Falcon vs the rest - How to deal with certain moves -week 4: Week 5: Pit's arrows

Zeallyx · Apr 22, 2009

~(Idea lend from the DDD board.)~

- This thread is for the discussion how to deal with (get around/counter) certain moves falcon gets to deal with.
Please share your knowledge about ways to deal with the moves the discussion revolves aroud.

~Week 1: MK's tornado (neutral b)~
- A move wich can be very hard to deal with.
I would like to hear you guys' opinion about how to deal whit this move best when playing as captain falcon.

Conclusion(s) of week 1:

- Bair/Utilt can outrange the tornado, making it able to clank/hit MK out of his tornado.
- Falcon can outrun the tornado, setting you up for punishing MK's freefall (if any).
- One can shield the tornado, and after that, punish MK's freefall (if any).
- A flub knee can hit MK out of his nado (risky).
- MK's nado has a weak spot at the top (making, for example, a Dair possible.) (risky).
- when you get caught in the nado, (S)DI up etc.

~Week 2: Mr. GaW's Bair~
- A move wich can be also very hard to deal with.
I would like to hear you guys' opinion about how to deal whit this move best when playing as captain falcon.

Conclusion(s) of week 2:

- Run. It ***** your shield, and as it has very little landing lag, GaW can punish the roll you roll away with. Falcons speed can save him from this move.
- Shield. Although it eats away your shield fast, you are able to shield grab a less well spaced Bair a GaW can throw at you.
- Falcons Fsmash can trade hits with one hit of the multihitting Bair GaW has. (wich is a good deal for falcon.).
- One can airdodge through it, to get to safety. (and maybe even get a quick jab in, before GaW is able to move after his Bair - this needs testing+exact frame data to confirm though.).

- When lured out by jumping over GaW, you can Bair punish his Bair attempt.
Requires mindgames, so is not reliable, but the only way to punish GaW's Bair effectively is to be at the other side (The side without the **** hitbox) of GaW, and then punish him while he is Bairing.

~Week 3: Falco's lazorz (neutral b)~[/
- A move wich can be also very hard to deal with.
I would like to hear you guys' opinion about how to deal whit this move best when playing as captain falcon.

Conclusion of week 3:
- (running) powershields/shields.
- fullhops/shorthops.
- SHAD's. (Short Hop Air Dodges).
- Mixture of all of the 3 above mentioned.

~Week 4: R.O.B's Gyro (down b) ~
- A move wich can be also very hard to deal with.
I would like to hear you guys' opinion about how to deal whit this move best when playing as captain falcon.

Conclusion of week 4:
- Jab stops the gyro
- Be aware of the fact R.O.B's will not just point blank throw the gyro at you
- One can catch it for ones own use
- SHAD through the gyro
- (perfect, if possible) Shield the gyro

~Week 5: Pit's arrows (Neutral b) ~
- A move wich can be also very hard to deal with.
I would like to hear you guys' opinion about how to deal whit this move best when playing as captain falcon.

~At the end of each week, I will summarise the best ways mentioned by you guys into the OP.
So that at the end of this threads life, we will have a summary about how to deal with all the moves falcon has a hard time dealing with.

t3h n00b · Apr 22, 2009

Great thread idea, I just played (to the last stock

) Haloman800 on the AiB ladder if anyone's heard of him. He basically spams tornado half the match. Bair can outrange it, and knee works, so I'm assuming it outprioritizes it, but obviously you have to start early and just hit with the flubbed knee. Also, Falcon Kick can work, aerial is better, but it seems kind of situational, almost. If you start too close, you will get sucked in before the hitbox comes out. Those are the three moves I use against the tornado, but you have to ~~get lucky~~ space them really well. And Falcon can outrun the tornado, if it's really close, that's probably the best idea. One last thing, the tornado gains height and priority when the B button is mashed, so a higher tornado will be tougher to deal with.

