Peach Weekly Match-Up Rediscussion: Donkey Kong

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · May 16, 2009

As the number of characters left to discuss in the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread begins to dwindle, I've have decided to start up topics for rediscussing characters who I feel may need to be covered again. This is primarily due to potential changes in the match up, new discoveries, new tactics and how they may have affected the match up. Also, for some characters, because they were discussed a long time ago, they may be out of date

Now because I can't trust some of you on this board, I'm going to copy/paste these rules on all of these rediscussion threads:

-SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EXAMPLES/EVIDENCE/THOUGHT/VIDEO. Do not say "Snake beats Peach" or "Peach owns Wolf" or something out of the blue without explaining why, you are just wasting thread space. Keep intelligent discussion.

-We are here to learn, not fight. We're all trying to become better Peach players, so please don't get into over heated discussions - learn and be reasonable.

-This thread serves two purposes. A) To determine how the matchup goes for Peach. B) To determine how to handle the matchup. So not only post why you think it goes (see guideline below), but post strategies and what you do that works.

-Feel free to add really good tactics you discover of a character already discussed. New tactics are helpful and don't think just because its already been discussed not to add anything, or we will never get better information on the matchup as the meta game progresses!

- PLEASE let me know if you want me to highlight anything from the thread discussion into that respective character's "summary" on this page. I'm not always sure whats the best advice and whats not so help point it out to me for me to highlight

- Attempting to ridicule someone to prove your point will not be tolerated. It disgusts me when people try to do this. If someone struggles with something and you don't or if someone thinks the match up is such and such because of this and you think 'well you can do this and this, why are they saying that?' for the love of god, explain to them your viewpoint. Insults such as 'well your air game must suck if you find this hard' are pathetic, childish and I will mostly likely disregard whatever else you have to say

I wish I didn't have to feel the need to do this as it clusters up the OP of each of these topics and someones going to have a cry about me putting this but sadly, I can't trust some of you. I don't care about personal feuds or the like. Keep the discussion match up related ok?

Now that's out of the way...this rediscussion will be dedicated to:

Donkey Kong

He's here. Monkey clap slap

Ripple · May 16, 2009

its dead even

Dk lives forever and it doesn't help that peach can't kill that well.
peach is light and a d smash from dk will will around 80-90%
peach stays in the air which is annoying to us
peach can combo but that doesn't matter too much since whatever damage you can do in 6 hits, dk can do in 2-3.

chain grab on dk=not fun

Praxis · May 16, 2009

55-45 Peach IMO...

Everything Ripple said is true, but I've realized very recently that if Peach gets a percent lead she can camp DK horribly. Reverse glide toss camp all day long, he can't catch up, and if she shields an attack from him while holding a turnip it's a free hit.

Sure, it's gay and takes forever, but it works VERY effectively. Get a lead and GGs. If you don't run away the whole match after getting a lead, it's very even.

Thinks Peach has on DK:
Short hop dair + floating before peach hits the ground and dairing again to nair or back air autocancel to dsmash is pretty much guaranteed shield break or shield poke depending on if the shield is angled. I <3 doing this to heavyweights.

Dair > nair comes out before DK can utilt OOS. Chaingrab goes to 30% and can be ended in a ftilt to 40%.

Peach can do a LOT of damage in combos to DK and really destroys him from underneath (utilt ftw). Her fair is unpunishable against his shield (autocancel fair to jab beats anything he can do OOS, including grab). Any time he hits her shield while she's holding a turnip is a guaranteed turnip hit.

She can gimp him by floating against the ledge and releasing right as he reaches her with up-B.

DK has on Peach:

Utilt swats her out of float if she tries to keep dairing.

He lives forever, she has trouble killing.

Bair shuts down all her approaches, except for running into the bair with shield while holding a turnip or dairing from way above.

He kills her faster...(however, this is mediated by the fact that she can space to avoid his kill moves very easily via float).

JigglyZelda003 · May 16, 2009

hi ripple

i haven't played a DK for a while so i can't say anything really

i was also Fox then

but does the cg go longer than it does on spacies?

