Olimar Matchup Discussion

Ken Neth · May 29, 2009

Use this thread for the discussion of the Olimar/Snake matchup.

Discuss

The Milk Monster · May 29, 2009

I have played a fairly experienced Olimar, and Olimar is quite a pain to get around.

A lot of his stuff shuts any attempt at an approach down, and due to his camping, he sort of forces you to approach in a sense, he's hard to outcamp, he can hit you fairly easily out of your up b with a lot of his moves, and at the beginning of the match, if he gets a grab off, he gets almost a free 30ish% through down throw, up smash, and up air, with the right pikmin.

Though his light weight makes for an early kill, easily gimp able, and it takes him a decent amount of time to kill you. Most of Snakes moves destroy his Pikmin, and they are easy to get off once attached. Watch out for the freaking up smashes with Yellow's though, that stuff sends you SOARING almost too quick to DI it.

I'd say it's 60:40 Olimar at absolute most.
MAYBE 55:45, but it doesn't seem high enough.

-Ran · May 29, 2009

- All of his moves have near zero priority. When up close, utilize your Jab, or even a short hop dair.
- Olimar has a horrible roll and get up attack. Tech chase the hell out of him.
- You must establish long range superiority with cooked grenades.
- Land mines are short of useless in this match up. They are only worth it at the edges of the stage.
- SDi out of his uair or you'll be comboed.
- With good SDI none of his initial 'combos' work due to being multi-hits. Experiment. Olimar's blind spot is his back side.
- Edgeguard with surprise bairs/uairs. Olimar doesn't have the means to attack while being hit off the edge. He needs to use every second to get back on the stage.

Eternal Yoshi · May 29, 2009

I think 45:55 Olimar is more appropriate.
Remember that Snake will live longer than Olimar and for the most part, Snake's ftilt out ranges Olimar's ground attacks. Watch out for his grab.
Oh, and his roll is worse than Yoshi's.
As far as I remember, you should note the order of the Pikmin. It influences what Olimar will do next.
Only Purple and Red Pikmin can KO you under about 140%. The exception is the Blue Pikmin's back throw.
White ones are very flimsy but rack up a lot of damage when latched on or used in a grab.

The Milk Monster · May 30, 2009

Yeah that's what I figured, I just didn't think it seemed high enough.
Olimar should try to avoid approaching Snake, just try to camp him and make him approach you.
Yeah exactly right about the Pikmin, certain Pikmin do certain things.
I think Blue are for grabs, Red Yellow Purple for KO's, White for grabs and over b's, IIRC.

Plasma Pikmin · May 30, 2009

I think that Oli vs. Snake should stay 60-40 Oli. Oli can outcamp Snake, and Reds really help with that. Snake's Ftilt can be grabbed out of with Whites/Blues. I'm not too sure if Snake has any moves that can get off White Pikmin easily. Snake should be the one approaching, and with our grab range, that won't be too hard. Blue/White grab can beat your Jab. You do live forever, so we can't really kill without Purples or Blues. Reds can Fair, but not too often. You do outprioritize us easily though unless we have Yellows.

The Milk Monster · May 30, 2009

If the Olimar camps correctly, and spaces the Snake to hell, it should be a 60:40 Oli.
Jab gets most the pikmin off, or utilt.
If the Olimar approaches a Snake, he's playing the match up wrong IMO.
Yellows completely destroy our priority.

Dabuz · May 30, 2009

65-35 olimar, easily, olimar can just destroy snake at anything, snake has no ground approach because our pivot grabs+fsmash wreck all you ground approaches, he out camps snake easily, any air approaches can be stopped way to easily, we out range snake, olimar can just smash or shield grab everything you have at close range(except for grab) we can EASILY get 0-70% on you with a grab and good grab chasing, we out prioritize snake, our whistle armor can stop every kill move snake has snake can't edge guard us, heck, we can edge guard and gimp snake better then he can to us, honestly, idk how oli loses to snake, but thats just cause i have a lot of experience in this matchup, once olimar learns it he can beat snake way to easily, idk any way a snake can beat an olimar that knows how to utilize this stuff unless the snake knows how to shield pressure olimar to make approaches, which is still hard

Panix · May 30, 2009

eh 60:40 but i'm leaning towards 55:45 in oli's favor.

