Official Stage Legality Discussion

The old topic got too huge and was always disorganized. Anyway, the purpose of this thread is to discuss your opinion on which stages should be starter stages, counterpick stages, and banned stages as well as to discuss other stage related tournament rules. Here are some definitions.

Starter stage: A starter stage is a stage that is eligible to be played in the first game of a tournament set.

Counterpick stage: A counterpick stage is a stage that is legal for tournament play but not eligible to be played in the first game of a tournament set.

Banned stage: A banned stage is a stage that may only be played in a tournament at the agreement of both players.

The SBR-B recommends the following set procedure:

Set format (In Order of Procedure):
1. Opponents choose their characters for the first match
2. Opponents start the stage striking procedure
3. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for counterpicks of the set
4. The first game is played, using the stage chosen during step 2
5. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Starter Stage List or the Counter Stage List
6. The winner of the previous match chooses their character
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character
8. Repeat steps 5-7 for all proceeding matches

In the stage striking procedure, players take turns removing stages from the starter stage list until only one stage remains. This may be done by each player removing one stage at a time or by a 1-2-1 / 1-2-2-1 order.

At some tournaments, the personal stage bans are handled after the first game is played.

Here is the SBR-B 2.0 recommended stage list. The results of the most recent publically known SBR-B voting results will be included alongside each stage, and they will be ordered based on what percentage of SBR-B voters favored them.

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] (37-0-0)
Battlefield (47-0-1)
Smashville (24-0-1)
Final Destination (26-2-1)


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise (16-9-0)
Halberd (18-16-0)
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2)
Castle Siege (5-9-0)


Counter

Delfino Plaza (6-20-0)
Brinstar (1-20-0)
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0)
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1)
Jungle Japes (0-14-1)
Pirate Ship (0-15-3)
PictoChat (0-25-9)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11)


Counter/Banned

Norfair (0-16-10)
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8)
Distant Planet (0-15-11)
Green Greens (0-6-9)
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19)
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23)


Banned

Hanenbow (0-5-16)
Mario Circuit (0-5-19)
Onett (0-3-14)
Corneria (0-3-15)
Big Blue (0-3-17)
75m (2-2-24)
Green Hill Zone (0-3-19)
New Pork City (2-1-20)
Rumble Falls (0-3-21)
Shadow Moses Island (1-1-20)
Summit (0-2-20)
Mario Bros. (2-0-22)
Flat Zone 2 (1-1-22)
Bridge of Eldin (0-2-25)
WarioWare Inc. (0-2-33)
Spear Pillar (1-0-31)
Skyworld (0-0-16)
Temple (0-0-16)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (0-0-19)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (0-0-21)

Some stages that are widely banned may be too distracting to the general discussion for us to have general discussion on them in this thread. Currently only Big Blue is like this; if you want to discuss Big Blue's legality, please re-direct yourself to this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214289

In the future, more threads like this one may be made for other stages. If they are, this post will be edited to contain links to those threads.

If you are looking for past arguments on stages, the old legality thread has a lot of good stuff in it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153706

Lastly, this thread is for polite and substantial discussion and debate about stage legality. You are allowed to advocate whatever you want, but personal attacks are simply not acceptable and will be infracted as flaming. Posts that simply make assertions without even attempting to back it up or contain absolutely no substance will be infracted as spam. A generally good rule of thumb there is to look if your post is only one line long (excluding quotes). If it is, there's a high chance it is spam. This is all contained within the global rules of SWF so I'm not really saying anything new, but do not be surprised when the rules are enforced.

battlefield <3

PICTOCHAT?
PIRATE SHIP?

Whyyyyy.

Way to freaking go linkshot and bobson. j/k

But I'm serious bout the stages being allowed. Why SBR, why?

I wasn't kidding about no substance posts. I'll let those two go and just sit there as an example of what sorts of posts need more substance.

Here's hoping I can present a proper case for Rumble Falls. Still working on it, but **** is it taking forever.

(I figured this was a proper post because it's a reminder from the previous topic.)

Why the hell is Pictochat freaking allowed? seriously, it has throw traps all over the stage. lucky throw into a popping up hazard=insta damage

Pirate ship. Camping at the top anyone? There's also bombs all over the place.




Oh yeah, there's the one hit kill fling too.

*also face palms at japes, and PS2 in counter*

Kamikaze* said:

Why the hell is Pictochat freaking allowed? seriously, it has throw traps all over the stage. lucky throw into a popping up hazard=insta damage

Click to expand...

It's really predictable. Every drawing spawns exactly every 13 seconds, and you can avoid every damaging hazard by being on the left bottom half of the stage.

Kamikaze* said:

Pirate ship. Camping at the top anyone? There's also bombs all over the place.