*goes back to lurking*

Darknid · May 16, 2009

praxis nailed it in my experience. I hate peach's camping, it's really annoying.

But if you're not gonna camp..I'd say 6-4 DK honestly. DK's bair smacks peach very reliably and it isn't safe to try and descend with a fair because DK does have a great OOS option vs this, the spinning kong. If you autocancel a fair into a jab and DK reacts with a spinning kong, he will absorb your attack and proceed to deal 20-37% damage to you. Remember, 37% is about half of the damage you take before you get into kill range.

Basically don't stale your kill move(fair) at all, combo the crap out of him and use fair to kill when the situation arises. Maybe 150%? Though if you are near the edge, it can be significantly lower. DK will also always survive as long as he has time to bair > up B. I've actually gotten peaches to stale their fair from repeatedly hitting me as I FF'd after up B brakes..it's kinda funny.

If he has a fully charged punch and you're in kill range, you are advised not to fair because he will absorb it due to fair's laggy startup speed and punch you(which will kill you around 70%). You need to bait the punch and then prevent him from charging another.

Don't try to gimp him. You can gimp him, but it's very dangerous to try. Even if you grab the edge the moment he reaches you, you won't edge hog him and he will probably go right over the stage for a lagless landing anyway, now he's edge guarding you with his broken F smash. Enjoy! You don't want to meet DK offstage, he has so many spikes and he has a nice WOP to destroy you. He can gimp you, so recover high every time.

DK weighs a lot more than you, outranges you, heavily outpunches you(I'd put him right behind ganon in terms of kill power), and is also faster than you. You're better off camping. Do the best you can not to get grabbed, DK's grab game really hurts.

As for stages, DK loves Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes and Brinstar. He can also **** on Delfino, Pictochat and Distant Planet. Good thing for Peach she's good on most of these. I'd say ban Luigi's/Brinstar and don't take him to Delfino/Japes(nobody has an advantage over DK on Japes..not even you). Take him to a stage you can camp him on, but he lives forever on FD so watch out.

Oh and everybody knows this but don't let him get ahold of your turnips, or it's over.

Praxis · May 17, 2009

Actually, Peach and DK have pretty much the same good stages. When I play DK's, I just CP what I feel like playing because I know any stage I pick he'll be good at too.

Japes and Mansion are probably better for Peach than DK because she can camp better LOL.

I actually like Brinstar because I can slingshot Peach bomber off of the pillars to do weird crap. xD

Also, why shouldn't I let him get ahold of my turnips? >_>

Don't try to gimp him. You can gimp him, but it's very dangerous to try. Even if you grab the edge the moment he reaches you, you won't edge hog him and he will probably go right over the stage for a lagless landing anyway, now he's edge guarding you with his broken F smash. Enjoy! You don't want to meet DK offstage, he has so many spikes and he has a nice WOP to destroy you. He can gimp you, so recover high every time.

I've landed gimps on DK. You can sometimes force his recovery lower with turnips, then drop and float and edgehog right before he hits you by timing it with float. It's doable with practice, but the situation only arises occasionally- but it DOES arise.

I MM'd CBK as my first real DK experience back when I was a much more aggressive player (I never camped or planked) and I felt it was more of a 50-50 matchup. IIRC we played something like six matches if you count the friendlies and the MM, and we took turns winning. He won the MM 2-1 last stock high percent. I felt Peach did have options...sure, bair shuts her down pretty well, but if he's moving towards you with it you can float bair OOS and if you're holding a turnip you can turnip OOS. Floating higher and dairing prevents him from bairing, and SH dair > floated bair before touching the ground > Dsmash is a guaranteed shield break if he angles his shield and a guaranteed shield poke if he doesn't. Plus you can CG him.

Also, I want to note that every DK I know IRL is a really cool dude. xD

Razmakazi · May 17, 2009

i would never want to play on brinstar vs. DK. i'd hate mansion too though b/c peach will have suuuuuuch a hard time but then it's such a dumb auto-win if you just camp and run away from DK for 8 minutes but that's horrible.