Dtilt is a good way of getting pikmin off, it's a bit laggy but dtilt isn't something thats slow enough to get punished with. dash attack is an amazing approach, just lob a gernade and run in with a dash attack to protect your dash.

Utlit is amazing, KO's extremely low against oli. And Tech chasing is something that can destory an oli, just wait for the get-up attack. if he gets up regrab, if he rolls foward just f tilt, if he rolls back just f tilt (d-throw+f-tilt = 33)

Oli destroys your approach with pivot grabs, but if you have a nade where your about to attack it's safer.

Eternal Yoshi · May 31, 2009

Uair is the best move to use to get Pikmin off of him if Snake's saving his utilt.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 31, 2009

Best method for getting pikmin off of you is to Utilt if I remember correctly, but it does stale the Utilt. ~~I have never tried the method of Dtilt, but if it's just as good as Utilt at getting pikmin off/killing them, then I would say we finally found a decent use for the Dtilt.~~ Dtilt really only kills one pikmin at a time.

Snake fails horribly at approaching Olimar, but if you can get olimar to approach instead it's not so bad, but it would probably require you do be at the best of your grenade camping abilities. To start off with you would want to camp on the very edge of a stage because in order for olimar to throw pikmin that far he has to jump which hopefully some might get thrown over the each and miss. Once there just camp.

To kill olimar with Utilt (fresh, proper DI, on FD), if I recall, is to hit olimar with it after 115%.

I'm not really sure how to take on this match-up. I feel more likely to try a stab at camping than to try to approach something that is extremely difficult to approach. Besides think of it like this, pikmin thrown cannot kill (apart for purps), so and grenades can. But is the damage you will likely take compared to olimar, would it really be worth it....

At any rate, advantage to olimar 60:40.

Anyone tried running offstage and throwing grenades and camping that way to force an approach? It would seem very tempting I would think for olimar mains to try to get in close.

Nic64 · May 31, 2009

Approaching olimar is stupid, I'd just camp him because even if he outcamps you, his camping can't kill you, your camping can kill him. If you approach him and get killed first, it turns an already ridiculous uphill battle even more against you. My thought anyway, I'm really bad at this matchup and I would almost always opt to play another character against olimar...

I feel like the matchup is 65-35 Olimar but I'll say 6:4 to be conservative on that, stages...I hate lylat and BF for this, I think I'd ban one of those, probably BF...personally I don't think any stages are particularly good against olimar but maybe something unusual like RC...haven't actually tried that stage on an olimar and it's not normally snake's top pick either but his recovery is more exploitable there and his camping is pretty much horizontal...

The Milk Monster · May 31, 2009

Doing the run off thing can be risky, cause if he tries to approach you and he hits you with a yellow(iirc, could be another one) dair, maaaaan you're boned.
Against an Oli I almost always ban Green Greens(If It's Legal), and if not, Battlefield, but usually against an Oli I pick Frigate, it's worked out decently for me in the past.
Personally though, I find this to be a very difficult match up for Snake.
I was going to say to avoid grabs, if you see him approaching, shield drop a nade, but what good will that do, he'll pull you away from it.
Just don't get grabbed I suppose.

Jman77 · May 31, 2009

I don't understand why this matchup is heavily in olimars favor... his grabs are easily punishable after spot dodge aren't they?

The Milk Monster · May 31, 2009

Well, if the Olimar is playing the match up correctly, he will make the Snake approach him, and out camp him until he does such.
So he grabs rarely.

Eternal Yoshi · May 31, 2009

Are there ANY videos of a good Snake fighting against a good Olimar? It would help since Olimars are hard to come by in my region.