Zeallyx · Apr 22, 2009

t3h n00b said:
Great thread idea, I just played (to the last stock ) Haloman800 on the AiB ladder if anyone's heard of him. He basically spams tornado half the match. Bair can outrange it, and knee works, so I'm assuming it outprioritizes it, but obviously you have to start early and just hit with the flubbed knee. Also, Falcon Kick can work, aerial is better, but it seems kind of situational, almost. If you start too close, you will get sucked in before the hitbox comes out. Those are the three moves I use against the tornado, but you have to ~~get lucky~~ space them really well. And Falcon can outrun the tornado, if it's really close, that's probably the best idea. One last thing, the tornado gains height and priority when the B button is mashed, so a higher tornado will be tougher to deal with.

Thank you very much.
At the end of each week, I will summarise the best ways mentioned by you guys into the OP.
So that at the end of this threads life, we will have a summary about how to deal with all the moves falcon has a hard time dealing with.

Your post is a big help

.

Lionman · Apr 22, 2009

Here is a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGyliDwhkcI

MK have a weak point in the tornado but is really hard access there

I bet aerial Falcon kick works with this

Winnar · Apr 22, 2009

Knee! :D This is a great thread! <3

Also when I deal with tornado I usually just try to avoid it. If they follow a pattern with the tornado that is punishable then I abuse it. If they like to stay low, falcon kick (but only once or twice, then go back to avoiding so I'M not the predictable one). Most MK's who spam tornado aren't very good at it, which is nice. Also after running from it for a bit if they still don't give up on trying to get it, there are other ways to punish tornado. If you have the timing for it/can predict when and where they're going to stop then going for the grab is good. Hell, even going for the dash attack is good at mid(!) to high percents (low and you'll get d-air *****). Maybe. MAAAAAAAYBE you can go for u-smash. I wouldn't count on it and if you do then expect to be very punished for missing.

Also if you get caught in it DI up, etc. There really aren't many things you can do to punish it as falcon once you're in the middle of it. Although maaaaaaybe you can DI up and then falcon kick back into it? I'll have to try this... but yeah usually I just DI up and accept that I'm going to take between 3%-10%. Oh, and if you can save your jump when you're in the tornado and use it once you DI up enough then that's good too.

Also I wouldn't go for b-airs or knees. Maybe a very well placed d-air but that's another once-per-game tactic (edit - just like the video above this post, you CAN do it but it's very tricky). Once you use it once you will never get it again. Even bad MK players will look to avoid it.

Hope that helps :D

t3h n00b · Apr 22, 2009

Lol great vid. The top of the tornado is the weakest point, because there simply isn't a hitbox at the part that you spiked. Falcon Kick can also outprioritize the tornado sometimes.

Zeallyx · Apr 22, 2009

Winnar said:
Knee! :D This is a great thread! <3

Also when I deal with tornado I usually just try to avoid it. If they follow a pattern with the tornado that is punishable then I abuse it. If they like to stay low, falcon kick (but only once or twice, then go back to avoiding so I'M not the predictable one). Most MK's who spam tornado aren't very good at it, which is nice. Also after running from it for a bit if they still don't give up on trying to get it, there are other ways to punish tornado. If you have the timing for it/can predict when and where they're going to stop then going for the grab is good. Hell, even going for the dash attack is good at mid(!) to high percents (low and you'll get d-air *****). Maybe. MAAAAAAAYBE you can go for u-smash. I wouldn't count on it and if you do then expect to be very punished for missing.

Also if you get caught in it DI up, etc. There really aren't many things you can do to punish it as falcon once you're in the middle of it. Although maaaaaaybe you can DI up and then falcon kick back into it? I'll have to try this... but yeah usually I just DI up and accept that I'm going to take between 3%-10%. Oh, and if you can save your jump when you're in the tornado and use it once you DI up enough then that's good too.

Also I wouldn't go for b-airs or knees. Maybe a very well placed d-air but that's another once-per-game tactic (edit - just like the video above this post, you CAN do it but it's very tricky). Once you use it once you will never get it again. Even bad MK players will look to avoid it.

Hope that helps :D

glad I can help.
And yes, your post does help

All help is wanted/needed to get the most accurate summary at the end of each week

.

talkingbeatles · Apr 22, 2009

I'll echo what everyone else has said about this thread being awesome. Because it is. It is an awesome thread idea.

