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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Falco
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Zelda sucks.
Just Kidding, I don't know much about the match-up. I played Snakee's Zelda before and I noticed that Shiek is a big part of this match-up. Zelda's OoS Neutral-B is broken from what I remember. Also staying on the ground is key for Falco, as well as staying at a mid distance to not get camped.
I don't have any experience to put any numbers in this or make any detailed breakdowns.
Just Kidding, I don't know much about the match-up. I played Snakee's Zelda before and I noticed that Shiek is a big part of this match-up. Zelda's OoS Neutral-B is broken from what I remember. Also staying on the ground is key for Falco, as well as staying at a mid distance to not get camped.
I don't have any experience to put any numbers in this or make any detailed breakdowns.
MrEh could that possibly be you?
I agree about Sheik, I believe she can get through his camp game much easier. I've heard of Zelda --> Sheik transformations actually for this matchup to avoid the chaingrab. I've never done this myself. Did Snakeee ever do this? And can you remember any of your matches with him at all like if he went solo Zelda?
Purple
Hi guys!
i wish i could tell you guys to go sheik, the f-til lock is amazing on falco. I know a sheik/zelda player who tend to use sheik for this matchup and a few others. However for zelda i would say play risky.
Use din's fire to shut out side b recoveries, and put falco where you want him (in front of you after a side-b, for a good forward smash/down smash.
Lasers can still lock you out pretty well, doing SHSL whenever you reflect is lagless so he can not be punished from his own laser, and your reflector has lag so that gives a bit of time for him to close the gap.
Watch Falco's habits. if he shdl while you're close by take it to advantage and punish him before he reaches the ground. Never go out to gimp falco unless he only can clearly side-b (or up-b) to the ledge and nothing else. Most of the time you should stay back and let din's fire do the gimp work or better put falco right in your face (as previously mentioned).
This match you'll probably be playing pretty safe. His jab shut out a great deal of your close up game. But I think your d-tilt to forward smash will help quite well for spacing.
Keep your U-tilt fresh for kills off the top.
That's all i can think of
it makes me sad, you guys (Kataefi) were the first to post in the falco boards for a while.
Use din's fire to shut out side b recoveries, and put falco where you want him (in front of you after a side-b, for a good forward smash/down smash.
Lasers can still lock you out pretty well, doing SHSL whenever you reflect is lagless so he can not be punished from his own laser, and your reflector has lag so that gives a bit of time for him to close the gap.
Watch Falco's habits. if he shdl while you're close by take it to advantage and punish him before he reaches the ground. Never go out to gimp falco unless he only can clearly side-b (or up-b) to the ledge and nothing else. Most of the time you should stay back and let din's fire do the gimp work or better put falco right in your face (as previously mentioned).
This match you'll probably be playing pretty safe. His jab shut out a great deal of your close up game. But I think your d-tilt to forward smash will help quite well for spacing.
Keep your U-tilt fresh for kills off the top.
That's all i can think of
it makes me sad, you guys (Kataefi) were the first to post in the falco boards for a while.
Hawks go Caw
Smash Ace
Zelda: (Din's Fire)
Falco: Ohz crap! (Reflect)
Zelda: (Din's fire passes up Falco and hits him from behind)
Falco: Ohz crap! (Reflect)
Zelda: (Din's fire passes up Falco and hits him from behind)
Zelda can out camp Falco pretty easily. If Falco tries to SHDL from a distance, just have Zelda use her neutral B move and reflect both the lasers back. In this matchup, Falco is the one making the approach. Zelda's neutral B move also stops lots of approaches as well such as dash attacks and fast falling aerials. A typical Falco approach is SHDL or SHL to dash attack. Zelda's neutral B reflects both lasers and hits Falco while in his dash attack.
All in all, coming from a Falco main, this matchup is very annoying.
All in all, coming from a Falco main, this matchup is very annoying.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Sounds a lot like me. XD
This will never happen.
If Zelda is within far enough distance to safely use Din's, Falco can laser her. :/
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
unless we're on mansion. I don't feel like this is a matchup we should be winning most of the time. But it doesn't feel awful either
*hides in shadows*
*hides in shadows*
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Feels close to neutral to me. I don't know what direction anymore, though I lean to 50:50.
Of course, I'll wait for "those who matter" to talk about the actual fight.