Oh yeah, there's the one hit kill fling too.

Click to expand...

Camping at the top...? What, with PK Thunder?

Regardless, the bombs are pretty obvious, while the catapult, which is five times as obvious, doesn't KO.

Sadly, I think Rumble Falls is one of the stages that may require its own topic.

Indeed. When you complete that write up on Rumble Falls, just post it as a new thread. Go for "Rumble Falls Legality Discussion" or something like that.

I'll do that. I really am sorry it's taking so bloody long. I've been doing a sign-holding job the past two days, and - in addition to having ungodly sunburns - it's taken up a lot of time. Thanks for the advice, though, Ampharos. I'll get to it ASAP.

Ad Linkshot, if you could add your research to it when it's posted, that would be very helpful!

☆ Corneria is banned?!? Thank God, now I can rest from people picking this stage. ☆

☆ Edited: Oh, it's just the votes, ignore this post. ☆

It's the FINAL votes.

Corneria is indeed banned.

im mixed about Corneria. i wonder why pictochat was picked over Distant planet.

MenoUnderwater said:

It's the FINAL votes.

Corneria is indeed banned.

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☆ Well then. XD ☆

☆ It's weird that more stages are banned now, though they have good reasons, I guess it's just me. ☆

It would be cool if people would post videos demonstrating why they argue that all the banned or counter/banned (or other) stages should be considered broken. Videos allow us to either find holes in "game-breaking tactics", or stand as a testament to newcomers as to why the stage should be banned.

Why not put Corneria in counter/banned?

smashkng said:

Why not put Corneria in counter/banned?

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It has a permanent wall.

I just ran some experimentation on the Bulborb, and how frequently it spawned. There's definitely a pattern - 25 seconds off-screen, 20 seconds on-screen, it seems. I'll test its behaviour while on-screen too.

I also plan to do tests on rain, Pellet Posies and Onions. Come back in a day or two, I should be finished by then =p

I'll definitely add my findings to it, Orion ^^

We face a serious problem going on, the extinction of many brawl stages because this community is full of ******** elitists. Thank you for ruining the fun of this game. Future brawl matches will be, smashville only, Snake only, since we are banning Metaknight too.

A lot of the "fun" comes from random happenings that basically have luck decide who wins. Since there is money on the line at tournaments, the professionals don't want these stages playing a role in the results.

Brawl is a sport at tournaments. It's a party game with friends.

CaliburChamp said:

We face a serious problem going on, the extinction of many brawl stages because this community is full of ******** elitists. Thank you for ruining the fun of this game. Future brawl matches will be, smashville only, Snake only, since we are banning Metaknight too.

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Nobody litsen to this man. He Thinks all of these stages:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200905

should be allowed.

Notice 75m is legal. LOL

lol. 75m... the worst thing about that stage is the size and the time of the matches. Other than that it is playable. Calibur knows best.

I want to discuss Big Blue.

The ground rapidly moving to the left is not a real issue. You can actually hop across the ground with good timing. Either way you should not be touching the ground. Like in all other stage, going beneath the actual stage is asking for death. The only difference is that now the death zone is off to the side.

The other issue is that the odd uneven ground is an issue. It gives an advantage to people who do well in the air, because it is hard to move around on the ground. I counter this with the fact that final destination gives an unfair advantage to people who prefer the ground. With final destination, there is no need to go in the air much farther than a short hop, so people with ground games do better. In Big blue there's not much use of being closer to the ground than a short hop.Also, people with ground games can short hop across the cars. They also generally have range enough (Ike, snake) to hit someone on a different car.

The point of a counterpick is to give an advantage to anyone who is losing. Big blue does this for character orientated towards fighting in the air. The advantage is slightly better than others but it still isn't game breaking, and characters are able to get around the problems one way or another. It forces you to try out a new style that you otherwise might not bother with. It may not be starter material, but it deserves to at least be in Counter/banned so people might consider it more often. I suggest putting it in their and see how it works out in big tourneys.

If you read the first pages, you'd know there is a specific thread for Big Blue.

Calibur, do you actually believe circle camping should be a valid way to win a tournament?

Yes, please discuss Big Blue in the specific Big Blue topic.

Anyway, about Distant Planet, I did some testing with frame advance on it to discover who can actually be chaingrabbed up the slope and who cannot. This is the result.


Grabbed:

Mario (no standing chaingrab either way on slope), Peach, Bowser (standing chaingrab only works downhill), Donkey Kong (no standing chaingrab either way), Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus (standing chaingrab only works downhill), R.O.B., King Dedede, Wolf (it should be noted that he's a massive pain to grab on this slope), Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucario, Snake, Sonic

Not Grabbed:

Luigi (no standing chaingrab either way, not tested explicity but pretty sure), Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Pit, Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, Marth, Ike, Ness, Lucas


That's 17/27 who are chaingrabbed up the slope and 10/27 who are not (don't take the numbers too seriously since they don't account for things like Ivysaur and Charizard being the same character, etc.). Not that the stage definitely helps Donkey Kong since he can't be infinited on the slope, and it probably helps Mario as well by removing the standing chaingrab.