Okay... I heard this somewhere, and I hardly have anyone to play against, much less any MKs, but does raptor boost spike if you hit the tornado from above? Because if so... that seems like it could be pretty **** useful.

F5Hazardousdoc · Apr 22, 2009

talkingbeatles said:
I'll echo what everyone else has said about this thread being awesome. Because it is. It is an awesome thread idea.

Okay... I heard this somewhere, and I hardly have anyone to play against, much less any MKs, but does raptor boost spike if you hit the tornado from above? Because if so... that seems like it could be pretty **** useful.

It can, but raptor boost doesn't hit instantly, it sweeps from top down, so if falcon gets so much as tapped during it by the edge of nado, you get swept in.

ishinator · Apr 22, 2009

OK, Tornado, not that much of a big deal if you know how to deal with it:

Example1:

You are above MK, the MK starts to push the b button as fast as he can to get up to you. Simply Airdodge and fastfall through it, that should be it. When you get to the floor before him try to punish with a sweet knee or a uair. If you can space AND time it really really well, you can try to dair him out of the nado, but to my experience it is hard and risky.

Example2:

MK approaches with the tornado. The safest thing to do here is: run for your life, roll, or if the nado just startet punch him out of it. If you choose to run, just run away from the nado (cause you are fast enough), and when you reach the edge and the nado still goes on, you can simply jump towards mk, airdodge immediatly and then run to the other side again. If you start at the edge, and MK comes towards you, you can either start with jump and airdodge, or you can roll behind him and then run away. Now for the third case: Attacking MK out of the Tornado. This is a kind of tricky thing because you have to space and time extremely well. But what i figured out that works quite good is bair, the kick and utilt. Try it, if you can't time it... run.

If he spams the nado, you can pretty much say GG and leave... if you don't wanna do that, always keep in mind that you can SDI and TDI out of it when you're hit. And that you have to learn the timing and spacing for hitting him out of the tornado.

Winnar · Apr 22, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
It can, but raptor boost doesn't hit instantly, it sweeps from top down, so if falcon gets so much as tapped during it by the edge of nado, you get swept in.

Yeah, the success rate of that working is...probably pretty low. You'd have to hit them while they're not on the way up (and in fact are moving down slightly, but not very much)

With a little testing though it might prove to be more reliable.

And once more because I can: This thread is great. We're discussing things which are genuinely up in the air as to the best way to deal with

That said I'd like to suggest Falco lasers for the next move to discuss. Or Snake grenades. Or Diddy bananas.

This thread is amazing.

Zeallyx · Apr 22, 2009

Winnar said:
Yeah, the success rate of that working is...probably pretty low. You'd have to hit them while they're not on the way up (and in fact are moving down slightly, but not very much)

With a little testing though it might prove to be more reliable.

And once more because I can: This thread is great. We're discussing things which are genuinely up in the air as to the best way to deal with

That said I'd like to suggest Falco lasers for the next move to discuss. Or Snake grenades. Or Diddy bananas.

This thread is amazing.

I was thinking of putting Mr. Game and watch's Fsmash up for discussion next week.
As that move is a real pain imo >.< I hate to deal with that move so much

But I'll think about it, and take your suggestions into account

anyhow, please discuss MK's tornado (neutral b) more, everyone

Winnar · Apr 22, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I was thinking of putting Mr. Game and watch's Fsmash up for discussion next week.
As that move is a real pain imo >.< I hate to deal with that move so much

But I'll think about it, and take your suggestions into account

anyhow, please discuss MK's tornado (neutral b) more, everyone

G&W f-smash and d-smash can be a pain too, especially when used to ledgeguard. I was just making suggestions, but there are really no wrong moves for this thread :D Oh, also everything Olimar.

Also I don't know if there's anything else to say about MK's tornado. Mostly dodge it, know how to take as little damage from it as possible, and know what moves beat it (from the top, usually, though falcon kick works anywhere)

Oh, one thing I'll say about Falcon Kick, only use it to cancel Mach Tornado when they're at mid-higher %'s. At lower percents the falcon kick doesn't have enough knockback, so MK negates (and piles on more) the damage you dealt to him with a d-air or something.

