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Wario Time: Wario's Weekly Matchups. Week 9- Olimar

O

omegablackmage

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no i understand how breaking the bike works, i've always just viewed it as a really risky thing to do, especially against mk and his above par edgeguarding. One slip up with your bike out on the stage and you could certainly not recover. This, i assume, is why i never see wario players chase mk's offstage with the bike to either go for the high up air kill/offstage nair/fair/fart or what not.
 
Excellence

Excellence

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I don't think people believe its really a solution to everything, but it is an option. We're all trying to find ways to approach Meta Knight.

From what I've gather, Wario's approach completely determined by Meta Knight's approach or retreat.
 
PhantomX

PhantomX

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Wario has to play against MK just like against everyone else that outprioritizes him (Luigi). A lot of bait and punish. MK doesn't have the ultimate combo breaker though (that nair).
 
Ace55

Ace55

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Excellence said:
I didn't mean to make you feel insulted or anything, if I did. I just thought that Meta Knight's FAir would cut them if it did hit them. It always good to be productive man, the more options you have the better.
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I was under the impression that MK is the only character unable to swat away projectiles (like samus her rockets) using attacks. But he can swat away the tires?

Edit: nice that you started this Blitzkrieg.
 
:mad:

:mad:

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Yeah, I'm glad we just started a re-discussion. And surprisingly... I've never fought a good Meta Knight. Lol, Florida has tons, but I usually come across more Dededes and Game and Watches.
 
_Phloat_

_Phloat_

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Masky said:
LOL @ people thinking breaking the bike is the SOLUTION TO EVERYTHING. A good MK player won't let that happen
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No one said it was the solution to everything =\.


Anyways, what stages do you guys CP with Wario against MK? I like RC, but only because I know the level better than anyone I play against in tournaments, not for a Wario related reason. I know he is good there, but.. MK is too. And I like landing fart when the characters are rising, and knocking them to the left... kills too early.
 
:mad:

:mad:

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Masky said:
Wait... what recent FL tournaments have you been to?
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Nothing in the last two months. Can't afford to travel to Gigs, I mostly just do local Smashfests with about 10 - 15 people in my same neighborhood. But they're all pretty competitive, I can't actually afford it any more... so... I'm stuck with wi-fi now.
 
MorphedChaos

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Good stage is Halberd, MK really can't abuse the platform as much as you can, but he can go under the stage. The reason the stage is so good is that MK doesn't kill vertically, but we do most of the time, and it has a very low ceiling, as well as having somewhat big blastlines.
 
PhantomX

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Good luck getting past a campy, brickwalling MK when he stands under the Halberd platform all day.

I usually die to chasing fresh upairs and invincible/grounded up bs, btw, both which kill vertical.
 
_Phloat_

_Phloat_

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Plenty of space to get tires out =P.

Personally, at halberd I will play the game a lot based on my damage. Like, when I have a lot of damage I will waste time until the large stage transformation. (Does it have bigger blastzones, or is that my imagination?). I will play near the middle of the stage, sometimes giving up an opening for attack to airdodge past MK and get on the inside of him. He really can't kill Wario until VERY late if you do this well, and DI very well. The biggest danger is getting your approach SLed, and that will send you to a (relatively) early demise. Also, save your F-smash for kills, as WC said, it is a large blastzone'd stage. Clap is a good killer, but don't save it if you have an opportunity to land it, the high damage is well worth it IMO.


EDIT: I never try and confront MK at high altitudes when I am in kill %... My airspeed will allow me to not confront him if I choose. Being chased off the side is a problem though. I don't play MK's that tornado aggressively at that height, so I dunno if the tornado can catch Wario's airspeed. Dairing it is a risk =\.
 
Excellence

Excellence

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_Phloat_ said:
No one said it was the solution to everything =\.


Anyways, what stages do you guys CP with Wario against MK? I like RC, but only because I know the level better than anyone I play against in tournaments, not for a Wario related reason. I know he is good there, but.. MK is too. And I like landing fart when the characters are rising, and knocking them to the left... kills too early.
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Any stage with a low ceiling and or close blast zone are good, but be careful of your platform placement. If the stage has a low ceiling then I'd use Upward Aerial and Wafts to kill Meta Knight. On stages with lower ceilings, I'm a bit more liberal with my usage of FSmash. On stages with high ceilings and closer blasts zones, I'll do the opposite; more Upward Aerial and less Forward Smash.
 
_Phloat_

_Phloat_

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I like the small blast zones, but at the same time I really, really hate them. All a MK has to do is get you in a bad DIing situation because you were weaving, and boom, early kill. Wario cannot take early kills in this matchup... Getting them is nice, but getting them done sucks.

MK covers his weaknesses with strengths too well. Sure, he moves slow.. but you can't weave in and out of him because he is so fast and so ranged. He dies fast, but kills really early, and his kill moves land quite well... Which is a huge advantage. Back when I played GaW, who is hard pressed to actually land a kill move on MK, stages with large blast zones were actually prefered, because the extra life I got was worth the small survivability. I digress...

He covers his weaknesses too well with his adaptability, so a lot of stage choice is personal preferance. What PhantomX said about the platform is all too true, I like FD against MK. FD against MK WOULD be really solid, except stuffing your stuffs with his SL OOS is now a huge problem.

Sigh.
 