Of course, I'll wait for "those who matter" to talk about the actual fight.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Falco's lasers are ****ing irritating and, if he's on a camping friendly stage, he's gonna be a hell of a problem to deal with. But at least his recovery options out of Dsmash are horrid.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
This matchup is not even. Falco camps Zelda hard and Zelda has no good approach on him.
Falco's Jab>Zelda's moveset
Falco's Jab>Zelda's moveset
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
eh... the camping part is true, but the jabs being better than her whole moveset seems suspect. How do you mean?
MrEh
Smash Hero
It comes out on frame 2, has huge range, and bogus priority. Oh, and it's safe on block as well.
In short, it ***** Zelda up close.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
so if we saty out of his jab range and PS his lasers how does the match up look?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
.... it looks like it's not a matchup that'll actually be happening.....
I know how great it is, but it's only great up close. I understand he was exagerrating for the sake of emphasis, but even then that sounds a bit too forceful.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Just to note a few things:
*Falco's Dair does not clink w/ uptilt. Most of the time they trade hits, which is ok since it sends you to the ground and Falco in the air. Depending on the angle, up-tilt can beat dair. Most of this is situational so I don't suggest relying on this to beat out dair.
*Up-tilt beats his side-b. This is a way to kill Falco. If the Falco side-bs back to the stage, bingo.
*Laser spam is hard to beat, but you have Nayru's. You also have to remember that Falco can reflect back so be careful. To beat laser spam I suggest air-dodge, spot-dodge, powershield(if possible), and din's in between the spam just to keep Falco from out-camping.
More later
*Falco's Dair does not clink w/ uptilt. Most of the time they trade hits, which is ok since it sends you to the ground and Falco in the air. Depending on the angle, up-tilt can beat dair. Most of this is situational so I don't suggest relying on this to beat out dair.
*Up-tilt beats his side-b. This is a way to kill Falco. If the Falco side-bs back to the stage, bingo.
*Laser spam is hard to beat, but you have Nayru's. You also have to remember that Falco can reflect back so be careful. To beat laser spam I suggest air-dodge, spot-dodge, powershield(if possible), and din's in between the spam just to keep Falco from out-camping.
More later
MrEh
Smash Hero
That would be nice, except Naryu's is useless against a laser spam. It's a terrible way to stop camping.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Does Nayru's do more harm than good?
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Depends.
Where on the stage and when are you going to use Nayrus?
Where on the stage and when are you going to use Nayrus?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Let's say he's doing SHDLs or whatever they're called, and let's say the distance is from the center of FD to the edge. I SH and see the first one, so I hit B. Would Nayru's be of any use at this distance?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
also somewhat depends on if the reflected laser(s) hit(s) falco.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Lol I even clearly stated that Falco can reflect right back.
Castle Siege is your cp. Great stage that limits laser usage. 1st stage, you can duck on the right side to avoid all lasers.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
What is a Zelda to do against his side b? When used in close quarters it is not easy to see coming and if he goes through you he is usually too far away for zelda to do anything in retaliation because she is too slow. His side B is the hardest part of this matchup for me...
When you use Nayrus jump first so that you can reflect the high laser and the low one, that way if he tries to do it again and begins to jump he will be hit by both of them.
When you use Nayrus jump first so that you can reflect the high laser and the low one, that way if he tries to do it again and begins to jump he will be hit by both of them.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
zelda's lingering hitboxes will pretty easily rip him out of Phantasm. Her other moves can too, but they are harder to time.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Falco's lasers are used to try and force you to lag so Falco can do things to you. So make sure that you take your time while approaching and don't let him bait you into anything silly (like a midrange spotdodge or roll into him) with his lasers.
Falco frame data is pretty vague when it comes to the sideB, but it says that it hits on frame 17 (I'll assume you have until frame 19 because Falco has 3 spots he can cancel the sideB (1 frame each) and maybe he's really far away). That being said, it'd be really hard to punish a sideB with Utilt when you include reaction time. I would probably punish with Usmash or Dsmash because they're faster.
Unfortunately there was no exaggeration. Falco's jab absolutely destroys Zelda's ground based moves. In terms of pure range, it outranges her whole grounded moveset except for Fsmash and Ftilt (it barely loses in range to Ftilt). However, because of the speed of Falco's jab (and the lack of speed on Zelda's Ftilt and Fsmash), it easily beats out Ftilt and Fsmash at any range where they could actually reach Falco (because of the way that Zelda executes these moves). This includes spacing so that only the absolute tip of the last burst of her Fsmash will hit. Falco's jab eclipses all of Zelda's moves in terms of speed and it's unpunishable on block except by a frame perfect Usmash OoS (but that's only if he spaces it really poorly) due to Zelda's poor grab speed and the potential for Falco to use his second jab.
