New Marth Tech- Retreating Pivot Grab

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

This is more an unknown combination of two other techniques rather than a brand new one. The two techs you combine here are True Pivots and Pivot Grabbing.

Don't know what a true pivot is or how to perform it? Read this thread before you move on: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4292745#post4292745

Explanation:

Now, onto the technique. What you are essentially doing is linking a true pivot to a pivot grab. If done correctly, Marth will dash and then immediately retreat with a pivot grab. You should get a rather large slide backwards if you perform it correctly. This is a pretty technical maneuver and the timing is strict so expect to mess up quite a bit at first.

I'll break down the steps into controller inputs, assume that you are facing to the right:

Right>Wait>Right>Left>Right+Grab

By "wait," I mean the amount of time you would wait in order to initiate another dash when you are fox-trotting.

Here is how it looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tq0ubY58tI

Utility:

Now you may be wondering what this could possibly be used for, here is a list of possible benefits of using the Retreating Pivot Grab.

-Leaves a lot of distance between you and the opponent if you miss, so it is less punishable then a dash grab or shield canceled grab.
-Can be used to punish rolls or as a tech chase
-Can be used out of a fox-trot
-Pushes you and the opponent backwards upon connecting the grab
-Good range

I haven't tested it much, but it looks promising.

*EDIT: Here is the frame data for this, just tested it.

Frame 0: Input Dash
Frames 1-3: In Initial Dash animation
Frames 4-15: Input Forward Dash (if input on frame 4, you must hold forward during at least 5th frame as well)
Frames 5-15: In Dash animation
Frames 16-21: Cancelable Stand/Beginning of Second Dash, Input Backwards Dash now (THE REST OF THE DATA WILL ASSUME THE BACKWARDS DASH WAS INPUTTED ON FRAME 16)
Frames 17-18: Pivot, input grab on frame 18
Frames 19-20: Backwards Dash Begins (19) + Grab Begins (19). Input direction opposite of which you are currently facing (same direction as initial dash) *No more inputs needed*
Frame 21-27: Pivot Grab animation starts
Frame 28: Grabbox comes out
Frame 55: IASA

Post questions, comments, or findings here.

BacklashMarth · Apr 28, 2009

Sugoi. I'm impressed. I was wondering what you were doing besides lurking all day lol. I'm gonna learn this when i get home today. I can see this as a useful way to grab MK hopefully since approaching is hard and this allows u to retreat and be somewhat offensive at the same time.

P.S. BOOYAH, FIRST READER!

phi1ny3 · Apr 28, 2009

Amen to this! Finally, someone with a video! I've been telling people about this, it makes pivot grab a little more than a spotdodge punisher. I thought this was already discovered.

MikeSanti · Apr 28, 2009

This **** is hot as fuhh. Nice find Bengals.

|RK| · Apr 28, 2009

Meh. I did something like this the other day with Lucario. Hard to get off consistently, but he slides back too. All you gotta do is QP. For Lucario anyway. BTW, that means Quick Pivot. Easy to do. Lucario slid back as he stretched his arms out further. Due to this, I believe this isn't Marth specific nor really new, so...

EDIT: 1111 AM I LUCKY NAO?!

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

RK Joker said:
Meh. I did something like this the other day with Lucario. Hard to get off consistently, but he slides back too. All you gotta do is QP. For Lucario anyway. BTW, that means Quick Pivot. Easy to do. Lucario slid back as he stretched his arms out further. Due to this, I believe this isn't Marth specific nor really new, so...

EDIT: 1111 AM I LUCKY NAO?!

The beauty of this is that it can be used as an approach. The "QP" is done standing.

I'm sure there are a few other characters who get a slide, but like I said I've barely done any testing.

|RK| · Apr 28, 2009

I see. ~~Hey, you should post this in the Tactical Discussion.~~

Nvm. As if MK needs a new tech for people to whine about...

MikeSanti · Apr 28, 2009

RK Joker said:
I see. ~~Hey, you should post this in the Tactical Discussion.~~

Nvm. As if MK needs a new tech for people to whine about...

Nah lol, I can't seem to pull it off with MK.

BacklashMarth · Apr 28, 2009

I would say do a similiar thing for this thread as the "Marth has awesome hair" thread but some other ppl may already know about this tech anyway (not to discredit you for posting a thread making the tech clear with vids n' such). Plus, we got Joker over here and Lord knows jesters dont keep secrets. Idrc if the MK's find out because they are too busy using their other annoying..er..."effective" approaches to learn a new option anyway (as if they needed another one -.-)

|RK| · Apr 28, 2009

I resent that. It stands for...

Red King Joker

Or just RKJ. Lord knows that the very best Brawlers can't have a name over 4 letters.

Otherwise you've lost already. M2K, DSF, Ally, Dojo...

