The New Jigglypuff Stage Discussion [Week 2 ~ Brinstar]

Week 1 - Pictochat


Rating:

Pros: "Large top blastzone protects against early upwards deaths, short side blastzones for easier kills"
Cons: "Almost no area below the stage, going off stage is severely restricted because of it. Side blastzones can also cause you early deaths. Random percents and kos due to the level"
Counterpick Against:
Ban Against:

Summary: "I do not like this level for Jiggs. At all. If this level gets CPed on me, I switch characters. The random percent you might take from the hazards matter way more for us, we have to constantly play to keep our percentage as LOW as possible, we can't afford a few stray % points. Watch out for Kirby on this level, I play against two really good Kirby's on a frequent basis, and one of them has so many tricks on this level it's mind blowing. Plus his Fsmash will kill us EARLY. Pick this level against Fox, the random platforms that spawn will limit his movement severely, and he generally kills upwards, take that advantage away from him." - airgemini


Week 2 - Brinstar


Rating:

Pros: The small dimensions of the stage improves Jigglypuff's offstage game as well as strengthening many of her kill moves (namely Rest). The acid may be used to protect yourself from an offstage Rest as well as offering a costly 7th jump in case you use up your jumps when attempting an offstage gimp or kill. The vegetation on the stage offers a way to de-stale your moves, which helps for when the opponent gets in kill range. The permeable bottom floor allows for flexibility when recovering, and also the ability to attack while underneath the stage (sharking).

Cons: The small dimensions works against us as well, and Jigglypuff is susceptible to even earlier deaths. Rollout's usefulness is also limited due to the vegetation joining the stage halves together. Poor sharking can also lead to on-stage spikes from the opponent.

Counterpick Against:

Ban Against:

Summary: This stage is one of Jigglypuff's bread and butter stages and should be treated as such. High risk/high reward comes into play here.



Week 3 - Castle Siege


Current discussion.

The New Jigglypuff Stage Discussion (Under "Noob" Management)


*Credit to MenoUnderwater for making that awesome image.


This thread is the Noob and Improved Jigglypuff Stage Discussion. The purpose of this thread is to discuss various stages and assess how effectively Jigglypuff can fight/get screwed over on said stage. The word "Week" is relative to the amount of discussion the current stage receives; a hated stage may be breezed through while a favored stage may take up the allotted week. Following this set format while posting isn't necessary, but it certainly helps.


Post Format

• Rating: What would you rate the current stage as?
• Pros: What are our advantages of this stage?
• Cons: What are our disadvantages on this stage?
• Counterpick Against: What characters would you recommend counter picking this stage for?
• Ban Against: What characters should we ban this stage against?
• Summary: Your closing statement regarding the stage.

If you feel as if something HUGE was missed during a previous stage discussion or if you find out something new about a previous stage, don't hesitate to inform us.


Archive of Discussions:

Week 1 - Pictochat
Week 2 - Brinstar
Week 3 - Castle Siege

The New Jigglypuff Stage Discussion (Under "Noob" Management)


*Credit to MenoUnderwater for making that awesome image.


This thread is the Noob and Improved Jigglypuff Stage Discussion. The purpose of this thread is to discuss various stages and assess how effectively Jigglypuff can fight/get screwed over on said stage. The word "Week" is relative to the amount of discussion the current stage receives; a hated stage may be breezed through while a favored stage may take up the allotted week. Following this set format while posting isn't necessary, but it certainly helps.


Post Format

• Rating: What would you rate the current stage as?
• Pros: What are our advantages of this stage?
• Cons: What are our disadvantages on this stage?
• Counterpick Against: What characters would you recommend counter picking this stage for?
• Ban Against: What characters should we ban this stage against?
• Summary: Your closing statement regarding the stage.

If you feel as if something HUGE was missed during a previous stage discussion or if you find out something new about a previous stage, don't hesitate to inform us.


Archive of Discussions:

Week 1 - Pictochat
Week 2 - Brinstar
Week 3 - Castle Siege

Week 1 - Pictochat


Rating:

Pros: "Large top blastzone protects against early upwards deaths, short side blastzones for easier kills"
Cons: "Almost no area below the stage, going off stage is severely restricted because of it. Side blastzones can also cause you early deaths. Random percents and kos due to the level"
Counterpick Against:
Ban Against:

Summary: "I do not like this level for Jiggs. At all. If this level gets CPed on me, I switch characters. The random percent you might take from the hazards matter way more for us, we have to constantly play to keep our percentage as LOW as possible, we can't afford a few stray % points. Watch out for Kirby on this level, I play against two really good Kirby's on a frequent basis, and one of them has so many tricks on this level it's mind blowing. Plus his Fsmash will kill us EARLY. Pick this level against Fox, the random platforms that spawn will limit his movement severely, and he generally kills upwards, take that advantage away from him." - airgemini


