Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 21, 2009

Link's Brand New Match-up Thread

Here we go again, now that most if not all of the Link mains left for AiB it is our job as Link mains or secondaries, etc. to pick up the pace and remake the match-up thread. Who does link fair well against, who does he do bad against? That's what this thread is for. Here we will discuss his pros and cons.

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Exports:
#0 Ike
#1 Falco
#2 Pikachu
#3 Metaknight
#4 R.O.B.
#5: King Dedede
#6: Kirby
#7 Samus
#8 Mr. Game and Watch
#9 Snake
#10 Marth
#11 Lucario
#12 Ganondorf

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Current Discussion:

Bowser

3xSwords · Apr 21, 2009

Link gets *****. Yeah that pretty much sums it up. His projectile game just owns yours, lasers are too good, and his reflector reflects even when it doesn't have a hitbox so watch out for that (ie. when it's returning to him). And who can forget the CG!!!!! Pretty much consider this an instant death if you get caught in it without a bomb in hand and near the edge. Getting past the CG%'s can really help you in surviving and it brings up the question of whether or not you may want to employ sacrificial tactics such as damaging yourself purposely with your bombs.

Zair is your best friend especially because you can cancel that air dodge with it. So you can dodge lasers with an air dodge and quickly counter attack. Use nair to hit Falco out of his Side B and zair edge guard is great if he has to upB to the edge. On the contrary he can gimp you much more easily. His bair hits you out of pretty much everything and watch out and don't get your second jump get gimped by a laser. I wouldn't recommend throwing the rang to clear the area when trying to recover because if he reflects it, it essentially becomes a gale guard against you and that just ***** you.

70-30 or 75-25 Falco.

At early %'s you definitely always want a bomb to prevent a CG > early death if you aren't going to just rack up the damage by yourself. Since his camping game > Link's camping game, you are going to be offensive most of the time. You can get past laser spam with good perfect shielding and air dodges>zairs, but the range you have to stick to outspace Falco in close combat is very strict and frankly difficult to keep up. He is just plain faster then you if you go into a inside fight aka boxing (two frame jab along with amazing spot dodge) so you want him at sword's length but he has tactics such as jump and instant illusion or his reflector which keep you on your toes. It's just overall very difficult for Link to pursue a safe offensive. Then while you can get potential early kills against Falco, Falco gimp you much more easily. Link is definitely screwed in this matchup

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 21, 2009

I've found blowing myself up to get myself out of chain grab range is helpful, something Wolf mains taught me some of them did.

He can use projectiles, but he can't camp with them. Link is going to need to get close but need to stay out of grab range.

Falco isn't great at killing, but our recovery sucks.

I'll add more later, 35:65-30:70 Falco. I think this is Link's absolute worst match-up.

Pazx · Apr 22, 2009

We can't seriously have another matchup thread only to be abandoned...

On the topic of Falco: Link is screwed. Reflector means no more projectile spamming, and his lasers are a huge pain. You mustn't get chaingrabbed, so bombs always help too. What we need to do is keep Falco at mid-range. Our sword's disjointed hitbox shall be put to use.

I'm pretty sure that Falco's reflector is just about as long as Zair, which can be a problem. Link will need a bomb in hand (to throw or get outta some combo) at all times.

Overall? 70-30 Falco. Link is pretty screwed.

Hawks go Caw · Apr 22, 2009

Falco's reflector's biggest weakness is it's huge lag. It doesn't have a hit box while retracting and he takes time to grab it and put it back in place, so if you manage to bait and punish it he'll use it less and your projectiles are more effective, or he'll continue to use it in which you can just keep punishing. Another weakness of the reflector is that unlike the other spacies, Falco's reflector doesn't cover his entire body, so you can throw your projectiles over it. If you continue to do this, he'll probably short hop the reflector. When he takes it back and it's in his hands, it still reflects and that includes behind him. But really, the lag on it is pretty horrible, even on hit (unless it trips). It's has a -34 advantage on shield stun, and that's if it his on the last active frame of the hit box.

As far as lasers go, they don't affect you if you just stand still. And if Link keeps his shield in front of him when he ducks that would make it harder to shoot over the shield.

Falco's recovery is pretty easy to gimp. If he's at about stage level, arrows are pretty ****. Eventually, the Falco's probably going to have to recover high or risk getting an arrow to the face. If you can force him to recover high then keeping him off stage or getting a kill shouldn't be too difficult. Keep in mind that Falco has the option of canceling his phantasm as a mix up.

