ROB OFFICIAL MATCHUP DISCUSSION: Toon Link

Part 2 (or 1, depending on the order you read them!) of our double-dosed character discussion (Snake being the other). We really havem't talked AT ALL about Toon Link, and I know that he can be a frustrating matchup, so I feel that he's worth talking about.



GO!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198948
Is old, but can be used as some reference.


And I actually made a huge post with pikshures regarding ROB's projectiles.
Idk if it helps you guys at all though. haha
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6881341&postcount=23



I really dislike this match up, so I'm just goign to wait for a few more posts and just provide more info and stuff.

sasukebowser said:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198948
Is old, but can be used as some reference.


And I actually made a huge post with pikshures regarding ROB's projectiles.
Idk if it helps you guys at all though. haha
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6881341&postcount=23



I really dislike this match up, so I'm just goign to wait for a few more posts and just provide more info and stuff.

Click to expand...

Thanks a ton, I'll definately look through them.

Dull_Razer, I really appreciate the work that you (and everyone else here) have put into these boards to revive them! Great job! Since I don't really have a main, use a lot of characters (all but Peach, Jiggs, Sonic), and lurk a lot of boards, I guess I'll give you guys some input.

ROB's attributes:
+ROB has a better recovery (Impossible to gimp)
+ROB is heavier
+ROB is a better long-range camper because:
Toon Link has only one projectile that can reach the length of FD (strong-boomerang almost can), and it needs to be charged, while ROB has two (but one also needs to be charged to reach that far)
+ROB generally outranges TL on the ground with ftilt and dtilt.
+ROB is a better ledgestaller]
+Has an "item-projectile" that he can glidetoss
+Better dsmash
-Bad kill options aside from gimps (nair is good but it won't kill until 140's on a grounded opponent with average DI)
-Larger frame
-Runs slower
-WEAKSPOT BELOW HIMSELF

TL's advantages:
+Better mid-range camper/spacer (At this range all three projectiles work, which means he can do things like SH bomb pull->quickdraw, Bomb throw->quickdraw, Zair->Bomb SHDA, and he can utilize his boomerang.)
+Has a zair (outranges all of ROB's non-projectile moves when well-spaced)
+Can attack out of an airdodge (zair)
+Can ledgegrab out of an airdodge (zair)
+Bombs cannot be canceled out (only caught)
+He can do aerials with bombs using ZAC/iZAC
+He can bomb recover
+He can safe spike with bombs (especially useful against ROB since his recovery ususally doesn't sweetspot the ledge)
+He can f-smash with bombs
+He can usmash with bombs
+His dsmash CAN gimp ROB if he decides to charge a smash attack at low percentages beside the ledge (extremely situational)
+Excellent recovery which is hard to gimp due to having several options
+Can JC throw his bomb directly out of a dash (his slide looks really amazing, just not as far as ROB's)
+DESTROYS ROB's weakspot with better aerial movement, powerful Usmash and Uair, Utilt juggles, and bair combos.
+Hylian shield stops projectiles if he just stands there or crouches (except it doesn't cover his head or feet when standing, and only his head when crouching, so a well-spaced gyro or well-aimed laser can exploit this)
-Lighter
-Less range overall
-Slow and EXTREMELY punishable grab
-Bad throws overall
-Hard to land kill moves (usmash is hard to set up, although powerful, fsmash can be DI'd out, Dsmash kills at upwards of 150%, fair will really only kill when edgeguarding, uair is powerful but lags a lot if it misses)

Ratio: Between 45:55 and 55:45
What to watch out for, otherwise known as TL;DR: Zair, bombs and bomb mindgames, powerful Usmash, bair combos, midrange camping, quickdraw (hitbox comes out frame 2, fastest move TL has besides z-drop). You two both may have some troubles killing.

EDIT: Lol big wall of text
Here's a list of his AT's: By Fox is Openly Deceptive
It's worth it to take a look at his AT's, as my "What to watch out for" really only covers the basics.

