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What I'm up to as far as researching Samus' Metagame

LanceStern

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
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San Diego, CA. (619)
So I've been sitting around trying to test out some things for Samus. We really need to try our hardest and advance her metagame. A lot of characters keep finding new things and Samus seems to be LOCKED down. Like the developers did everything possible to keep her unadvanceable.

I've been sitting and pondering some matchup strategies and trying to break Samus. It's been a tough journey but we'll find something if we put out minds together.

Things I've been working on:

NEW STUFF/Discoveries

-FINISHED-U-tilt / Forward Smash / Bair Killing Percentages-FINISHED-
+ I've been really slow and lazy on this but I've started getting the data for this. The U-tilt and Bair are some SWEET killing moves depending on where your opponent is positioned, and something we overlooked. I just wish we could find a way to remove the lag from U-tilt and hit the bair sweetspot.

+ Something crazy. We knew that when you tilt forward smash either up or down it does more or less damage. What's crazy is if you tilt forward smash up, even though it only does 1% more damage than the non-tilted forward smash, it has significantly more knockback than it, killing the opponent up to 10% damage earlier. A fsmash tilted up can kill opponents at the same percentage as a plasma shot.

+ On the contrary, forward smash tilted down is probably one of the worse killing moves for Samus. It kills 10% LATER than a nontilted fsmash or more, has significantly less knockback and does 1% damage less

+ the bair also kills at absurdly low percentages, in some cases the same as (or earlier than) a plasma shot.

Super Missile
+ With that said, I'm still working on a super missile setup to the bair. If you shoot a S. Missile no more than maybe half the distance from the opponent, run after it and immediately pivot sh bair. If the missile hits and you do the bair IMMEDIATELY, you WILL hit the sweetspot. Looks cool, does great damage. Even if you miss the missile or the bair, you still have a little bit of options in the air, you're spaced enough to not get punished too bad.

Charge Shot Cancel
+ This is nothing new but something to think about. Throw in a charge shot cancel -> jump -> shoot the charged shot in your game every now and then. It throws off an approaching opponent. (Input is B, shield, jump, B)

OOS Up Smash
+ Don't think I've ever seen people use or mention this, but it's probably known. You can Up Smash out of the shield, and what's cool is it usually puts the opponent in at least 3 of the flames hits. It's definitely not as fast as OOS Screw Attack and the latter should always be used, but if the opponent doesn't expect it and doesn't DI right, all the upsmash hits will get them.

Raigoth Bomb Tech
+ Guys this thing is legit. I noticed in his video how he does a Hyphen Smash out of the MBB, and I had trouble running out of a MBB. What's cool is when you do a Hadoken Motion (Down, Down-forward, Forward) you'll 99% of the time run out of the MBB into whatever you want. Only thing is you have to do the hadoken motion the same direction you laid the bomb in order to run out of the MBB, or else you will buffer a pivot, which could be just as good)
+ My options that are good out of it:
- Running Pivot Grab (Throws them off. MBB and run then immediately pivot grab)
- Up Smash (Really useful. Makes the opponent think Samus has that super wavedash from Melee)
- Shield dash -> smash
- Run, pivot, jump and plasma shot (Really good mind game)

If nothing else, the MBB covers your behind.

I have videos for the effectiveness of OOS Upsmash and the Raigoth-Hadoken technique, but no way to get them to anybody.


PREVIOUS STUFF
Air Release
+ I've found you can force an air release on short characters. It's safe to do it when they are over 45% or else they could ground release. Anytime you do a running grapple, their feet are off the floor and they air release. So far I've done it to Pikachu and Metaknight.
+ Another way to do it is to regular grab them and pummel them. I pummel once and then their feet are off the floor. You can then follow up with a plasma shot or SHZair or anything your heart desires.


Ledge Tactics
+ Sitting in training mode working on using Samus' wall jump abilities to help her edge guard. A ledge-hopped wall hop -> anything like zair or dair or plasma shot can be really tricky and throw the opponenet off.

Matchups
+ I was thinking about a different way to handle the Metaknight Matchup. since he's so much faster than us, I was just thinking about barraging him with fair and nair to keep him off of us until he is at killing percentages. Think of a Marth camping a Jigglypuff in Melee, that's how I see it. Then finish him with the Dtilt or air release to plasma shot

FINISHED-Dtilt data-FINISHED
I'm halfway through collecting dtilt data on Final Destination. at what percentages it and the plasma shot kills. I'll post what I have and then continue. If someone would be kind to help correct / reinforce the numbers that would be awesome.