The most important thing you can do is to get experience dealing with it, IMO.

t3h n00b · Apr 22, 2009

ishinator said:
OK, Tornado, not that much of a big deal if you know how to deal with it:

Example1:

You are above MK, the MK starts to push the b button as fast as he can to get up to you. Simply Airdodge and fastfall through it, that should be it. When you get to the floor before him try to punish with a sweet knee or a uair. If you can space AND time it really really well, you can try to dair him out of the nado, but to my experience it is hard and risky.

You can't fastfall an air dodge. And you can't fastfall out of a tornado. If you are above MK and he starts a tornado, you can Falcon Kick it, jump away, or try a bair or fair. Dair, like people, said can work, but it is hard to hit the only spot on MK that isn't a hitbox. But airdodging will not work, otherwise the tornado wouldn't be such an effective and annoying move.

Winnar said:
That said I'd like to suggest Falco lasers for the next move to discuss. Or Snake grenades. Or Diddy bananas.

This thread is amazing.

Everyone has their own opinion and it's ultimately TKONTK's choice, but, imo, the projectiles you mentioned aren't really something that you need to think up moves to beat, they're just static obstacles. Lasers force an approach and have a lot of hitstun for gimping and combos, grenades are used to rack up damage and maintain stage control, and bananas are basically both of them combined. Tornado can be used after uairs to KO, as a recovery move, to rack up damage, or to eat shields.

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I was thinking of putting Mr. Game and watch's Fsmash up for discussion next week.
As that move is a real pain imo >.< I hate to deal with that move so much

But I'll think about it, and take your suggestions into account

anyhow, please discuss MK's tornado (neutral b) more, everyone

Maybe for next week all three smashes? They have different knockback angles, but are similar, with broken iasa frames and a lot of power. Just putting it out there.

Edit: It was mentioned somewhere, rolling isn't a good idea really. I tried that at first, and you can avoid a lot of the tornado, but mashing B also increases its duration, so the good MK I played would just mash the button and wait out my rolls. I've seen people angle their shields really well to block a whole tornado, but I haven't been able to do that. Running away seems like the best option to avoid it to me, and ledgecanceled Falcon Kick would probably work

10oldATs

Noodlehead · Apr 22, 2009

i had this idea along time ago but no one listened, anyways a proper name would be Character Specifics...

FAILchion- · Apr 22, 2009

Awesome idea, just what we needed. Though, are you sure you'd like to do this weekly? I think it'd take way too long. But that's just me, do whatever you like.

Zeallyx · Apr 22, 2009

I'd say we have a vote going on for the next move to be discussed next to the actual discussion.
The most mentioned move will be the move of the next week

. (Everyone can only vote once a week, offcourse

).

And if the tornado discussion is coming to an end, I'll wait for the votes, and get the new move up tommorrow

.

FAILchion- said:
Awesome idea, just what we needed. Though, are you sure you'd like to do this weekly? I think it'd take way too long. But that's just me, do whatever you like.

I couldnt agree more

.
When a discussion comes to an end, it doesnt matter how much time has passed, a new move will be put up

.

FAILchion- · Apr 22, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I'd say we have a vote going on for the next move to be discussed next to the actual discussion.
The most mentioned move will be the move of the next week. (Everyone can only vote once a week, offcourse).

And if the tornado discussion is coming to an end, I'll wait for the votes, and get the new move up tommorrow.

Sounds great. I'm looking forward to what this thread will have to offer.

Player-3 · Apr 22, 2009

Its a okay thread as long as you dont be stupid about it and start analyzing moves like GWs dsmash, MKs dsmash, or fast moves that you CANT counter

Tornado, drill, dededes upb, slow moves that you have time to react to is fine

personally i just run from the tornado until i can get a AFK in

Winnar · Apr 22, 2009

The thread is called "How to deal with certain moves"

If there are moves we decide have no counter then that's perfectly fine, though they are still worth discussing. For example, if/when we discuss MK's dsmash we'll be talking about when to expect it and how to avoid it when we expect it.

IMO this is the perfect thread for TKONTK's posting style. A catalogue of how to deal with certain moves could be extremely (EXTREMELY) useful for new players, and especially new Falcon players.

