How to DI with wolf

JCav · May 17, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBtu5gsnyc

sorry it took so long, i said i was gonna do it thursday but i played all weekend so i didnt have time till now.

i wasnt quite sure how to make a video on how to DI because i assumed you guys would know.
i just wanted to show the moves that can make wolf live until the highest percent.

i could make more vids for this if i forgot something or if i need to make a video for anything else

Ishiey · May 17, 2009

Man, I still find it so weird... Do you think that it could be some sort of combination of the fastest move to come out and the longest to stay out? But then why would fair work worse than uair, but uair work better than bair....

This stuff is crazy.

Nice video, good solid proof about what moves to use for DI.

JCav · May 17, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Man, I still find it so weird... Do you think that it could be some sort of combination of the fastest move to come out and the longest to stay out? But then why would fair work worse than uair, but uair work better than bair.... This stuff is crazy.

Nice video, good solid proof about what moves to use for DI.

i think ill test this with all the characters i play to figure out what the deal is

if i had to guess i would have to say that all moves may have some momentum abilities even if they are as slight as that and not noticable

Vista · May 18, 2009

Nair is so inconvenient for momentum cancels though cause you have to give up a moment of DI, I can't DI and Nair in succession quick enough out of reaction. So if it better to Fair or Uair? I usually Uair FF everything for momentum cancels, although I will change to Dair for vert.

~ Gheb ~ · May 18, 2009

The move itself doesn't cancel momentum JFYI ... I hope you guys realize that. It's the double jump - and only the double jump - that changes his momentum. You just use an aerial to get out of the stun animation and be able to double jump asap. That's why the best move to cancel momentum is always the one with the shortest overall frame time. In Wolfs case this seems to be Nair.

The reason you die earlier by using nair when being sent vertically is that in Brawl it is possible to die earlier by DIing "too well". In Melee this wasn't possible due to thee shape of the stage but the shape of the death zones in Brawl is actually different. In Melee the death zones had the shape of a rectangle so you always tried to DI to one of the upper corners. In Brawl I think the death zones have the shape of an octagon with the corners being "cut". That means by DIing worse/cancel momentum later you can survive longer because you can avoid the death zone, which is slightly shifted ... it'd be easier to explain with a pic ....

castorpollux · May 18, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
The move itself doesn't cancel momentum JFYI ... I hope you guys realize that. It's the double jump - and only the double jump - that changes his momentum. You just use an aerial to get out of the stun animation and be able to double jump asap. That's why the best move to cancel momentum is always the one with the shortest overall frame time. In Wolfs case this seems to be Nair.

The reason you die earlier by using nair when being sent vertically is that in Brawl it is possible to die earlier by DIing "too well". In Melee this wasn't possible due to thee shape of the stage but the shape of the death zones in Brawl is actually different. In Melee the death zones had the shape of a rectangle so you always tried to DI to one of the upper corners. In Brawl I think the death zones have the shape of an octagon with the corners being "cut". That means by DIing worse/cancel momentum later you can survive longer because you can avoid the death zone, which is slightly shifted ... it'd be easier to explain with a pic ....

This isn't entirely true. There have been plenty of times where i bair and then double jump back, but I end up dying anyways (the momentum continues to carry over to my double jump as well). I've been trying to use nair more in my matches, and it seems to be working better. I believe maybe nair might be the best just caz u can actually DI the nair during it's move and this may cancel the momentum.

JCav · May 18, 2009

Vista said:
Nair is so inconvenient for momentum cancels though cause you have to give up a moment of DI, I can't DI and Nair in succession quick enough out of reaction. So if it better to Fair or Uair? I usually Uair FF everything for momentum cancels, although I will change to Dair for vert.

when you use nair to DI, you arent giving up a moment of DI. as long as you held the correct direction when you got hit. also right after nair comes out you FF anyway so it really doesnt matter

Gheb_01 said:
That's why the best move to cancel momentum is always the one with the shortest overall frame time. In Wolfs case this seems to be Nair.
QUOTE]

thats not true either, if your talking fastest overall move time that would be back air

castorpollux · May 18, 2009

good sht. jimbo. Ur help is always really appreciated =)

Fugu15 · May 18, 2009

This is good stuff.