MikeSanti · Apr 28, 2009

RK Joker said:
I resent that. It stands for...

Red King Joker

Or just RKJ. Lord knows that the very best Brawlers can't have a name over 4 letters.

Otherwise you've lost already. M2K, DSF, Ally, Dojo...

Awesome, I fit in that category then since my name is pretty much STFU.

aha ha. So yeah I've been trying this tech with some of the roster and to no avail. Cant pull it off with Snake, MK, DDD which is good.

KillL0ck · Apr 28, 2009

I was just fiddling with this, and within a matter of a second I found a few nice things about it.

-Doing a quick dash dance(Left and right almost immediately after the other), then pressing Grab and Left/Right on the C-Stick, you'll perform the Pivot Grab in that direction, plus the slide(Or no slide if you do it fast enough while still retaining the pivot grab range, this will most likely replace the normal stand up grab).

In BengalsRZ's example, you don't exactly need to do the dash to start it off, but it IS an extension off of the base technique. Indeed this is a great find today. I'm happy to contribute to this.

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

RK Joker said:
I see. ~~Hey, you should post this in the Tactical Discussion.~~

Nvm. As if MK needs a new tech for people to whine about...

Haha, I'll probably make a topic in tactical once I test it out for all characters and see who can/can't do it.

BacklashMarth said:
I would say do a similiar thing for this thread as the "Marth has awesome hair" thread but some other ppl may already know about this tech anyway (not to discredit you for posting a thread making the tech clear with vids n' such). Plus, we got Joker over here and Lord knows jesters dont keep secrets. Idrc if the MK's find out because they are too busy using their other annoying..er..."effective" approaches to learn a new option anyway (as if they needed another one -.-)

Lol, same here. Don't really care if anyone finds out. They'll know eventually, right?

StaFu said:
aha ha. So yeah I've been trying this tech with some of the roster and to no avail. Cant pull it off with Snake, MK, DDD which is good.

Good, here's hoping it doesn't work for Olimar.

KillL0ck said:
I was just fiddling with this, and within a matter of a second I found a few nice things about it.

-Doing a quick dash dance(Left and right almost immediately after the other), then pressing Grab and Left/Right on the C-Stick, you'll perform the Pivot Grab in that direction, plus the slide(Or no slide if you do it fast enough while still retaining the pivot grab range, this will most likely replace the normal stand up grab).

In BengalsRZ's example, you don't exactly need to do the dash to start it off, but it IS an extension off of the base technique. Indeed this is a great find today. I'm happy to contribute to this.

I believe what you are talking about is a Quick Pivot Grab, which is better done by pressing Back>C-stick forward + Grab. The retreating pivot grab that I explained above is a quick pivot grab but off of a dash.

_Icy_ · Apr 28, 2009

Nice find, begals ^_^

KillL0ck · Apr 28, 2009

Yes, but you can do the same thing, without the dash(So if I were in front of my opponent, I wouldn't need to dash but go right into it immediately). However, if you have enough space, the dash to pivot grab is also a nice bonus, but it still works off of the base technique.

P.S:

Example as in, instead of:

Right>Wait>Right>Left>Right+Grab

I can go:

Right>Wait>Right>Left>Grab+Right C-Stick(I feel it's much easier to do this way)

lol nvm

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

_Icy_ said:
Nice find, begals ^_^

Thanks

KillL0ck said:
Yes, but you can do the same thing, without the dash(So if I were in front of my opponent, I wouldn't need to dash but go right into it immediately). However, if you have enough space, the dash to pivot grab is also a nice bonus, but it still works off of the base technique.

Yes, that is just a quick pivot grab. (Which is highly known btw)

As I said earlier, retreating pivot grab is just a dash > quick pivot grab in scope.

MikeSanti · Apr 28, 2009

KillL0ck said:
Yes, but you can do the same thing, without the dash(So if I were in front of my opponent, I wouldn't need to dash but go right into it immediately).

~~But that would just be a regular pivot grab would it not?~~

BengalsRZ hit the spot:

BengalsRZ said:
Yes, this is just a quick pivot grab.

As I said earlier, retreating pivot grab is just a dash > quick pivot grab in scope.

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

Wait do you get the slide when you do the quick pivot grab. Cause Ive been testing this and Ive gotten a slide with several characters WITHOUT having to dash fist. Just, when facing right, dash right and then left in quick succession. Immediately afterwards, do the pivot grab and you slide just like you explained in the official post.