White-Peach · May 17, 2009

Saying one move beats everything outright isn't a very good defense for your character. You need to have options and no commitment, be a ***** :DDD Never commit to an approach and have have options available and you have the advantage. Because peach can hide behind projectiles (literally, sending them in first to force a response), with the option to use various fast, high-priority attacks, she's not disadvantaged by something laggy like DK's BAir. Chuck turnips until you get the response you want, close the distance and punish the lag. Get in and stay in as long as you can, create room then edgeguard if the situation arises. The only thing you really have to worry about from DK is the deceptive superarmor frames on some of his attacks that leave you open if you try to "stun" them with slaps.

Praxis · May 18, 2009

Razmakazi said:
i would never want to play on brinstar vs. DK. i'd hate mansion too though b/c peach will have suuuuuuch a hard time but then it's such a dumb auto-win if you just camp and run away from DK for 8 minutes but that's horrible.

Edrees advocates Mansion here IIRC. Probably because of exactly what you just described. xD I hate that stage, if it was ever CP'd on me I would run away the whole match to spite the person who picked it. (It's banned in WA)

I always pick Brinstar, I beat CBK and Mr. B0jangles there (B0jangles has gotten sooooo much better in the last 1-2 months, he's good). It's a good DK stage, but I think it's equally good for Peach. Peach bomber slingshotting is amazing.

Dark.Pch · May 18, 2009

Darknid said:
praxis nailed it in my experience. I hate peach's camping, it's really annoying.

But if you're not gonna camp..I'd say 6-4 DK honestly. DK's bair smacks peach very reliably and it isn't safe to try and descend with a fair because DK does have a great OOS option vs this, the spinning kong. If you autocancel a fair into a jab and DK reacts with a spinning kong, he will absorb your attack and proceed to deal 20-37% damage to you. Remember, 37% is about half of the damage you take before you get into kill range.

Peach does not neexd to camp DK to beat him If they choose to do that and that is all you see then ok. But she does not need to and if she does not, this match is not 6-0 DK. If DK wants to Bair, I don't test that move. People try too much to test and beat it. thats why they get hit. What they SHOULD be doing is moving in and shielding. Then Nair or air out of shield since DK will lag if he short hops them and the cool down time of the move gives Peach evnough time to take advatange of him.

Basically don't stale your kill move(fair) at all, combo the crap out of him and use fair to kill when the situation arises. Maybe 150%? Though if you are near the edge, it can be significantly lower. DK will also always survive as long as he has time to bair > up B. I've actually gotten peaches to stale their fair from repeatedly hitting me as I FF'd after up B brakes..it's kinda funny.

If Peach wants to kill K well, she should not be staling that move. To keep you out the stage over and over she can bair you or even Nair you. or if you somehow need more damage before you die, she can go and dair you. What I do to DK is that when they try to up-B to the stage, I go near the leage and toad to send them back out. then they get a lil scared and up-b to the stage. with this I run a few feet back and hit them with a fsmash. Of since DK is helpless when his up-B is over, sweetspot a upsmash and he is done. That up-B may have great use for DK, but it has great use for Peach as well. Really in terms of killing you earlier with a sweetspotted Fsmash (racket) or upsmash

If he has a fully charged punch and you're in kill range, you are advised not to fair because he will absorb it due to fair's laggy startup speed and punch you(which will kill you around 70%). You need to bait the punch and then prevent him from charging another.

if he wants to laucn a punch on the ground , best option is to jump behind him and bair him. Or if you have quick raction, toad.

Don't try to gimp him. You can gimp him, but it's very dangerous to try. Even if you grab the edge the moment he reaches you, you won't edge hog him and he will probably go right over the stage for a lagless landing anyway, now he's edge guarding you with his broken F smash. Enjoy! You don't want to meet DK offstage, he has so many spikes and he has a nice WOP to destroy you. He can gimp you, so recover high every time.

as I said before, just go of the ledge to he point where you are in front of it and toad. if he comes from under, do the same thing and Dair him. And I explained what you can do if DK just has no choice but to aim to the stage. One downside to his up-b is that played right, you can control where DK has to up-B, ether the ledge or on stage.