Zelda's Utilt has transcendent priority and doesn't "clink" with anything.
Actually, many of Zelda's moves can beat out his sideB. Any smash, Neutral B, and sideB are all things that consistently beat out his sideB if timed correctly. However, the timing on many of them is not practical.
Falco frame data is pretty vague when it comes to the sideB, but it says that it hits on frame 17 (I'll assume you have until frame 19 because Falco has 3 spots he can cancel the sideB (1 frame each) and maybe he's really far away). That being said, it'd be really hard to punish a sideB with Utilt when you include reaction time. I would probably punish with Usmash or Dsmash because they're faster.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
won't our transcendent priority beat it out if he whiffs it?
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I'm not sure I understand the question. If he misses than of course you could hit him, transcendent priority or not.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I just mean: yeah, his jab is amazing because of how much range and speed it has, so, if he's close, he's probably going to beat us out unless we can get a Dsmash in while he's got cooldown lag from something else, but people were talking about how his jab almost has the range of our Fsmash and Ftilt.
If he's going to try to use jab at that distance, there's a good chance that we may be too far away for him to hit us and then a lot of our attacks will just eat through it. right?
If he's going to try to use jab at that distance, there's a good chance that we may be too far away for him to hit us and then a lot of our attacks will just eat through it. right?
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I'm pretty sure we should assume that Falco's know how far their jab reaches.
That being said, if he does miss with a jab, it ends on frame 16. That's possible to punish (he moves forward a little while executing the jab too), however I'm not sure if we'd be able to reach Falco with anything in that small of a time frame (if he missed with a jab, we'd most likely need to punish with Ftilt, Fsmash, or dash attack). Also be aware that the second hit of his jab combo hits on frame 10 (so 8 frames after the first jab would've hit) and reaches even farther than the first jab.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
doesn't dash attack come out rather quickly?
MrEh
Smash Hero
There's no denying that Falco's jab can be punished.
The problem is that it's hard to do it. And not worth the risk. At all.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
we're freaking Zelda.
if we don't take risks, we're going to lose. I mean, we'll probably still lose even if we DO take risks, but at least we have a shot if they pay off.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Fixed for you.
Zelda is a defensive character, if we take risks, we get horribly horribly punished, and kittens die. Think of the kittens.
But seriously, your objective with Zelda should be to be as safe as possible.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Zelda is not about playing defensively. She gets camped to hard for that. She's about sticking to a character like glue and letting well placed high priority hitboxes rip through foes defenses.
if the foe whiffs anything, we kinda need to try to exploit that opening. Falco is GOING to outcamp us, so if we don't exploit openings and get him off of his game, it's just going to be a long, depressing battle in which Falco's going to wear us down enentually.
I suppose in the sense that she relies on reaction to start something, she's defensively orientated, but zelda doesn't have the tools to sit it out defensively.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Playing reactively and exploiting openings IS playing defensively.
The thing with that is, Zelda gets punished too hard to go for risky openings.
That said, at the top of the metagame, dash attack is frame 6, Falco's jab ends at 16, that leaves you wil 10 frames to react and punish. If you're close enough, go for it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah, but in any matchup where she gets camped this hard, she can get punished MORE for a wait-and-see method. She shouldn't take stupid risks, but a risk has a chance of paying off. If it fails, she'll eat some damage. If she just waits for a better opening, she'll DEFINITELY eat damage from lasers and such while she's waiting.
I wouldn't take risks like that when zelda has high enough damage to be KOd, but when she's fresh, she's gotta try something.
and dash attacking a missed falco jab shouldn't be too big of a risk anyway. And the payout will probably be quite nice due to dash attack trajectory putting falco somewhere where we'd rather have him.
Why not?
She can sit on the other side of the stage if she wants. Nayru's Love. Not the best reflector, but it does the job.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
"If you're worried about lasers than change to another character."
-sniperworm
It doesn't really matter what non neutral you take him to he's still gonna out play you. Even if you managed to erase his lasers he still enough options to beat you.