Thank you Nexus for the compliments, and the post. With those in mind, we can move forward in terms of concocting ways to set up situations beneficial to ROB (or disadvantageous to TL), or to minimize the chance that ROB is to be put in a bad position.

Personally, I find ALL SORTS of trouble with the Z-air, and what he can do out of it. Lagless Z-air into a grab before I can do anything, Z-air hitting and then following up with an aerial (or U-smash for the kill) are what gives me LOADS of problems.

Any help with *that* particular facet of the matchup would be greatly appreciated, as IMO, I think that the Z-air set-ups and retreats are the most frustrating part of the matchup, and what (again, IMO) makes it as close as it is.



As your post lays out, TL is harder to gimp than one would expect. An immediate bomb-pull as soon as he is sent flying (or rather, as soon as he is able to after being sent flying) can be helld to create a fantastic "anti-gimp" tool. Essentially, I find that the better TL's out there hold onto their bombs until ROB makes a decision and then act accordingly. Also, I find that if TL gets really far below the stage, he is almost guaranteed to recover due to bombs being sent up, and boomerangs being sent side to side (in the instance you "go over him and to the opposite side"). Also, his N-air comes out ridiculously fast, and so early % gimps seem really, really hard for me in this matchup.

Also, from the TLs Ive played/talked to, they seem to have an easier time B-air chaining ROB for multiple hits (beyond two). What is the best way to DI out of it?

As your post said, ROB wins the 'long-range' game, while TL wins the intermediate/shortrange due to his z-air, and equally fast (or faster?) jab game, and almost (at least it FEELS like it) instantaneous OoS aerials. Question is; how to keep TL in the "long-range' (where ROB wins) with two slow (in terms of how fast we can use them one after the other) projectiles?

I would say the match up is 55:45 TL to 60:40 TL.

Only thing ROB has over us is long range. But thats only at a very long range. On stages like battlefield and pokemon1, that wont really effect us. TL gimps every character generally the same, unless its the down smash gimp on characters with a bad recovery. Other than that, its either gonna be a spike, or a fair off the ledge, and you probably wont live either.(Unless you have great reaction time to DI the fair). When it comes to close range and mid range, we win, for the reasons you guys listed above.

But I have a question for you ROBS.. is lylat a good or bad stage for you. And could you explain why?

TL loses to ROB's dsmash at close range, since it comes out on frame 4, earlier than all of TL's moves. At close-mid range, about where ROB's ftilt hits and TL's ftilt does not, ROB also does well. at this range, his tilts are able to hit TL, and TL doesn't have anything fast enough to punish it, as projectiles would take too long and he needs to jump to zair (ftilt can be angled up). I'm thinking that TL needs to keep ROB between where the tip of his zair hits and a boomerang soft throw away. At that distance it is instead ROB who is at a large disadvantage, and it is where TL excels. Also, TL will win if he keeps the ROB above him. In the end, I think that this matchup heavily depends on the spacing of the two characters and their locations in relation to each other.
If ROB stays far away from TL (on the ground) he is at an advantage due to long-ranged projectiles, although this position will not remain so for long with TL's fast speed and multiple projectiles that aid in approach.
Next it comes to the range I said earlier: Mid-range outside of ROB's tilts. This is the place where TL wants to be, since ROB's projectiles are slower (although longer ranged) than TL's. At this point, ROB's best option would be to try to glide toss retreat so that the situation could be reset to long-range (although ROB would lose some ground). However, if he doesn't have a gyro in hand, then the ROB will be in big trouble. ROB's height makes it much easier for TL's zair to hit him (IMO), and TL's zair will seriously destroy ROB, since he has nothing that can counter it at this range. Here is also where TL can use projectile mixups to their fullest extent and put quite a bit of damage on ROB. At this point, ROB will need to approach TL, and his best options would either be SHAD or perfect shield walk until he gets within tilt range.
Now the situation will return to ROB's favor, as ROB will be close enough to TL to poke him with his dtilt for a likely trip into comboing and his ftilt which is an amazing spacing tool. At this range, only TL's grab will be able to get to ROB, and if it misses, it means a lot of punishment. Here TL's best option would probably be to JC throw his bomb at ROB while retreating, which can give him some breathing room. TL's options here, however, are much better than what ROB's options were at mid-range, since TL is faster and can retreat more easily.
Then there's close range, where both characters have options. At this range ROB's best option would be to dsmash to get TL off of him, since if he lets TL hit him he is in for a lot of pain. However, his dsmash is very good, coming out on frame 4, hitting both sides, and carrying quite a bit of range. If TL shields this, he should be able to punish (not sure on frame data for this one) with one of his extremely fast aerials (nair and bair). If he gets ROB with a bair, then ROB will be in trouble, since his bair combos extremely well. A nair is almost as bad for ROB, as it puts him back into mid-range.

