Pit Matchup Discussion - Falco.

Falco

Maniaclyrasist said:

Falco



A guide to Falco for general knowledge

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221988

Click to expand...

Discuss!!!

Here's the thread that the Falco boards had on us, they called it a 55-45 advantage to them.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210623

I don't really know much about the falco match-up, there's only one around where I live.

55-45 Falco as I have supported last year. Falco's CG thing is already a menace, and the blasters are annoying and can slightly overwhelm a Pit.
I'll inform more about this later, got school for now.

im going to have to agree with the falco boards and admiral
they have a more spammable projectile then arrows which disrupts our spamming, plus they have a reflector (the best reflector in the game imo)

we can be spiked, they can have their upb reflected
their Fsmash has been marinated in **** sauce for a few days cause it is amazing

oh and can anyone find the thing about reflecting falcos side b, i could have sworn there was something about that, that would be useful haha


oh and btw, most depressing picture ive ever seen of falco, looks like hes about to shoot himself haha, i like it

I think its right to say that the match up is about 55-45 falco.

When it come to a distance I would say the sides are more tilted in Falco favor, He has less lag on the lazers and reflector than Pit does on pulling out arrows and AR/M-shield. However Falco cant protect himself from arrows from above and under. Falco is much more powerful then pit but Pit has fast hitting multi hit attacks to rack up damage and should know how to space better than most falco players, Pit has more mobility in the air and Im pretty sure Out prioritizes most of falco moves.

Only thing to really watch out for is getting Fsmashed near the edge and the Dair spike(which I think there is no excuse for pit to get caught in offstage). I would defiantly, suggest practicing this match up, because It can be hard if you dont know how to handle it.

I play a lot against falco players and i can tell thet our matches end up in 50-50.
His spamable blaster is a pain in the *** for our set ups, but once his in one there's no espape.

Falco can EK pit, and in the other hand pit can EK falco easly with arrows and fairs.
Reflect shield isn't effective agains phantom, but angel ring does the job pretty good ;]

C ya

falcos favor but im gunna barely call it 45:55 just barely

Falco can outcamp you since he can SHDL into Reflector, which beats arrow camping. You can just pull out your reflectors to eventually make him approach, but that's not really practical. Falco can CG to dair Pit, just like many other characters. Good spacing will probably prevent you from getting grabbed. Also watch out for his piviot grab, it has good range.

I need to test this but I think you can make Falco miss his dair spike if you WoI just before he hits. I pulled this off twice in a friendly and the WoI pushed Falco away and made him miss his dair both of the times. Though it may be the Falco screwing up, I had to say this because it might make this match-up easier for Pit.

Gimping Falco should be easy. What I always do is I shoot a straight arrow when Falco is about my height. He can do 3 things: Airdodge, try to illusion and get hit or use his reflector. Whatever he does, he will fall further down. This prevents him from using Illusion to get on the stage or sweetspot the ledge. Falco will have to use his firefox to recover now. Now he can recover diagonally or vertically. When he recovers diagonally you can go offstage and mirror shield his recovery. When he recovers vertically you can drop down, and do a fastfalled bair to stage spike him (or when you're facing a good player he'll wall tech and you just have to do it again until firefox can't reach the ledge anymore). I'd like to add that Falco can avoid all the above stuff by illusioning above Pit, making him go in freefall mode so you can punish him easily. Hope that helps.


This match up is slightly in Falco's favour imo, like 45:55 Falco : Pit

Nikenick said:

Gimping Falco should be easy. What I always do is I shoot a straight arrow when Falco is about my height. He can do 3 things: Airdodge, try to illusion and get hit or use his reflector. Whatever he does, he will fall further down. This prevents him from using Illusion to get on the stage or sweetspot the ledge. Falco will have to use his firefox to recover now. Now he can recover diagonally or vertically. When he recovers diagonally you can go offstage and mirror shield his recovery. When he recovers vertically you can drop down, and do a fastfalled bair to stage spike him (or when you're facing a good player he'll wall tech and you just have to do it again until firefox can't reach the ledge anymore). I'd like to add that Falco can avoid all the above stuff by illusioning above Pit, making him go in freefall mode so you can punish him easily. Hope that helps.


This match up is slightly in Falco's favour imo, like 45:55 Falco : Pit

Click to expand...

I feel like once I figure this match out it could be 45:55. Currently I'm playing against a Falco I'm quite better than and going 50-50 with him.

This sounds like pretty good gimp advice. I'll be testing it next time we play.

Does anyone have any general advice for the spacing of this matchup?

