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Yoshi v. Samus [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

Shiri

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:yoshi: This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Samus matchup.

Matchup Summary:

bwett1 said:
For the Yoshi-Samus match-up, it is similar to a tower defense game and you are the enemy. You will face a barrage of attacks trying to get inside while Samus tries to repel you. Unfortunately, Samus has several tools at her disposal to do so that work extremely well. The basics of her defense will be homing missile and zair. Despite the simplicity of these two elements, Yoshi has a tremendously hard time getting within this defense. What most characters use as their way of avoiding the spam is powershielding and shielding in general. Yoshi, however, takes over two times the number of frames to drop his shield. Once Yoshi puts up his shield, Samus can put amazing pressure until you are forced to either spotdodge or roll which can be punished with charged shot. Therefore, we don't have the luxury of that option. Also, you can try throwing eggs and outspam her, but she has much more tools at her disposal, and depending on distance between the two of you, can punish the lag of your throw. ECE's are a better option, but that will give you 3 or 4 eggs at most, and she can dtilt or charged shot you in the process.

There are some strategies you can use to avoid the spam. Bair can swat away almost all his spam except for zair. Also, you can use approaching airdodges. Spotdodges do well against zair but not so much homing missiles. They slow down and can stop in place right where you spotdodge. In essence, Yoshi has an uphill battle to work with. All Samus has to do is keep her distance and constantly have homing missiles and zair out. If you try to bat away the missiles with bair, the zair will peg you. If you spotdodge the zair, the homing missiles will get you. Furthermore, it is easy for her to punish airdodge or spotdodge with charged shot. Because of all of this, you cannot avoid damage in this matchup. That being said, always approach and take the damage without looking back. The reason I say so is because the second you get within the zair, all that damage you just received will be given back. Yoshi's jab, grab, tilts and usmash work really well against her close range ground game. Keep an eye on her up-b because it can stop you in your tracks once you get close. Make sure to SDI out of it to avoid most of the damage.

For those that have never played this matchup, one thing you must always watch out for is dair. It is an EXTREMELY versatile move. Not only does it spike and kill early, but if you are on the ground when it hits, it can combo into a variety of different moves that give huge damage. I'm fairly positive that our uair outranges her dair if spaced properly but it is a risk.

As for stages, avoid long stages with platforms, especially PS1. Samus loves that stage. You want any short stage or uneven stage. Yoshi's Island is a good CP because it can mess up her zairs. Also, Delfino and Halberd work really well. The reason why is because now you have a very reliable approach against Samus. You can drop under the stage, throw 1 or 2 eggs to peck at their shield, and then using rising dairs, bairs, or uairs. It is really powerful.
 

auroreon

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UpB out of shield can screw you over big here so be very carefull attacking as she will shiled a lot, Jab the shield or Dair. If you jab the shield and she tries to UpB she will end up getting hit.
Big threat you should watch for in this matchup is the Zair which she will try to link into other stuff such as Zair to grab. Samus's Dtilt is very powerfull and has a ******** hitbox so watch for that.
I think Yoshi can outcamp samus, but I have never played a Samus that camps very well. Pivot grab is good as usual but unfotuantly we can't CG samus because she is too floaty =(, Samus is really vunerable when she is above you though (Uair kills at around 115%) so pivot grab is good for that, be wary of her dair spike though as it is far too easy to pull off.
My approach to this matchup is to Bair through her projectile spam and just keep in her face as much as possible (trust me Bair is your best friend here as it eats all her projectiles), there is little she can do about jabs so use them, DownB kills pretty early. Most of her attacks are quick and can be spotdodged and punished with Dsmash.
I personally don't have much trouble with this matchup, but I've heard that some Yoshis do.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Really good Sami can give Yoshi troubles at mid-range and offstage.

Anything less than a stellar Samus, however, will mean a usually easy victory for Yoshi simply because he can abuse his back air and down tilt to great effect onstage and can maneuver around most offstage edgeguards from less than amazing players since we have to learn how to get around everyone else's BS anyway. Trouble moves from Samus in general include forward tilt, down tilt, Up+B, back air (surprisingly enough), and down air offstage. Onstage it can be troublesome, but setups into it can be fairly obvious after some time, so just be careful with your spotdodging, as that can incidentally put you in the way of a down air.

Also, watch out for Samus pivot grab; it's better than people say it is and is another tool she can use to force Yoshi into mid-range, where she fights him best.
 

VSC.D-Torr

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I don't have any true knowledge of the matchup because I haven't really played good Samuses (or Sami). Hopefully, I'll be able to play against ESAM's Samus at Florida Gaming May 30th if he goes.
 

Xyro77

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Furbs and bwett play me MANY MANY time sin tourney. Ask them, they will know. Its in samus favor
 

zachisasian

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i'm not totally sure on this, since it was wi fi, but when a samus used dair on me onstage i beat it with yoshi's u tilt a few times.
 