DK weighs a lot more than you, outranges you, heavily outpunches you(I'd put him right behind ganon in terms of kill power), and is also faster than you. You're better off camping. Do the best you can not to get grabbed, DK's grab game really hurts.

Again Peach does not need to grab him. Why? cause Peach has more options to get at DK then just camping:

- Spacing
- Pressure
- Air evasion
- Projectille to mess up his approaches
- Spacing with speed (in other words Peach spacing is faster than yours)
- quicker brawler up close then you
As for stages, DK loves Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes and Brinstar. He can also **** on Delfino, Pictochat and Distant Planet. Good thing for Peach she's good on most of these. I'd say ban Luigi's/Brinstar and don't take him to Delfino/Japes(nobody has an advantage over DK on Japes..not even you). Take him to a stage you can camp him on, but he lives forever on FD so watch out.

dont know much in terms of stages with DK so no comment for now.

Oh and everybody knows this but don't let him get ahold of your turnips, or it's over.

I don't see how. For with a turnip you cant use your normal attacks. And I can just get another. But the difference is. I can use my air attacks while still holding a turnip. Which makes me more lethal then you.

And if you are gonna bring up glide toss to a DK punch then I already know that if that is what you mean by "its over" and seriously, it is not.

EdreesesPieces · May 18, 2009

I like Luigi's against DK because I even like Luigi's against Metaknight. It's just my stage hands down. Peach's down air wrecks people here. If they tech your down air it sets you up for upsmash. Keep that in mind, especially against DK, because he won't tech your upsmash and it will likely kill him off the side because Upsmash is that strong.

Brinstar gives DK a slight advantage. I don't advise it. Like Praxis said, pick stages where you can run away and turnip with a lead, placing him in a very aggressive mode (which isn't good) every time he's approaching you. I just treat him like a DDD that can't chaingrab me.

If you see him down B, short hop Peach bomber is amazing for this.

deepseadiva · May 18, 2009

I love Luigi's Mansion. That's my ~~song~~ stage.

Keep this in mind though, if the DK has fast enough fingers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsB2d6Slac

Probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

Darknid · May 20, 2009

First off I'd like to tell you to STOP replying to things this way, it just makes it a pain in the *** for the other person to reply back.

Dark.Pch said:
Peach does not neexd to camp DK to beat him If they choose to do that and that is all you see then ok. But she does not need to and if she does not, this match is not 6-0 DK. If DK wants to Bair, I don't test that move. People try too much to test and beat it. thats why they get hit. What they SHOULD be doing is moving in and shielding. Then Nair or air out of shield since DK will lag if he short hops them and the cool down time of the move gives Peach evnough time to take advatange of him.

DK will rarely use bair as an air to ground move, that's too punishable. DK will use bair when you decide to float, because it beats everything you do in the air. He doesn't have to SH double bair, he can just throw one out there to stop you from using your air to ground ridiculousness and retreat with the second. It's a lot safer than you may think, but yeah SH double bair approach is awful even if you land the first one, good DKs don't do it. I know you're a big name and I have seen your skills, but this one seems like a theory craft.

Dark.Pch said:
If Peach wants to kill K well, she should not be staling that move. To keep you out the stage over and over she can bair you or even Nair you. or if you somehow need more damage before you die, she can go and dair you. What I do to DK is that when they try to up-B to the stage, I go near the leage and toad to send them back out. then they get a lil scared and up-b to the stage. with this I run a few feet back and hit them with a fsmash. Of since DK is helpless when his up-B is over, sweetspot a upsmash and he is done. That up-B may have great use for DK, but it has great use for Peach as well. Really in terms of killing you earlier with a sweetspotted Fsmash (racket) or upsmash

Who are the DKs that you play against regularly? Just asking. There's also a lagless landing version of the up B over the stage, which you cannot punish. You also can't really plan a sweetspotted racket because as far as I know they don't come out in any particular order. U smash is good, but punishable and hard to sweetspot.