The lazer and reflector combo take out a lot of my spacing options. I feel like although the matchup is annoying, it's good for me as a player because I tend to use my ground game a lot more than I usually do in this match. Fair is still good, but falco's nair comes out considerably faster than pit's, or it feels that way (I don't have the frame data in front of me). I find myself trying to mess up the opponents spacing going for dash attacks as they land, or inching up to dtilt. Careful with WOI tricks in the air to mess up their timing, full hop to bair or nair comes out extremely quickly if they call you on it.

So yeah. Does anyone have some experience with this matchup, or even just some mixups that works well against Falcos?

Ohhh yeah this may sound silly, but you really have to do all you can not to get grabbed. If you get grabbed early 2nd stock that can completely take away your lead (0-55% anyone?), not to mention your momentum. I've been DIing this up for reasonable results, they have to be very careful with the running CG if you're DIing it up. Anyone else found DI that works against his CG occasionally (I'm pretty sure that if it's done frame perfect there is nothing you can do, but mine as well try).

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Mirror Shield Gimp!
Being a former Falco main, I can say that's what we feared most from the Angel. (Of course, since I'm a Pit main now, I don't have to worry)
I would say to keep this game in the air. If you are in the air, you are more mobile and have more attack options than Toucan Sam.

EDIT: Ok, I lied. Someone did mention it.

So in this matchup what would be better for reflecting, mirror shield or AR?

R@vyn said:

You can only Mirror Shield Falco's Up B. And if you're in a situation where you can MS it then it was probably simpler to just edgehog him. MS is only really useful in this matchup to reflect Lazers.

Click to expand...

i disagree, what if the falco knows you are going for the ledgehog so he just aims for the stage.

MS gives a definite KO, id say it has its uses, even though most of the time the falco will just go or the >b

Afropony said:

So in this matchup what would be better for reflecting, mirror shield or AR?

Click to expand...

Mirror Shield.

teh_pwns_the said:

i disagree, what if the falco knows you are going for the ledgehog so he just aims for the stage.

MS gives a definite KO, id say it has its uses, even though most of the time the falco will just go or the >b

Click to expand...

If Falco has to use Up B, 90% of the time they aren't going to be able to reach the stage anyway, unless its like Yoshi's Island or something. Falco's Up B is pretty bad.

R@vyn said:

If Falco has to use Up B, 90% of the time they aren't going to be able to reach the stage anyway, unless its like Yoshi's Island or something. Falco's Up B is pretty bad.

Click to expand...

yea youre right falcos up b is awful, and the MS gimp will be pretty rare, but still worth mentioning

on a side note cant falcos up b be curved marginally?

teh_pwns_the said:

yea youre right falcos up b is awful, and the MS gimp will be pretty rare, but still worth mentioning

on a side note cant falcos up b be curved marginally?

Click to expand...

yea very very marginally its not really enough to help
and you can reflect the side-b but you have to be right next to him to get it to reflect

I agree, his up B is horrible. I think we should try to pick stages that have wide edges that will make it easier for us to push him AWAY from the stage. Far enough that it will be hopeless for him whether he uses side B or not. And for his side B, I heard this little trick on the ask a question board. Edge hog so he side B's for the stage, then jump and U-air him. And please, try to reflect his Up B and Side B every time. It helps...... ALOT. Although Fox's Up B is easier to deflect with Mirror Shield than Falco's. I think his weakness is his Up B. THAT's where he is vulnerable. I think we should formulate our strategies against him to exploit that weakness. Don't you agree?

sage gave me a great rundown awhile back. Platformed stages even in out a bit. if you can camp the platforms(on BF for example) until your over 40% then you don't to worry about the chaingrab. my rule is stay on platforms untill 30% and away from ledges untill after 40 %. even after that the matchup is a little difficult, but i'd say it makes it less overwhelming

I have alot of falco experience.

I think we are 50- 50

Projectile Outcamping:
Pit can change timing and direction on his arrows so a reflector is not always dependent for falcos.
We can aim behind-above him.
When he lazor camps, shoot an arrow when he jumps curved up, the arrow won't hit you back from reflected.
Or you can jump in between the lazors to and SH shoot when he jumps while in the air. Still not really punishable by reflector.
We can reflect his aerial lazors to punish him, not the ground. With mirror shield of course.
This is how you out camp falco, getting more hits in.