Week 2 - Brinstar


Rating:

Pros: The small dimensions of the stage improves Jigglypuff's offstage game as well as strengthening many of her kill moves (namely Rest). The acid may be used to protect yourself from an offstage Rest as well as offering a costly 7th jump in case you use up your jumps when attempting an offstage gimp or kill. The vegetation on the stage offers a way to de-stale your moves, which helps for when the opponent gets in kill range. The permeable bottom floor allows for flexibility when recovering, and also the ability to attack while underneath the stage (sharking).

Cons: The small dimensions works against us as well, and Jigglypuff is susceptible to even earlier deaths. Rollout's usefulness is also limited due to the vegetation joining the stage halves together. Poor sharking can also lead to on-stage spikes from the opponent.

Counterpick Against:

Ban Against:

Summary: This stage is one of Jigglypuff's bread and butter stages and should be treated as such. High risk/high reward comes into play here.



Week 3 - Castle Siege


Current discussion.

*Reserved for Discussion*

I'll eventually arrange the stage discussions from Neutrals and so on.

reserved
/10 reserves

Are we rating out of 10 or 5?

Rating: / 10
Pros: Large top blastzone protects against early upwards deaths, short side blastzones for easier kills
Cons: Almost no area below the stage, going off stage is severely restricted because of it. Side blastzones can also cause you early deaths. Random percents and kos due to the level
Counterpick Against:
Choose Against: Isn't this the same as above?
Ban Against:
Summary: I do not like this level for Jiggs. At all. If this level gets CPed on me, I switch characters. The random percent you might take from the hazards matter way more for us, we have to constantly play to keep our percentage as LOW as possible, we can't afford a few stray % points. Watch out for Kirby on this level, I play against two really good Kirby's on a frequent basis, and one of them has so many tricks on this level it's mind blowing. Plus his Fsmash will kill us EARLY. Pick this level against Fox, the random platforms that spawn will limit his movement severely, and he generally kills upwards, take that advantage away from him.



EDIT: That banner looks ****ing awesome, Air. ****ing awesome. Any chance I might be able to get one for the matchup topic? Pweeease?

Do you have to do the whole format thing? Cause I'm no Jigglypuff main, and have only one real comment on this.

If it's ok, it was this: Some of the gimmicks can discourage her from staying airborne. So that'd be a con.

Eh you don't HAVE to use that format to post in here. If you just know some stuff but arent really experienced with the stage you can just post normally.

But if you do have knowledge/experience on the stage, then yeah I would like it if you post in the format.

Umm... Rating out of 10 seems good.

Pictochat is not a stage worth cping. It confers no benefit even remotely approaching Frigate or Norfair (my personal favorite CPs). As Thinkaman said, its not worth banning either. If I want to take someone to a weird stage that's rarely unbanned I'll go with Distant Planet lol.

Rating: ichu:
CP?: no
Ban: no

Worth noting is how awesome this stage is for completely non-competitive drunken matches.

I don't have much to say on this one, its just neutral for jiggs. Picking this stage will only be benificial if you know it better than your opponent.

I want to talk about castle siege next, i've got a couple ticks of up my selve on that stage.

Jigglymaster said:

i've got a couple ticks of up my selve on that stage.

Click to expand...

Thats probably a bad thing. I'd get those checked out.

I think I'll just go over the stages anyways.
I'm trying to attract new people over here and bring the community back together . If I just go with that logic it'll ruin the entire purpose of this thread (directed towards Thinkaman).

Yeah... I probably shouldn't have choose this stage as the first one.

EDIT: Manic read the rules!

rollout mindgames son

I lol'ed at the thread banner! Nice job!
EDIT: not your banner.... o.O

Rating: 6.5/10

Pros: The terrain the spawns on this stage usualy help jigglypuff like the rockets and springs. The one-way platfroms that appear are great for sharking. The blast box on the cieling isnt too bad, and the sides are pretty small resulting in faster kills.

Cons: No room under the stage for stage spikes, mobility, planking etc. Sometimes the objects can be annoying and can mess up WoP.

Counterpick Against:
Ban Against:

Summary: Take advantage of the blank stage and WoP.

Yeah I'll probably end this stage short by Sunday, I don't know why I picked it first o.o

And thanks! I love the banner, I didn't make it though.

I can still write the summaries...

It's not just that little rock trick. I've seen Kirby do some crazy stuff with his grabs, cutter, inhale, and yes, some with the rock, that are pretty much mind blowing. It's so hard to predict what he's going to do on that stage.