TwentyTwo · May 31, 2009

Eternal Yoshi said:
Are there ANY videos of a good Snake fighting against a good Olimar? It would help since Olimars are hard to come by in my region.

I'd like to see this myself, I have a good olimar in my region but I haven't gotten around to playing him yet. Last match I saw with him, he lost to our top Snake, Candy. That's irrelevant though, iirc, if you're within a certain range and they grab you while doing an ftilt won't the grab break because olimar doesn't have super armor on his grabs?

Ken Neth · May 31, 2009

The only snake/oli matches I've seen were the recent AiB ladder finals where Dabuz completely wrecked Ally.

I know it's wifi, and a lot of things are different with lag, but wifi matches between the two top players on the ladder are better than nothing IMO, even if it is only wifi

Kly · May 31, 2009

Anyway we really need to work on how to deal with that matchup.
It seems that no one really know how to beat Oli, some say we should camp, other say we should be agressive...

Imo, we have to mix grab to "perfect?" tech chase on Olimar which is hard enough and dash attacks.
Maybe the second hit of Ftilt can hurt, i don't really know.
Also when the Snake has a chance to edgarde the Oli, he needs to do it perfectly FTW.
I think the Snake needs to be offensive because if he becomes defensive, he won't be able to deal with his nades and the pikmins and the oli will just come to get the final grab, with his range, it will be easy.
By being offensive, the Snake still have to put his setup, C4, maybe throw nade to outcamp a bit when he is attacking to punish a mistake.
I don't know if the mortar is a viable option.

I think it's 65-35 if the Snake doesn't know the matchup like us and the olimar does.
But if the Snake knows how to deal with and plays well on edgarding, tech chase, dashs and setups, imo it would be around an even matchup.

Ally vs Dabuz was wifi matchs like you said.
On wifi Olimar looks way more unwinnable with Snake but it's my opinion ^^.

SuSa · May 31, 2009

The tech chase is pretty easy because Olimar has a horri-bad roll. You can ftilt/dair him if you just shield no matter what AFAIK. Also it makes it easy to tech chase him if you find his pattern. (Everybody has one.. even the truly 'random' ones do..)

When you edgeguard, there are 2 ways.

A) Olimar can recover without use of up-B

Edgeguard like most any other character. Make sure to have placed a C4 at least (mine is optional in another spot) and maybe even a grenade. You can go for a bair or nair to hit him further away and just continue this.

B) Olimar must use his up-B to recover (to tether the stage)

This is where I really do suggest you practice teching. Olimar is as good as dead at this point, but he can stage spike you with his up-B, which is what he will try and do so just practice teching this and don't tech until you see the up-B. This can kill you at 70%~ if not prepared...

For camping, they actually go pretty even. When you see Olimar jump to throw his pikmin, immediatly DACUS. He cannot grab you and that's all you really need to be afraid of (besides fsmash/usmash but that's also grounded) and after your close, don't give up. Spam utilt to keep him airborne if need be. Just don't let him get to the ground. If he tries to whistle your utilt, immediatly jab > ftilt

I recently got a ton of WiFi experience in this matchup (finding Olimars... and getting ***** by them but slowly closing that gap) and a little bit of offline experience playing as Olimar

55:45 Olimar IMO. He can make a few more mistakes then Snake (simply because he can cover a lot of them up with a grab) and if he grabs you there goes 55% and you're closer to dying.

Not as bad as the 60:40 I thought it was. Hell, it may even be a 50:50...

Kly · Jun 1, 2009

I mostly agree with Susa.

Olimar is really deadly if you don't know him.

Dabuz · Jun 1, 2009

susa, the problem is, that assuming you are fighting an olimar that isn't good at recovering and avoiding gimping, if you fight one that doesn't suck at it your strategy will fail, oli can di+sdi up so he will be able to either get on the stage off the bat or he can upair you near the stage and hit you away, also, our super armor can just stop your explosives then we recover

for camping, olimar can just shorthop throw ONE pikmin or space so he doesn't have to jump to throw pikmin and your whole camping idea goes out the window, also, if we shorthop and you try to dacus approach us we can easily just fair you out of dacus if we time right, i have a lot of experience and knowledge in this matchup and its easily a very one sided match if the olimar knows all this

before you talk about olimar's offstage game you might wanna talk about how to get him offstage first, because just that is a huge problem for snake

also, susa, what olimars on wifi did you fight?