ToKnee, might I suggest a disclaimer somewhere in the OP? Something along the lines of: These are general overviews of moves Falcon players tend to have trouble with. These strategies for how to deal with them are to be taken with a grain of salt as each move and the proper reaction against it is ALWAYS going to be situational. There is no "end-all" solution for these moves, for that is why they are being discussed and why you are here reading this. That said, here are some general strategies for how to deal with...

Wogrim · Apr 22, 2009

Not that we couldn't use a new one, but I think we already did have a thread just like this one. Probably an Ayaz thread. I'm not gonna go look for it though.

talkingbeatles · Apr 23, 2009

Wogrim said:
Not that we couldn't use a new one, but I think we already did have a thread just like this one. Probably an Ayaz thread. I'm not gonna go look for it though.

Well this one is up and running, so let us use it.

I think running is definitely the safest option. Falcon Kick is nice... somebody should get the specifics on when RB spikes though. I mean... if anyone thinks it it worth looking into. It might not be. If the timing and spacing is going to be to risky and difficult to get down, then just forget it I suppose.

My vote for next move is Squirtles side b. Maybe I'm alone though on this.

F5Hazardousdoc · Apr 23, 2009

Falcon kick, sweetspot bair, RUN LIKE HELL.

My choices against nado. I've noticed that aerial falcon kick seems to do better than grounded kick too.

If you jump up high, and make the MK start mashing to rise up and meet you, then you'll be rewarded for dodging it by MK falling helpless to the ground and doing a silly bounce, just enough time for a speedy punish.

t3h n00b · Apr 23, 2009

talkingbeatles said:
Well this one is up and running, so let us use it.

I think running is definitely the safest option. Falcon Kick is nice... somebody should get the specifics on when RB spikes though. I mean... if anyone thinks it it worth looking into. It might not be. If the timing and spacing is going to be to risky and difficult to get down, then just forget it I suppose.

My vote for next move is Squirtles side b. Maybe I'm alone though on this.

I don't think it's possible at all to spike through the tornado with raptor boost unless you have invincibility frames, because Falcon will pass through the hitbox of the tornado before he gets to the one spot that is vulnerable. And what do you find so difficult about withdraw? o_o it just has super armor and moves in one direction, some moves can turn it around, or you can footstool and Squirtle can't do anything for a long time.

F5Hazardousdoc said:
My choices against nado. I've noticed that aerial falcon kick seems to do better than grounded kick too.

It has more priority for some reason /retardedfalcondittos

Wogrim · Apr 23, 2009

If you can, run away from tornado. He'll have to land somewhere, at which point it's easy Hyphen Smash or Knee if he lands on a platform.

mlorenzo · Apr 23, 2009

you can also jab the tornado to cancel it. But it has to be at the start when the priority is low. IS a good option when they use it right next to Falcon. Jab the nado to cancel it

talkingbeatles · Apr 23, 2009

****! I just had a thought. It probably doesn't work but...

does raptor dive get MK out of his tornado? If so... that's awesome.

t3h n00b · Apr 23, 2009

I'm almost positive it doesn't, I'm about to play though so I guess I'll see, but the thing is, Falcon can almost always be hit out of Falcon Dive. It has grab priority, but try to Falcon Dive a jabbing Falcon. MK is one giant hitbox during tornado, so that should hit Falcon out of Falcon Dive before it latches on.

Ville · Apr 23, 2009

You people seem to forget that not every MK player is a braindead moron who presses B spontaneously.
A good MK knows about his moves and when it's about time to use them.
Nobody will approach you with tornado if you are above him, cuz it has this weak spot and Uair/UpB is 10x more effective.
Also I have to admit that even tho the kick owns the tornado, you won't have enough time to actually use it, because MK's usually dont use tornado to fly over the whole stage.

All in all theres not much you can do besides running away or SDIing out of it, also aim your shield up.

talkingbeatles · Apr 23, 2009

Ville said:
You people seem to forget that not every MK player is a braindead moron who presses B spontaneously.

Yeah... but you have to admit. A lot are.

F5Hazardousdoc · Apr 23, 2009

talkingbeatles said:
Yeah... but you have to admit. A lot are.

