BSL (Bull **** Lag)

HiddenBowser · May 28, 2009

This isn't exactly a new discovery and many people already know about it, but for those of you who don't:

SCOTU said:
There is a mechanic that has a "flag" in memory that is set to "on" whenever one of a set of moves (iirc, only moves that can put you in helpless can, but not all do) is performed. The next time you land, the flag is set back to "off" and it has the additional effect of making that landing no able to be interruptible via IASA frames. This goes both for interrupting aerial landing lag, and normal landing lag. It's especially bad for normal landings (and autocancels, since they just give you normal landings), since instead of the IASA 2, and 5 you're used to for a soft/hard landing (soft landing = not fast falling from a height less than or equal to your full jump height; hard landing = fast falling or falling from higher than your full jump), you can't interrupt it, meaning you'll take the full 17 or 29 frames of normal landing lag.

Just remember: It's not lag in itself; it doesn't generate any lag, it just makes you take the the full lag from other sources. It's kinda like AIDS it doesn't kill you by itself, it just makes you extremely susceptible to other ****.

To clarify: Basically if you use one of these moves and snap to the edge, the next time you land on the ground, you're going to have 17 or 29 frames of landing lag unless you attack into the ground, in which case you'll have that amount of lag. Unless your move auto cancels, in which case you'll have the 17 to 29 frames of lag.

Anyone who's still confused should pick marth, up b to the edge, and then jump up and land on the ground. The landing lag should be noticeable.

Characters that are affected by BSL after Up B:
Marth
Mario
Luigi
Pikachu (only if the 2nd part is used)
Squirtle
Charizard

Characters that are affected by BSL after both Up B and Side B:
Falco
Fox
Wolf
C. Falcon
Ganon

*Credit goes to SCOTU for the info and Levitas for writing **** down for me during testing

Dantarion · May 28, 2009

Isn't this known as the triple jump glitch?

Kitamerby · May 28, 2009

I didn't know it worked for certain characters. I could've sworn the list used to be shorter...

Lemon? · May 28, 2009

I had no idea it affected the 2nd part of pikachu's quick attack... That explains why a friend of mine couldnt do QAC properly sometimes, ill have to tell him

Browny · May 28, 2009

Sonic's air trip is probably the same thing

and lucario has a strange glitch where if you use a grounded upb and never leave the ground, you cant upb again until you land. funnily enough though this is fixed by c-sticking up like you do with IDC during the extremespeed

Kewkky · May 28, 2009

If I'm understanding this correctly, Kirby has the same thing after he uses sideB (both in the air and ground), downB (both in the air and ground), or upB (after cancelling on the ledge), then landing on-stage... He gets landing 'lag', even if he lands without a freefall state.

In the kirby boards, they call it "phantom lag", since it only appears after those attacks. We usually cancel out most of the lag with a fast aerial, like Kirby's nair.

xDD-Master · May 28, 2009

Is there a video

?

I dont understand it :S

Kewkky · May 28, 2009

xDD-Master said:
Is there a video ?

I dont understand it :S

So as you may know there are some attacks that cancel when you land, right? You use an attack, and as you land, you get no langing lag with the attack, right?

Well, there are some attacks that when you use them, you DO get landing lag and you have to suffer a buttload of frames without being able to do anything except wait for the animation to end... And you still get the landing lag, even if the attack finishes and you're still airborne.

Grab Kirby, whenever you get to play the game again. Jump a couple of times, and notice how whenever he lands, you can do absolutely ANYTHING without any kind of landing lag. Now, jump high up and use sideB in the air, then land after the attack finishes, and try to do anything while your landing. See how you can't do anything and you suffer a buttload of lag?

Matador · May 28, 2009

Isn't this just RCO lag? Meaning when Marth or Mario uses their upB to grab the ledge from offstage, then whenever they decide to land onstage, they suffer the ending lag of upB if they land. That's what what I'm hearing anyways.

It's annoying, but can be dealt with by using an aerial to land instead of normally landing to replace the upB landing lag with one of your low lag aerials of your choice.

TP · May 28, 2009

Matador said:
Isn't this just RCO lag?

Yes. I'm not sure why a thread was just made about it, since I'm sure there are multiple ones before it.

We have analyzed Ganon's RCO lag in great detail. We have found ways to reduce it and to make it change the lag after some things to LESS than the standard amount. We're that awesome.

HiddenBowser · May 28, 2009

Sounds like the RCO lag. I made a new thread cause there was no mention of this in the Guide to AT's and Glitches and there aren't any threads talking about it in the last month or so. People miss opportunities to take advantage of this way too often, probably cause they don't know, so I put this in a new thread so it's easy to see.

Lemon? said:
I had no idea it affected the 2nd part of pikachu's quick attack... That explains why a friend of mine couldnt do QAC properly sometimes, ill have to tell him

It doesn't affect being able to QAC, but if you QAC it doesn't count as landing so the next time you land after QAC'ing, you're going to have BSL or RCO lag or whatever it's officially called.

.AC. · May 28, 2009

djbrowny said:
Sonic's air trip is probably the same thing

and lucario has a strange glitch where if you use a grounded upb and never leave the ground, you cant upb again until you land. funnily enough though this is fixed by c-sticking up like you do with IDC during the extremespeed

sonic´s air trip is unrelated 2 this,this has been known 4 a whike just that no one had bothered two explain as much.