Dark.Pch said:
if he wants to laucn a punch on the ground , best option is to jump behind him and bair him. Or if you have quick raction, toad.

Er..How are you going to do this if he's used it to absorb your fair with the super armor and hit you? Context, dude.

Dark.Pch said:
as I said before, just go of the ledge to he point where you are in front of it and toad. if he comes from under, do the same thing and Dair him. And I explained what you can do if DK just has no choice but to aim to the stage. One downside to his up-b is that played right, you can control where DK has to up-B, ether the ledge or on stage.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you toad DK, he will be launched high enough to simply jump back to the stage. Same with dair, he will be able to return to the stage either way. Unless he's expended his second jump before using up B(no reason to 99% of the time), you probably won't keep him off. You're also missing the point of what I said, which is, if you fail he's edgeguarding you at that point and you really don't want that.

Dark.Pch said:
Again Peach does not need to grab him. Why? cause Peach has more options to get at DK then just camping:

- Spacing
- Pressure
- Air evasion
- Projectille to mess up his approaches
- Spacing with speed (in other words Peach spacing is faster than yours)
- quicker brawler up close then you

I never said anything about Peach grabbing DK. I'm advising you, the peach mains, not to get grabbed. DK's grab game is extremely good.

DK's spacing is just plain better. Bair, F tilt, Down B, D tilt..Just great spacing moves. Plus I'm pretty sure he's faster than you anyway.

You're right about the projectile though. Just camp.

Dark.Pch said:
I don't see how. For with a turnip you cant use your normal attacks. And I can just get another. But the difference is. I can use my air attacks while still holding a turnip. Which makes me more lethal then you.

And if you are gonna bring up glide toss to a DK punch then I already know that if that is what you mean by "its over" and seriously, it is not.

This is actually a joke around the DK boards, don't let DK get ahold of your <item> or it's over.

Also, there's glide toss to grab and glide toss to D smash.

Metatitan · May 20, 2009

EdreesesPieces said:
I like Luigi's against DK because I even like Luigi's against Metaknight. It's just my stage hands down. Peach's down air wrecks people here. If they tech your down air it sets you up for upsmash. Keep that in mind, especially against DK, because he won't tech your upsmash and it will likely kill him off the side because Upsmash is that strong.

Brinstar gives DK a slight advantage. I don't advise it. Like Praxis said, pick stages where you can run away and turnip with a lead, placing him in a very aggressive mode (which isn't good) every time he's approaching you. I just treat him like a DDD that can't chaingrab me.

If you see him down B, short hop Peach bomber is amazing for this.

xyro just cried

Xyro77 · May 21, 2009

i did????????????????

Praxis · May 21, 2009

Also, there's glide toss to grab and glide toss to D smash.

I've never worried much about glide tosses really...Peach can just short hop a dair if she sees a glide toss start, it'll eat the turnip AND interrupt any smash the opponent is starting up during the slide.

Darknid · May 21, 2009

It'll beat D smash? Come on now..

do you feel lucky? woman?

DO YA

You better be. One D smash is about 1/3rd of the damage you take before you're in kill range against Donkey Kong.

Dark.Pch · May 21, 2009

Darknid said:
DK will rarely use bair as an air to ground move, that's too punishable. DK will use bair when you decide to float, because it beats everything you do in the air. He doesn't have to SH double bair, he can just throw one out there to stop you from using your air to ground ridiculousness and retreat with the second. It's a lot safer than you may think, but yeah SH double bair approach is awful even if you land the first one, good DKs don't do it. I know you're a big name and I have seen your skills, but this one seems like a theory craft.

Who are the DKs that you play against regularly? Just asking. There's also a lagless landing version of the up B over the stage, which you cannot punish. You also can't really plan a sweetspotted racket because as far as I know they don't come out in any particular order. U smash is good, but punishable and hard to sweetspot.

