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ROB OFFICIAL MATCHUP DISCUSSION: Snake

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut
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So, its been a LOOONG time since we talked about Snake, and his metagame has advanced quite a bit since then, whereas ours has not. Therefore, we need to re-assess this matchup.

GO!

(PS: In order to promote more activity, and to get caught up on our matchups... we will be discussing TWO characters per week for the next little bit.)
 

Kips

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Snake is strange. Sometimes he is surprisingly easy to kill with gimps, and sometimes he hangs on endlessly and you pile on damage, wondering when a fresh B-Air or N-Air will kill him. I find that a few basics are easy to remember- fire your laser often, especially when you hear the telltale "clink" of him pulling a grenade. Also, keeping Snake in the air has worked well for me- he's not half as effective up there as he is on the ground. It's mostly about keeping him in the air and off the stage, and abusing that fantastic Up+B that ROB has to keep the fight aerial.
 

TEECO

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I find camping snake hard to do, because the grenades being blown up in my face.
Should I approach him, or should I let him approach me?
 

Ruse

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lol just lzr da grnadz

100-0 ROB's fvr

But, seriously, Snake is more annoying that MK, imo.

How to main Snake:
1. Pick Cheetah Print costume
2. Press buttons
3. Magical **** Happens
4. Your opponent is suddenly 3 stocked

The only thing that ROB has on Snake is that he can gimp him, but it's not like that's the easiest thing in the world to do since he recovers so high. Grenades are easily spammable, and, unlike I've been told my countless people, you can't just lazer him when he pulls them. Trying to lazer him when he pulls them will often end up with an explosion in your face. ROB can't momentum cancel to save his life, so you'll often find yourself dying to fresh utilts or ftilts or... anything, pretty much.
 

JCaesar

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Laser him when he presses shield to drop the nade, and aim at his feet. Either the nade blows up or he lets his shield down to pick it up and takes a laser. If he manages to throw it before he gets lasered, it won't be primed enough to blow up before you can shield or throw it back.

It's tricky but ROB can outcamp Snake.
 

Darth Waffles

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When you're having a campfest vs Snake, you'll either be winning every time or losing every time. If you miss and the Snake is smart, you'll find that by the time you can fire another laser a grenade will already be flying toward you. Don't be afraid to catch one if it's uncooked or even start to approach just to make him stop throwing well-timed grenades. Then you can jump back and start over but on your terms since you'll now have a laser, possibly a gyro depending on the situation
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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lol just lzr da grnadz

100-0 ROB's fvr

But, seriously, Snake is more annoying that MK, imo.

How to main Snake:
1. Pick Cheetah Print costume
2. Press buttons
3. Magical **** Happens
4. Your opponent is suddenly 3 stocked

The only thing that ROB has on Snake is that he can gimp him, but it's not like that's the easiest thing in the world to do since he recovers so high. Grenades are easily spammable, and, unlike I've been told my countless people, you can't just lazer him when he pulls them. Trying to lazer him when he pulls them will often end up with an explosion in your face. ROB can't momentum cancel to save his life, so you'll often find yourself dying to fresh utilts or ftilts or... anything, pretty much.
this says more about your rob's ability than snake's...

rob outcamps snake, no questions askes. laser blows up grenades in his hands, gyro blows up nades and can be glide tossed too... snake should have to approach, and when he does, rob can use his ftilt, which is *almost* as broken as snake's. gimp with laser and gyro and chase when he's stupid enough to recover close to the stage. 60:40 rob imo, but definately winnable for snake too.

robs ability to survive overall is rated the highest btw. if you consider his horizontal and vertical di together, and his momentum cancelling bair, he should survive longer than snake or d3. look this up, cause its official.
 

JCaesar

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robs ability to survive overall is rated the highest btw. if you consider his horizontal and vertical di together, and his momentum cancelling bair, he should survive longer than snake or d3. look this up, cause its official.
No dude, ROB has a much better recovery than Snake or DDD, but he's not nearly as heavy and his momentum cancel is crap. btw, fair momentum cancels better than bair.
 