Matador · May 28, 2009

Twilight Prince said:
Yes. I'm not sure why a thread was just made about it, since I'm sure there are multiple ones before it.

We have analyzed Ganon's RCO lag in great detail. We have found ways to reduce it and to make it change the lag after some things to LESS than the standard amount. We're that awesome.

Aside from replacing the RCO lag with aerial lag?

TP · May 28, 2009

Matador said:
Aside from replacing the RCO lag with aerial lag?

Ganon can't do that. None of his aerials autocancel and all have at least 16 frames of lag. Instead, we drop from the ledge and then use side B to get back to it since it has less RCO lag than Up B, and we then side B to the stage because this causes side B to have 8 frames of lag instead of its standard 16.

demonictoonlink · May 28, 2009

No comprendo...

1nconspikuous · May 28, 2009

Twilight Prince said:
Ganon can't do that. None of his aerials autocancel...

? i thought all of ganon's aerials can autocancel (except for the fair). isn't that what thunderstomping and uair>fsmash buffering is about?

Lemon? · May 28, 2009

Bowyer said:
It doesn't affect being able to QAC, but if you QAC it doesn't count as landing so the next time you land after QAC'ing, you're going to have BSL or RCO lag or whatever it's officially called.

Riiiiight, ok then

Matador · May 28, 2009

Twilight Prince said:
Ganon can't do that. None of his aerials autocancel and all have at least 16 frames of lag. Instead, we drop from the ledge and then use side B to get back to it since it has less RCO lag than Up B, and we then side B to the stage because this causes side B to have 8 frames of lag instead of its standard 16.

I see. That would mean that his sideB suffers RCO lag too, you're just exchanging the 16 frames of upB for the 8 of sideB?

I have to see if Mario can do something like this.

TP · May 28, 2009

1nconspikuous said:
? i thought all of ganon's aerials can autocancel (except for the fair). isn't that what thunderstomping and uair>fsmash buffering is about?

There are 2 definitions of autocancel floating around. The lag of Ganon's Dair does not get canceled, it's just that the move is completely over before he hits the ground. The strict definition of autocancel is the animation gets cut short by landing but there is no landing lag. None of Ganon's moves meet that definition.

HiddenBowser · May 28, 2009

demonictoonlink said:
No comprendo...

I edited the OP to clarify it. Look right after the SCOTU quote.

demonictoonlink · May 28, 2009

Thanks a lot! That makes perfect sense now ^^

Magus420 · May 28, 2009

Twilight Prince said:
There are 2 definitions of autocancel floating around. The lag of Ganon's Dair does not get canceled, it's just that the move is completely over before he hits the ground. The strict definition of autocancel is the animation gets cut short by landing but there is no landing lag. None of Ganon's moves meet that definition.

SH d-air autocancels. If it were completely finished you would be able to doublejump out of it. The AC window doesn't need to be large/very noticeable for it to exist.

TP · May 28, 2009

Magus420 said:
SH d-air autocancels. If it were completely finished you would be able to doublejump out of it. The AC window doesn't need to be large/very noticeable for it to exist.

Well, at any rate, it does not get rid of the lag this thread is discussing.

Luigi player · May 28, 2009

Ahh, I had a feeling Luigi has some lag when he grabbed the ledge during upB... but I wasn't sure. Squirtle has this too?

This **** sucks, but good to know, so I can think about something to avoid it... (and punish my enemies if they have it =D)

ZeonStar · May 28, 2009

More reason for me to feel happy about switching to Brawl+

Remzi · May 28, 2009

this is mad old, but extremely frustrating for marth users as we definitely get it the worst.

what he is basically saying is this:

If you use your up b with marth for example, you will experience significant landing lag. Normally, this lag goes away if you grab the ledge using your up B, but for the moves listed above, your next landing on the ground will cause you to receive the up B landing lag. You can negate this by using an aerial as you land.

HiddenBowser · May 28, 2009

ZeonStar said:
More reason for me to feel happy about switching to Brawl+

lol, overreact much?

BengalsRZ said:
this is mad old, but extremely frustrating for marth users as we definitely get it the worst.

It's mad old, but that doesn't change the fact that not enough people take advantage of it when the opportunity arises.

Bellioes · May 28, 2009

Yeah I actually didnt know this.
Thanks for posting. It was really helpful.

Crizthakidd · May 28, 2009

how exactly do we take advatage or how does it work against/ for us

Remzi · May 28, 2009

Crizthakidd said:
how exactly do we take advatage or how does it work against/ for us

If someone else suffers the landing lag you can punish. If you suffer the landing lag, you can be punished. That's really it

sniperworm · May 28, 2009

I knew exactly what this thread was about as soon as I say the title.

BengalsRZ said:
this is mad old, but extremely frustrating for marth users as we definitely get it the worst.

We've been referring to it as "Marth lag" where I'm from, lol.

BSL (Bull **** Lag)

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Hater

Uhh... Look at my status.

Smash Champion

Uhh... Look at my status.

Maybe Even...Utopian?

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Maybe Even...Utopian?

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Maybe Even...Utopian?

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Ace

formerly VaBengal

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

formerly VaBengal

Smash Ace

Information

Network