That's what I'm up to
 

LanceStern

Smash Lord
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I've been trying to mash A and up and jump for MK, but he's not getting out.

1. Grab Metaknight and force an air release (either the running grab, or pummel him)
2. When he air releases, AS IMMEDIATE AS POSSIBLE (as soona s Samus is able to move) double tap toward his direction and running grab him.

Timing is ridiculously tight. I tried just running normally and grabbing him and it doesn't work. I have to double tap the run. And it can't just be a real quick double tap, you need a certain distance on the first tap so that the second running one reaches him fast enough. It seems MK has a lot of air release stun. Hope it works with REAL testing.

EDIT: It works up to a level 7-8 computer. Level 9 seems to have that nanosecond reaction time to escape =( ... let me know what you find
 

Crystanium

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EDIT: It works up to a level 7-8 computer. Level 9 seems to have that nanosecond reaction time to escape =( ... let me know what you find
I'm sorry to break it to you, but it won't work on an actual human. When I was in Training Mode, messing around with Zero Suit Samus and trying out a chain-grab on Meta Knight, I had my brother use Meta Knight, and I tried chain-grabbing him. It didn't work. Strangely, when myRoboticClaw did this to DSF, he was unable to escape. Zero Suit Samus' grab can grab characters in the air. With Samus, this doesn't work. Samus doesn't have a chain-grab. The day anyone finds out that she does, you're more than welcome to say, "You were wrong!"
 

LanceStern

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I'm sorry to break it to you, but it won't work on an actual human. When I was in Training Mode, messing around with Zero Suit Samus and trying out a chain-grab on Meta Knight, I had my brother use Meta Knight, and I tried chain-grabbing him. It didn't work. Strangely, when myRoboticClaw did this to DSF, he was unable to escape. Zero Suit Samus' grab can grab characters in the air. With Samus, this doesn't work. Samus doesn't have a chain-grab. The day anyone finds out that she does, you're more than welcome to say, "You were wrong!"
I don't get it. Like when I air release metaknight, I am jamming the jump button and nair to see when he can react, and he only reacts as soon as he hits the floor. And he jumps when his feet almost touch the floor.

A 7-8 comp can't get out, but level 9 can. What is with the discrepancy?

So close. Waiting for final verdict. At the very least I can surprise some people for 1 or two matches.
 

Metatitan

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probly the first thing we should look into would be bombs. no1 really uses them that much because apparently they are horrible, but ive been using them and having good luck with them. IMO they are like a really ****ty version of snake's grenades. if ur charged shot is fully charged and ur opponent is a decent distance away, why not set one up in front of you or on a platform to make their approach a little more awkward?
 

LanceStern

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probly the first thing we should look into would be bombs. no1 really uses them that much because apparently they are horrible, but ive been using them and having good luck with them. IMO they are like a really ****ty version of snake's grenades. if ur charged shot is fully charged and ur opponent is a decent distance away, why not set one up in front of you or on a platform to make their approach a little more awkward?
Check out the topic: "Morph Ball Bomb Discussion" We've been trying stuff there too. And n00bs been trying even before that. Add some stuff too.


And my goodness, if MK had like 1 milisecond more stun on his air release it woul dhav ebeen a guranteed chain grab. Looks like if you MASH A if just barely escapes =(.

On a good note, we can surprise people with it for a good half a match or two. They are FORCED to jump, and you can hit them with the charge beam shot. If they don't jump, you can chain grab them.
 

n00b

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lingering weak nair knocks back just enough for good stuff

also a good gimp as you can dj to zair

hits behind you so youre a bit safer

cancels out snakes upsmash if done correctly

can mash after aerials to trade hits

its aiight
 

Rohins

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I'm in the process of moving so I cant test right now. Those of you who can (vs a human)

can you land dash attack after grab release vs:
MK, Pika, Lucas ?

If anyone can confirm or refute let me know.
 

SuSa

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I will test that tomorrow for you.

PS:

Snake can grab release > dash attack MK

I'm going to test Pika and Lucas - because if you think you can you probably can.

*needs to see Samus's and Snake's dash attack hitbox frames...*


EDIT:

snake dash attack:

Dash Attack
5 - First hitbox?
11 - Last Hitbox
2 - IASA
51- end frame

Samus:

DASH ATTACK: Hits on frame 8. Ends on frame 42.



That's a 3 frame difference. You may be able to because the hitboxes are different. I'll go ahead and test when I can.
 

LanceStern

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There's new stuff guys on the original post. Let me know what you think.

Dryn, how wowuld I get the topic to update without having to bump it like this?
 
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