As far as the chain grab > spike goes, you should know better than I do if it's unsurvivable. You can also tech the spike by SDI and DI towards the stage right when he hits and then wall teching the ledge. It's pretty difficult to time, but you might find it worthwhile. Another alternative is to play near the ledge at very low percentages and hope that your opponent can't do a reverse boost pivot grab. If he can't, then he won't be able to get the full damage of the CG and it'll be more survivable. If he can, he'll have to RBPG twice and at least it leaves more room to mess up/trip. Playing close the ledge is also the same as playing on a platform that's not over the end of the stage (not like Smashville's).

I don't play Link so I can't really provide specific strategies or counters. But I do play a lot of Falco and I basically just outlined his basic weaknesses and what annoys me (yellow pikmin that go over my reflector and arrows).

3xSwords · Apr 22, 2009

Pazx said:
We can't seriously have another matchup thread only to be abandoned...

On the topic of Falco: Link is screwed. Reflector means no more projectile spamming, and his lasers are a huge pain. You mustn't get chaingrabbed, so bombs always help too. What we need to do is keep Falco at mid-range. Our sword's disjointed hitbox shall be put to use.

I'm pretty sure that Falco's reflector is just about as long as Zair, which can be a problem. Link will need a bomb in hand (to throw or get outta some combo) at all times.

Overall? 70-30 Falco. Link is pretty screwed.

No I'm pretty sure this one won't be abandoned like the last one.

Pazx · Apr 22, 2009

3xSwords said:
No I'm pretty sure this one won't be abandoned like the last one.

And the one before that, and the one before that...

Use bomb's to survive if you are CG to Spike (y'know, throwing them into the stage and being hit?)

Link is screwed. /matchup

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 22, 2009

I'm not going to abandon this one. Since most Links went to AiB over the dispute with the mods I'm going to stick around and help out around here.

Anonano · Apr 22, 2009

Hawks Go Caw, the CG>Spike is survivable. I had plenty of friendlies with a solid Falco main who can RBPG however he wanted so that he could get max damage before spiking me, and I still survived every time. It's all about saving your second jump for the meteor cancel.
That way Falco not only can't spike you, but also can't gimp your recovery back to the ledge.

Hawks go Caw · Apr 22, 2009

I don't use Link so I wouldn't know. The only time I've managed to kill with the spike is when for some reason the opponent loses their jump while I'm chain grabbing them, so I figured it was survivable. Everyone else seemed to make a huge deal out of it though. That being said, if you can live though it, why bother bringing yourself above CG damage? I'd understand if it meant saving that stock, but ultimately you're doing the same amount of damage.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 22, 2009

It's the damage racking, not the spike, that worries me.

A single grab can mean a butt load of % Link will be taking, and I'll be off the stage, with a character that can't recover well.

Rinku リンク · Apr 23, 2009

Keeping your space is important. You want to stay close but not too close or else you'll end up getting CG'ed. Z-air helps

Tektite · Apr 23, 2009

Twilightlink421 said:
Keeping your space is important. You want to stay close but not too close or else you'll end up getting CG'ed. Z-air helps

No. Falco's reflector counters Z-air.

Tektite · Apr 23, 2009

Oh and bomb youself to 50% so that you don't get chain grabed. If you do get CG then learn to tech the spike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g.

Anonano · Apr 23, 2009

Tektite said:
Oh and bomb youself to 50% so that you don't get chain grabed. If you do get CG then learn to tech the spike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g.

Anonano said:
Hawks Go Caw, the CG>Spike is survivable. I had plenty of friendlies with a solid Falco main who can RBPG however he wanted so that he could get max damage before spiking me, and I still survived every time. It's all about saving your second jump for the meteor cancel.
That way Falco not only can't spike you, but also can't gimp your recovery back to the ledge.

Red Ryu said:
It's the damage racking, not the spike, that worries me.

A single grab can mean a butt load of % Link will be taking, and I'll be off the stage, with a character that can't recover well.

Hawks go Caw said:
I don't use Link so I wouldn't know. The only time I've managed to kill with the spike is when for some reason the opponent loses their jump while I'm chain grabbing them, so I figured it was survivable. Everyone else seemed to make a huge deal out of it though. That being said, if you can live though it, why bother bringing yourself above CG damage? I'd understand if it meant saving that stock, but ultimately you're doing the same amount of damage.

Tektite, pay attention. :/

RZA_Immortal Technique · Apr 23, 2009

falco ***** in this matchup, lasers are way too good against him

Pazx · Apr 23, 2009

He's an AiBer, he doesn't want to pay attention. (referring to what Ano said to Tekkite)

Okies, the Link should try to bait a reflector, because it's quite easily punished. Arrow canceling is essential in this matchup, while you can't outcamp falco you have to keep the pressure on. Boomerang can disrupt cg.

Just thoughts.

Anonano · Apr 23, 2009

Pazx said:
He's an AiBer, he doesn't want to pay attention. (referring to what Ano said to Tekkite)

Congratulations, so am I.