Given how landing those chaingrabs weren't a big deal to begin with, I think this is more support for Distant Planet being a very good counterpick.

Yoshi's chaingrab:

Grabbed:

Donkey Kong, Wario (straight up)

Not grabbed:

Bowser, Diddy Kong, Link, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Falco, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Ike, Lucas, Snake, Sonic

So, poor Donkey Kong? Most characters hit the ground and can spotdodge.

Double edit:

With perfect break DI, Ness cannot be chaingrabbed by Marth up the slope (with the normal chaingrab). I am going to just assume Charizard can't do it either and that Lucas is protected like Ness; this one is obnoxious to test. Unfortunately, Marth can use dash grabs to end Ness...

I thought Perfect Break/Extra Inch DI was a myth.

Yea, thought Levitas all but debunked it.

CaliburChamp said:

Calibur knows best.

Click to expand...

...No the **** you don't.

75m is too big, and has too many platforms And we all know how campers rule big stages.

And as for the other stages on your list? lol, fail

Kamikaze* said:

...No the **** you don't.

Click to expand...

Heyheyheyheyheyheyhey.

Be nice.

There's still grab break DI for ground breaks; it just doesn't get Ness far enough away to avoid being regrabbed on flat ground (I've tested this myself in frame by frame). To do it, I just hold up and away. Either way, that's hardly the important point of that post...

Also, I just have to ask what is accomplished by hostility here. Obviously almost all of us disagree with CaliburChamp's positions on stages. He can still advocate his positions. I'm not a fan of censorship, either real or effective (by effective I mean treating people so badly when they advocate certain positions that they don't want to post any more).

I honestly think that a lot of the people that come in here and announce Temple, Summit, etc should be legal are people that play with no Stock Time Limit and never run away.

So basically.

Distant Planet should be a CP, as from what I'm hearing. I don't think ANYONE has posted an argument as to why it should be banned in the first place.

Pokemon Stadium 2 actually needs to remain as CP on a lot of actual tournaments (it's CP on the stage list, but a lot of tournaments don't have it). There's nothing wrong with it except for a general distaste of the stage really.

AvaricePanda said:

Pokemon Stadium 2 actually needs to remain as CP on a lot of actual tournaments (it's CP on the stage list, but a lot of tournaments don't have it). There's nothing wrong with it except for a general distaste of the stage really.

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I discovered yesterday that Metaknight has a 0-death on mid-to-slowfallers and a low%-death on fastfallers during the wind segment by chaining uairs. Doesn't seem like it would be enough reason to ban the stage, though.

Kamikaze* said:

...No the **** you don't.

75m is too big, and has too many platforms And we all know how campers rule big stages.

And as for the other stages on your list? lol, fail

Click to expand...

Ban camping, not the stages. Also, there needs to be more stages to counterpick against MK, and 75m is MK's worst stage. I dare you to play some friendlies on that stage, and you'll see its not that bad. =P

I have played friendlies on 75m. I took Zelda and just camped in the bottom right corner. I couldn't be approached.

CaliburChamp said:

Ban camping, not the stages. Also, there needs to be more stages to counterpick against MK, and 75m is MK's worst stage. I dare you to play some friendlies on that stage, and you'll see its not that bad. =P

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All you care about is being able to counterpick MK and you don't think about how it gays everyone else

75m?

And you DON'T want MK to stall??
Him running away constantly would be PERFECTLY LEGAL at that stage.

Hmm... not to intervene with the 75m discussion going on, but I was wondering if it was possible to find out why Skyworld was "unanimously" favored for being banned. Or, per se, what the argument was that shifted everyone to wanting to put it as banned only.

As for Calibur's unofficial list, if you read the conditions he lists it makes more sense, and actually seems useable... (Personally, I for one would like a greater selection of stages though maybe not to Caliburs extent. :D )

Waffle Can said:

Hmm... not to intervene with the 75m discussion going on, but I was wondering if it was possible to find out why Skyworld was "unanimously" favored for being banned. Or, per se, what the argument was that shifted everyone to wanting to put it as banned only.

As for Calibur's unofficial list, if you read the conditions he lists it makes more sense, and actually seems useable... (Personally, I for one would like a greater selection of stages though maybe not to Caliburs extent. :D )

Click to expand...

Skyworld has circle-camping, and the stage punishes you for recovering.

Gimping most characters is as easy as spamming attacks at the stage.