Stage Selection - A table to counterpicking/banning

I will need input to have this be the best it can be, otherwise it's just going to be based off of my experiences. So if you have input, please provide a good reason why.

NOTE:

There can be more then 1 ban if given enough reason.



Character

Counterpick​

Ban​

Meta Knight

Preference​

Rainbow Cruise​

Meta Knight does stupidly well on Rainbow Cruise - almost everyone knows this and bans it. He can get lucky with uthrow and boom, there goes a stock. Up-B kills at ******** spots and random spots and there are many areas with little room left/right where dsmash can kill you. It is extremely hard for Snake to camp here, and even harder to maintain stage control. It's arguably Meta Knight's best stage, and Snake's worst stage.

For counterpicking, avoid smaller stages like Battlefield and Smashville unless you feel comfortable enough in the matchup. Many people counterpick levels like Final Destination, Halberd, or Pokemon Stadium 1. Large side-stages with generally enough room to camp and relatively medium ceilings for up tilt.



Snake

Preference​

Preference​

It's a ditto match. Enough said.



Falco

Battlefield, Brinstar​

Jungle Japes​

Jungle Japes is one of Falco's best stages due to his Chaingrab to Spike. 1 grab at the right %'s, and you can kiss a stock goodbye. He is also good at camping at this stage and can actually 'plank' to a certain degree using his Side-B (Phantasm) to navigate the stage quickly.

For counterpicks, you want ones where he cannot camp you as badly. Falco has problems killing - it's what keeps him from being one of the best characters. So take away his camping, and there goes a large amount of his game. You still need to avoid the grab at Battlefield, and you want to at Brinstar. But counterpick one of those due to the smaller camp room - and utilt is a good kill move for both levels. At Brinstar, the lava may save you from a Chaingrab > Spike.



King DeDeDe

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)​

Smashville/Final Destination​

Ban your preference of the two because Samurai Panda says so.Evidence



Game & Watch

​

​

Marth

​

​

Diddy Kong

Preference​

​

Samurai Panda sheds some light on this if you just click here.



Wario

Luigi's Mansion​

Brinstar​

_Phloat_ gives great reasons on why to ban Brinstar given In this link.

He also gives good reasons to counterpick Luigi's Mansion (if available) in that same link.



R.O.B.

Battlefield​

Luigi's Mansion / Frigate Orpheon​

Reasons for ban given in This link right here and http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7421991&postcount=12]here as well



Lucario

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Olimar

​

​

Pikachu

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Kirby

​

​

Donkey Kong

​

​

Ice Climbers

​

​

Zero Suit Samus

​

​

Toon Link

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Pit

​

​

Peach

​

​

Wolf

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Luigi

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Zelda

​

​

Bowser

​

​

Fox

​

​

:shiek:
Sheik

​

​

Ike

​

​

Mario

​

​

Lucas

​

​

Ness

​

​

Samus

​

​

Sonic

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence




Pokémon Trainer

​

​

Yoshi

​

​

Link

​

​

Jigglypuff

​

Final Destination​

Ban Final Destination because Samurai Panda says so Evidence



Ganondorf

​

​

Captain Falcon

​

​

Halberd is best CP for MK I think, low ceiling, he can't really abuse the transparent main platform like he can against other characters, nothing about the stage is intrinsically good for him that much IMO. Otherwise I'd take him to FD or a personal preference stage. battlefield is a horrible horrible idea from my experience, I would ban it if RC wasn't legal =(

I don't have much falco experience but just in my mind it seems like frigate would be a good pick, it's a small stage and if you toss him off the right side he has to be very predictable in his recovery which is really bad for falco, I also just really like snake's stage control on this stage in general, not that easy to camp against snake on frigate I think

hmm I think that pokemon stadium 1 would be a good CP against metaknight, also counter pick jungle japes against D3.

edit- so yeah reasons, PS1 is apparently good for snake due to platforms, lowish celing, transformations that allow for easy camping, largish stage allows plently of room and I think its hard to kill off the side? not sure about that last one.
so cping this metaknight means easy kills for snake, hard kills for meta, snake can camp and nade retreat away from meta. something like that.

also for d3 you cant really be chaingrabbed effectivly on japes, you can run away and spam projectiles at him well enough, and you can control the center platform and push him out to the sides and use mortar and nades to keep him from getting back the the center. Also I think (not sure) that D3's recovery is pretty bad when water is involved.

D3 has lots of jumps. I don't think his recovery is so bad in the water...

thnx for doin this Susa...i feel weird callin u that....

Superspright said:

D3 has lots of jumps. I don't think his recovery is so bad in the water...

