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New *neo* FALCON STAGE DISCUSSION (C-c-c-castle Siege)

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Falcon kind of sucks now, so we should all get super into counter picking stages and getting crazy familiar with them. As Falcon mains we need to know what to play on, when to play on it, and whom to play on it against. Also, we should all try to knee more.

Anyway, this is like a third or fourth or fifth attempt at a Falcon Stage discussion thread, and hopefully this time it'll stick. I'll start with neutrals first, and then we can move on to um... the ones that aren't considered neutral. I'll post summaries of what people said that include pros and cons, and have a section for who we should play against on the specific stages, if we should play there at all.

First up:

FINAL DESTINATION




PAGES: 1-2

PROS: Virtually none. Wall jump to knee, or any other aerial really. This isn't something that necessarily sells the stage though...

CONS: No platforms for Falcon to play with. It's a spammers paradise. Ledges will kill you if you don't know what you're doing.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Nay. The whole cast basically will have an even bigger upper hand on you here. The worst neutral stage for Falcon. Avoid and/or ban it.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1AxIgEM8rU&feature=related
Rebaz, doing his best with what's he's got. As you can see, the stage doesn't help at all, and really only aids Link.


YOSHI'S ISLAND (brawl)




Pages: 2-3


PROS: The moving stage in the middle is nice to have. Many character can't utilize it nearly as much as Falcon can. The wacky ground can mess up people's projectiles, and Falcon needs all the help he can get against spammers. The ghost platforms can help with recoveries, and if they jump up on your opponent, they can help set up some cool aerials. Pay attention to the walls of the stage. You can jump off of them! They make recovering easier, as well. Also, the following characters, in their stage discussion board have talked about this stage hurting them, or being a bad stage to play Falcon on: Bowser, G&W, DDD, Ness. Also... shy guys.

CONS: This is a neutral stage, and most of the silly things about it, help Falcon out, albeit only slightly. That silly moving platform in the middle can make things wonky, and you don't ever want to be caught up there. Beware of Ike, Wolf, ROB, and Snake here.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Play. The music is awesome. And there are shy guys.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d6Cwl5FhRY&feature=related
Close match, Silent Spectre. Good stuff, overall.



SMASHVILLE





PROS: The balloon! Slanted sides lead to Falcon Diving spikes against people who can't/ (forget to) tech. That's cool. Floating platform leads to uair and knee shenanigans, so track it and use it to your advantage. Stage is easy to grab. Yay!

CONS: Functions very much like Final D. Long flat platform. This makes approach pretty hard against some opponents. Watch out for Falcos, TLs, and ROBs here. Anybody that you wouldn't play on FD. Here won't be too much better, methinks.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Meh. I say play. I love this stage a lot. Hah. The music and background charm me to no end. "2 am" is the jam, man. Horizontal blast zone is close to the stage, apparently so keep that in mind. The floating platform and slanted stage ends should be your friends.


VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnnDOU76_Ac&feature=related



BATTLEFIELD



PROS: Platforms, platforms, platforms. They're pretty awesome for Falcon, and here they abound. Also, the curve of the edge allows for cool Falcon Dive spikes, if you know what you're doing. Uptilts, and upsmashes are nice here as well. Hmm... what else? Oh yeah, tech chase with knees, nairs and bairs, of course!

CONS: Watch out for nanner shenanigans and mine games on the platforms. Falco rules this area pretty hardcore, I believe as well. Anybody who is tall (see: Ike) should be taken on with caution. Just don't let the platforms be played against you.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Did you see the pros? Play! Falcon's best Neutral. Keep in mind... the background has four stages(?)

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4422AJJnwE&feature=related
There goes rebaz... battlefield-ing it up. Go rebaz go.


BRINSTAR



PROS: On the slopes and what not of the stage, you've got some cool sliding shenanigans if you fast fall an aerial into them. So, that's cool. The tendril thingies also extend your hit box of the knee. The tendrils and slopes also help against spammers such as T. Link, Link, and the space animals.

CONS: Nearly everybody uses this stage better then Falcon. Move are hard to autocancel because of the weird geography. Falcon is a big character, and that make making the higher platforms to escape the lava difficult. Uair works well here, but it's hard to utilize, since Falcon doesn't really move comfortably about the stage. Coming up from under with your upB becomes trickier here, because of the geography, so SDs might be occur more frequent;y then expected.