Onomanic · Apr 23, 2009

Tektite said:
Oh and bomb youself to 50% so that you don't get chain grabed. If you do get CG then learn to tech the spike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g.

I'm pretty sure it's lower than 50%. It's around 25-30%.

Pazx · Apr 23, 2009

Anonano said:
Congratulations, so am I.

Congratulations, noone cares. Fun to lurk there though :D

@blu link, it's a bit more than 30%

Lawz. · Apr 23, 2009

bomb yourself to probably about 45%, either that or hold a bomb or learn to tech the spike

KirinBlaze · Apr 23, 2009

It's extremely easy to SDI/TDI the spike and land onstage after a few tries. I do it all the time. It makes a WOOOOOOOORLD of difference on stages like Battlefield and Final Destination, it's hard on Yoshi's Island though. Just hit the C-Stick and Joy Stick left or right, depending on where you are of course, the moment the Dair hits Link. If done right you'll be onstage again.

SuSa · Apr 23, 2009

KirinBlaze said:
It's extremely easy to SDI/TDI the spike and land onstage after a few tries. I do it all the time. It makes a WOOOOOOOORLD of difference on stages like Battlefield and Final Destination, it's hard on Yoshi's Island though. Just hit the C-Stick and Joy Stick left or right, depending on where you are of course, the moment the Dair hits Link. If done right you'll be onstage again.

If the Falco doesn't spike you and just empty Sh's you pretty much kill yourself.... its risky

I also can only do it like 2/5 tries :/ don't get much practice...

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 23, 2009

I hope more Falco's come to help discuss other than me and Hawks go Caw.

We can avoid Laser **** if we duck, but then we can't let him get to close either. Spacing will be key since Falco can combo laser's in a grab.

So, any stage ideas on whats good for us and bad for Falco.

Rinku リンク · Apr 24, 2009

Tektite said:
No. Falco's reflector counters Z-air.

Didn't know that lol. Thx for telling me.

Looticforgothispassword · Apr 24, 2009

Pazx said:
Congratulations, noone cares. Fun to lurk there though :D

@blu link, it's a bit more than 30%

congratulations, you made yourself look like an ***, keep up the good work.

PK-ow! · Apr 24, 2009

SuSa said:
If the Falco doesn't spike you and just empty Sh's you pretty much kill yourself.... its risky

Huh? Why? Not if you only do it on reaction.

Pazx · Apr 24, 2009

Looticforgothispassword said:
congratulations, you made yourself look like an ***, keep up the good work.

Don't worry, I will :D

ndayday · Apr 24, 2009

Hawks go Caw said:
As far as lasers go, they don't affect you if you just stand still. And if Link keeps his shield in front of him when he ducks that would make it harder to shoot over the shield.

I'd like to correct that, if you do a silent laser or standing laser, it hits him right in the head.

Other then that, I agree with most everything. You have to approach, and watch out for the CG. You don't want him near you or far away from you, so you'll have to try to keep him somewhere inbetween those. You can really easily edgegaurd, if they try to Phantasm you just use any move really, and it'll hit them out of it.

And for the record, his shine outranges Link's Zair. Zair has two hitboxees though, so you can probably get him with the last hitbox if you time it right. 70:30, Falco.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 25, 2009

Well, most of what needs to be said has been said.

We just need stages and we can move on.

ndayday · Apr 25, 2009

Battlefield allows Link to get around without THAT much of a hassle from Falco, thanks to the platforms. It isn't perfect, but it's okay. I'd definetely say stages that have platforms are good, after Battlefield I would probably suggest Yoshi's Island. You probably don't want to take Falco to FD...that's just asking for a loss, as if it isn't hard already.

Eh, I don't have much to offer on stages. Lylat Cruise can probably mess up his CG, but that's pushing it.

3xSwords · Apr 25, 2009

Rainbow Cruise seems like a good option here. Brinstar might also be a good stage because it can stop CG's with lava or if the ground is uneven and it helps your recovery too.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 26, 2009

I need to correct a post I made earlier, if Link stands still he can avoid lasers, but if Falco knows how to short hop and aim the lasers at link's face it won't work, same thing with ducking.

Go to Norfair or Battlefield platforms and distractions will help. Avoid FD and Jungle Japes.

I'm going to say this is a 35:65 Falco, for my input not the decided input for the whole board, now that I've looked at Falco boards more and the input in this thread. Most people seem to lean more on 30:70 Falco .

Link has options to get around this stuff, it's just not favorable half of the time.