Click to expand...

maybe not but he is vulnerable, just hassle him with Nikita's or fly up above him and drop c4's down, or if your feeling really lucky you could go for the spike.

Wario...


First and foremost, ban Brinstar. It is Wario's specialty for taking out snakes. He can avoid hits quite well, he works around the open air really well... and he is killing you fairly early, because his dumb, dumb avoidance will be giving him farts. You also won't be killing him as early as you would like, because he can avoid all your stuff here easier than most stages, assuming he knows the stage well.

There isn't a lot to really say, you kinda have to see it in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXm...711357874&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6

And that video is fairly old, there is a lot more to do there... dumb, dumb level. Ban its balls off



CP Luigis' mansion, unless you have a strong preference for some other stage. Snake may not be amazing there, but it hurts Wario soooooo bad. It is an awful stage. He relies a lot upon his ability to drift around and bait snake, and hit him from safe angles, as well as the fact his aerials can be "dropped" on someone, and with correct spacing and timing they will have almost no lag on landing. This doesn't happen at LM. Just get ahead, and make him do an approach against you that will fall short, because he is constricted. Eh, don't let him destroy the stage please. If he takes out most of it, go ahead and finish it off so it all comes back, rather than fighting on a basic FD with a higher ceiling.

Grab release to u-tilt is kewl on the roof, and might as well learn to use it at the higher area of brinstar, although I have no idea how one would grab a Wario there.

Meta Knight
MK match up is prefrence really I'd say. Any stage you could possibly pick would still be pretty neutral for snake. Player and stage experience should be the CP I believe. But for generic purposes, FD is probably the best choice. Most neutral of all matches.

Falco
JJ should always be the first ban and after that FD should JJ be banned from the tourney which is occasionally.

Rob
You should ban Luigi's Mansion. Lasers go through the columns while snake's grenades cannot. Really out camps you here.

King Dedede
Ban Delfino. Too many infinites and CG to death chances on this stage. Castle Seige could be an alternative to ban as it has a segment that can be CG to the blast zone and KOed.

Olimar
CP Norfair. Plenty of space to roam and avoid the grabs olimar has along with messing up his

Diddy
Ban FD banana lock and no platforms for snake to retreat too. Anyone try brinstar as a stage to CP against diddy? I thought it helped us and messed up diddys bananas a lot.

Nic64 said:

Halberd is best CP for MK I think, low ceiling, he can't really abuse the transparent main platform like he can against other characters, nothing about the stage is intrinsically good for him that much IMO. Otherwise I'd take him to FD or a personal preference stage. battlefield is a horrible horrible idea from my experience, I would ban it if RC wasn't legal =(

I don't have much falco experience but just in my mind it seems like frigate would be a good pick, it's a small stage and if you toss him off the right side he has to be very predictable in his recovery which is really bad for falco, I also just really like snake's stage control on this stage in general, not that easy to camp against snake on frigate I think

Click to expand...

Frigate is decent for Falco. He's a fastfaller, and the cieling is pretty high normally. He also has enough room to camp one side. I would prefer to take him to Brinstar/Norfair.

I would agree with the MK thing, but it really comes down to preference.

luke_atyeo said:

hmm I think that pokemon stadium 1 would be a good CP against metaknight, also counter pick jungle japes against D3.

edit- so yeah reasons, PS1 is apparently good for snake due to platforms, lowish celing, transformations that allow for easy camping, largish stage allows plently of room and I think its hard to kill off the side? not sure about that last one.
so cping this metaknight means easy kills for snake, hard kills for meta, snake can camp and nade retreat away from meta. something like that.

also for d3 you cant really be chaingrabbed effectivly on japes, you can run away and spam projectiles at him well enough, and you can control the center platform and push him out to the sides and use mortar and nades to keep him from getting back the the center. Also I think (not sure) that D3's recovery is pretty bad when water is involved.

Click to expand...

MK + Air Planking/Playing at PS1 = GL. That stage is retardingly good for a planking MK. And there are 1 (or more) transformations that makes planking really easier. The only advantage is yes - killing off the side is relatively larger then most other stages. Again - it's prettym uch preference.

I do believe he can CG you in the center part, and ftilt. That hits you up under the platform, 'spikes' you into the water, and if you're on the left side you're pretty much dead. Not 100% of this, our Utilt is practicely useless here and it becomes "who can camp better and get a lucky ftilt in (Snake) or bair (D3)" although I'll keep this in mind.

__crystal____ said:

Meta Knight
MK match up is prefrence really I'd say. Any stage you could possibly pick would still be pretty neutral for snake. Player and stage experience should be the CP I believe. But for generic purposes, FD is probably the best choice. Most neutral of all matches.

Falco
JJ should always be the first ban and after that FD should JJ be banned from the tourney which is occasionally.