PLAY OR NAY(?): I'd say Nay. Especially against Lucas and Ness. This stage is supposed to be good against chain grabbers, but there will be better counter picks, I promise. Same thing for the spammers. This stage just does not have enough going for it. Also... don't take MK here. I have a feeling he'd kill you dead.

VIDEO: Pending...


NORFAIR



PROS: Lots of platforms. The fact that they ascend from the bottom one is nice, since Falcon has an awesome uair, and Falcon Dive is easy to land, on both an opponent and a ledge. A lot of people hate this stage, so if you're familiar with it, that's a plus. Also, there's a cool Falcon Kick glitch thing on the middle stages apparently. Look at Iwan's post on pg. 6 for details.

CONS: Lava, I guess. Also, there are some people who just perform here better then us. The list includes, but is not specific to: Marth, PT, R.O.B. and MK. Don't get caught in the blue capsule thing. Let your opponent go for that. Falcon is a big character, and that means the lava is harder to avoid.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Play. I'm not a huge fan of the stage, but it does benefit Falcon immensely if you know how to play it. Try throwing out a punch when the lava comes, if you're a stock ahead. You might be surprised at that you get.

VIDEO: P-p-p-pending.



PORT TOWN AERO DIVE


PROS: Home advantage!

CONS: Those cars, yo!

PLAY OR NAY(?): WTF?!?! WHY NOT!??

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NbA0R-cXr4&feature=related



YOSHI'S ISLAND (MELEE)



PROS: The weird geography seems to benefit Falcon. That pit of death in the middle is also really easy for us to get out of. You know who it's not easy for? Ness, Lucas, and DK. I could also see Bowser maybe dying down there. The edge with the pipe is easy to grab, and is a beneficial area to edge guard from.

CONS: The slope on the right side can make it hard to get a knee in, I think. Watch out for them chain grabs!

PLAY OF NAY(?): Play I say, if it's legal. Most people don't know anything about this stage, so being comfortable on it could be beneficial. Lusiris says to bring spammers here. The slopes and whatnot mean that you both with probably be in the air a lot. You know who's good in the air? Captain Falcon! HYES! You can very often tech chase a kill on that slope. Do it to it.

VIDEO:pending?


PICTOCHAT



PROS: Since Falcon does best at something I call fighting passive aggressively, this stage should work nice for him, considering it splits up the fight in many of the geographical changes. This can allow you to regroup, and decide your next plan of attack, or it's just a good opportunity to spam down taunt. Also, the blast zone for the bottom is low and close to the stage. Try spiking and raptor boosting.

CONS: The neutral segment of the stage smacks a lot of FD, which isn't fun for Falcon. Remember: Just approach with aerials and follow up with tilts. Work on getting you opponent into the air.

PLAY OR NAY(?): I'd say play. I love this stage an awful lot. Some many of the stage changes are advantageous to Falcon. Multi-platformed stuff, the blowing wind. Since Falcon has such a good grab game, the hazards can be used to your advantage quite frequently.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lizrhFj60Y8


LYLAT



PROS: The three platforms help you here. Uair, bair, nair, up B, upsmash, and utilt, to your hearts content. Get the people on the platforms, and punish them for staying there. (Just don't get caught yourself).

CONS: The back ground is distracting? I dunno. Unlike BF, there are a lot of characters who can use those three platforms as well as you can, or better, so watch out.

PLAY OR NAY(?): Play, but it's a tricky stage so be prepared. The tilting aspect isn't a good or bad thing. It's just there. Get a feel for how it moves, and how to best utilize the stages current position. The tilting will mess up your AC'd knees and dairs, so rely on uairs and bairs. But, as I said in the thread, Falcon does a good job at getting back despite the tilting. Others don't. Go for the gimp when they're off the stage, you'll have a good chance at getting back. Be careful with the raptor boost for recovery. Don't become a victim of the tilting. Various projectiles have diminished power here. See: Earthbound kids. Fireballs are even more annoying though. Be thankful you don't have to deal with Doc's pills here.

VIDEO: I'll find a good one for ya.


CASTLE SIEGE



PROS:

CONS:

PLAY OR NAY(?):

VIDEO:
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
961
Location
Laurel, Maryland
Huh? We should talk about stages guys so this thread can work >_<

I don't usually go to FD with Falcon, as he has no defense against camping, and no platforms to exploit. I wouldn't call it a bad stage, but it might be the least advantageous of the neutrals for him. This is more of a stage to avoid against certain characters (chaingrabbers and Diddy) imo, not really a stage Falcon would cp.
 