Knowledge:
Cons-
Chain grab to 44 ish
Faster projectiles
Faster attack speed
Reflects arrows
I DON"T KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE BUT APPARENTLY HIS CHARGE F-SMASH POKES SHIELD.
( happened several times testing other character like wario, and luigi, never pit yet)
Heavier
Easy lazor to up-b gimp
Better grab range

Pros-
More Reliable recovery option
Multiple jumps
Manipulative projectile
Stronger Projectile
Better Aerial options
More approach options
Reflector
Approachable reflector
mmm... 19% chain throw? to dash attack or shudder step f-smash.


not sure what else


When Falco finally decides to approach:
His usual options
Nair-
SHAD- We can grab punish him or AAA> infinite to punish his landing.
Dair-
Bair- Predictable if you see him backwards, so Oos something to punish.

Since falco is a faster faller =_=, his short hop aerial dodge is a bit harder to time to punish with a grab.

I hate my friends tech chasing falco to 80+, be sure to tech roll his dair after chain grabs.

Patience on this fight.

Off stage:

When falco is off stage and you know he's going to make it back, a nicely spaced dair works best to me without fail (clings, still hit, or nothing at all)

When he's a bit further you can try an arrow gimp as he tries to level him self with the stage.

If both you and falco are far off stage, you can distance yourself lower than the stage and do an Uair for his side B. Or Fair to punish his late reactions.

The only thing falco really has over pit is his
damage starter> chain grabs.
jab speed. or overall speed.
and grab range

Falco doesn't usually give me that much trouble. Shooting arrows is nice since they are curved and cannot hit you if reflected.

If Pit gets Falco offstage then a good Pit can give him alot of trouble. Pegging with arrows is very easy with Falco since you can predict his Side-B and hit him before he uses it. Plus he is a fast faller so you know where he is going to go. Once you hit him out of his side-B, it causes him to then rely on his up-B which is even easier to hit. Hit him once more and chances are he is done for! ~_^

Plus you have Mirror Shield if you want to get stylish.

^----Basically said also

"Stylish" is starting to sound more pro than cool looking connects.
Ex:
Fair juggles off stage to the boundary is the new stylish combo

This matchup is so gay >_< I have no clue what to do vs the chaingrab. What is the strat. vs that? I will take a look at this ASAP.

Stay by the ledge or on a platform and camp as hard as possible. Till you get to like 44 then you can fight him.

In your oppinion what is the CP that we can use against falco?

Frigate and BattleField IMO.

There's three different stages to this matchup.

Stage 1: when your percentage is less than 40.
Avoid getting grabbed at all costs, a grab not only builds up 60-70 percent damage, but also doesnt use any of falcos kill moves or lasers. This means they are kept refreshed to build up the other 40 percent until you're in kill range. FD should be banned, so any other neutral will have a platform. I suggest staying on the platform and shoot arrows until you've reached more than 40%. If there's an opening (he's trying to nair you through the platform and misses) then punish it. Don't try to do some crazy combo, just one hit at a time should do. If you happen to grab falco, throw him up. He's very vulnerable above you (I normally up throw, fire an arrow up, then follow that with a uair or bair). The trade in damage should be about even if you're arrowing correctly. And it should be in your favor if you got some fairs or grabs in.

2nd stage mid percents (40-110)
Stick to the ground now instead of platforms. You're no longer vulnerable to the grab and if you played stage one right, the lasers should be pretty weak by now. Falcos all have a problem to building into a set pattern of timing (shdl is really easy to read) Every once in a while the falco will side b. If you shielded this and he landed next to you, keep in mind no smash attack will connect (he gets his shield up too fast). In fact, if you smash you will be punished. Use a jab to punish the side b. Arrows fired diagonally up will interrupt the laser. Also keep in mind one arrow does more damage than one laser. So if you keep trading arrows for lasers, you have the advantage. Charging an arrow is really effective as well (so long as you aren't firing it straight). Again just look for simple punishments. Uptilt does really good vs shield because it can shield poke on the top and bottom of the shield. One thing to keep in mind is that you can't force the kill move. Pits kill moves are very punishable so if you throw them out wildly, you will take a ton more damage than needed. Falco can be killed at roughly 125+, but keep firing arrows and playing defensive even when he's at 170. Arrows build in hitstun as the percentage increases. It will set up for the kill moves (same with jab)