Rob
You should ban Luigi's Mansion. Lasers go through the columns while snake's grenades cannot. Really out camps you here.

King Dedede
Ban Delfino. Too many infinites and CG to death chances on this stage. Castle Seige could be an alternative to ban as it has a segment that can be CG to the blast zone and KOed.

Olimar
CP Norfair. Plenty of space to roam and avoid the grabs olimar has along with messing up his

Diddy
Ban FD banana lock and no platforms for snake to retreat too. Anyone try brinstar as a stage to CP against diddy? I thought it helped us and messed up diddys bananas a lot.

Click to expand...

Points taken, will be added.

_Phloat_ said:

Wario...


First and foremost, ban Brinstar. It is Wario's specialty for taking out snakes. He can avoid hits quite well, he works around the open air really well... and he is killing you fairly early, because his dumb, dumb avoidance will be giving him farts. You also won't be killing him as early as you would like, because he can avoid all your stuff here easier than most stages, assuming he knows the stage well.

There isn't a lot to really say, you kinda have to see it in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXm...711357874&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6

And that video is fairly old, there is a lot more to do there... dumb, dumb level. Ban its balls off



CP Luigis' mansion, unless you have a strong preference for some other stage. Snake may not be amazing there, but it hurts Wario soooooo bad. It is an awful stage. He relies a lot upon his ability to drift around and bait snake, and hit him from safe angles, as well as the fact his aerials can be "dropped" on someone, and with correct spacing and timing they will have almost no lag on landing. This doesn't happen at LM. Just get ahead, and make him do an approach against you that will fall short, because he is constricted. Eh, don't let him destroy the stage please. If he takes out most of it, go ahead and finish it off so it all comes back, rather than fighting on a basic FD with a higher ceiling.

Grab release to u-tilt is kewl on the roof, and might as well learn to use it at the higher area of brinstar, although I have no idea how one would grab a Wario there.

Click to expand...

Yah, I know of the stupidity of that stage for us and how Wario plays at it. I wanted to pull my hair out. Ban that stage to oblivion and beyond. Also I think LM is banned from some tourneys, so we'll need another stage.









Can someone provide me with a tier list (if you read this within 5 minutes or less) so I can just go ahead and make all the characters in tier list order?

A tier list?

SS Tier
Meta Knight

S Tier
Snake

A Tier
Falco
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Marth
Diddy Kong

B Tier
Wario
R.O.B.
Lucario
Olimar

C Tier
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Peach
Wolf

E Tier
Luigi
Zelda
Bowser
Fox
Sheik
Ike

F Tier
Mario
Lucas
Ness
Samus
Sonic
Pokémon Trainer
Yoshi

G Tier
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

You're too slow!


Finishing updates I've been given and doing the write ups. Feel free to correct anything I say.

The best stage to CP MK to is totally dependent on a) your playstyle and b) your opponent's playstyle. Campy Snakes (like Anti, etc.) will want to take MK to large stages like FD. Pressure Snakes (such as myself, Ally, etc.) prefer smaller stages like Halberd or BF. Also, knowing the stage helps quite a bit. Hunger and I don't ban RC against MKs because we simply don't lose on that stage to them. Experience (or in my case, pure theory put into practice) on RC can make it a surprisingly good Snake stage against MK. But if you're not confident there, then ban it for sure.

FD is a fairly good stage for Snake against Diddy. Fighting Diddy is all about controlling his bananas, and Diddy can grab bananas on platforms much easier than Snake can. Ninjalink and I discussed this at Apex, and we both agree that FD is certainly not Diddy's best stage in the matchup.

Ban FD against Sonic/Wolf/Luigi/Pikachu/Jigglypuff/Toon Link/campy Lucarios.

Ban BF or Pirate Ship (if its legal) against Ike.

Ban Frigate against ROB. Take him to BF.

Ban SV against D3, although preference (or FD) could also work here. Take him to BF. Yoshi's also works if you plan to platform camp him. I'm experimenting with Brinstar in the matchup.

Ban Japes against DK. Take him to somewhere smaller, like BF/Yoshi's/SV/Halberd.


Thats all for now. I'd go more in depth as to why for each character but I should get back to studying.

EDIT: Colors can really help the OP be more readable. Its kinda hard to see what is what right now.

When you say why - edit your above post. Since I linked to it multiple times in mine. (I'll edit "because SP says so" later when you provide data =p )


I'll edit the FD/Diddy part... (I figured it was because I was facing a bad Diddy. :x but I actually beat him several times on FD but was dominated on Battlefield...)

SuSa/Havokk, to get the sheik head you have to spell it "shiek" even though that's the wrong spelling.

