Weird chain grab glitch with TL and DDD

sixflags11804 · Apr 30, 2009

I don't know if you guys know this already, but if you boost pivot grab either DDD or TL into the edge of the stage (you are facing the stage with TL or DDD between you and the edge. Then you boost pivot grab and now you are on the edge while holding them), then start down throwing them, they barely move away from you at all. You can basically stand still and get 4 or 5 standing chain grabs on them.

Now here is the interesting part. Something else weird happens with toon link. Once you chain grab him on the edge of the stage to like 40 percent damage, the next time you down throw him, he will just land in front of you as if you just spiked him to the ground. Now you can easily get a free forward smash on him if you time it right after you down throw him, but there is something else that might work, laser lock.

This is where I need your help. I tried to laser lock him on FD, and the first laser connects! He even goes through the motion of being laser locked. But he is able to avoid the second laser because somehow, hthe laser is too high for him to get hit. So, I went to another stage with slants. I tried the right side of Yoshi's island, but he doesn't do the same animation (landing on the ground as if just been spiked) as FD. Then I went to lylat cruise. Lylat actually worked for about 8 lasers. But then the stage started tilting some more and my laser went over his head.

Anyways, I haven't looked into DDD that much. I know that you can CG to spike him when he has more damage than him being cg'd normally. I also haven't tried out all the characters falco can do this with. But give this thing a try and tell me what you think.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 30, 2009

I know I haven't heard anything about this.

Buffered grabs seemed to be needed to grab TL standing still though.

cookieM0Nster · Apr 30, 2009

Video, please?

Denzi · Apr 30, 2009

I knew this would get out eventually.

It works with TLink and Diddy as far as we could figure out.

Tlink can't be LLocked because he's too small normally, and Diddy bounces too fast to be regularly LaserLocked.

HOWEVER

Tlink, like you seem to have discovered, can be Llocked when the stage is a different height, which leads to things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoNIbdI8y_s

And to find a way to laserlock Diddy, platforms had to be involved, which actually means that Falco has an infinate on the entire cast (situationaly). Diddy and TLink are the only ones guaranteed to get caught in it though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqKGFcZfhY&feature=channel_page

FRIGGIN INSANITY!

Credit for all of this nonsense goes to Pure Awesome.

EDIT: KEEP ALL OF THIS CONFINED TO THIS THREAD. We don't want this to be made known quickly/at all, so don't spread it around. Seriously.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 30, 2009

Wow. Out for a month and hardly anyone knew about it.

Why keep it underwraps?

I mean this seems like a guranteed method to get a lot of damage on TL. Just do that till the edge. After 40% fire one laser and they will be forced to get up and from there you can try just about anything else.

CG 40% > single Laser > Dair> Dair or Uptilt

pure_awesome · Apr 30, 2009

I didn't want to tell anyone to let some of the Falco's work their magic at WHOBO. But I waited too long and guys like Ozz didn't have any time to practice, so they couldn't use it. I guess I was kind of wondering if I could keep it kind of quiet until Genesis. I'd love to pull this out of left field on like Santi or someone. My Rainbow Cruise infinite has also been up for a while. Just sift through my Youtube account, you'll find all kinds of crazy nonsense.

Also, it works occasionally on Pika, but only on platforms, like Diddy.

It's a very bizarre thing, and I kind of stopped testing it for a while because I was getting frustrated with it.

By the way, I'm only credited for the combos and applications. The actual tech was found by Vlade, and it is OFFICIALLY called "Splatting".

I'm also looking into several ways to make these combos much more effective, as well as a potential 0-Death combo on Smashville. Falco is way deeper than people think and will probably end up being the high tier character that demands the most tech skill to use at maximum level.

EDIT: I can answer pretty much every question you have about this aside from "Why the hell won't it consistently work on platforms?"

That question infuriates me.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 30, 2009

I'm noticing a key feature. Pretty much all of Falco's combos seem to be very situtional and CG applied.