.Marik

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Furbs and bwett play me MANY MANY time sin tourney. Ask them, they will know. Its in samus favor
There's no way. With you, maybe it's ditto. 5:5. Anybody else? Don't think so.

I found that Bair is works fairly well against Samus. ETS a lot, and avoid Zair whenever possible.

I will give it to you though, Samus dittos are too much fun.
 

Poltergust

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...I find it hard to believe. In every single game I've played against Samus, I never felt like I was in a disadvantaged position, whether it be off-stage, far-range, mid-range, or close-range. I can't find any reason for it to be in Samus' advantage at all. It's either in Yoshi's advantage, or I'm missing something here.

...Xyro, come to Florida Gaming. :chuckle:
 

Metatitan

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...I find it hard to believe. In every single game I've played against Samus, I never felt like I was in a disadvantaged position, whether it be off-stage, far-range, mid-range, or close-range. I can't find any reason for it to be in Samus' advantage at all. It's either in Yoshi's advantage, or I'm missing something here.

...Xyro, come to Florida Gaming. :chuckle:
play a good samus plz. there are so few good samus mains unfortunately xD. samus ***** our ****. hard. really really really hard. we have no answer to zair. NO ANSWER TO IT. not even a pivot grab (lol as if anyone believed that would work). charged shot ***** our spotdodge and gives samus a free kill. our predictability when recovering is like sex to samus, she loves it so much and its so ez to punish us. homing missiles **** out spotdodges. samus is fatter than we are and even if u get in ur face she has ways of getting out of ur comboes. imma wait for bwett to do a more accurate summary but id say 65:35 samus.
 

Poltergust

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OK, let me get one thing straight. This may seem provincial, but until I play a good Samus that can beat me then I will find it impossible for Samus to have the advantage. Seriously, no discussion in this thread can change my opinion until I fight a good Samus, because as of right now I believe Yoshi to have a 60:40 advantage over her.

That said, I'll continue to discuss the match-up, but as of right now I wholeheartedly disagree with the ratio of 65:35 Samus. That's worse than Snake and Zelda, which are two characters I have MUCH more difficulty with. The way my mind is right now, I cannot even fathom that ratio.

Now, on the topic of KOing, it's obvious Yoshi can KO Samus that Samus can KO Yoshi (that's true for every match-up of hers, though). Her most reliable kill moves would be d-tilt (kills at 155%, I think), u-tilt (around 165%), and b-air (a bit slow, but it is her strongest move and kills around... 130% sweet-spotted?). Her f-smash should never hit if Yoshi spaces himself properly. And I never had any problems avoiding her fully-charged Charge Shot (don't spot-dodge it). D-air may work, but Yoshi can survive to surprising percents from the spike (he can with most other characters, too).

Now, Yoshi's best kill moves would be u-air, Yoshi Bomb (pretty much all of Samus' ground moves are punishable with a Yoshi Bomb), and up-smash. D-air may also work if Samus is put into a bad recovering situation, but edge-guarding her is dangerous due to her d-air, so I'd only edge-guard her when she is most vulnerable. F-smash is slow, but can really devastate Samus when used correctly.
 

Metatitan

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OK, let me get one thing straight. This may seem provincial, but until I play a good Samus that can beat me then I will find it impossible for Samus to have the advantage. Seriously, no discussion in this thread can change my opinion until I fight a good Samus, because as of right now I believe Yoshi to have a 60:40 advantage over her.

That said, I'll continue to discuss the match-up, but as of right now I wholeheartedly disagree with the ratio of 65:35 Samus. That's worse than Snake and Zelda, which are two characters I have MUCH more difficulty with. The way my mind is right now, I cannot even fathom that ratio.

Now, on the topic of KOing, it's obvious Yoshi can KO Samus that Samus can KO Yoshi (that's true for every match-up of hers, though). Her most reliable kill moves would be d-tilt (kills at 155%, I think), u-tilt (around 165%), and b-air (a bit slow, but it is her strongest move and kills around... 130% sweet-spotted?). Her f-smash should never hit if Yoshi spaces himself properly. And I never had any problems avoiding her fully-charged Charge Shot (don't spot-dodge it). D-air may work, but Yoshi can survive to surprising percents from the spike (he can with most other characters, too).

Now, Yoshi's best kill moves would be u-air, Yoshi Bomb (pretty much all of Samus' ground moves are punishable with a Yoshi Bomb), and up-smash. D-air may also work if Samus is put into a bad recovering situation, but edge-guarding her is dangerous due to her d-air, so I'd only edge-guard her when she is most vulnerable. F-smash is slow, but can really devastate Samus when used correctly.
i think u dont realize that samus doesnt just shoot charged shots directly into u, she waits for u to spotdodge one attack and then punishes u. she wracks up damage faster than us, ill repeat again, WE HAVE NO ANSWER TO ZAIR. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. when we dont have an answer to a move and its abused then ur screwed. due to ur lack of experience in the matchup, dont be so ignorant about another char's potential
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I don't have too much else to contribute.