Landry

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No dude, ROB has a much better recovery than Snake or DDD, but he's not nearly as heavy and his momentum cancel is crap. btw, fair momentum cancels better than bair.
Isn't it u-air and fair cancel better than nair and dair? Not what you'd think if didn't know it.
 

Syde7

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this says more about your rob's ability than snake's...

rob outcamps snake, no questions askes. laser blows up grenades in his hands, gyro blows up nades and can be glide tossed too... snake should have to approach, and when he does, rob can use his ftilt, which is *almost* as broken as snake's. gimp with laser and gyro and chase when he's stupid enough to recover close to the stage. 60:40 rob imo, but definately winnable for snake too.

robs ability to survive overall is rated the highest btw. if you consider his horizontal and vertical di together, and his momentum cancelling bair, he should survive longer than snake or d3. look this up, cause its official.

*Almost* as broken as Snake's F-tilt? Since when did ROB have an F-tilt that's stronger and some character's F-smashes? (ZSS not included), and a hitbox that takes up a city block? lol. =P

Also... B-air doesn't cancel momentum after being hit, contrary to popular belief. ROBs Momentum Cancel is best achieved by throwing an item (gyro), or F-airing, and THEN B-airing to save your jumps/fuel when its used AS a recovery move. But, no momentum cancelling properties. Its official.

While ROB has an overall supposed higher survivability rate than Snake... ROB won't be able to consistently KO Snake (aside from gimps) before 140%, and that's with a brand-spanking new N- or B- air, and even a U-smash (good luck hitting with that), whereas a fresh U-tilt from Snake will get us KO'd as low as 110, sooner depending on the ceiling.

ROB can rack up lots of damage early on Snake due to his weight (throws to U-smash, or U-tilt, or U-air works well), but after the 110% mark, KOing becomes a pain. Essentially, ROB (who is notorious for lacking KO potential) will not be killing Snake before 140% unless it is through exceptional edgeguarding or an early gimp.

IMO, it is in ROBs advantage, but only because we can outcamp him. On stages with smaller "central combat areas" (battlefield, and to some extent Smashville) Snake's stage control is too good. Staggering his grenades, c4 on a platform, the range of his mortar-slide, increased grab range and limited space for getting out of the D-throw tech-chase, and his broken F-tilt range doesn't leave ROB much breathing room. In those instances, I'd call it 45/55 Snake's favor- 50/50 at best.

On stages with higher ceilings or longer stages (Lylat, FD), ROBs advantage is somewhere around the 60/40 range.
 

JCaesar

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*Almost* as broken as Snake's F-tilt? Since when did ROB have an F-tilt that's stronger and some character's F-smashes? (ZSS not included), and a hitbox that takes up a city block? lol. =P
I think he means in terms of range/priority, which is true. Try this: start a team/ffa with ROB and Snake right next to each other on Smashville or FD, and have them both ftilt each other at the start of the match. ROB wins.
 

TEECO

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Alright, so Ive learned something from some good players.
ROB outcamps snake but it must be done properly. Aim for the nades, got it.

ROBs Ftilt is basically a move to use to get some space, or to keep your space. I would trade ROBs Ftilt for snake's any day though lol.

When a snake plants his claymore, is it best to rid of it right away via laser or gyro, or to TRY and use it to your advantage?
 

Landry

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ROB = Snake Eater

Truly one of Snake's bad matchups. All ROB's gotta do is play smart and use projectiles. Keep your space and you'll be fine. 60-40 ROB.
 

Ruse

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Didn't people stop arguing about momentum cancel like 7 months ago?

All of your aerials will slow you down the same amount. Using the fastest aerial is the smartest, thus, Fair with ROB, which isn't all that fast compared to say, oh, MK's Uair.

ROB's DI sucks. Snake is so heavy that he'll outlive you without DI. Have fun with those Utilts.

Also, whatever happened to CPing Japes against Snake?
 

Overswarm

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copy pasta from other thread, I's lazy

Gimps

If you grab release Ally by the edge, he jumps forward and airdodge or nairs. Either way, you can beat that by hitting him out of it or shielding and grabbing again. If you grab him before he hits the ground, he loses his jump and is forced to up+b.