I still think that CG TL to the proper percent to a single laser seems to be the most effective CG falco has against TL when you can get it to that edge. I mean you can pretty much get a guranteed 70% or so with that > dair > uptilt compared to the conventional CG > dair > tech chase.

I'm interested in this now to test out some more stuff.

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Actually Pure_Awesome, it works on Pika too. You just have to chain grab him once (or maybe give me a little bit of damage), and then pivot boost grab him into the edge. I found similar results with Pika as TL though.

I'm going to look at this some more though. I know you can basically do a standing cg on DDD at the edge, I'm just wondering what else you could do to give him damage afterwards.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

Does it work on Pika on the edge? It's been a while, I would have to go dig through the FBR posts to find it. I think it might be Mario that it only works on platforms. Someone, anyway. See Edit.

I like to Splat -> Laser -> Nair -> Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow because it gets TLink offstage and is flashy as hell. It's definitely not his best option though, I don't even think it's guaranteed. Also, PictoChat against Toon Link is like like 70:30 or something.

Also, you're 100% right that much of Falco's game is about applying the CG. It's extremely useful since so many things can be done with it and out of it. Boost Pivot Grabbing was a gift from the Gods and is the reason Falco will be top tier in the future (although I kind of doubt he will be on the next tier list.)

I also agree that most of his combos are situational. Thing is, the number of situations that we've got covered is growing. It's going to take alot longer for Falco's metagame to develop than other characters, and I suspect that's why many players are moving away from Falco right now.

EDIT:
Here's my post in the BackRoom regarding characters, fairly early into our research into it.

I've got it to work with Diddy Kong and Mario, and it just kind of works whenever it feels like it. I've only ever got it to work on platforms, though. Unfortunately, neither of them would be laser lockable anyway, since Diddy Kong bounces too fast and Mario isn't Laser Lockable when face down.

It does work on Pikachu on both platforms and the main stage, which is nice considering the new CG they just got on us. Unfortunately, Pikachu (say it with me now) isn't Laser Lockable when face down. So he's relegated to PictoChat and similar areas, like Toon Link.

The one difference between the Pika Chaingrab and the Toon Link Chaingrab is that Pika can't be standing chaingrabbed while on the edge. That means you have to set up your chaingrab and plan in advance so that your last grab is your boost grab.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

With each new thing I'm more interested in learning falco. I just don't have the really pro skills yet as I play online and CPU more than offline. Actually, I've only once played against someone offline as falco and that was rare.

"Splat -> Laser -> Nair -> Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow"

Doop Walking a CG is more flashy than that xD

I just remembered something. The gatling combo. It's there yet no one hardly ever uses it I forget it exists. Splat > Laser > Gatling Combo for the inexperienced and guranteed ~70%

Now, if we could only find something that would ease falco's horrible killing luck. I mean we got damage racking solved like no tomorrow, but killing still a pain.

Just today I fought a peach on pictochat and it wasn't till I managed to shine a strong turnip right back at them that they finally died at 275% and win the match x.x

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Yes, it does work against Pika on the edge as well. Is Pictochat a banned stage or what? I've never really played there on AiB or the tournaments I went to.

SuSa · May 1, 2009

Falco boards never cease to amaze me.

So who do I give my bread to on my way out? Vlade, right?

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

Give bread to pure for testing, Vlade for discovery and probably sixflags for public attention if you will.

@pure: I think the problem with the splatting problem is that it is stale and percent based.

Emperor Time · May 1, 2009

Holy ****. They THOUGHT we were going down on the tier list.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

It doesn't appear to be a problem of staleness, since I also tested it in Training mode to check exactly that. The percent shouldn't be an issue, since I've seen it happen at pretty much every percent under 50. Then I thought it was dependant on Diddy's DI, then on the timing for when you throw. I wasn't able to find ANYTHING.

I do know that it seems to be based on Falco's position. I know this because if you manage to make Diddy splat on a platform and you don't move Falco, Diddy (or Mario or Pika or TLink) will Splat 100% of the time. Falco can jump up and down, dropthrough, shield, whatever. As long as he doesn't move to the side at all, 100% consistency. Of course, if you move to the side and then try to go back to the exact same spot, it doesn't work. So I'm back being generally confused and mad.