SuSa · Jun 1, 2009

I used to main Olimar and I still use him with simply 2 pikmin.

The being forced to use up-B to recover doesn't happen often but it does happen.

Also your SA will get you through our explosives but it lasts long enough to be able to punish. IIRC it's 6 frames between each whistle we can punish. If we layed projectiles and you whistled to avoid those, then we can bair/uair you during those frames.

If you SH and throw one pikmin, we simply jab it away. That is inneffective for you and we don't DACUS approach.

Some random ones, no one notable; and also my friend who'm like me plays basically everyone....

Rather then saying '**** this I'm going Olimar as well' I just learned my options and what I can do.

Still in Olimar's favor, but not so off-matched as I thought.

Dabuz · Jun 1, 2009

SuSa said:
I used to main Olimar and I still use him with simply 2 pikmin.

The being forced to use up-B to recover doesn't happen often but it does happen.

Also your SA will get you through our explosives but it lasts long enough to be able to punish. IIRC it's 6 frames between each whistle we can punish. If we layed projectiles and you whistled to avoid those, then we can bair/uair you during those frames.

If you SH and throw one pikmin, we simply jab it away. That is inneffective for you and we don't DACUS approach.

Some random ones, no one notable; and also my friend who'm like me plays basically everyone....

Rather then saying '**** this I'm going Olimar as well' I just learned my options and what I can do.

Still in Olimar's favor, but not so off-matched as I thought.

hhhhmmmm...good logic with the 6 frames stuff, but the problem is, if we whistle armor your attack, offstage it would mainly be used, you cannot jump quick enough and do a bair before we can get a whistle armor off again, also, if you jab after we do one shorthop pikmin throw, then that means we were close enough to get you which means we are able to quickly run in and grab you by the time the jab is done if we time our shield right, so that doesn't help either, and it is possible if olimar fastfalls quick enough to double jump, fastfall backwards and barely hit you with our fair out of your dacus, or just whistle armor into pivot grab/ bair

the fact of the matter is in this match, snake cannot camp olimar and he can't let olimar get into a good camping spot, your best bet is to try and force us to shield your nades and then dacus while we are shielding the explosion because your dacus hits us out of shield wen its low from nades, but even then, its really hard to set that up against good olimars and you will a lot of damage before you do that anyway

try finding some more notable olis who know this matchup so you can see why a lot of what your saying won't work

SuSa · Jun 1, 2009

If you spam whistle, or we think you are going to use it again. We just wait to bair.

Also if you threw a pikmin at us, if it was white/yellow 1 jab would hit it off. It's like 11 frames, your landing lag + time it takes to grab is way worse then that. I didn't saw all 3 hits of the Jab, just the first punch would do.

If you aren't within reach of hitting us with side-B, we don't do crap. That's pretty simple, yes? We could throw a few grenades if you're trying to camp us from THAT far away.

You're starting to assume the Snake player is by far an idiot and makes a mistake on EVERYTHING. (And yes I know you ***** Ally on WiFi <3 lol)

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 2, 2009

Since we have Dthrow stuff, should that get factored in more so than it is now?

SuSa · Jun 2, 2009

It's already factored in a ton.

It's just more common knowledge and in some cases easier to know now.