If you try the standard gimp of f-throwing him off the stage, you should always run immediately off the stage and jump straight up, right before you fall off the stage. This should allow you to fair him if he just falls towards the edge, and if he uses his second jump immediately you can jump and fair chain him pretty far off the edge.

It's not too hard to get Ally off the stage and start a chain on him, but I've only been able to kill him once by doing this. I normally have a 100% success rate, so this is frustrating. I've found doing a reverse up+b to bair when he's near the edge almost works, but it also lets him DI up and towards you, giving him more height.

Your hope the entire time is to either footstool him or dair him. Your goal is to get him below you, because his options are then limited. Be careful not to footstool his up+b (he gets it back if you do).

If you spike him, he will always HAVE to up+b immediately afterwards. Always. If you can call his direction, you can spike him out of that, killing him.

If you footstool him or force him to up+b away from the stage, he'll C4.

That's your goal. Make him use his C4.

Once you know he has to use his C4, get BELOW him. He will drop his C4, and he won't detonate until he's on top of you. You have three options now:

1. Let him hit you with the C4, then nair.

This will kill him at higher %.

2. Do a rising up+b + dair through his C4, spiking him.

This will kill him at higher %.

Both are hard to land.

3. Fair him lots off the side and hope he dies



On the stage

Glide toss to grab is a combo unless he powershields or you mess up your spacing. I'm not very good at the spacing, but if you practice it you can glide toss a gyro, grab him, then throw him off the stage. This sets off some nice edgeguarding opportunities!

Glide tossing down or up is a good way to move quickly while keeping your gyro. This can be used to u-smash a lot.

Stay away from Snake as often as you can. His d-throw tech chase is ridiculous, and boarding the platforms doesn't work too well here. If he's on top of you, a mix-up of jabs, d-smash, spot dodge, roll, or even side-b for a shield poke should be used.

Your laser can blow up his grenades when he's holding them. Make sure he can't tell if you're going to laser by randomly ducking; it almost always baits the grenade throw, and you can then just shield the nade or spot dodge it.

Keep your gyro on the ground. This prevents him from walking around with immunity, and if he snake-dashes he picks up the gyro. This is good for you, because he no longer has any ground attacks worht mentioning! Once he has the gyro do not shield. This is your time to go on full out offense, because he can't do very much at all against you. If he hits you with the gyro, no big deal.

Your u-tilt is probably underused, but it is your best friend on a falling Snake. I just recently started using this, but it goes through ALL of his aerials and sets you up for more u-tilts, u-airs, and if he air dodges, a nair or bair. It can be VERY frustrating for a Snake player if you space the u-tilt to hit him with the very tip, because if you do he can't air dodge through two of them and it constantly resets itself.

Killing Snake

When Snake hits 120%, keep your gyro and laser charged whenever possible. You've played Ally enough to know he's comfortable up+bing straight up, C4ing, then up+bing again to recover high. When he does this, he's predicatable. Your laser and gyro can both kill him at this % offstage, so use those to get good KOs.

Your u-throw won't kill him, but it sets him up for dangerous aerial battles. You HAVE to be aggressive with your nairs. You aren't nairing on stage, your nairing HIGH up. Snake is at kill % starting around 70% for ROB. All you have to do is make him up+b or u-throw him high enough, then chase him with your up+b and nair him. It is dangerous, but you have the advantage.

Glide toss to up+b was originally dismissed as useless.... but against Snake, it can be a great way to catch up to him once you throw him off the stage. Practice it a bit! You can glide toss your gyro then up+b and it launches you an incredible distance forward. You still have your second jump, so fair immediately after the up+b and use your second jump to catch up with Snake. It makes edgeguarding incredibly fast if you have a gyro handy.

Gyro tricks

Other than the things mentioned above, here are a few super awesome tricks:

1. Hold down A while holding a gyro

This allows you to do your f-smash while holding a gyro. Due to f-smash's low cooldown, you can f-smash while holding a gyro, glide toss, and then f-smash or d-smash with a shield poke!

2. Z dropping gyro

Glide tossing isn't the only thing you can do. Z-drop your gyro onto Snake's shield and then fair. You'll grab the gyro again, and can throw it or z-drop and follow it up with a jab or d-smash shield poke. It's tricky, but fun.