But these guys also get knocked out early by non-falcons in tournies.

The times I see MK's use tornado to its most effective is:

A) When they're above you, they'll drop down on your shield and chase after you if you try to roll/run. Probably the most effective, since if they do it after trying to drop down on you and dair, you're shield'll be up and have taken some damage.

B) When they see you start running towards them. Good MK's like to counter low priority moves with tornado, if they can predict the startup.

C) C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER. Besically, if you telegraph your follow-ups, they'll nado you for easy damage as you jump in with your KNEE *which you shouldn't be using*
Easily avoidable, and you should learn NOT TO JUMP IN AT AN MK BLINDLY. ESPECIALLY FACING TOWARDS HIM WITH YOUR KNEE STUCK OUT.

t3h n00b · Apr 24, 2009

F5Hazardousdoc said:
C) C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER. Besically, if you telegraph your follow-ups, they'll nado you for easy damage as you jump in with your KNEE *which you shouldn't be using*
Easily avoidable, and you should learn NOT TO JUMP IN AT AN MK BLINDLY. ESPECIALLY FACING TOWARDS HIM WITH YOUR KNEE STUCK OUT.

While jumping in with a knee is a bad idea, if the hitbox is still out, it should outprioritize the tornado's startup. But jumping in with a knee asks to get shuttle looped. And I faced this even more pro tornadoer earlier today, he would get like 20% each time.

10wifis

Darxmarth23 · Apr 24, 2009

Jump and avoid. Get them into the air, and then punish the free fall.

Zeallyx · Apr 25, 2009

The discussion about MK´s tornado seems to have come to an end.

I will edit the OP with ways to deal with MK's tornado provided by you guys later today.

The next move up for discussion is (as I havent seen anyone vote, so I'll pick one myself):
Mr. GaW's Bair.

Please share your knowledge about how to deal with Mr. GaW's Bair

.

Red-Blue · Apr 25, 2009

Run away, you oversized pidgeons! Fear the turtle!

ishinator · Apr 25, 2009

GaWs Bair is a real pain imo.

- outrun
- shield (recommended to not use often, it will pwn your shield)

ok thats it. It outranges and outpriorizes our entire moveset<3.

t3h n00b · Apr 25, 2009

ishinator really covered it... bair hits a million times, and avoiding it outright is best, but if you're going to shield it, you pretty much need a full shield. The one thing that helps is that GaW has to jump at you facing the other way. Kind of obvious. While he has a full complement of broken aerials at his disposal, bair is the most likely one in that scenario. When I feel like I'm getting outranged, I use utilt, nair, or jump over and bair. But to directly counter GaW's bair, I don't know. The only move that I can think of to do that with is Dolphin Slash OoS.

Darxmarth23 · Apr 25, 2009

Versatile move.

Just wait till its over. Punish immediately.

Winnar · Apr 25, 2009

Basically just avoid it. B-air will always be telegraphed, if you look for it. If they are jumping backwards towards you, there will be a b-air. Simple as that.

If you're caught in your shield and G&W is using b-air make sure not to unshield until he hits the ground because that last hit occurs when he touches the ground. Afterwards you can unshield and run away or roll away, but do NOT try to punish it. It's not worth it. The only way you can punish it is if you expect a b-air and put yourself in a good position to punish.

My favorite way to punish is to jump over him when I think there's going to be a b-air, and depending on what he throws I'll react accordingly, though usually I either b-air him and run away or simply keep running away. Assuming G&W throws the b-air they're pretty much screwed for a few %. You can get an easy b-air by fast falling, or you can fast fall -> grab -> anything.

Other than that just avoid it until they get tired of using it.

G&W is pretty good, but almost all of them (at least the ones I've played) lack any significant mindgaming ability. Not that they aren't smart players, but it's just how G&W plays that there aren't too many options for innovation. That's really what you have to use to your advantage.

Jim Morrison · Apr 25, 2009

Roll away and repeat process untill you reach the edge. Next step is to cry at such a cheap character.

Falcon vs the rest - How to deal with certain moves -week 4: Week 5: Pit's arrows

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