Anyways, I hope Im doing this right cause here are the test results (Ill update as I do more):

Mario: Yes Slide: about half his body length so not much

Luigi: Yes Slide: about 1 step forward (1 and 1/2 body lengths I believe)

Peach: No I could be hard. It was hard to tell if she slid with her dress flying around

Bowser: No He actually moves very slightly but I didnt count it cause its so little

DK: No

Diddy: Yes Slide: He actually slides pretty far. It goes about as far as his Dash
Animation

Yoshi: Yes Slide: The side of the middle diamond on FD to the inside of the first arrow

Wario: Yes Slide: about 1 body length

As I said above, Ill update this as I go along. I hope I wasnt doing this wrong though. Please clarify if the Quick Pivot Grab has a slide. If it doesnt, then this technique is possible without the begging dash.

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

Quick pivot grab does have a slide.

Is that testing with or without the initial dash?

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

Without the initial dash.
But when I do your method, I get the same slide as when I do it my method. I dont see how the dash makes this technique different from a QPG then

Should I still continue my way or do you want me to restart my testing using yours?

Darxmarth23 · Apr 28, 2009

Nice find.

∫unk · Apr 28, 2009

if you're getting that close without getting punished i would think something guaranteed like a db setup would be better

related to your other discovery thread... how are those movement developments coming along for you in your playstyle? *legitimately curious*

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

**Testing Update**

Heres a couple more characters. Once again, I was using the method with no ID before the true pivot to pivot grab. Anyways here goes:

Link: Yes Slide: About one body length

Sheik: Yes Slide: About the length of her Initial Dash Animation

Zelda: Yes Slide: About the length of her Initial Dash Animation

Ganon: Yes Slide: About the length of her Initial Dash Animation

TL: Yes Slide: The side of the middle diamond on FD to the inside of the first arrow

Samus: No

ZSS: Yes Slide: Side of diamond on FD to the first arrow (she ends up standing on it)

Pit: Yes Slide: About 5 squares one the floor of FD (it was hard to tell but it looked like 1 and a half body lengths)

ROB: Yes Slide: Half of his body length

ICs: Yes Slide: The body length of ONE Ice Climber (Nana or Popo)

En.Ee.Oh · Apr 28, 2009

-party pooper-

if you do a dash attack cancelled pivot grab you slide everytime

or if you do the grab first then hit the pivot direction, you also slide everytime

it's dangerous to dash forward that close to someone w/o being able to activate your shield just for a grab

looks cool tho

|RK| · Apr 28, 2009

This actually follows the same momentum shifting principle as RARing... Wonder what else you can do with this...? Possibly A retreating Shield Breaker? You must test these things...

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

This isnt a DAC Pivot grab for sure. You dont input any attack.

And Ive never heard of hitting grab and then the pivot direction so I dont know if this is the same thing (thought I dont think it is)

Try just Dash Dancing in place and then hit side+Z at any time. You should get a slide while grabbing behind you.

Also, I cant use my Wii right now cause my bros watching TV so either someone else can continue testing or Ill have results on the rest of the cast later on today.

EDIT: I think RKJ it. It makes sense since you do the pivot grab near the beginning of the initial dash animation and all that momentum has to go somewhere.

|RK| · Apr 28, 2009

Huh...

Y'know, normally wen doing a pivot grab, I slide forward a bit, then the grab animation starts. I suppose I wasn't really pivoting, then. When I spin around rally quickly, he actually extends his arms fully and slides back. No wonder I could pivot with FP. Maybe this way I would, and that'd be a sweet grab... with the Flame and a retreat for defense...

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

Bellioes said:
Without the initial dash.
But when I do your method, I get the same slide as when I do it my method. I dont see how the dash makes this technique different from a QPG then

Should I still continue my way or do you want me to restart my testing using yours?

The difference is that the one I found is used as an approach. Also, I'll use your testing and credit you if I make a new thread on Tactical.

Darxmarth23 said:
Nice find.

thanks :D

JunkInTheTrunk said:
if you're getting that close without getting punished i would think something guaranteed like a db setup would be better

related to your other discovery thread... how are those movement developments coming along for you in your playstyle? *legitimately curious*

I suppose you are right, though I haven't really done enough testing so it could have some utility beyond what I've experienced. Only time will tell.

Regarding my older discoveries: The pivot walking I kind of gave up on. I use it occasionally as a simple mixup, but it's not very useful. I like the ZAD a lot more though (first tech demonstrated here incase you don't know what it is), it's actually a pretty nice fakeout and can be linked to DB and pivot grabs which is a nice addition.

X-slow run is also tricky, I've attempted to use it in matches but haven't noticed many benefits besides my opponent going "wtf," same with ledge running.

En.Ee.Oh said:
-party pooper-

if you do a dash attack cancelled pivot grab you slide everytime

or if you do the grab first then hit the pivot direction, you also slide everytime

it's dangerous to dash forward that close to someone w/o being able to activate your shield just for a grab

dash attack cancelled pivot grab? never heard of this, lol. please explain

In response to the last part, wouldn't you just absorb the damage and still get the grab if they attacked you? Not necessarily a great trade-off but at least it's not totally unsafe. again i'm still working on finding ways to use this, but i know what you mean.

hopefully it turns out to be useful.