Dabuz · Jun 2, 2009

ok, if you just do the one frame jab we can keep throwing more pikmin, your jab won't be able to get all pikmin off, either way, there is no way for snake to get all pikmin off AND not leave himself vulnerable for most of this matchup, because if you start to keep using one sec jabs olimar can just run forward, then pivot grab before your in range to jab us because that will be expected, and from there, olimar wins with a grab

and you have to realize if we expect a bair we can wait till we see it coming and whistle then, so instead of your punishing our ending lag we punish your startup lag

and yes, i do believe every snake is an idiot in a way because they always make dumb mistakes, even though a few are from wifi, still, many make plain stupid mistakes anyway

crystal: yesh, we understand the grabs, but the problem we are talking about is approaching and camping right now, if snake can get close enough to grab oli...

nevershootme · Jun 2, 2009

SuSa;7513466 Also if you threw a pikmin at us said:
there are latch spots where jab cannot take off a pikmin

Dabuz · Jun 2, 2009

nevershootme said:
there are latch spots where jab cannot take off a pikmin

yeah, top of head, back, and legs

napZzz · Jun 2, 2009

dabuz said:
ok, if you just do the one frame jab we can keep throwing more pikmin, your jab won't be able to get all pikmin off, either way, there is no way for snake to get all pikmin off AND not leave himself vulnerable for most of this matchup, because if you start to keep using one sec jabs olimar can just run forward, then pivot grab before your in range to jab us because that will be expected, and from there, olimar wins with a grab

and you have to realize if we expect a bair we can wait till we see it coming and whistle then, so instead of your punishing our ending lag we punish your startup lag

and yes, i do believe every snake is an idiot in a way because they always make dumb mistakes, even though a few are from wifi, still, many make plain stupid mistakes anyway

crystal: yesh, we understand the grabs, but the problem we are talking about is approaching and camping right now, if snake can get close enough to grab oli...

logic like that means all olimars are stupid in a way too and make dumb mistakes we can capitolize upon.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 2, 2009

I still say that camping is the best tool to combat Olimar with for these reasons:

1) Snake has no reliable approach methods.
---Any ground approach is beaten out by Pivot Grabs/Grabs.
---Aerial approaches are just dumb

2) Olimar camping does not cause any knockback to snake (apart from purple pikmin). Our grenades can kill more easily than olimar can with camping and cause knockback.

3) The biggest reason to camp is that once olimar takes reasonable damage, he will have taken enough knockback that we can rush in with a Mortar Slide and try to keep juggling olimar. Basically to make sure he never gets a chance to land back on the ground again.

4) With this Olimar is more likely to approach us than simply trying to camp. And with olimar approaching, Snake has an easier time combating olimar than if snake tried to approach.

So in short, I say it's best to camp till olimar approaches or he has taken enough knockback from a grenade for us to rush in safely and try to juggle him.

If we do this I would say the match-up is in Olimars favor still, but 55:45. If we are doing the approaches 60:40/65:35 olimar.

Dabuz · Jun 2, 2009

-NaPPy said:
logic like that means all olimars are stupid in a way too and make dumb mistakes we can capitolize upon.

exactly, every character, heck, every person makes stupid mistakes that can be capitalized on as well

crystal: ok, try camping olimar and see what happens, even if you camp, olimar when needed can just start spacing ourselves while approaching pushing you back giving you less room making you more punishable until we kill you, what crystal said about getting olimar high in the air and juggling with nades is the only good approach, but getting that opening is hard and getting out of snake juggle isn't too hard, but yeah, using nades to pop olimar in the air when we can be killed is your best bet

and i will maybe agree with 60:40 but this matchup is most likely 65:35

napZzz · Jun 2, 2009

dabuz knows what he's talking about. When it comes down to it it looks like this

1.Olimar outcamps snake in every possible way and while snake can fend off pikmin with jabs or whatever he's not getting anywhere staying away and getting **** thrown at him
2.Pivot grab ruins every approach snake has and is pretty much impossible to punish when spaced right
3.This whole grabbing him to start up damage thing is very difficult and doesn't mean much because tech chasing isn't reliable anyways
4.Referring to 2 a grab is pretty much easy damage for olimar on a fatty like snake, its almost like falco's chain grab.