The reverse aerial blaster gives a huge amount of opposite direction DI. Has anyone tried to momentum cancel using it? It is difficult and probably impractical, but it would be interesting to try.

castorpollux · May 18, 2009

Fugu15 said:
This is good stuff.

The reverse aerial blaster gives a huge amount of opposite direction DI. Has anyone tried to momentum cancel using it? It is difficult and probably impractical, but it would be interesting to try.

doesn't work. Already tried

Seagull Joe · May 18, 2009

who knew the nair would di so good horizontally. dont think anyone thought bout usin the nair for momentum cancelin.

~ Gheb ~ · May 18, 2009

You're right, Jimbo. Bair has less overall frame time than Nair so it should work better. I talked to castor on AIM (he told me bair has the shortest frame time overall) and after talking to him I'm sure my explanation is right either way. The most important point is that you can die earlier by DIng "too good". I'm sure at ~180% bair brings you "accidentally" closer to the death zone because it alters your momentum more than it should in that situation. I explained above why this is the case: Death zones are shaped like an octagon, so the ideal angle to DI is not right in the corner but a few degrees higher/lower. In Melee all death zones had the shape of a rectangle so you always tried to DI into the corner...in Brawl the corner is "cut away" and the furthest distance to travel is a few degrees higher/lower.
If you try it against another move you may see a difference...it might just have something to do with the angle you're sent away at. I'm sure if you use other moves/different DI/a different stage you'll see the difference.

Edit:

This is the shape of Melee death zones:

If you're at the bottom middle of that rectangle the longest distance you can go to is right in the upper corners. In Brawl it looks like this:

The difference is that the upper corners aren't the ideal spot to DI to. It's slightly shifted. As a consequence the kind of DI and momentum cancel you want is not the "best" technically. That's why Nair can save your live better than bair at times even though bair is a better move to cancel momentum.#

BIGM1994 · May 18, 2009

cool vid,imma try those

castorpollux · May 18, 2009

gheb, i still don't see how the octagon shape would matter. When jimbocav DI'd to the corners in his video, he is going along the same trajectory when he nairs or bairs, and yet nair still allowed him to live longer.

Anarchy United · May 18, 2009

If I'm interpreting what you are saying right, it is less of a regular octogan, and more of an square with its corners cut off?

Something more like this?

Sesshomuronay · May 18, 2009

So N-air for horizontal and D-air for vertical?

JCav · May 18, 2009

Fugu15 said:
This is good stuff.

The reverse aerial blaster gives a huge amount of opposite direction DI. Has anyone tried to momentum cancel using it? It is difficult and probably impractical, but it would be interesting to try.

yeah i tested this too and i went towards the blast zone before i started going towards the stage do i actually died earlier

Sesshomuronay said:
So N-air for horizontal and D-air for vertical?

yes.

and @ gheb, when can bair make you live longer?

i see what your saying but whens would the situation be appropriate?

and @ gheb, im still confused

ArcPoint · May 18, 2009

We should test it with different DI. See how long you live with DIing straight to the corner, and then a slightly altered trajectory, one that should either make Wolf live longer or the same amount, when in theory he shouldn't due to supposed rectangular boundaries.

Just a thought. Greatly appreciated, Jimbo.

JCav · May 18, 2009

ArcPoint said:
We should test it with different DI. See how long you live with DIing straight to the corner, and then a slightly altered trajectory, one that should either make Wolf live longer or the same amount, when in theory he shouldn't due to supposed rectangular boundaries.

Just a thought. Greatly appreciated, Jimbo.

how could i do this, i mean what i did when i got hit horizontally was hold straight up, what could my alternative be?

castorpollux · May 18, 2009

JimboCav09 said:
how could i do this, i mean what i did when i got hit horizontally was hold straight up, what could my alternative be?

quarter circle + smash DI?

ArcPoint · May 19, 2009

You could DI slightly to the left or right of straight up, so that it's just below the diagonal part of the boundary.

JCav · May 19, 2009

castorpollux said:
quarter circle + smash DI?

can you do this to a move that only hits once?

castorpollux · May 19, 2009

JimboCav09 said:
can you do this to a move that only hits once?

Yes. Go into training mode with a friend and go to 1/4th speed. Have ganondorf dair u and u can DI like crazy

Kashakunaki · May 19, 2009

It's a matter of DIing while in hit stun.

