Revising "Counterpicking Made Easy"

Some of you may remember my little thread in the Stage Discussion board, Counterpicking Made Easy, but I believe it's gotten a bit out of date. I recently removed all the newly banned stages, but I glance it over, and I see things like one of Diddy's worst stages being Norfair...

I contemplated making posts in each of the character boards, but I figured it'd be easier to simply ask the general Tactical discussion to catch anything glaring. Mind taking a look guys?

Here's the full post.

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Seeing the Stage Advantages for Characters Chart and seeing its current unreadability - the thought came that there could always be something simpler. Knowing your enemy and how they will react to their environment could be the deciding factor in whether victory is a sure thing or something almost unobtainable. Below, a working list of all the characters in Brawl and their general consensus on what are their 3 best and 3 worst stages. The easy way to counterpick!

Please help contribute to the empty spaces or correct existing ones.

Bowser
Best: Norfair, Battlefield, Castle Siege
Worst: Jungle Japes, Brinstar

Captain Falcon
Best: Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 1, Norfair
Worst: Final Destination, Smashville, Jungle Japes

Diddy Kong
Best: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville
Worst: Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise

Donkey Kong
Best: Brinstar, Jungle Japes
Worst: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise

Falco
Best: Jungle Japes, Final Destination
Worst: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion

Fox
Best: Smashville, Final Destination
Worst: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise, Luigi's Mansion

Game & Watch
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens
Worst: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Luigi's Mansion

Ganondorf
Best: Pirate Ship, Norfair, Brinstar
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Port Town Aero Drive

Ice Climbers
Best: Final Destination, Smashville, Pictochat
Worst: Rainbow Cruise

Ike
Best: Green Greens, Pirate Ship
Worst: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Luigi's Mansion

Jigglypuff
Best: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Smashville
Worst: Battlefield

King Dedede
Best: Green Greens, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Jungle Japes, Brinstar, Norfair

Kirby
Best: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1
Worst: Pirate Ship, Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Smashville
Worst: Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes

Lucario
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Green Greens, Rainbow Cruise

Lucas
Best: Norfair, Brinstar, Luigi's Mansion
Worst: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island

Luigi
Best: Brinstar, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Final Destination, Jungle Japes

Mario
Best: Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Battlefield
Worst: Jungle Japes, Pirate Ship

Marth
Best: Battlefield, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Brinstar, Jungle Japes

Meta Knight
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Yoshi's Island (Melee), Green Greens, Final Destination

Ness
Best: Delfino Plaza, Brinstar, Pirate Ship
Worst: Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Olimar
Best: Luigi's Mansion, Norfair
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon

Peach
Best: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar
Worst:

Pikachu
Best: Norfair, Final Destination
Worst: Luigi's Mansion

Pit
Best: Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Worst: Pokemon Stadium 1

Pokémon Trainer
Best: Norfair, Castle Siege
Worst: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise

Squirtle
Best: Battlefield, Norfair, Delfino Plaza
Worst: Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium 2, Pictochat

Ivysaur
Best: Norfair, Green Greens
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Port Town Aero Drive

Charizard
Best: Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1, Castle Siege
Worst: Norfair, Battlefield, Final Destination

R.O.B.
Best: Frigate Orpheon, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes
Worst: Distant Planet, Norfair, Brinstar

Samus
Best: Battlefield, Final Destination
Worst: Jungle Japes, Yoshi's Island

:shiek: Sheik
Best: Battlefield, Halberd
Worst: Jungle Japes

Snake
Best: Norfair, Halberd, Smashville
Worst: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise

Sonic
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island
Worst: Brinstar

Toon Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Pirate Ship
Worst: Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion

Wario
Best: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon
Worst: Final Destination

Wolf
Best: Smashville, Yoshi's Island
Worst: Lylat Cruise

Yoshi
Best: Halberd, Final Destination, Rainbow Cruise
Worst: Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Frigate Orpheon

Zelda
Best: Smashville, Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion
Worst: Lylat Cruise, Delfino Plaza, Halberd

Zero Suit Samus
Best: Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise, Battlefield,
Worst: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Castle Siege

Keep in mind this is just a general outlook on how characters do on specific stages - not to mention a democratic one. To truly excel in choosing the correct counterpick against any character or player look at things personally and carefully; don't blindly follow a list.