Also, the we were trying to figure something out before. Was the Shorthop Double Laser Lock on Battlefield's platforms known before my video? When I made the tech I just kind of... did it, and didn't really think twice about whether it was discovered or not. Someone (Ozz?) pointed it out and was like "Dude, what the hell."

Emperor Time said:
Holy ****. They THOUGHT we were going down on the tier list.

Falco will likely still move down a spot or two on the next tier list. All this stuff is great, but we aren't at the point where we can actually apply it in our matches, so we don't have tourney results to back up Falco's #3 spot. The fact that Falco's metagame is going to have to advance slower than other characters' leads people away from him and further slows him down. Falco will ultimately end up top 3-4 on the tier list, but he'll sit on the backburner for a while I think.

We need more testers who are dedicated to Falco. Guys like Kismet, Ozz, DEHF, etc. all smart guys who's talents I would much rather have applied to things like Falco's matchups or dealing with Falco's weaknesses.

Blahblahwutever · May 1, 2009

they posted it on the diddy boards. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

*shrug*

I think we all saw that coming a mile away.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

Oh, I noticed the same thing regarding you cannot move at all.

But in order for pikachu and TL to get splatted at the edge of final destination 100%, the final Dthrow has to put their percent to 41%-45% or so.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

It's easy on TLink, since you can just stand there Dthrowing until he Splats.

You're right about Pikachu. It's harder with him and you need to make smart use of pummels, stage positioning, and RBPGs to make sure that you end up on the edge on your last Dthrow.

I also want to point out that even if we could get Splatting to work 100% of the time, this would not work on Pika or Mario. Pika and Mario can avoid Splatting by DIing up and towards Falco.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

And like sixflags said about DDD, BPGing DDD so you slide to the edge really reduces the knockback of the Dthrow. Starting at 125% I was able to BPG DDD to slide to the edge of BF, Dthrow unstale 9% dthrow and connect a up-angled ftilt when buffered.

Talk about being able to make the counter against DDD worse and worse with each new thing we find. First there is the 0% to 100% combo possibly. Then add in any BPG > ftilts at the edge. DDD will be getting damaged racked up fast.

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Ok I just discovered something new!

You know how in that vid you posted, where falco was able to laser lock TL on Pictochat? Well you can do the same exact thing to DDD. It's much easier too since you can CG him for so long. You can CG him until near the ledge and then do the boost pivot grab and proceed with the standing chain grab. You do this until about 60 percent, then he splats.

Is Pictochat usually a banned stage? Because if not, I might be using it more for my counter pick... lol

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

It's typically a CP I think.

Hyro · May 1, 2009

shiiiiiit.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

Oh god.

Guys, don't start discovering new stuff. I have enough to test as it is. You're going to kill me.

I kid, I kid. And no, PictoChat is usually counter. It's where I always take Toon Links now.

I don't have access to my Wii right now, so can someone please describe to me how a chaingrab would look on DDD, starting at 0%, using this?

Is it possible to chaingrab to the edge, boost pivot, standing chaingrab, and finish with an Upsmash during the reduced knockback? Or, could Dthrow-> Jab be used in conjuction with the reduced knockback for a high probability for a laser lock?

God, I need my Wii back.

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Haha... if thats the case, Falco can do this to DDD, pika, and TL. Pretty easily too. With the laser lock, you can rack up to as much as 130 percent damage!

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

pure_awesome,

Its the same exact way you did it to TL. You just cg DDD to the edge, boost pivot grab, then get him up to around 50 percent. Then he will splat, and thats when you laser lock him.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

I...

You...

Wait, really?

That's so ****.

Go test that on like, every legal stage, on every ledge possible.

NAOW.

Get *****, DDD.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

I'll get on it with DDD pure.

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

I'm on it!

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

You guys are amazing and very nearly make up for me not having a Wii right now.