Er..How are you going to do this if he's used it to absorb your fair with the super armor and hit you? Context, dude.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you toad DK, he will be launched high enough to simply jump back to the stage. Same with dair, he will be able to return to the stage either way. Unless he's expended his second jump before using up B(no reason to 99% of the time), you probably won't keep him off. You're also missing the point of what I said, which is, if you fail he's edgeguarding you at that point and you really don't want that.

I never said anything about Peach grabbing DK. I'm advising you, the peach mains, not to get grabbed. DK's grab game is extremely good.

DK's spacing is just plain better. Bair, F tilt, Down B, D tilt..Just great spacing moves. Plus I'm pretty sure he's faster than you anyway.

You're right about the projectile though. Just camp.

This is actually a joke around the DK boards, don't let DK get ahold of your <item> or it's over.

Also, there's glide toss to grab and glide toss to D smash.

Ok Debate time. This is why I love my job, heh heh.

First paragraph- Peach does not need to be floating all the time. I actually hardly float in general. If he is jumping at the height you talk about, Then I can just do as I said before, move in with the shield and Nair if close enough. Or if I have a turnip, go in and shield, then glide toss to you while tossing the turnip upward to hit you. This is how you deal with characters that have bairs like this. and I already explained what would happen if he was to short hop them.

Second paragraph- You don't understand what I am telling you. You said before that Peach players would stale thier fairs from edge guarding DK. I am telling you that Peach has other means to keep you out. and even if it does not kill him, Peach will still have her finishers buff to finally end the monkey. Also to sweet spot an upsmash is not really that hard. I land this about 90% of the time when I have the chance. And I am talking about finishing him with it when he has no choice to up-B on stage.

Third paragraph- what? what does Fair have to do with this. I am talking about if Peach baits his Punch or you just see it comming, go behind and hit him with a bair. I am not getting what you are saying here.

fourth paragraph- If he pops up from toad and dairs, then ok. You don't get the point of this so let me explain this to you. Peach can't kill will remember? and she certainly is not gonna kill you well of an edge guard unless you are at a kill % for Peach. So might as well use other moves to damage you while you try to come back. And then at the same time I keep my finishers buffed or refresh them. One way or another, I am gonna hurt you while you try to return. And that is the point. So expect me to just keep fairing you or just let you get back on without taking any hits when I have a chance to deal some damage to you? This is being smart here. Not like you was gonna trully die anyway, so best thing is to get some hits in, wether you make it back from my assult or not.

Fifth paragraph- I'm telling you that Peach does NOT need to camp DK to beat him and listed her options outside of camping. And honestly, I camped a DK. The fight lasted a while cause just getting love taps and all the evasion. Just fighting him and some turnips in here and there are much better. But if Peach players wanna camp him then so be it. But honestly, she does not need to at all. But if we wanted to be pricks, then yea. Also DK may have what, running speed over Peach, But Peach is a faster brawler up close and her spacing is faster than DK's

Last paragraph- if you gonna glide toss me to a Dsmash or a grab, one word: Jab. I can jab the turnip to w/e I want next to stop your assult of jab out the shield once that turnip hits it. Jab is range, priority and its 2 frames. best option for this situation that will stop you in your tracks.

EdreesesPieces · May 21, 2009

I don't see how it's being a prick to camp. Well then I consider it a prick move for DK to use their back air.

Praxis · May 21, 2009

Darknid said:
It'll beat D smash? Come on now..

do you feel lucky? woman?

DO YA

You better be. One D smash is about 1/3rd of the damage you take before you're in kill range against Donkey Kong.

It'll stop dsmash during the startup frames and prevent it from coming out. You'll slide into the dair as you start it.

EdreesesPieces said:
I don't see how it's being a prick to camp. Well then I consider it a prick move for DK to use their back air.

Edrees logic is my favorite thing in the world. It always makes sense <3

It's like, the inverse of Inui Logic.

Darknid · May 21, 2009

okay

1. DK will not throw a second if you approach with shield, and he won't SH bairs if you're standing on the ground. He will do it as a response to your floating.