/waits for disagreement and flaming

Dominic · Jun 2, 2009

i don't quite understand why everybody say pivot grab ruins aproching. dodge it ? if you misstime dodge you get grab maybe juggle bah then try again,suceed and your in, get a ftilt 21% life is good . If dodge is expected then AT grab or something. Then try to balance all that and get lucky. we all know that no ?

nevershootme · Jun 2, 2009

despite all things said, if olimar gets the 1st grab, it's 40% to snake. snake can catch up with 2 sets of f-tilts or a mixed bag of combined attacks.

I've played this matchup on both ends under high level play, and I'd say it's 60-40 pending player skills and experience. In both views, this matchup is a game of survival and landing the kills efficiently leading down to the wire. precision is important for olimar as is for snake, any missed grab from olimar spells a f-tilt eating. any missed f-tilt and jab -> f-filt spells a simple smash attack or grab to push away.

both characters have their own reliable methods of killing, olimar's n-air -> d-smash or u-smash. or snake's u-tilt. this matchup is less frustrating as oppose to mk anyways,

Xiammes · Jun 7, 2009

dabuz said:
65-35 olimar, easily, olimar can just destroy snake at anything, snake has no ground approach because our pivot grabs+fsmash wreck all you ground approaches, he out camps snake easily, any air approaches can be stopped way to easily, we out range snake, olimar can just smash or shield grab everything you have at close range(except for grab) we can EASILY get 0-70% on you with a grab and good grab chasing, we out prioritize snake, our whistle armor can stop every kill move snake has snake can't edge guard us, heck, we can edge guard and gimp snake better then he can to us, honestly, idk how oli loses to snake, but thats just cause i have a lot of experience in this matchup, once olimar learns it he can beat snake way to easily, idk any way a snake can beat an olimar that knows how to utilize this stuff unless the snake knows how to shield pressure olimar to make approaches, which is still hard

I completely agree with this, its defiantly 65:35 matchup, but I say its more then that.
Its impossible to get a good olimar off the ground or pikmen less.

Tero. · Jun 8, 2009

Olimar is extremely anoying if they know their stuff.
You can't fight them on the ground and you can't fight them in the air.

Olimar outcamps Snake so you'll have to approach and every good Olimar will counter your approaches with Pivot grabs, they simply outrange you.

A little thing I tried is approaching while holding a cooked nade.
If they grab you the nade explodes and blows the Olimar up (if you have the higher port).
There you got him in a vulnerable position.

If you grab him you'll be fine since his roll is bad and you can easily tech chase him or try to get him offstage with f/bthrow and edgeguard.

Overall probably 60:40 Olimar.

Lawlmahbawls · Jun 8, 2009

Oli is an absolute ***** to Snake.

You basically start off at 40%, one grab = that in combos.

You can nade out of the dthrow-up smash - up air combo after the d throw, but you still end up taking 37% albeit dealing 12 to the oli.

Oli's fatty upsmash kills the same or even lower percent than Snake's up-tilt, not to mention the fatties are extremely annoying when thrown, often giving the oli a free grab. As stated before, d-throw tech chasing really hurts Oli, as does staying in his face and basically spamming f-tilt. You can f-tilt before you are grabbed if you happen to do at at the same or slightly slower than the Oli's grab. (like a few frames slower) This will cancel the first hit and give you a free f-tilt again.

Also edgeguarding Oli is CRITICAL, you must put everything you got into keeping Oli off the stage. I like setting a c4, pop a mortar and edgehogging, this covers most of what the Oli can do. Your options are then to get up, bair him (if he used second jump, that's a stock), b reverse a nade up or just hang.

Also once you hit the 150% mark, camp. Don't even worry about the pikmin, they will just fall off you at this point and you won't take any damage. (unless fatties) This is a crucial point of keeping away from Oli's blue/fatty throws and fatty smashes, you can easily catch up with some careful camping and punishment at this point since Oli's camping game is now useless.

I probably have the most Oli experience out of any Snake posted here so far lol, and I still hate and can't fully get the matchup yet.

TheLastCacely · Jun 13, 2009

how do i edge guard him with snake? i try to uair and dair, but he just whistle armors and gets back on da stage.

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