But I will agree with Poltergust--I say that if anybody puts this match as worse than Zelda, they officially do not know what they are talking about.

Real talk. No exceptions.
 

Metatitan

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:yoshi: I don't have too much else to contribute.

But I will agree with Poltergust--I say that if anybody puts this match as worse than Zelda, they officially do not know what they are talking about.

Real talk. No exceptions.
bwett sees it as 65:35. play a real samus and ull realize how hard she ***** us
that goes for u too polt. u even said uve never played a good samus. so stay the hell away from the samus discussion until u have, saying its 60:40 yoshi when u have no knowledge of the matchup is like a jiggs main saying 60:40 jiggs against mk cuz theyve never played the matchup.
 

Poltergust

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bwett sees it as 65:35. play a real samus and ull realize how hard she ***** us
that goes for u too polt. u even said uve never played a good samus. so stay the hell away from the samus discussion until u have, saying its 60:40 yoshi when u have no knowledge of the matchup is like a jiggs main saying 60:40 jiggs against mk cuz theyve never played the matchup.
There's no need to get aggressive here. I'm just stating what I know. Other than the Charge Shot, is there anything else wrong with what I said?

And yes I have, D-Torr. However, his Samus did not leave me any notable impression of the match-up (even though he did beat me). I need to play against a good Samus main if my mind is to be changed.
 

Metatitan

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There's no need to get aggressive here. I'm just stating what I know. Other than the Charge Shot, is there anything else wrong with what I said?

And yes I have, D-Torr. However, his Samus did not leave me any notable impression of the match-up (even though he did beat me). I need to play against a good Samus main if my mind is to be changed.
if u have not played a good samus main, do not say what u assume the matchup to be. bwett is not only a better yoshi than u, he has much more experience in the matchup AND against a better (top 3) samus main at that. hes complained a lot to us about samus in the chat and sees it as 65:35.
 

Poltergust

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I'm starting to feel that this thread is degenerating into an attack on me. ._.

Look, I'm willing to play against a good Samus. I really want to know this match-up. However, as of right now based on my current experience with Samus I still say it's in Yoshi's advantage. If I can play against a good Samus then that may change but until then I'm pretty much set in that ratio. =/
 

Metatitan

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I'm starting to feel that this thread is degenerating into an attack on me. ._.

Look, I'm willing to play against a good Samus. I really want to know this match-up. However, as of right now based on my current experience with Samus I still say it's in Yoshi's advantage. If I can play against a good Samus then that may change but until then I'm pretty much set in that ratio. =/
play samus first, hold opinions later. in all honesty, u cant hold an opinion on what u expect a char matchup to be. thats like how so many yoshies thought yoshi absolutely ***** jiggs **** until i proved them wrong. now nobody is willing to deny its even. keep an open mind to what samus can do, a good one is truly frightening
 

bigman40

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How bout yall two *****es stop worrying bout a motha****in ratio and discuss about the strategies to use to fight the motha****in matchup?
 

Poltergust

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Fine then. Since I apparently have no place in discussing this match-up I'll just stop talking about it. I still hold my opinion, though.

*coughxyrocometofloridagamingcough*
 
D

Deleted member

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Yoshi ***** samus.

Get at me Xyro.
Im 2-0 with samus in tourny, none of xyro calibur, and i probably will never play a top level one.

Id love to get some exp in it tho.
 

auroreon

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Ok, Polt, everyone is interested in your input and its good that you are contributing to the discussion. Just because we don't all agree with you doesn't mean you should just quit posting. As I think even you acknowledge, you do not have satisfactory knowledge of this matchup because you haven't played a good samus.
Metatitan, you are basing your knowledge of this matchup on experience against ONE person. What you are not taking into account is that Xyro is an extremely good Samus. You cannot base a matchup against one person, maybe Xyro is just a BETTER player (no offence to bwett/furbs/anyone else). Or maybe Xyro just knows how to fight Yoshi much better than anyone has adapted to Samus.
Okay, now something you are all overlooking not just in this matchup but in playing this game at all... SHAD. I believe that you all sorely underestimate SHAD. Its longer than a spotdodge and puts you in the air, try replacing some of your spotdodges with SHAD and see how it works out for you.
Im not going to say a ratio because I don't think any of us have enough experience to decide on one, but I will say that I doubt its a 65:35.
We should all try to get some experience playing good Samus's and come back with the results, we could all do with learning this matchup a bit better.
 