EDIT: I'm just throwing this out there, if that works and is inescapable (aside from the tech, obviously) on Green Greens, I may never stop laughing. DDD's Fortress, my ***.

Pew Pew!

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

lmao I don't think it is techable. I'm playing the computer right now, and he would tech it at all the other stages. But he can't tech it at Picto.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

I'm not having any luck with any stage other than Pictochat. Also, I think I found out why this happens.

If you Dthrow DDD or G&W at the very edge you'll noticed they tuck underneath the side of the edge of anystage a bit. My theory is that what happens is that when the knockback is given they are actually hitting the edgewall a bit and when that happens a character always recieves reduced knockback. And that is why this is working on pictochat really well and not other stages because DDD first hits the edge then hits that slope further reducing the knockback. I am thinking it won't work on DDD with the splat except pictochat. Any other stage you'll get reduced knockback to really highpercents as I said with ftilt up to 120% and no splat. But I think we can apply the reduced knockback.

Oh and my DDD CPu lv 9 in training mode did tech the dthrow when it reached 60%.

How did the dthrow to jab work again to the LL? I cannot get DDD to go into helpless frames when it hits the ground. It just resets DDD's knockback.

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Yes.. it is techable. I just found that out too. But I am sure its hard as hell to tech it.

So... So far we have

pikachu, TL, and DDD on the list

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

The list of unavoidables is Diddy, TL, and DDD (apparently).

Pikachu and Mario are doable, but can avoid it with DI. If you guys have separate controllers, you can try DIing with DDD to see what effects you get.

I've got to go to bed now, I have to swim in the morning. You guys are in the cool stage of testing: where you find something new and get to just mess around and see what you can break with it.
Just have some fun with it and see if you can get anything cool. Yoshi's Island also has slanted edges that might help with your reduced knockback thing, Crystal.
I'll check back tomorrow, so I'll address any questions then.

Good luck!

EDIT: When the hell did I become lead tester of the Falco boards?

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

I can test it out with you crystal if you want.

edit* nvm... I need to go to bed soon too.

pure_awesome · May 1, 2009

Test whatever you think merits testing. If you want to mess around with reduced knockback, go for it. If you want to see if you can find a way to force a laser lock, go for it. If you want to see whether or not DDD can escape somehow, go for it.

We're at the stage where any and all information is new and useful, so just have some fun bending the rules of the system as far as they'll go. We have plenty of time to do long, boring, methodical testing later.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

Results
Disclaimer: These are the results I have found comfirmed myself using CPU lv 9, on stop and control settings. No DI used.

Works:
1) Laser Lock Combo on DDD, Pikachu, TL on Pictochat. Splat > LL

2)High probablity LL for DDD theoritically any stage.

BPG (sliding to stage edge) > Dthrow > Jab > LL; (BPG starting at 60% minimum, if I understand the Jab to LL idea)

3)BPG > up-angled ftilt on DDD 125% is max that this combo will be guranteed on.

4)Splat > laser > Gatling combo. Achieves ~70% on Pikachu and TL. Works theoritically on any stage edge.

Working on:
Others that can be LL combed on pictochat.

Recoil · May 1, 2009

Oh sweet, after the (unfortunate) pika cg discovery, this certainly brings back some cheer in the Falco boards. Looking forward to further development!

sixflags11804 · May 1, 2009

Another thing to note... I'm not sure at exactly what percent, but pika can be laser locked at much higher percents than DDD. I mean on Pictochat.

Same as for Toon Link. I think you can even laser lock them still at 100 percent. All you need to do is BPG to the ledge and d-throw. Then start lasering away.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 1, 2009

I'm a bit disappointed that not more characters are affected by this. It seems to be done to only a select few. DDD, Pikachu and TL. At least now we have 2 stage counters to them. JJ and pictochat. But there is still the whole platform thing to test, this might work on parts of Norfair as they are partially considered platforms. And adding DI. I think I'll work on Norfair next. I've found no one else that will seem to work with pictochat. Although, DI might change that.

Weird chain grab glitch with TL and DDD

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