4L3X

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
10
I think that Smashville is a good stage for falcon. It is pretty close quarters and a down throw followed by a knee can kill your opponent easily.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
961
Location
Laurel, Maryland
The discussion is on FD now. Maybe it would be good to have that in the title. And I missed the green in the OP the first time, so

Pros: -not Mushroomy Kingdom

Cons: -chaingrabbers, spammers, and Diddy excel here

Play or Nay: Cool rhyme man, I'm going to say no, but it's not terrible if most characters cp here, if I'm not against one of the aforementioned bad characters to take here, I probably won't ban this stage. But I don't see a reason to pick it, as Falcon has no real advantages whatsoever here.
 

_Tiamat_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
140
Like teh noob said, avoid Final Destination against anyone who can projectile-camp. However, out of all the neutral stages, I think it's the best option against Snake and Ike (Snake is annoying with platforms)

if I'm wrong and Snake own Falcon on FD please tell me why so I can know what to watch out for.
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
826
Location
Leesburg, VA
Absolutely not for Final Destination.

Honestly, I strike this stage in tournament. I hate it to death, because the ledges are just STUPID. Not to mention, you're just asking to be camped on this stage. I'd much rather take my chances on Yoshi's, SV, DEFINITELY BF (awesome stage), etc....

No pros.

All cons.

^ Tru Fax
 

Thunder Of Zeus

*Rumble Rumble*
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Mt. Olympus
great vs ike. i find if you fthrow>chase (pivot) grab>fthrow>(pivot) grab>fthrow then once off the edge just run off and fair then jump-recover.
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Tucson, AZ
Camper's paradise for a neutral stage. Diddy and ice climbers **** on this stage. The ledge's can mess you up and there is nothing to work with and as Falcon we need as much mindgame material as possible and FD is horrible for that so I agree to striking this stage.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Yeah. Just to echo what a lot of people have said...
I hate FD. Um, I would definitely ban it against most characters, especially against campy spammers such as TL, Diddy Kong, and Snake.
I really do think that platforms are essential for Falcon. It helps set up aerials, and allows for easier approaches. The fact that FD has none, I'm frequently at a loss as to how to approach the opponent.

I'm leaning more towards the ledges being beneficial though, because I think it helps set up wall jumped knees.

I definitely vote no on playing here. I honestly can't think of a worse stage for Falcon. This depends on the match up of course, but... man, this stage hurts you.

Play other Falcons here I guess... cause it's crappy for them too. And umm... Ganons? I don't get killed by the stage, but I see it a lot of Ganons and Falcons kill themselves. But don't play anyone else.

Just... uh... don't play here.
 

F5Hazardousdoc

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
580
FD's bad. Good against say... Spacies with no falco in their names, and Ike, but against pretty much any one else its bad. I'd strike it going as falcon. Unless, your opponent is a non-MK swordsman, then I'd strike BF, since thats a hell of alot worse. XD

Edit: On second thought, strike against tink. Tink's too short to make BF worse than FD.
 

Psychoace

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,689
Location
Manliest city in Texas
Actually I find the only good thing about this stage are the ledges. Mindgaming material and the ability to possibly gimp. Don't get me wrong its still a ****ty counter pick so I don't advise going there. If you get stuck under the stage then you don't know how to w/rap sucka.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
5,575
Location
Europe
Final destination is a bad stage for falcon. A very bad stage.

But I love to walljump sweetknee chars who just try to grab the ledge.

Here, a vid to show you :pimp::
@1:16 and 1:48 in this vid: --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DjhFHdTmjk

Walljump (sweet)knee's/Uairs and maybe Nairs for edgeguarding, and walljump Bairs for attacking edgeguarders, is all FD has going for it for falcon.

So its a very bad stage for falcon.
 