I didn't even realized it wasn't there. Thank you SOLID.

SuSa said:

I do believe he can CG you in the center part, and ftilt. That hits you up under the platform, 'spikes' you into the water, and if you're on the left side you're pretty much dead. Not 100% of this, our Utilt is practicely useless here and it becomes "who can camp better and get a lucky ftilt in (Snake) or bair (D3)" although I'll keep this in mind.

Click to expand...

hmm well I've never played any super pro d3's here, and I agree with the stuff you've said, but I think as long as you can shut him out from the center you should be fine because once he's out on a platform you can keep him them with mortars, nades, nikitas and nair and stuff.

also uptilt doesnt really kill here so it should instead be used as an anti air move.

basically camp center and create a wall between the center platform and wherever d3 is.

against ddds I prefer IMO Battlefield , in my country Norfair is legal so this is a good stage for that matchup.

SuSa said:

I didn't even realized it wasn't there. Thank you SOLID.

Click to expand...

No problem.

Also, this looks really good, it'll be interesting to see once it's finished.

:sniper:

Cp Fd on G&W.

So I hear we need more reasons.

G&W I would think you would want to avoid any stage that has small blast sides. Green Greens come to mind. His smashes are too powerful if you get hit by one early. Plus, the stage is relatively small and if you do not control the stage he will by preventing Snake from landing back down easily.

Olimar, CP Norfair. Norfair ruins any game he might have with camping and grabs. You can hop around easily dropping Nades, C4s, nikitias and mines relatively safely. Lava adds some free damage to Olimar. All it takes is one Uair or fresh utilt at 120% to kill him off. Gimping him will be harder though because he has access to more ledges, but it's just so much easier to deal with olimar here than on other stages where you have to beware of grabs all the time.

pit, ic, oli, zss, bow,dk, marth

in my experience:

diddy: ban the crap out of smashville. the platform makes it easy for him to pull out two bananas, which effectively control more than half the stage. there no room to move at all. give me fd anyday. i typically cp bf or lc, which screws with his ledge game and has a number of really awesome platforms.

rob: ban luigi's or fd, cause he camps too well there, send him somewhere where he has to stay close, like bf, lc or sv.

mk: i generally pick norfair and havent lost there yet hahaha but i know thats not what youre supposed to do. fd works better than anything else i suppose.

sonic: ban rc, cause hes really gay on that stage. he can recover from anything, and his bair is as broken as most. send him to japes, cause it really restricts his spin approaches.

falco: ban japes and/or pictochat, unless you wanna get *****. somewhere small and flat, like sv or bf.

I think BF is a bad choice against ROB, his platform and air pressure are more dangerous than his camping to snake if you ask me. 22% uair, two of his kill moves can punish landing lag, if he can't reach you in time with those he can usually get an fair in, why would you want to pick a stage against him that lets him stay underneath you more? I'd take FD over BF against ROB in a heartbeat, more room to camp doesn't mean anything, a couple of walking/running shields and you're there.

for sonic I think norfair offers that same advantage as japes but doesn't have the high utilt destroying ceiling

I may have overlooked this but what is a good stage to take TL to? and kirby? plus what should i go for when banning stages against either of those characters?

I never lose on Frigate Orpheon as Snake, Panda. But I detest Battlefield.

So you're doing this...

If there is EVER an occassion you battle a Yoshi,
ban Rainbow Cruise, or any stage that will stop you from spamming ftilt, utilt, and grenades, because that's all you'll need to win against Yoshi.
Also, Rainbow cruise will let Yoshi easily take advantage of his godly horizontal air movement.

Eternal Yoshi said:

I never lose on Frigate Orpheon as Snake, Panda. But I detest Battlefield.

So you're doing this...

If there is EVER an occassion you battle a Yoshi,
ban Rainbow Cruise, or any stage that will stop you from spamming ftilt, utilt, and grenades, because that's all you'll need to win against Yoshi.
Also, Rainbow cruise will let Yoshi easily take advantage of his godly horizontal air movement.

Click to expand...

Have you ever faced a yoshi that spamz ta eggz? It's not that simple to spam the stuff.

For G&W, you should ban Rainbow Cruise, G&W does exceptionally on this stage because of his aerial mobility and high killing power . For counterpicking, just go with the stage you do best on, It doesn't really matter. I prefer stages without a lot of platforms.

shmot said:

in my experience:

diddy: ban the crap out of smashville. the platform makes it easy for him to pull out two bananas, which effectively control more than half the stage. there no room to move at all. give me fd anyday. i typically cp bf or lc, which screws with his ledge game and has a number of really awesome platforms.

Click to expand...

Really? I'm good at Smashville against Diddy's. I guess I'm just naturally good at that stage, lol.