TL;DR: ROB wants TL at long or close-mid range, and TL wants to keep ROB at mid-range.
Also, I've changed my mind about the matchup. Now, I'm leaning more towards TL's favor of between 55:45 and 60:40, like Jerm (a really great TL) said.

TheJerm said:

But I have a question for you ROBS.. is lylat a good or bad stage for you. And could you explain why?

Click to expand...

Lylat's just kind of... "meh, I don't really like it" for ROB because he excels at offstage gimps but short blast zones on either side kind of negate that. It also has a high ceiling which makes for slightly harder killing, at least vertically (ROB's nair, lucky upsmash under a platform, maybe even Uthrow if nothing else). The general slope of the ship can help or hurt ROB's projectiles vs other characters depending on where he is but platforms are never a great thing for ROB, especially when he's trying to recover and half the stage is covered by platforms. ROB needs to control the stage here because the slope and platforms hurt his ledgecamping, especially vs a TL who can harass him with projectiles from the center

Definitely not one of ROB's best stages but it's not drastically matchup-changing like CP'ing Japes vs D3 or anything

Very even matchup. TLink's projectiles are a little slower then ROBs, so that favors ROB but TLink's got speed and an advantage at close range. According to the TLink boards it's a 50-50 matchup but depending on who your asking it could be 55-45 in either characters favor. I tend to think ROB has a slight edge because of his ability to spam lasers faster then Link can match him with his projectiles.

55-45 ROB

omg get subai in hurr

He gave me a long speech once claiming that the easiest way to **** a TL (Sudai beats Hyro and Santi) is to go aggro. And this is coming from Sudai (aka Mr. I Do Not Approach).

The only TL i played tried to out camp me...
It didnt work.
F-tilt seems like a good spacing option for us.
His zair comes out faster than anything we have... and sets up alot of stuff.
I dont have alot of experience in the match up so Ill sit this one out.

Ruse is right, it's all about aggro ROB vs TLink. TLink's comfort zone is right outside our FTilt range which is bad for us..and he can peck at us very well from there.

The only time I really camp TLink is when I have a low, long platform to do so under. IE Frigate, Yoshi's (brawl) or Halberd platforms. Otherwise walking powershields to get in range of FTilt/FAir and it's too easy. That's all I have to say here though cause I just searched my name..**** you Ruse.

Sudai said:

Ruse is right, it's all about aggro ROB vs TLink. TLink's comfort zone is right outside our FTilt range which is bad for us..and he can peck at us very well from there.

The only time I really camp TLink is when I have a low, long platform to do so under. IE Frigate, Yoshi's (brawl) or Halberd platforms. Otherwise walking powershields to get in range of FTilt/FAir and it's too easy. That's all I have to say here though cause I just searched my name..**** you Ruse.

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****.

Come to LasT3 and have him watch me vs Hyro?

Me and Hyro had a set on the Louisiana Stream on Sunday he could have watched too. :x

No, I'll be at last 3. Watch me vs sudai >]

I'm trying to get Manko to come to LasT 3. Hope he doesn't work/girlfriend John ):.

Gah. I really dislike this matchup because it forces me to play really differently
I have not ONCE beat Chip in tourney up here in WA. I've taken games off, but never the set.
Aggro is best, but camping can be valuable at times.

40-60 TL's advantage IMO