I assume the trick you're talking about is the rock on the slope of the edge.

illinialex24 said:

I can still write the summaries...

Click to expand...

Didn't you quit the Jiggs board?

I have no real opinion on Pictochat. I avoid it whenever possible.

Personally, I think it's a stupid level.

Pictochat is very stupid. That is all.

I CP pictochat against myself

Rating: What you rate the stage in your opinion?

Pros: What are the advantages of this stage in our favor?

Cons: What isn't in our advantage that isn't in our favor? No gimping room, small border, Stage kills.

Counterpick Against: What characters will this stage be a good CP against? ...

Choose Against: What characters should we choose this stage against? ??

Ban Against: What characters should we ban this stage against? :random:

Summary: Pound











Next =O

I think if you want to counterpick a neutral stage and are good with this level than its actually a pretty good stage for Jiggs when compared to other neutrals. It has a high ceiling, and some of the transformations can mess up some characters pretty bad but you are always in the air. Ive survived quite a few times after a missed rest by teching something on the stage that you can DI into. Also a fun note is that the spring cancels rest, so if you can bait your opponent onto there when it appears and it is actually pretty easy to hit since you follow the same path once you hit the spring.

i normally don't go pictochat for JP, but its an ok stage. JP doesn't really get much from it unless you make the hazards work for you i think..... and its a bit big.

i'll wait for the jungle japes discussion because it is sooo good

This week is Brinstar.

I think this is a pretty good stage. You can use Fair a lot and not worry about it decaying since you have a plethora of ways to refresh it. Rest kills a little earlier, you can risk Rests off stage if the acid is rising.

Woops, forgot to format it correctly, I'll edit later.

my thoughts

Rating: I give this stage 3 to 3.5 puffs.

Pros: go through bottom of the stage for sharking. lava helps wake jiggly up during rests. also if your opponent gets hit by the lava they will shoot up in the air. you can rest them out of the hitsun from the lava.

Cons: Hmm...can't use rollout because of where the stage separates.

Counterpick Against: and others

Ban Against: i guess wario because warios mains like this stage

Summary: I sometimes use this stage as a counter pick. There are a lot of things that jiggly can do here (although its not as good for her as it was in melee).

Thinkaman said:

Stages for Jigglypuff go like this:

Neutrals:
1. Battlefield
2. Stadium
3. Smashville
4. Lylat
5. Yoshi's
6. FD
7. Halberd

Bump Lylat up or down based on the other character. Of course, it doesn't matter since if they hate it at all Lylat will be their first strike; meanwhile against Snake, G&W, MK, and many popular characters, they are good enough there that it should be YOUR second strike. (Second to only Halberd.)

Stage Ban:
1. If you are playing a G&W main, ban Green Greens.
2. Elif Corneria is legal, ban that. Besides the above, no exceptions.
3. Elif you think your opponent will CP either Luigi's or Halberd, but WON'T CP Green Greens if you ban it, then ban it.
4. Elif Green Greens is legal, ban that.
5. Else... just ban Halberd.

Counterpicking:
1. If they didn't ban it, CP Norfair against everyone but Yoshi and perhaps Olimar.
2. Elif they are ICs, CP Frigate.
3. Elif they have low horizontal KO power and limited aerial mobility, consider Brinstar. If they have high aerial mobility, consider Japes.
4. Elif your opponent is Ness, CP Yoshi's.
4. Elif your opponent only plays characters that do poorly on Lylat, CP Lylat.
5. Else... just CP Battlefield.

That's it. That's the entire stage algorith mfor Jigglypuff, with all exceptions I can think of covered.

IMO all that deserves discussion is effective tactics on Brinstar and Luigi's, everything else is fairly obvious.

Click to expand...

I love this. Although the individual stages should be discussed in detail, I also think that we need to discuss Jiggly's cp options as a whole. Discussing this will greatly help Jiggs mains now and I personally believe it is more important than individual stage discussion. Though the individual stage discussion should still be done. Speaking of which, would it be better to put 2 stages up for discussion, like with the character discussion? Perhaps one bad and one good?

I have been away, for a while, so I'm not sure of some reasoning and conventions that have changed. I have a lot...

First of all, Battlefield. Since when has this stage been considered a good Jiggs stage? Although I've always loved this stage, last time I was here it was considered the worst of her neutrals because of landing on the platforms. Really, It has a fairly high ceiling, close sides, and the platforms force the opponent to consider aerial tactics rather than letting them stay grounded. Is this the reasoning?