Excellence

Excellence

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_Phloat_ said:
I like the small blast zones, but at the same time I really, really hate them. All a MK has to do is get you in a bad DIing situation because you were weaving, and boom, early kill. Wario cannot take early kills in this matchup... Getting them is nice, but getting them done sucks.

MK covers his weaknesses with strengths too well. Sure, he moves slow.. but you can't weave in and out of him because he is so fast and so ranged. He dies fast, but kills really early, and his kill moves land quite well... Which is a huge advantage. Back when I played GaW, who is hard pressed to actually land a kill move on MK, stages with large blast zones were actually prefered, because the extra life I got was worth the small survivability. I digress...

He covers his weaknesses too well with his adaptability, so a lot of stage choice is personal preferance. What PhantomX said about the platform is all too true, I like FD against MK. FD against MK WOULD be really solid, except stuffing your stuffs with his SL OOS is now a huge problem.

Sigh.
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I don't think it's personal preference, to be completely frank with you. MK's horizontal recover means you have to kill him or he's coming back and you probably won't be able to stop him since a good Meta Knight will momentum cancel with Upward Aerial then Glide to negate all remaining momentum going away from the stage. That being said, we should take decide does Forward Smash or Upward Aerial kill more reliably and which is easier to land against Meta Knight. I, personally, feel as though Forward Smash is a little easier to land that Upward Aerial without playforms and Upward Aerial is a lot easier to land with platforms. That being said, I'd look for stages Wario is good on that include platforms and Upward Aerial, Meta Knight.
 
_Phloat_

_Phloat_

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Excellence said:
I don't think it's personal preference, to be completely frank with you. MK's horizontal recover means you have to kill him or he's coming back and you probably won't be able to stop him since a good Meta Knight will momentum cancel with Upward Aerial then Glide to negate all remaining momentum going away from the stage. That being said, we should take decide does Forward Smash or Upward Aerial kill more reliably and which is easier to land against Meta Knight. I, personally, feel as though Forward Smash is a little easier to land that Upward Aerial without playforms and Upward Aerial is a lot easier to land with platforms. That being said, I'd look for stages Wario is good on that include platforms and Upward Aerial, Meta Knight.
Click to expand...

I think it is personal preference, to be completely frank with you. Wario's horizontal recovery means you have to kill him or he is coming back. You probably won't be able to stop him since a good Wario will use his superior air speed and good air dodge to return to the stage.


A stage that makes killing MK harder also makes killing Wario harder.
 
MorphedChaos

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I'm trying a new aircamp strategy vs MK on Norfair, and it looks like it works very well. He can't kill you very well, and he can't catch you, so I could say with aircamping it might be in Wario's advantage on Norfair, just like the D3 matchup.

Maybe if I can pull this off readily, then Wario will be very good when it comes to different stages? I mean, MK has to be in the air most of the time to attack us on Norfair, so with his abysmal air speed and low KOing ability, it would work. I've done it once, but I believe it was a scrubby MK though.
 
PhantomX

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MK has a very fast glide, though, and then when the lava closes the battlefield into just one platform, he can easily screw you, then he proceeds to plank with upairs and ledge invince and you lose.
 
MorphedChaos

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Gotta use the bike to jump over the lava, Wario can float for a long time. And really the glide means nothing, its very easy to punish with a Dair or Nair. Biggest thing here is if you can get a stock lead, it means he loses since he can not land a kill move on you until your at like 260% or you die to lava.
 
PhantomX

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On a stage like Norfair, where MK can easily get beneath you to spam his 2 frame upair, it's more likely that you be behind the entire time, especially if they take to planking.
 
Excellence

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How about this for "approaching"?

Wario's approach is a little dependent on what the Meta Knight player when either approaching or defending himself against Wario. If he's approaching with Forward Aerial, Wario can air dodge through it and punish. If they're doing rising Downard Aerial, you can spot dodge them, Upward Aerial them, or Upward Tilt them. If Meta Knight is using retreating Forward Aerials, its very difficult to get inside, but you shouldn't try to punish unless Meta Knight makes a very obvious slip up. When they initially start the Forward Aerial, you can use your own Forward Aerial to get inside. You can also bait Meta Knight into using Forward Aerial and with a well spaced shield you can grab him. There is also grooming the Meta Knight into repeatidly using Forward Aerial then using Bike to ram into him as he touches the ground. If the stage is smaller or you're more confined, you could jump over his Forward Aerial and DAir him or use the super armor frames on a boosted Forward Smash to hit him through his attack. Meta Knight should be using Tornado too much against Wario for obvious reasons, but if he does DI up then get your free Downard Aerial.
 
MorphedChaos

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Straked said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0nc8l0XKEY

Wario vs. MK on Norfair... no thanks.
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That Wario was terrible, didn't aircamp right at all. So my point is still valid of Norfair being a good stage, just get the first hit, or if MK just keeps planking, he gets banned for stalling, OR you have some very good evidence to institute a ledge grab rule.

Really, you literally gotta play super ultra mega gay to make norfair work vs MK.

Now, if they add the ledge grab rule, then MK is boned on Norfair, since the only way he can win is planking on that stage.
 
:mad:

:mad:

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That was a little harash, Masky. And really, Redhalberd only did that so he could put the video up. He's actually an amazing Meta Knight.
 
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