I'll only list stages Counter-Banned and up.
Here's the official list of legal stages: SBR Recommended Rule List v2.0: Brawl.

I also recommend watching this: The Art of Counterpicking Stages.

I feel that Yoshi's Island is far worse for Jigglypuff, because at least on Battlefield you can get an underneath stage gimp. Yoshi's Island prevents gimps. All the air obstacles on Pictochat can also prove a problem, sometimes forcing Jiggs to play on the ground where she is weakest. Pirate ship also eliminates gimps.

And for DDD, Pirate ship is much worse than Jungle Japes for us. Pirate ship has spots that mess up the chain grab, platforms that hurt more than help, changes that, while they lead to walls, no one follows us on, and simply waits till we get back and goes for a gimp. This also brings me to gimping. DDD turns from gimper to gimped on Pirate Ship.

Fox does bad at Delfino? I'd think the low ceiling would make it a great level.

But I'm not really a Fox main :x so I'm probably not looking at the cons.

(However I'd assume he benefits similiar to how Falco does, without the spiking)

G&W

Best:
Add Battlefield

Worst:
Remove Luigi's Mansion. I don't see why this would be a "WORST" for G&W. I like it.
Remove Yoshi Island (Brawl). Again, I don't see why this is so bad for G&W. I won a few important matches at APEX using this stage.
For G&W it's heavily dependent on the matchup. Usually I, personally, try to avoid neutrals.

EDIT: In response to Hylian's post. I think Japes is a great stage for G&W. Maybe for others its not the best, but imo it's not the worst.

If DDD had four, they'd be the three above plus Pirate Ship.

Since he doesn't, I'd personally say keep Japes over PS. Water, high ceiling, weird spurts of immobility due to ledgesnapping placement, or whatever you wanna call it...plus from what I've seen Japes is much more common a counter than PS.

Brinstar doesn't seem that bad for us but honestly I could be wrong, never really played there with DDD...I imagine it'd be a lot like Norfair though.

Halberd is really good for DDD too in my opinion, but it's hard to argue when the top three stages for him all include either a walk-off or a wall.

Fox does pretty **** good at Delfino, and Luigi's mansion is VERY situational, dependent on the matchup. Fox boards will get back to you very soon.

For Falco, I say that Norfair and Luigi's Mansion can be argued or not to really be his worst or not. Rainbow Cruise is certainly Falco's worst stage.

Luigi's Mansion is big enough that you can certainly do a small amount of stalling for just enough time to break the pillars on the house creating a flatter space for Falco to camp on. Plus, falco has found a few tricks on that stage that allow him to abuse the LL. The above average ceiling certainly causes problems killing since Upsmash is the main source of the killing power that Falco has. It's one of Falco's counters for a stage I would say, but it's not exactly his worst.

Norfair despite the uneven levels supports characters with a relatively good Airgame. The platforms are still larger enough that falco can CG with Boost Pivot Grabs. Falco does have some disadvantages with the recovery being helped and diminished at times. Lasers and camping is limited, but can still be done.

Brinstar, I think, would be falco's second worst after Rainbow Cruise. The stage gives some advantages and disadvantages to falco, but mostly negative I would say. For one, the platforms are small and hang out over the ledge, the terrain is uneven. Falco's laser game is next to useless in such a close environment. CG is pretty not existant too because the uneven terrain can help people get out of the CG early. And since the stage is so small it can support either falco or the opposition for relative ease in juggling. Add in the fact that the sides blast zones are so small and lava can add free damage on Falco. Falco is 3rd lightest, iirc, so he won't be lasting very long in a stock.

The best stages is pretty accurate. Another one I heard that was bad for Falco was frigate orpheon, but I don't really see it except for the no ledge on the right side at the beginning of the stage. That really messes up with Falco's Recovery.

Overall, FD, JJ his best. Rainbow Cruise his definite worst stage. Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar are sort of depended upon who falco his facing in the match up.

Man I hate Castle Siege so much as TL its not even funny.

Yoshi's Island brawl is terrible for Pit, he can't glide under the stage so you have a chance of gimping his WoI and the shyguys get in the way of his arrows.