LuLLo

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
765
Location
Netherlands, NB
I think it's a fun stage to play on (all flat yaaay...) in friendlies, but I still find it hard to play on.
As for competitive use, I almost never go here (make that never) since people can camp your *** (already stated) and your already bad approaches stay the same here, stages with platforms give you more variety in approach, thus FD is bad for you. The only pro about this stage is what Knee said, and that's pretty much it. If I had to strike out a stage, It'd be this one.
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Tucson, AZ
we should set up a rating system for the stages just do a ?/10 system. So for Final Destination I would give it a 3/10 . There is nothing going for us in this stage but the stage does not automatically **** us with all of the cast.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Laurel, Maryland
I think it depends though, like some characters you'd obviously want to ban it for, but like say if you're against MK or Kirby, I would ban Rainbow Cruise- I don't think ratings would really be able to apply to the whole cast. And I don't think FD is always the best ban, but that's just me.
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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Tucson, AZ
The ratings would really only be there to show what stages ,over a consensus, offer the most potential to Captain Falcon and would offer a quick easy way for Falcon beginners to browse through the stages discussed in this guide and see what stages people think are best for falcon. As for what stages to ban for what characters I think that should be discussed in the Match Up guide but this not my guide and I am just offering a suggestion so it's up to talkingbeatles to do what he wants.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
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Austin, TX
The ratings would really only be there to show what stages ,over a consensus, offer the most potential to Captain Falcon and would offer a quick easy way for Falcon beginners to browse through the stages discussed in this guide and see what stages people think are best for falcon. As for what stages to ban for what characters I think that should be discussed in the Match Up guide but this not my guide and I am just offering a suggestion so it's up to talkingbeatles to do what he wants.
I don't like the idea of a rating system, since we would have to define what that rating system is indicating in a very precise manner. Also, I find that when a rating is just slapped on something acting as a qualitative measure, it's often attempting to be unnecessarily accessible, and isn't based on anything sound or defined. That's just me though.

I think it would be useful as a side note to talk about who to play on a specific stage, but we wouldn't go in depth because, you're right, that does belong in a match up chart.

I'm thinking of moving the the discussion along and finishing up on Final D.
Any last words on this stage? I figure most of what needs to said, has been said.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Messages
961
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Laurel, Maryland
This stage isn't terrible, but I don't pick it often because the small-ish size doesn't really help gimping, and characters with bad recoveries don't have much of a problem here.

Pros:
-Mock Waveland
-You can knee the Shy Guys
-Spots to wall jump (but only on some of the sides of the stage, I never understood that)

Cons:
-Small stage, small horizontal boundaries (I think)
-Besides Mock Waveland, Falcon can't really exploit the relatively high platform very well and people can camp under it

I don't know, I end up playing on this stage a fair amount, but I don't really like it that much, although I don't feel that I'm terrible there. I think it's really a personal thing, the only character I wouldn't take here is Toon Link. He has a gimp involving his broken dsmash.
 

Skip2MaLoo

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
1,293
This stage isn't terrible, but I don't pick it often because the small-ish size doesn't really help gimping, and characters with bad recoveries don't have much of a problem here.

Pros:
-Mock Waveland
-You can knee the Shy Guys
-Spots to wall jump (but only on some of the sides of the stage, I never understood that)

Cons:
-Small stage, small horizontal boundaries (I think)
-Besides Mock Waveland, Falcon can't really exploit the relatively high platform very well and people can camp under it

I don't know, I end up playing on this stage a fair amount, but I don't really like it that much, although I don't feel that I'm terrible there. I think it's really a personal thing, the only character I wouldn't take here is Toon Link. He has a gimp involving his broken dsmash.
i literally have no problemo's against toonlinks because they are fail tier.

PS- if any toonlink mains see this, ill gladly 1on1. :)
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
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Georgia
i literally have no problemo's against toonlinks because they are fail tier.

PS- if any toonlink mains see this, ill gladly 1on1. :)
VietGs TL is broken.

he dtilt infinited me agaisnt a wall when i was playing sonic

;--;

i think i was forgetting to jump...
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Tucson, AZ
Yoshi's Island
Small stage with a platform that rotates on a center axis, it can provide some mindgame possibilities with the platform moving and providing some interesting openings. You can uptilt below the platform and hit opponents if I remember correctly. It's not the best stage because certain characters like Zelda and Ike can upsmash through it when you make a mistake and cause some trouble. The gimps are little hard to do and the stage can interfere and save someone just in time but its rare.
So overall not a bad stage and not a good stage its ok.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
An okay neutral stage. Much better then FD. I like the moving center platform. The unpredictability of it can cause for cool knee and uair setups. You shouldn't ever stay on the top platform of course. Get your opponent up there with running a and utilt, then uair and bair and knee away.