What's wrong with Halberd? I kind of like the stage. For most of the level, Jiggs can go through the bottom of the stage, which is nice. There is plenty of room to be offstage, too. Is it mostly the low ceiling, or what?

Also, what's the matter with Luigi's? With the large dimensions and the house, Jigglypuff can survive longer than anywhere else. Knowing when to break down the house (when you are low %, opponent at high %) and when to keep it up will really help you out here. You can also refresh stale moves on the pillars. If you use 9 jabs, it takes very little time. Because of this, you can use fair all you want and then just refresh it.

I'm not too sure about norfair as a cp anymore. How are you supposed to be playing on it? I might be doing it wrong, but I don't usually get good results on that stage. The top platform is extremely close to the wall and the ceiling, meaning that any character with either a good horrizontal kill move or a vertical kill move has a huge advantage if you end up over there. There are major stage hazards there, and I find myself being cheated out of a win by them sometimes. It seems weird for Thinkaman to suggest for it to be your standard cp since the hazards make the stage unreliable.

So Thinkaman, why would you only choose frigate against one opponent (who I see none of)? Is it not a reliable CP? And what makes japes a good choice against those with good aerial movement? Is it just the fact that it is a better choice than brinstar in this case?

Thinkaman said:

And Kirby's little rock trick does not make Pictochat a good stage for him.

Click to expand...

Although that statement is true on it's own, it might be best to ban it anyways. The Kirby player will not just know the rock gimmick if he wants to go here, but will know a whole host of tricks. If he's anything like the Kirby player that both PND and I play (I assume you are talking about HiDef), he knows the stage the best out of all of them. He feels at home here with his host of tricks. By banning this stage, you are not so much avoiding the tricks as you are forcing your opponent out of his comfort zone. This is another aspect of stage bans: banning a stage your opponent loves, even if there is no problems there for your character. This is why I ban FD a lot, lol.

Rating: What you rate the stage in your opinion?

Pros: What are the advantages of this stage in our favor? Quote: airgemini " You can use Fair a lot and not worry about it decaying since you have a plethora of ways to refresh it. Rest kills a little earlier, you can risk Rests off stage if the acid is rising."

Cons: What isn't in our advantage that isn't in our favor? No rollout

Counterpick Against: What characters will this stage be a good CP against?

Choose Against: What characters should we choose this stage against?

Ban Against: What characters should we ban this stage against?

Summary: This is my rest stage, The lack of rollout is only a small disadvantage because you make up for it in rest off stage and ons tage. A great place to mind game your opponent but still not a first pick.

Don't go here against Wario or Lucas, make sure of that.

Rating:

Pros: Good platforms that help air game. Lava makes it so you don't have to be AS cautious off stage, but it goes away so you can still gimp off stage.

Cons: Basically just smaller blast box, so dieing faster.

Counterpick Against: I hate gyro so this stage is great against him. Throw it into the lava and it will bounce up and down while the lava is there so he's unable to use another one. Taking away this weapon helps me tons against him.

Ban Against: I'm not sure, I haven't come across someone on this stage that made me think it should be banned for anyone.

Summary: I don't like this stage very much but it's not bad for Jiggs. I tend to get reckless here since I don't worry nearly as much about dieing when I go off stage. Sometimes it's a problem lol.

Edit: just wondering, what do Lucas and Wario have here that makes it a good stage for them?

Thinkaman said:

Since when does anyone (who isn't in stun) have to land on a platform? Platforms are bad for the ones getting hit around in the air, not the one doing the hitting. So bad for them, not for you.

No it doesn't. Perfectly average along with all the other neutrals besides Halberd.

No, but it does have a more narrow stage base, which is a little like the opposite of that.

Click to expand...

Hmm, my mistakes. I was just using memory of the things I remember to make those judgements, like how good of fair kills I get etc. Not important.

Thinkaman said:

Actually, platforms (as undesirable places to be) make people hesitate a tiny bit more before jumping. They would rather stand under the platforms and camp if possible.

Click to expand...

What I mean to say is that I've played matches on FD where my opponent never used any aerials for the entire match. When part of the stage is above you, and characters land on platforms, aerials will be used. Jiggs will win a battle of aerials, so I find this beneficial.

Thinkaman said:

No, the reasons are that a narrow stage means more time off-stage and less powerful ground moves closer to the side, the platforms and flat base help maximize chains, the lack of sloped areas helps approach against defensive characters, the stage can be flown under if need be, and stage-spikes are very possible.

Click to expand...