__crystal____ said:

Falco is 3rd lightest, iirc, so he won't be lasting very long in a stock.

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No that's G&W.
Falco is the 10th lightest.
Your point still stands though.

I think you should add Castle Siege to Samus' worst. She has no projectile game on that stage. You could also add Smashville and Norfair to Sheik's best, but that might just be myself that I'm thinking of.

Jungle Japes is not a bad stage for sheik as I use it as a counter pick fairly often with her.

We've decided recently on the Bowser Boards that Norfair is a terrible CP for Bowser. Not because Bowser doesn't do well there, Norfair is one of his best, it's just that if you CP Norfair the opponent can CP Meta Knight for an easy win. And that's just one character that takes better advantage of it, I also know of Jiggypuff, Snake, and ZSS and Olimar would probably beat Bowser there too.

Wario is practically untouchable on brinstar, and the small size means it even easier to get kills with him. IMO Brinstar is too good for Wario.

ICs should have Frigate Orpheon as a good stage. It's the smallest (pre flipping) stage in the game, making it easier to get grabs, and the lack of an edge doesn't really hurt ICs, but makes anyone with a recovery that needs to grab the ledge (Marth jumps to mind) just land into infinite Grabs lag. It really doesn't have anything to hose them either.

Also, this is a great idea. This reference guide is really good for characters like GaW and Wario who often just pick their opponents worst stages because they don't really have bad ones.

Tarmogoyf said:

ICs should have Frigate Orpheon as a good stage. It's the smallest (pre flipping) stage in the game,

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Really? I thought Castle Siege was smaller (prechange and after it rolls back around to the first one).

Awesome thread Meno =P

Will I be seeing you this Saturday at C3?!?! :D

Yesh yesh. I'll be there bringing my Peachiness.

In large and voluptuous amounts.

JayDeth said:

Really? I thought Castle Siege was smaller (prechange and after it rolls back around to the first one).

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Frigate as an overall. Seige has that specific point.

whoever said norfair is best bess level is sadly mistaken. it goes like this: Final Destination, Smashville, Halberd

How is Brinstar Bowser's worst level? I consider it to be one of my best... Fortress rules when you're confined to the top platform, you can easily klaw jump all over the place, acid doesn't hurt you as much as it does others, there's nowhere for campers to run, I could go on.

I think the lava in norfair outweighs the advantages of having more than one ledge for ivysuar, he is weak to fire type moves and has a significant increase in knockback to them, also when he grabs the ledge he first falls down quickly then pulls up so if the ground lava is increased he is likely to get hit by it when he recovers and break his tether.

sniperworm said:

As far as what Zelda generally doesn't like...

1) Yoshi's Island
2) Stages that make her finicky recovery more difficult (difficult to sweetspot edges (Lylat Cruise, etc.) or fall through stages (Halberd - the transitioning part, etc.)).
3) Yoshi's Island...
4) Stages with lots of movement (Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise)
5) Yoshi's Island, lol

Zelda generally likes...
1) Luigi's Mansion
2) Stages with abusable platforms (Battlefield - she can Usmash through lower platforms and platforms increase chances of landing her powerful aerials)
3) Stages with close blast zones since her powerful moves will kill even earlier (especially ones with low ceilings (since her dreaded Usmash will kill even better)
4) Stages where opponent's can't camp her to death

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Got this from the Mario counterpicks stage topic. Guess you should add Yoshi's Island to her worst.

Wow, this thread is great. Thanks for all the useful info. I needed this more than you know, I fail at CPing.

I'll use this guide as a guideline until I understand CP to the point where I know where to take my opponent should they be better at one of my best CP than me.

Hylian said:

I personally think Jungle Japes is GW's worst stage.

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Wouldn't the huge ceiling give bucket-braking that much more power?

Tristan_win said:

Jungle Japes is not a bad stage for sheik as I use it as a counter pick fairly often with her.

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I don't understand this though. Wouldn't the ceiling kill her usmash? And the river kill her recovery? I don't see Jungle Japes as anything but a bad stage for her.

Jungle Japes is odd for lots of characters.

It hampers vertical kills and vertical recoveries - while rewarding horizontal kills and horizontal recoveries.