3rd stage 110+
Stick to the ledge. It will be very rare that the time limit ever exceeds 8 mins (most tournaments are following the trend to change to 10 mins now) So you really dont need to worry about the ledge grab rule. Especially if you have the stock lead you should be doing this. Falco cant kill pit on the ledge. Even if he's reflecting your arrows back in your face, you're still in kill percent so percentage doesnt matter as much as keeping away from the kill move. Do the usual arrows and up airs to build percent. By this point you can afford to take more damage than you're dealing out, so dont be discouraged if you do. The ultimate goal here is to play with the falcos patience. When you start hitting 200+ percents, he's gonna do anything and everything to kill you (including going off the stage to try and bair you). This is the objective. Punish falco off the stage. He might also retreat to the other side of the stage. This is when you can get back up on the ledge and harass him some more (maybe get in a utilt or grab). He's gonna be looking for that kill move, which is good because it's punishable. Don't fall into a pattern on the ledge, if falco looks like he's creeping in on you, change your timing immediately. This is the same effect as the SHDL. There's vulnerability to it, but the player has to be in the right place at the right time. Don't let that happen.

Thats my two cents on the matchup. Oh and don't worry too much on saving the f-smash, you're not really going to get the early kill + arrows will build most the percent.

Edit: This post is really disorganized because I was throwing the information down as I remembered it. If someone could revise and put into a more organized post that would be appreciated.

Curved, I don't think so. It can, however, be canceled, allowing it to travel a variety of distances.

Put an Uair where he's going to be for a free hit every time he phantasms.

The thing about that is that, a good falco usually saves his second jump just in-case of gimp purposes. Some Spam illusion and usually gets the ledge, or zooms past, us taking the hit.

Against Falco all you need is utilt really.

I somehow managed to beat Kismet in tourney and it was absolutely due to utilt. It has definite frame advantage over his ONE kill move.

Either you hit it first and the Falco eats it, or it clanks with his usmash. Either way you win.

And plank.

WHy are all of you guys so scared of falco's CG? Just shoot yourself with arrows....and gimping falco isn't easy. Why would you guys think that? If you think shooting yourself is stupid then don't get so paranoid about being grabbed. It's the same thing basically as shooting yourself with more setups he can follow through. Regardless this is Falco's favor.

Okay, if I have an arrow looping when I get grabbed, it's probably because I got grabbed while I was looping.

Which means I shouldn't have been looping.

Just pointing that out.

MysteriousSilver said:

Okay, if I have an arrow looping when I get grabbed, it's probably because I got grabbed while I was looping.

Which means I shouldn't have been looping.

Just pointing that out.

Click to expand...

If you didn't get punished within 20 something frames, it your fault for just standing there to get grabbed.

why is falco's SH lazar game becoming easier to get around. I started easily punishing it just by timing his jump then a quick Dair.

Uh, yeah. That's what I was saying.

It's why we shouldn't really consider looping a way to get out of chaingrabs. I mean, if you happen to have one out there, go for it. But the situation shouldn't happen.

Suyon said:

WHy are all of you guys so scared of falco's CG? Just shoot yourself with arrows....and gimping falco isn't easy. Why would you guys think that? If you think shooting yourself is stupid then don't get so paranoid about being grabbed. It's the same thing basically as shooting yourself with more setups he can follow through. Regardless this is Falco's favor.

Click to expand...

Yeah that's not very smart or reliable. Why not be scared of a free 52%?

Esca said:

Yeah that's not very smart or reliable. Why not be scared of a free 52%?

Click to expand...

yeah not to mention in a pefect world he can take you to the edge<spike<footstool making you fly to the other side and then you get PEW PEWED!

pit is way better than falco duude. what you gotsta do here is shoot arrows while jumping on and of the stage, falcos lasers only go straight unlike pits amazing arrows that like curve and ****. nothin is better than arrows man just use arrows alot and ayayayayayaaaaa when he shoots lasers cuz pit has two reflects and stuff and ayayaya has those really cool fast hits and its hard to stop getting hit by no one can handle the ayayaya its the best ever next to arrows

Err... while avoiding the above comment...
I am curious about what stages would be great to use as CPs and Bans. Aside from avoiding Japes (mostly), I need to know what both us and the Falcos can do on other stages. Since Falco is slightly difficult, we would have to prepare for CPs and Bans too. As for gimping, we shouldn't have too much trouble gimping him... well compared to Fox; just as long as we get him below ledge level.

Lylat Cruise would be a good counterpick IMO, the tilting stage prevents them from being able to SHDL as effectively, it could also screw up their chaingrab and stop them from recovering.

Afropony said:

Lylat Cruise would be a good counterpick IMO, the tilting stage prevents them from being able to SHDL as effectively, it could also screw up their chaingrab and stop them from recovering.

Click to expand...

CP: Frigate, Lylat, and Battlefield

BAN: FD,Japes