2. No, I didn't, I advised peach players not to stale their fair and if you fail to gimp DK, you have to face his crazy gimping ability.

3. You responded to a statement I made about DK absorbing your fair(which comes out slowly, so DK can react) with the punch. That's all I said, and nothing you've said in response to it has had anything to do with it. Also, DK can D smash you after a punch faster than you can jump over him and bair. His punch has low ending lag.

4. But what happens if you mess up and get gimped? That's not playing smart.

5. Yes, he runs and walks faster but he also moves faster in the air. He is at the top of A tier(7th overall) in aerial movement speed, while Peach is in the middle of C tier(24th overall) Your faster moves up close are...jab. If you jab him, it will just reset the spacing to a longer distance where he likes it. Meanwhile, if he shields your jab you're in for some serious pain from his grab game, or he could D tilt you 3 times then down B. oops! you're about 10% away from kill range after that. Either way you are putting yourself in more danger simply by going near him than he is when he goes near you.

6. Sure, your jab can beat it, but he can also glide toss to shieldgrab if he wants. Also, his D smash heavily outranges your jab and there's a chance you won't reach him before he pounds you.

Basically, there seem to have been a lot of misunderstandings here. Ripple and Praxis did a better job summing it up.

Dark.Pch · May 21, 2009

EdreesesPieces said:
I don't see how it's being a prick to camp. Well then I consider it a prick move for DK to use their back air.

I ment it as if I wanted to play gay. Since I said Peach does not need to camp DK to get at him. She can beat his as without camping. So if I was to camping him thats just taking it to another level not needed to win since Peach can beat him just fine without camping.

Darknid, i'm going out to practice in brawl. I'll deal with this when I get back. if you have anything else, just add it now and I'll deal with it tonight. This is far from over. I'll get to the true hardcore details tonight and correct all you just said.

EdreesesPieces · May 21, 2009

You can beat DK without camping, true. But if you are in the lead, it is always to your advantage to make your opponent come up with an approach, because with the exception of Metaknight, every character in this game is more vulnerable approaching than they are playing not doing so. But I see what you are saying - if you are approaching a lot and you can beat a DK player up that way (which is certaintly possible) then there's no need to camp. IMO you should try both for a short period and see which ones yields you better results against that DK player, and go with that strategy. This goes for any opponent. but it's not like i'm camping to be a prick, I do it to win the match, just as DK uses back air to try to win the match. Camping is boring, but it's not any more mean or nice than using a close combat strategy which was the point of my analogy

And thanks praxis. we think so alike <3

hova · May 21, 2009

y is Praxis's answer to everything 'get a lead and camp with reverse glidetoss' ?

Praxis · May 21, 2009

Because great minds think alike, and clearly you are not a great mind.

Also, it's just my solution to heavyweights and characters that can up-B me OOS if I approach. We just happened to have discussed Dedede and DK back to back, and Metaknight shortly before. XD

Ripple · May 22, 2009

DK's glide toss is not good. it just goes far. it has terrible ending lag. why do the dk's bring that up?

I still say this is even. if peach's just keep glide tossing then dk can just air dodge approach. which is pretty effective since DK has a low short hop.

Canvasofgrey · May 22, 2009

Distance is still nice, but I do notice that DK players don't really use their Glidetoss when I'm playing as Peach, I always wondered why. I guess the lag is my answer to that. Though, I still think Zelda's Glidetoss is better. >_>;

Bair is my only real problem against DK players. That, and my habits just make me eat a Fsmash... But that's not important. Other than that, I don't think Peach has too much of a problem against DK, but she still has to be aware that DK's power is stupid, and can lose a stock at like, 80%.

In the air, I don't think Peach has to be scared of DK's aerials. Aside from Bair which comes out fast and is strong, (WTF is with everyone's Bair being so good? GnW, 3D, DK.... Sheesh) DK's aerials more or less are slow. I find Peach's Nair outprioritizes and does the trick in aerial combat most of the time.

Praxis · May 22, 2009

Ripple said:
I still say this is even. if peach's just keep glide tossing then dk can just air dodge approach. which is pretty effective since DK has a low short hop.