Also, z-dropping your gyro cancels out Snake's u-tilt! This makes approaches from above a lot safer. I've been trying to find ways to z-drop and shield poke with a nair, but the spacing seems impossible. You have to be close to z-drop and far away to nair shield poke, and it gives Snake too much time to react. :[
 

Wolydarg

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Anyone know what % nair kills snake at from the middle of FD assuming proper DI by snake?

Anywho, useful data:
From: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208172
Assuming C4/Mine not stale, no DI, FD, on the ground:
C4 kills ROB at 97%
Uncharged mine kills Rob at 123%
Fully charged mine kills ROB at 82%

From: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208039
Mine lasts 25 seconds
C4 lasts 27 seconds

From: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172417
Well, it's a lot of raw data here, but the general gist is that ~120% if they don't tech the stage they're likely going to die from C4 jump. This is dependent on DI and stalemoves, but it's a safe assumption that if they're 150% they're going to try to tech the stage if they're C4 jumping, which makes intercepting that much easier.

From: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163727
Assuming no DI, stale moves, from FD.
Uptilt = 106%
Downtilt = 138%

From: Ability to count
Grenades are on a 5 mississippi timer, this is heavily dependent on how fast you count personally, definitely get this down so that you can judge whether you should catch a nade or shield it.

From: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225125
Frame data

The thing I hate most about this MU is the fact that screwing up in any way gets you owned hard (21% ftilt? mannnn)
 

Syde7

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Few quick question sbefore we head into the wrap-up phase...

The F-tilt, and jab->F-tilt. How to properly deal with it? Which hits can you shieldgrab, which hits push you too far away to Shieldgrab, and how to punish (if at all possible) the brief moment between the two where you can't shieldgrab?

Also, lets start pinning down a ratio, as well as neutrals/counterpicks.

While it used to be listed at 60/40, I think it leans towards 55/45 imo (our favor). Neutral = FD. Strike = BF
CP= Japes, Frigate possibly if you can stay away from him (like vid of Overswarm DW posted)., anything else?
 

ipitydatfu

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quick question tho, remember those japanese snake dittos video (posted in BS's ROB thread)? how in the world do they DI so that they end up Behind it? or was that just a combination on Spacing and DI?

i'd say, 55-45 as well, but is dependent on stage choice. and Ban BF for sure, [yoshi's (brawl)? maybe cuz i just suck on that stage.]
 

ipitydatfu

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if snake uses both hits of f-tilt, for sure you cant shield grab, you're sent too far away (assuming youre within that sweetspot range where his fist meets ROB's face lol) . but if thats the case, wouldnt the jab -> f-tilt push you far away as well? maybe you can dashgrab OoS.

i might still be wrong, but i think if you're real close, you can shield grab him, (yay faux super armor frames?)
 

Crizthakidd

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is snake jab to ftilit a true combo if the first jab hits?

watch holy vs ally and ull see that snake has a lot of things to do vs rob =/
 

Jamnt0ast

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is snake jab to ftilit a true combo if the first jab hits?

watch holy vs ally and ull see that snake has a lot of things to do vs rob =/
its a true combo if your opponent is in the air. otherwise it can be powershielded.

I consider this matchup to be VERY even. Both characters have options and like stage control, so it's generally a battle of who can take center stage.

ROB can ftilt if he shields any of snakes tilts.
ROB can uair snake to hell, which is even helpful if the snake nades.
Goal of ROB vs Snake: Get snake off the ledge and follow him when he b-ups high.

Snake can powershield -> ftilt EVERY approach rob has.
Snake can counter rob's camping with grenade cooking.
Snakes tilts kill ROB at around 120% (10-30% less than rob is comfortable dying at).
Goal of Snake vs ROB: Control the stage wtih mines, C4, and Nades. FORCE ROB to approach you, if you can do this, ROB will be punished.

id put ut either 45-55 ROB's favor or 50-50
 

HolyNightmare

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is snake jab to ftilit a true combo if the first jab hits?

watch holy vs ally and ull see that snake has a lot of things to do vs rob =/
That thing is almost unavoidable, jab to ftilt or the classic jab to dgrab followed by mindreading techchase which destroys ROB due to his darn crappy techroll. That thing is awful.
 
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