Furbs

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if i ever meet xyro again in bracket im going dedede, bwett has done this before and me and bwett are both top yoshi's playing a top samus (possibly the best TUDOR IS TRASH)

Ranged

heres the facts, samus spams the hell out of yoshi at range, with charge shots and smart missles and basically samus can punish us incredibly hard if we shield. if we roll charge shot, if we spot dodge charge shot, if we shield she'll pressure us.

also good luck throwing an egg, saums's projectiles are much faster and charge shot can hit us on the ledge if we throw ece's

so distanced we're at a disadvantage

approaching:

ok, so projectile spam shuts down our ground approach

lets try the air, oh wait, Zair shuts down all our approaches

now lets say she doesnt zair, she can just up-b out of shield (which sucks us in) and outprioritize us.

basically we can't approach her AND we have to with her spam

her dair

is a beast, and is so easy to land and has such amazing priority, and such a large hitbox, nothing can beat it, it has amazing hitstun (so that we can get fsmashed) and beats u-air

in this matchup you are FORCED to approach a character you have no feasible way of approaching. A charcater that can punish and combo you for approaching, and has many reliable setups to kill if she catches you in a bad stop. there is not one thing about this matchup we can really abuse to put in our favor. making this one of yoshi's hardest matchups, if not his absolute hardest.

fortunately most samus players are noobs who don't understand how important zair, and up-b out of shield and spam are.

if we get up close we're fine, but the problem is we really can't

also dsmash can kill us too and she can combo us like crazy (uair has no lag wtf!?)

You cannot base a matchup against one person, maybe Xyro is just a BETTER player (no offence to bwett/furbs/anyone else). Or maybe Xyro just knows how to fight Yoshi much better than anyone has adapted to Samus.


also samus players i HAVE played are

Tudor
Xyro
N00b (bernard)
and Hive

Also socks ill play you my samus v your yoshi when i go to san diego! :)
 

Slice~

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Don´t forget L!te´s Samus (Critical Touch)
maybe he isn´t that famous, but i´m sure that he´s one of the top samis

and yes, Zair ***** definitely
in the matches against L!te, i´d always try to make a full jump to approach with bair, because he always tries to sh+ zair
egg throw is also very useful

pay attention to her dair, especially during your recovery
 

Furbs

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the thing is you shouldn't be able to successfully approach a good samus with bair sense they can just up-b out of shield

:/
 

Bwett

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I'd like to note that if we are able to get within Samus's space, we can do major damage, but as Furb's commented (btw, good analysis - I'd just like to comment that if we try to approach from above, her uair beats our dair), a good samus can space us to the point that the second we do get in, we've already taken massive damage and will probably get killed pretty fast because of it. And yes, upb OoS ***** hard.

I would also like to note that if we are on a stage where you can come from under it, I consider the matchup near even because we now have a pretty reliable approach (Halberd and Delphino).
 

Airborne

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jesus christ, more of a shutdown than against marf... -.- thank god i haven't seen ANY samuses in the midwest.... wait, that's a bad thing; i don't get any experience in the match-up... -.- ****
well, i don't even know how to take the ***** down, seeing as that she has everything going against us.... gah....
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Okay, any posts in here from now on will be explicitly about how to play this matchup.

I can see where this is going from a mile away, and I don't even have my glasses on.
 

JOE!

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WE HAVE NO ANSWER TO ZAIR. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
how about: Dont get hit by it?

:p

anywho, instead of full out approaching to hit Samus with bair, jump back -> bair while going forward (retreating from samus) to bait an UpB? then abuse he helpless state?
 

EdreesesPieces

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Did you guys know if you Smash DI samus' up B to the right well well the last hit won't really send you very far and you can punish it as you land? Try it more =p
 

Cliche-Guevara

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The only reliable way to approacha good samus is from under the stage (Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar to an extent...) aside from that, Just be super patient and wait for samus to mess up.

Lots of samus will try for the zair to grab if you can spotdodge the grab you can punish that thing with any move you want.

When you get that opening you need to stay on top of her, once she gets you out of the bubble it will be a nightmare waiting to get back in again.
 

bigman40

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Did you guys know if you Smash DI samus' up B to the right well well the last hit won't really send you very far and you can punish it as you land? Try it more =p
I realized that when my friend tried it on me the first time lol. I had did it incredibly easy with Pika, but with Yoshi I never tried it.
 

.Marik

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There is no way Samus ***** Yoshi.

You guys are taking your analysis from the -best- Samus main in the U.S.A. That's like saying "Mario ***** Yoshi because I played Boss."

True, she has insane projectile options that punish, and a nasty Zair. Yes, OoS UpB *****, but Samus has no KO power whasoever, and eggs and tilts **** her. ETS WILL help us out in this matchup.
 
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