A) Peach's glide toss moves her away from him, so that's not very effective.

B) Peach can hold on to the turnip, and shield DK's attack, and it's a free turnip OOS.

C) Peach can SH a dair or float a dair (if she's holding a turnip) into DK's air dodge for a free dair combo. Peach dair ***** airdodges and spotdodges.

Darknid · May 22, 2009

the slowness is the only thing that makes it good, because it ensures that your attack/grab will come immediately after they are hit or they shield/dodge the projectile.

As for retreating with glide toss..Unless this is FD or something, I don't think you'll be able to stay way from DK forever if he just PSes your turnip and moves forward. You still need to pluck a new turnip and you may run out of stage. Even if it is FD, DK can jump high into the air to avoid that, because his air speed is nasty and he has enough control to land with a spaced bair.

mountain_tiger · May 22, 2009

hova said:
y is Praxis's answer to everything 'get a lead and camp with reverse glidetoss' ?

It seems that reverse glide tossing is 'suepr effective'. I'm not going to argue against Praxis about it, since he seems to be one of the most experienced Peach's on here.

Dark.Pch · May 22, 2009

Darknid said:
okay

1. DK will not throw a second if you approach with shield, and he won't SH bairs if you're standing on the ground. He will do it as a response to your floating.

2. No, I didn't, I advised peach players not to stale their fair and if you fail to gimp DK, you have to face his crazy gimping ability.

3. You responded to a statement I made about DK absorbing your fair(which comes out slowly, so DK can react) with the punch. That's all I said, and nothing you've said in response to it has had anything to do with it. Also, DK can D smash you after a punch faster than you can jump over him and bair. His punch has low ending lag.

4. But what happens if you mess up and get gimped? That's not playing smart.

5. Yes, he runs and walks faster but he also moves faster in the air. He is at the top of A tier(7th overall) in aerial movement speed, while Peach is in the middle of C tier(24th overall) Your faster moves up close are...jab. If you jab him, it will just reset the spacing to a longer distance where he likes it. Meanwhile, if he shields your jab you're in for some serious pain from his grab game, or he could D tilt you 3 times then down B. oops! you're about 10% away from kill range after that. Either way you are putting yourself in more danger simply by going near him than he is when he goes near you.

6. Sure, your jab can beat it, but he can also glide toss to shieldgrab if he wants. Also, his D smash heavily outranges your jab and there's a chance you won't reach him before he pounds you.

Basically, there seem to have been a lot of misunderstandings here. Ripple and Praxis did a better job summing it up.

1- Good, tha'ts actually what I want and have lil to worry about.

2- ok. But I still had to take the time to advise you how she can edgeguard you.

3- Peach should not even be hitting his Punch in the first place with a Fair. That move has super armor. Also I can hit you before a Dsmash. My bair is 6 frames. Also now that I think about it, I dont have to get behind you. I can just drop a bair on your head.

4- And what happens if I don't mess up? see how that works, then that would have been a smart move. you are not countering this idea here. since no one is perfect. people do mess up. it is an idea for that situation and dealing with it. If I mess up, my fault, oh well. If I don't then yay for me. point is its something to do to deal with the situation.

5- And this is why I limit my floating in cases like his. I just shorthop my moves. Also you are faster in the air right. So that meansd I really won't have to chase you much when it goes to the air cause while moving in, you will already be inside my range to punish and I then deal my air assult. Also You must be thinking of me double jabbing to reset the spacing. I jab you once and from there I can grab you or do w/e. So I choice if I wanna reset the spacing or keep you in my face to pound on you. Peach is not in danger taking it upclose to DK at all. Jabs, spacing and evasion (good evasion) is all that Peach needs to get at him and stop these Dtilts to D-B And once again. she is a ftaer brawler then you up close.

6- You can not glide to too a grab or shield grab. His glidetoss lags so not happening, you are getting jabbed or if anything, eating a Nair out of shield. So it is the other way around, you wont grab me before I pound on you.

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