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

Well the DAC Pivot grab is where you do a dash attack with c-stick down (at least the most common method use c-stick down) and then immediately cancel it with a pivot grab. You sort of get the same effect as this techniques except that the lengths of the slide are different. For example, Diddys DAC pivot grab is like half the distance of his Quick Pivot grab.

Also, I think this could, as someone said earlier, replace the standing grab for certain characters (as in using the technique without the initial dash in the beginning). For less than half a second more, you gain the ability to retreat while grabbing making it harder to grab. I especially see this being used in spot dodge wars to throw the opponents timing off and to attack while retreating at the same time.

As for the differences in the methods, since the slides are the same and the only difference between the two is the application; why dont you just add the other one as an alternate method. The two methods have their uses and people might should know the two methods.

EDIT: You know what? I myself dont really see how you would use your method. All I can it see it used for is against characters with sucky approaches. As in the characters whos approaches are really predictable and are all shieldgrabbable (Fox and his Dair/Nair approaches come to mind). If the opponents just shields, you can dash in and then retreating grab back outve range. The problem is... if the opponent has fast enough reactions, I believe they can still grab you when your inputting the pivoting part once they see you didnt short hop. It seems a little risky to me as an approach.

Remzi · Apr 28, 2009

I'm thinking that it would mainly be used when you really need a grab. Like if I'm playing against a campy D3 and I want the fthrowx3 > usmash combo, I might use the retreating pivot grab to get it.

I need to test this more in game though.

Odigo · Apr 28, 2009

BengalsRZ said:
dash attack cancelled pivot grab? never heard of this, lol. please explain

Falco??????

Bellioes · Apr 28, 2009

Hey BengalsRZ, I posted this in the Diddy boards for discussion BUT I gave all credit for discovery of the technique to you. So yeah I hope you dont mind. If you want, I can edit it and have a mod lock it though I hope thats not the case.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Apr 28, 2009

This seems pretty cool.

Arbiter · Apr 28, 2009

Nice find.

So pretty much you're just pivoting and then pivot grabbing?

Once you get the timing down it shouldn't be too hard.

Xisin · Apr 28, 2009

Same type of grab i posted about when i was talking to shaya about grabbing a snake in mortar slide w/o getting blown up.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Apr 29, 2009

How can this be applied? Have you tried using this out of MK grab release to garuentee a re grab. Can this extend his chain grab?

Inle~Orichas · Apr 29, 2009

it doesn't look like a boost, rather an alteration of the direction of momentum. However, the range does increase, so it could conceivably make a grab release chain-grab "possible".

BacklashMarth · Apr 29, 2009

Wouldnt the inputs take too long to make this an effective chaining tool? I think frame data is an order. SHAYA, GET IN HERE!

Bellioes · Apr 29, 2009

**FINISHED TESTING**

So yeah, I finished the rest of cast today. Heres the rest of the data.

Kirby: No (I actually thought he moved a little but it was so small I couldnt really be sure)

MK: yes

Slide: As long as his Initial Dash Animation

DDD: No (Like Kirby, I thought I saw him barely move but I might be wrong.)

Olimar: Yes Slide: The diamond on FD to the inside edge of the first arrow

Fox: Yes Slide: 1 body length

Falco: Yes Slide: 1 body length

Wolf: Yes Slide: As long as his Initial Dash Animation

Pika: Yes Slide: As long as his Initial Dash Animation

CF: Yes Slide: 1-2 steps

Squirtle: Yes Slide: A little further than his Initial Dash Animation

Ivysaur: Yes Slide: 1.5 body lengths

Charzard: Yes Slide: The diamond on FD to the inside edge of the first arrow

Lucario: Yes Slide: As long as his Initial Dash Animation

Jigglypuff: No

Ike: Yes Slide: 1 body length

Ness: Yes Slide: As long as his Initial Dash Animation

Lucas: No

G&W: Yes Slide: As far as three squares on the floor of FD

Snake: Yes Slide: As far as 3-4 squares on the floor of FD

Sonic: Yes Slide: 1 body length

Marth: Yes Slide: The diamond on FD to on top of the first arrow.

So yeah thats it. Hopes this helped. Also, for more than half of the cast, I noticed that most of the characters slides are equal to the slide they get from a regular dash grab. Its not true of all characters but if you guys want, I can go through all the characters again and say which ones are the same and which ones arent. Tell me what you guys think.

Palpi · Apr 29, 2009

RK Joker said:
I see. ~~Hey, you should post this in the Tactical Discussion.~~

Nvm. As if MK needs a new tech for people to whine about...

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Nothing escapes me.

Pivot grabs do extend the vertical grab range.

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