I'll do a write up soon for Falco.

ndayday · Apr 28, 2009

Have you done the write up yet? If not, I wrote one. You might not want to use it, but that's okay because it was basically review for me. :laugh:

Link vs. Falco

This matchup is pretty hard and isn't easy for Link in the least. Falco's lasers can be pretty hard to get around, but if you just stand still then you will be saved by your shield, providing Falco doesn't shoot lasers at your head. Crouching saves you from SH'd lasers, but be wary because a silent or standing laser will pop Link right in the head. To avoid lasers, try to perfect shield them and SHAD/Zair your way through them until you reach a medium distance from Falco. You don't want to get near Falco for fear of his CG. In the unfortunate event that you do get CG'd, hope that you are near the edge (at a low percent) and have a bomb in your hand. It would be desirable to save your second jump and possibly bomb yourself in the range of 35%~45%. If you do get spiked, then either meteor cancel or try to tech the ledge.

Again, remember to space yourself well in this matchup. Keep yourself medium distance, and SHAD his lasers and then Zair him if you get the opportunity. Use Nair to edgegaurd his phantasm, and Zair edgegaurding works wonders against his Up-B. One of Falco's biggest weaknesses is his reflector, so punish that whenever it is suitable. Many projectiles can go over the reflector and hit Falco, but remember that if he reflects your arrows/Gale Boomerang, Zair, that isn't good news for you. Punish the lag if it doesn't trip you, and arrows gimp him when he around stage level. If you can force him to try to recover high, then hitting him off the stage again for a kill shouldn't be too hard.

To make this easier on yourself, take Falco to stages like Battlefield. The ledges allow for somewhat easy manueverability, and if you stay on the platforms that can help against CGs. Stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair help, especially Norfair since the many ledges help you recover. Don't take Falco to FD or Japes, that will most defintely not be fun for you.

I think I covered everything that was said. What character are we doing next?

Anonano · Apr 28, 2009

There are old matchup threads all over the Link boards (I think one was renamed "I don't Know BFF Navi?" for kicks, but still has all the information). You should take from that thread all the information of characters and reanalyze from there. Its easier to have somewhere to come from then just starting from scratch.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 29, 2009

NAKEDeDeDe said:
Have you done the write up yet? If not, I wrote one. You might not want to use it, but that's okay because it was basically review for me.

I think I covered everything that was said. What character are we doing next?

I was writing one, but we can use this one and quote from everyone for now. I'll put my summary in the export thread later.

Ok, Falco's done, we'll do Pikachu now.

Stealth Raptor · Apr 29, 2009

alright i have a lot to say on this as i played arkive a bunch back when he still played brawl. im subscribing so i dont forget to give my thoughts. ill call the matchup 60-40 pikachu for now

ndayday · Apr 29, 2009

Here are some conversation starters:

-Dealing with QAC
-Chaingrabs
-T-bolt
-Recovery for Link
-Edgegaurding
-Projectiles to be put to use
-Stages/Counterpicks

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 29, 2009

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Dealing with QAC

It's mostly a mindgame when he QACs, at least that's what I think of it.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Chaingrabs

He's a little tid bit about Pikachu that he shares with Falco, both have ways to set up grabs. Pikachu has a few more than Falco, and he has two chain grabs compared to Falco's one. Pikachu can Fthrow us to 30-40%. His Dthrow with buffering goes til 40%.

I'd say his Fthrow is deadlier, since it puts Link offstage rather than leaving us on stage.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-T-bolt

Our arrows and bombs will either arc over it or cancel each other out. Fun thing about Bombs, they cancel out his T-bolt and keep going. So bombs cancel out the T-bolt and blow him up.

Standing still works, but that just sounds like a bad idea at low percentages when Pikachu can CG us.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Recovery for Link

This is hard, Pikachu can make a wall of Thunder to make us eat % to get back on the stage. His Nair, when it sweetspots, will make sure we won't recover at high %.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Edgegaurding

I don't think Link can edge guard Pikachu without Boomerang shenanigans. He can force Pikachu to go places by shooting projectiles, but other than that I can't see Link Guarding Pikachu well, if at all.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Projectiles to be put to use

Bombs, bombs and more bombs. Seriously though, any projectile will work, arrows are good for distance, Boomerang will mess up his spacing, and Bombs will absorb his T-bolts.

NAKEDeDeDe said:
-Stages/Counterpicks

Norfair isn't a bad stage, but other than that I can't think of much else.

It's 40:60 Pikachu IMO.

gallax · Apr 29, 2009

let me tell you that the easiest way to counter a qac is to jab it. you will more than likely hit the pika out of it. this only applies when the pika qa's through you. also be weary if you are above pika on a platform. it doesnt matter if you are on the other side of the stage cuz we can qac>attack very fast.

the one thing i will say though it to not fight pika in the air. make the fight go spammy.

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