The walls can hurt or help you, depending on who your playing. I didn't know about the Fox shine lock. That's lame. So, I guess... don't play Fox on this stage. The walls make it pretty easy to sweet spot the edge, and pretty impossible to kill yourself. Also, it prevents characters like MK, Peach, Pit, and others from going under the stage.

The rising and falling platforms on the side always seem to help me out, and I've got a couple of knees off on people who found themselves on the things and were confused about what to do.

Also...
Shy guys are cool.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
961
Location
Laurel, Maryland
An okay neutral stage. Much better then FD. I like the moving center platform. The unpredictability of it can cause for cool knee and uair setups. You shouldn't ever stay on the top platform of course. Get your opponent up there with running a and utilt, then uair and bair and knee away.

The walls can hurt or help you, depending on who your playing. I didn't know about the Fox shine lock. That's lame. So, I guess... don't play Fox on this stage. The walls make it pretty easy to sweet spot the edge, and pretty impossible to kill yourself. Also, it prevents characters like MK, Peach, Pit, and others from going under the stage.

The rising and falling platforms on the side always seem to help me out, and I've got a couple of knees off on people who found themselves on the things and were confused about what to do.

Also...
Shy guys are cool.
The shine lock is more of a trivial thing, but yeah I guess Battlefield and Lylat would be better starters against Fox. Some other characters can mess you up with the wall though, like MK using nair. There's not really a lot of space to move away from an edgeguarder and try to recover low, so I don't like this stage against ROB and D3. And good Pits always ban this stage if it's a neutral.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
961
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Laurel, Maryland
What are you guys feelings on the rising and falling side platforms?
Well, it reminds me of another thing. Don't take Jigglypuff here, she can pretty much pound stall until one comes up if someone runs out of jumps somehow :laugh:

Otherwise though, I don't think they really affect things, just watch out for opponents' landing with lag from aerials they didn't complete (or your own, like if you go for an offstage knee, you can land before the hitbox comes out and with the move's lag).
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Well, it reminds me of another thing. Don't take Jigglypuff here, she can pretty much pound stall until one comes up if someone runs out of jumps somehow :laugh:

Otherwise though, I don't think they really affect things, just watch out for opponents' landing with lag from aerials they didn't complete (or your own, like if you go for an offstage knee, you can land before the hitbox comes out and with the move's lag).
I tend to agree with you. I'm just wondering if anyone else has an opinion they'd be willing to share.
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Tucson, AZ
What are you guys feelings on the rising and falling side platforms?
They provide a sense of unpredictability and can help you if you are there in time. Now that I think about it for some characters it would not help at all like MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Pit, Wario, ROB and anyone with a really great recovery because if they don't killed by the hit they will be able to come back from pretty much anywhere anyway so it would be a little bit of a tiny help to go against them. So they might help but for a CP stage it's ok but I would choose another stage. For a neutral stage its one of the better ones.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
They provide a sense of unpredictability and can help you if you are there in time. Now that I think about it for some characters it would not help at all like MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Pit, Wario, ROB and anyone with a really great recovery because if they don't killed by the hit they will be able to come back from pretty much anywhere anyway so it would be a little bit of a tiny help to go against them. So they might help but for a CP stage it's ok but I would choose another stage. For a neutral stage its one of the better ones.
Yeah. I think this stage would be good against Pit, but apparently Pit's ban it if it comes up. I agree with n00b though that Jigglypuff would kill on this stage. Also, I've fought R.O.B.s here, and they **** just like they would on any other stage. So, I don't think Falcon necessarily has an advantage.

I can't say anything about Kirby, Wario, or MK. I'm gonna do some research later on this stage, so we won't switch yet.

lusiris, your avatar is awesome.
 

lusiris

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Tucson, AZ
Yeah. I think this stage would be good against Pit, but apparently Pit's ban it if it comes up. I agree with n00b though that Jigglypuff would kill on this stage. Also, I've fought R.O.B.s here, and they **** just like they would on any other stage. So, I don't think Falcon necessarily has an advantage.

I can't say anything about Kirby, Wario, or MK. I'm gonna do some research later on this stage, so we won't switch yet.

lusiris, your avatar is awesome.
Ya falcon never has a advantage except maybe against a Ganon or Link on the right stage. I hate R.O.B.'s on here its pretty hard to approach them. Also ya Freakazoid is Awesome.
 
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