Ya, I've always liked this stage, generally. However, what about certain matchups? Like, with characters with long ranges and can effectively camp under the platforms? Obviously this is avoidable, but if we have to spend our time getting around this, then the stage is no longer in our favour. I'm thinking of characters like Lucario and Olimar, who benefit from camping intrinsically as characters. There are others, but wouldn't there be better choices here?

Thinkaman said:

It's a relatively wide stage, so no, it gives less off-stage combat. Yes, the low ceiling is what does it. The overall shape of the stage does her no big favors either, although she likes the platform and the ability to "shark". I've toyed with the idea of trying to take MKs here and praying for rests. I recant that idea.

Click to expand...

Well, this explains why I usually lose my matches here. XD Even sharking can be done on brinstar and Delphino, so ya, this stage has very little merit for Jiggs. I've taken MK's here for the same reason, but shuttle loop kills at 40% on the sides kind of kills that...

Thinkaman said:

So can all characters... see how flawed this logic is?

Jigglypuff is impacted more by stale moves than anyone. If your opponent will allow you to reset your list via pillars, Luigi's becomes a great stage for her. There's also the jab lock. In practice though, you will not be allowed to refresh moves often, you'll never get a jab lock, and you will be forced to rely on fair more and more as an approach crutch on the bototm levels. They can bait fair around pillars for force Jigglypuff to stale it... but I've never actually had anyone be that smart.

Click to expand...

The logic isn't that flawed because I'm not saying that it should be her counterpick, but that it isn't bad enough for you to ban it. She is greatly affected by stale moves, and she probably can refresh her moves during a match. If she uses jab, 9 jabs goes by in 4 seconds which is more than enough time in-between KO's. Also, if the opponent is campy (which is expected here), Jiggs will have time to refill at least some of her moves.

When you say Jab Lock, do you mean the one set up by uthrow or dthrow under the ceilings? I haven't heard anyone talk about it before, but I came up with it independently the other day. But if its already known... The only way for it to work is if you do a running dash and immeadiatly uthrow. They may not be able to DI away if you take them by surprise. Even then...

Something that should be mentioned is the uthrow>rest combo under the ceilings that PNDMike and I were playing around with. Although it has similar problems as the jab set up, you can usually hit for good damage with little chance of being punished too hard. BUT there is a spot were the ceiling ends on each side where and uthrow will hit them into the ceiling, but once they go behind you, the rest will shoot them up out of the house. Just so you guys know.

Thinkaman said:

Aerially.

It's a strongly aerial stage with close sides and a high ceiling. The hazards are very predictable, force people to jump (or roll at times), and reward people with good grab games.

What more do you want, gift-wrapping? The only way this stage could be better is if they took away all the edges, or better yet all the edges but the bottom ones, or best yet, all the edges but the middle ones.

Click to expand...

Well, when you put it like that, lol. I forget, what kind of port do you need for your opponent to be hit by the hazard and not you? Higher or Lower? Well, what about characters who are also strong in the air, especially ones with good grab games? What about characters the excel in planking? Is it still a good idea to pick this stage against them? For example, this is a strong stage for Kirby, and Bowser has great planking here. MK is a B**** to fight here. Wouldn't it be best to pick another stage? Also, if they don't ban the stage, doesn't that mean they are probably good at it? Does Jigglypuff really beat out everyone aerially and all plankers here?

Thinkaman said:

Frigate has a high ceiling and is really easy to gimp Nana on. Like, really easy.

Brinstar is bad against ICs imo, because even though it's very hard for them to get grabs there... if you are playign Jigglypuff against them correctly it should already be that hard and Brinstar shouldn't make it all that harder. Then, since the sides and ceiling are so small, they can KO you are a much lower percent; many ICs can cg Jigglypuff to a decent percent, but not that high... enough to KO on Brinstar or Corneria, not enough to KO on say Frigate or Japes. It's much harder, at any rate.

Brinstar is mainly a stage that is strictly for CPing against characters that are bad in the air. It's an aerial stage, which is why you might see players of characters like Wario cp it.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I see your logic for the why you would cp it for the IC's, but my really question is why would you not use that stage against any other characters? Do you not like the stage personally?

I think I will start using Brinstar as a CP from now on. I think it was an option I was missing as a jiggs main, and you guys are making it sound pretty good.

@ Moozle: To answer your question, Lucas is good here because the weird tentacle things extend his hitboxes. This is mostly a problem for his smashes, which last a horrid amount of time and already have ridiculous power and range. Mix that in with a small stage, and you've got yourself a huge problem. As an extension, Zelda would be good here, though I think the stage can kill her a bunch...

As for Wario, the stage is good for characters with good control in the air and recovery options. Since Wario moves faster than Jiggs does in the air. He won't be gimped by the stage, and it’s small enough to get him good kills.