DI is Brawl is much different from Melee.

Also, you should try air dodging and not just attacks.

I think your video is helpful, but not comprehensive. There seems to be quite a few things overlooked.

JCav · May 19, 2009

Kashakunaki said:
It's a matter of DIing while in hit stun.

DI is Brawl is much different from Melee.

Also, you should try air dodging and not just attacks.

I think your video is helpful, but not comprehensive. There seems to be quite a few things overlooked.

i didnt do air dodging because i totally forgot about it O.o

and i also figured it is always worse than an aerial

and what else do you think we need to test?

WeXzuZ · May 20, 2009

I think that the following picture could explain what Gheb meant:

The black corners are the dead zones of Melee, whereas the red lines are the dead zones of Brawl. This means that the dead zone has been altered so it is now smaller than the old zone.
Furthermore, it also depends on WHEN you are counted as "dead", do you have to touch the line with one part of your character (eg. the feet of Wolf in Bair), or do you have to cross the entire line with your characer (eg. nair)?

The main point is albeit: You need more experimenting for more exact conclusions than just showing how to DI Meta Knights Down Smash. Nice start though - IMHO you just need to experiment with at least one other attack to make observations more exact.

JCav · May 21, 2009

ok i did some further testing.

taking into consideration what WeXzuZ said, i tried a ness back throw because after the throw, it changes directions you should be (ie if you get thrown away from the stage, you would be facing the blast zone and back air would be towards the stage)

and i found the same results, nair was best and back air was 2% below that

sniperworm · May 21, 2009

Perhaps this thread can shine some light on the Nair versus Bair debate.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

In the second paragraph of the "momentum shifting" section it mentions that when you jump, it gives you back all the vertical momentum that you cancelled by fastfalling the aerial. It then goes on to say that this vertical momentum can kill you, but it's unlikely since you're lower because of the FF and your natural falling speed.

So what I'm getting at is perhaps you die from Bair because it ends faster (so you haven't had as much time to fall as the Nair). So Bair could actually be dieing because of vertical momentum instead of horizontal (because theoretically the aerial that ends the fastest should allow you to live the longest horizontally). So maybe if you waited after the Bair and jumped at the exact frame that Nair could first jump, perhaps you could live with the Bair too (although Nair would still be easier).

Now for the vertical kill moves. In that same paragraph, it mentions that you can FF 1 frame after you do the input for the aerial (not one frame after the move comes out). This means that Dair is the best aerial by default (because it automatically makes you FF). And this also explains why all the aerials were so close vertically.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

JCav · May 21, 2009

sniperworm said:
Perhaps this thread can shine some light on the Nair versus Bair debate.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

In the second paragraph of the "momentum shifting" section it mentions that when you jump, it gives you back all the vertical momentum that you cancelled by fastfalling the aerial. It then goes on to say that this vertical momentum can kill you, but it's unlikely since you're lower because of the FF and your natural falling speed.

So what I'm getting at is perhaps you die from Bair because it ends faster (so you haven't had as much time to fall as the Nair). So Bair could actually be dieing because of vertical momentum instead of horizontal (because theoretically the aerial that ends the fastest should allow you to live the longest horizontally). So maybe if you waited after the Bair and jumped at the exact frame that Nair could first jump, perhaps you could live with the Bair too (although Nair would still be easier).

Now for the vertical kill moves. In that same paragraph, it mentions that you can FF 1 frame after you do the input for the aerial (not one frame after the move comes out). This means that Dair is the best aerial by default (because it automatically makes you FF). And this also explains why all the aerials were so close vertically.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

interesting input, however i must say that from my results, using back air i had to delay the double jump. this was for the exact reason you mentioned earlier, you jump and you die.

the vertical part makes sense, thanks for clearing that up

i believe that nair may have some sort of properties because if you SHNair it just looks like wolfs time in the air is... different

Gaki · May 25, 2009

Ehmmmm this is a good example of non combat DI.
This wont help much in actual combat since the circumstances in actual combat are different then this video shows.
Not only that i wish to have a word with you on msn gheb there are some things i want to know.

Other then that nice vid.

How to DI with wolf

Smash Lord

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Legend

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Information

Network