. I was replying to your discussion of "which character is easiest to learn". I found MK a lot easier to play than Snake I practiced Diddy for two weeks, and went to BIO2, housed with Nanerz and trained in the MK matchup under his tutelage for a day.

I picked up MK in a couple days and was performing better against MK's after watching a couple videos of Mew2King for 30 minutes and playing a bunch of friendlies after a tournament.

I firmly believe that Snake has an advantage on MK, personally. Diddy and Wario both have good matchups that are fully in the realm of possibility versus Metaknight. For instance, Diddy ***** on the stage, Metaknight ***** off the stage. Both characters are very handicapped / overpowered in their own realms and capable of destroying the other.

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In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. Diddy wins only by virtue of MK's not knowing the matchup.

I've been to BIO2 and spent time with Nanerz. It's not an even matchup. MK gimps Diddy badly, and can utilize the bananas just as well- the MK's just usually don't know how to do it. Watch Sean fight Nanerz- his MK can dribble the bananas, bananalock the Diddy back and end it with a fsmash out of glide toss.

When you consider that the MK can gimp the Diddy AND kill him normally at significantly lower percentages (Diddy's lack of kill moves shines, especially when the MK smash DI's out of his fsmash and dairs him before the final hit and DI's his throws), I think MK has a clear advantage, though it's still WINNABLE for the Diddy. 60-40 MK IMO.

As for Snake, the top MK's consistently win here. Watch M2K vs Ally and tell me it's even. Even Ally considers it a notable advantage to MK (I've asked him). MK gimps him and destroys him offstage. Snake gets by camping the MK, but MK can predict grenade pulls and punish with grabs and juggle him all day. The MK has to THINK to win, but it's even at absolute BEST and judging by all results, probably in MK's favor.

Wario's the weird one out. Only FICTION has had any success against top level MKs (and only with planking banned- Wario can't deal with it. On that topic, planking is another thing that we had to ban just to keep MK legal :/ ), so it's hard to determine if it's just FICTION outplaying everyone or if Wario might be even on neutrals. The Wario clearly has to do more work in the matchup, and can be stage CP'd (which MK can't), so I still feel the matchup is overall in MK's favor.


MK has no bad matchups, and depending on your level of optimism, may not have any neutrals either :/

I think this is where we differ. You consider MK to have bad matchups. If I felt he did, I wouldn't be arguing for a ban. (also note that I HAVE played against FICTION's Wario, DSF's MK and Snake, DEHF's Falco, Nanerz' Diddy, etc. I have also played the MK/Snake matchup. I'm not just spouting theorycraft xD)

You chose to go with Metaknight to counter Metaknight over the others because you thought it gave YOU the best chance. It does not infer anything about his "overpowered state" that you chose him in place of the other characters.

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Again, I was discussing his ease of use. You're right, if I had been using that to argue him overpowered, it would be a faulty argument.

Basically, the act of lots of people picking up MK to counter MK or whoever does not ring out as a problem to me.

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The reason that it could be considered a problem is if MK is his own worst matchup.

If MK is quite literally his own worst matchup/counter, then we have a serious problem, especially with a game so dependent on counterpicks.



Now, my question to you:
Why is Food banned? It has a much lower effect on the game than Metaknight. Can you support it via Sirlin? Do we have years of testing behind it? Give me a reason.

praxis said:

When you consider that the MK can gimp the Diddy AND kill him normally at significantly lower percentages (Diddy's lack of kill moves shines, especially when the MK smash DI's out of his fsmash and dairs him before the final hit and DI's his throws), I think MK has a clear advantage, though it's still WINNABLE for the Diddy. 60-40 MK IMO.

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I will have trouble arguing this point further since I am sure you know more experienced Diddy's than I do. From what I have seen, however, I would not personally see it as a 60/40 for MK. Perhaps I am uneducated there, but I severely doubt it is that high at the moment.

praxis said:

As for Snake, the top MK's consistently win here. Watch M2K vs Ally and tell me it's even. Even Ally considers it a notable advantage to MK (I've asked him). MK gimps him and destroys him offstage. Snake gets by camping the MK, but MK can predict grenade pulls and punish with grabs and juggle him all day. The MK has to THINK to win, but it's even at absolute BEST and judging by all results, probably in MK's favor.

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I don't think M2K versus anyone is really even

Isn't M2K the only Metaknight that Ally really has a problem with? I thought so...

praxis said:

I picked up MK in a couple days and was performing better against MK's after watching a couple videos of Mew2King for 30 minutes and playing a bunch of friendlies after a tournament.

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Exactly, MK's metagame is far more evolved because of a) who mains him and b) how many people main him. Finding videos / training tips for highly evolved play with Diddy / Wario is much more difficult.

praxis said:

I think this is where we differ. You consider MK to have bad matchups. If I felt he did, I wouldn't be arguing for a ban.

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I wouldn't consider them bad. I would consider them winnable, though. I do not think that he has to have bad matchups to be banned.

praxis said:

(also note that I HAVE played against FICTION's Wario, DSF's MK and Snake, DEHF's Falco, Nanerz' Diddy, etc. I have also played the MK/Snake matchup. I'm not just spouting theorycraft xD)

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Your tournament experience certainly dwarfs my own, I will not even try to debate that, lol.



Well hey, it's been fun spinning my tires in the mud here with you. Maybe again some time Good show mate.

Praxis said:

In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. Diddy wins only by virtue of MK's not knowing the matchup.

I've been to BIO2 and spent time with Nanerz. It's not an even matchup. MK gimps Diddy badly, and can utilize the bananas just as well- the MK's just usually don't know how to do it. Watch Sean fight Nanerz- his MK can dribble the bananas, bananalock the Diddy back and end it with a fsmash out of glide toss.

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That's not true at all. Diddy is designed to have the best banana control in the game, and that's why the character works. I'd like to see this metaknight face ADHD and see if he can hit him with bananas more than a couple times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH3MqPgNSyc&feature=channel_page

this metaknight obviously knows the matchup fairly well.